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[maharg]

If they get one of these machines, they'll revoke the machine's signature's validity on new machines (and possibly on older ones through flash updating). It will probably work pretty well, aside from making things a pain in the ass for normal users.

 

[gblues]

The foundation of the Blu-ray content management system, AACS(1), is a state of the art content management system that is many times more powerful than that used in DVD. Additionally, AACS enables new consumer usage models around network functionality and internet connectivity including managing copies, in an authorized and secure manner.

Translation: We've increased the encryption key size and added new ways to enforce DRM.

In addition to AACS, the BDA took a dramatic step in the battle against mass production piracy with the adoption of ROM Mark. ROM Mark, which is unique to Blu-ray Disc, is a new technology designed specifically to thwart large scale, mass production piracy, a problem that experts estimate costs the movie industry alone in excess of $3 billion per year in lost revenue. To combat this, the ROM Mark technology embeds a unique and undetectable identifier in pre-recorded BD-ROM media such as movies, music and games. While invisible to consumers, this ROM Mark can only be mastered with equipment available to licensed BD-ROM manufacturers, essentially preventing unauthorized copies of a disc.

They did this with DVDs too. The encryption keys were in a sector of the DVD that was only writable using licensed DVD pressers--these sectors were zeroed out on the writable/rewritable media. That was really effective, wasn't it? Oh, wait.

The BDA also adopted "BD+", a Blu-ray Disc specific programmable renewability enhancement that gives content providers an additional means to respond to organized attacks on the security system by allowing dynamic updates of compromised code. With these enhancements, content providers have a number of methods to choose from to combat hacks on Blu-ray players. Moreover, BD+ affects only players that have been attacked, as opposed to those that are vulnerable but haven't been attacked and therefore continue to operate properly.

Translation: movies will have firmware updates included on the disc for your Blu-ray player, and the disc will flash your firmware for you if you have an old/unauthorized version.

This has worked pretty well for the PSP, hasn't it? Oh, wait.

Yeah, it's a lot of posturing, and it's far from hack-proof.

Nathan

 

[Lord Error]

This has worked pretty well for the PSP, hasn't it? Oh, wait.

Well it did, or better say it will. As long as PSP has at least 1.51 installed, there's no way to play anything homebrew on it. Perhaps some hardware modding in the future, but you can count out these tricks like folder naming that works on 1.50.

 

[Tain]

There are still plenty of exploits to be found in PSP firmware 1.51+, I'm sure.

 

[COCKLES]

Pirate Proof.

Well there goes Sony's hold on Europe! :lol

 

[DCharlie]

"but also results in increased costs and limited flexibility for consumers,"

what? .... nothing empowers the consumers like $1 snide DVDs....

Europe am cry.

Me: "Getting a dreamcast?"
Chav : "... can i play pirate games on it?"
Me : "um... not yet"
Chav : " fuck that, i'll get a PS2.... will i be able to play pirate games on that?"
Me : "no idea...."
Chav : "Ps1'll do for now then."

Anecdotal and tenuous at best, but i'm sure a lot of chavs will be put off if the games clock in at $59 (which will obviously convert to 59 GBP (or circa $120))

I know someone mentioned something about the US being more price concious about stuff in another thread, but the UKers get absolutely gang raped on prices. You buy a game in the UK and you leave the store feeling "air tight"

lol - actually - when i was back in Newcastle, this MILF took a PS2 into a store asking about thier repair service.

"it wont read any disks any more... "
"it's okay we can fix that"
"Oh, and it's a chipped playstation, so we can , you know, play the copied games - that wouldn't be affected right?"
"no problems. that'll still work"

Both sides of the market, happily accepting piracy! lollers.

(the Music)WELCOME TO THE NORTH(/the Music)

 

[C- Warrior]

I don't see why Sony would care about not selling units to pirate laden countries as they did with PS2. They lose money on console sales, and regain it through software royalties.

You can't really beat piracy, although you can make it more and more annoying to detract users from doing it. Which is obviously the point, the article didn't say in any instance it woudl make things "pirate proof."

EDIT: It's really funny to see some users twist the fact of limiting piracy as actually a bad thing.



IGN: Sony creates a well protected (intellectual property) console, yay to publishers, developers and the general well being of the industry!

Select GAFers: Nope, -30,000,000 console unit sales, Xbox 360 for the win :lol

 

[The Faceless Master]

Don't they also have to leave the top off or build some crazy contraption on top of it? That would constitue a pain to me. I know they had to at some point, but maybe they found a way to get the games on smaller discs? I won't even get into streaming.

not really...

or

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16817132372

 

[Vince]

<snip> Chav: ...

... Both sides of the market, happily accepting piracy!

I think here's the first problem, you're relying on a fucker whose name is "Chav," which is about a pubic hair above "Oliver" on the douchebag scale. So, already, without even considering the rest of your unfounded and, frankly, asinine argument about how piracy is mainstream enough to influence the console vendor's in a positive manner.

I suppose we should forget common sense and nevermind the immense empirical evidence to the contrary such as the [software]:[hardware] ratio on the PlayStation Platform which is an excellent metric. For the PS brand, the ratio is industry leading and would imply that most software is bought via legal channels. Unless you're willing to submit that the "true" amount of software consumed by a legitimate customer is more like ~[15] to ~[20] titles to compensate for the fact that you posit that black-market goods, B, are a substantial enough fraction of the total number of legitimite soft sales, S, to directly influence the installed hardware base, N.

Thus, as a corollary to the above statement, we'd see that since the [software]:[hardware] ratio is dependent on both the legit soft sales, S, and the known, static, quantity which is the installed hardware base, N, if we change the ratio from the current [S]:[N] -- which yeilds on the order of [10]:[1] for the PlayStation1|2 -- to [S + B]*[N]^(-1) (*) to express the fact that since there is a significant quanitity of black-maket goods distributed over N, the effective number bought legitimitly is effectively increased on a per capita basis by a comperable amount, we alter the effective ratio to [15]:[1] or above...

But, you wouldn't cede that now would you... although your short-sighted argument doesn exactly that if you stop to think it out.

(*) EDIT: This can be expressed equivalently, although modeled perhaps more accurarely, in terms of a diminishing hardware installed base that purchases legitimite titles, thus you'd have a subset of N that plays pirated games, [Np], while the software sales are held static. Yeilding [S]*[Np]^(-1) where Np is a subset of N that takes the variable B's ditribution over N into account. I chose the former method as it's easier to follow and you get the same shit out at the end of the day without worrying about set-theory.

 

[C- Warrior]

^nevermind

 

[Cheerilee]

The BDA also adopted "BD+", a Blu-ray Disc specific programmable renewability enhancement that gives hackers an additional means to launch organized attacks on the security system by allowing dynamic updates of compromised code.

 

[DCharlie]

"I think here's the first problem, you're relying on a fucker whose name is "Chav," which is about a pubic hair above "Oliver" on the douchebag scale. So, already, without even considering the rest of your unfounded and, frankly, asinine argument about how piracy is mainstream enough to influence the console vendor's in a positive manner. "

If you don't know what a Chav is, why bother commenting?

if you learned to read, you'd see that i already conceeded that it was anecdotal.

I'll finish working out TEH COMPLEX MAFFS that obviously a tiny brain like mine would have trouble figuring out.

 

[acidviper]

Give programmers a good year or so, they'll crack it.

If money can be made off copied games. This too shall pass.

Its got a hard drive so perhaps an HD-Loader type program?

 

[Vince]

if you learned to read, you'd see that i already conceeded that it was anecdotal.

I did and I showed why your anecdotal assumptions were wrong, I didn't attack you but rather how you use situations as proof which anyone can tell is BS.

And as far as the name fuck-up, well.. I screwed up. Haha, it reminded me of an eastern euro guy I met.

 

[DCharlie]

"I did and I showed why your anecdotal assumptions were wrong, I didn't attack you but rather how you use situations as proof which anyone can tell is BS."

i can only say it one more time! I was already conceeding up front that what i was saying was ANECDOTAL AND TENUOUS AT BEST.

??

as for the maths, i pretty much agree - the only thing i'd say is there is the assumption on your own part (implicitly) that for a tie ratio to go up to 15:1 then

1) pirates don't buy ANY legit games
2) there is a significant userbase that want the machine only for pirated wares.

And if that's the case, you'd be buying into to my anecdotal evidence!

 

[MrSingh]

Goddamn buttpirates.

You called?

 

[pilonv1]

I think here's the first problem, you're relying on a fucker whose name is "Chav," which is about a pubic hair above "Oliver" on the douchebag scale.

:lol :lol Seriously if you don't know what a "Chav" is you're pretty much unqualified to talk about the state of piracy in the UK. PSP tie ratio isn't a good example either because you're using different markets, but it was a great attempt at damage control. Gotta protect the hive!

 

[TheJollyCorner]

I would feel pretty bad for the pirates on this one. I mean, for christs sake, this would mean they'd actually have to buy stuff! What kind of fucking world is this??

pirates may cry/

 

[DCharlie]

check out either : chavscum or chavtown.co.uk for a full look at the Chav phenomenon that's sweeping britain.

Chavs were the reason Crazy Frog went to no. 1 ...

One quick clip :

"Some of the younger Chavs go for the lighters, either to steal or try to make out they are 23 when actually ther 8, but the lighter man gives them the lighters anyway, as he needs as much money as possible to feed his Pikey family and he remembers when he was a young Chav and needed a light, he couldnt nick it off passers by all the time. Then theres the DVD and Playstation one stall, thats right, I said Playstation one games, not PS2, chavs cannot ever dream of buying a PS2, stealing one maybe."

lol - comedy gold.

 

[mckmas8808]

I would feel pretty bad for the pirates on this one. I mean, for christs sake, this would mean they'd actually have to buy stuff! What kind of fucking world is this??

pirates may cry/

Yeah I know right. There's nothing worst than actually buying something that people spent 100's of hours to make. [/sarcasm]

 

[DCharlie]

"Yeah I know right. There's nothing worst than actually buying something that people spent 100's of hours to make."

true - but (and not a justification) there IS nothing worse than having to pay nigh on double for the same product (games) as in the US. (UKers am pwned)

THIS IS NOT A JUSTIFICATION OF PIRACY, just a note that if people in the UK were asked to pay US prices, perhaps you'd see a much larger uptake in software purchases?

 

[Fafalada]

perhaps you'd see a much larger uptake in software purchases?

What was the UK prices like back in the 80s? I mean UK was pretty much the cradle of Euro-piracy scene back then, with games often hitting pirate channels before streetdate - and there was no internet helping that out then.

 

[aaaaa0]

Translation: movies will have firmware updates included on the disc for your Blu-ray player, and the disc will flash your firmware for you if you have an old/unauthorized version.

It's actually more complicated and insidious than just firmware updates.

One of the ways that I've heard that BD+/SPDC works is you have a code module on the disc that must be loaded and executed to decrypt the movie, and part of what that code module can do is probe to see if the player's codecs/firmware/hardware have been tampered with, update the firmware of the player, and also uniquely watermark the player output so they can trace the source of a copy.

So for every new release, they can potentially put new and different encryption mechanisms on the disc, new watermarking methods, and new and different hardware integrity checks -- so it's not like breaking DVD's CSS where once you've figured out the one single algorithm you're done -- BD discs could potentially have hundreds of different protection systems, and to make a cracked player work with all of them is much harder than just one.

I guess an analogy on the PC would be like downloading a EXE which is a player for an encrypted video packaged in the same file. As soon as you run that EXE, it flashes your system's firmware, checks to see if you have any software it doesn't like installed, etc, and only decrypts and plays the movie once it's satisified your system is acceptable. If you sat down and reverse engineered the EXE, you could probably figure out how to decrypt the movie without running the EXE, but the next movie you download will have a different player EXE, which means you'll have to crack the next one completely differently.

The flip-side is such a system is probably really fragile, and could quite possibly break in all sorts of nasty unintended ways, locking out legitimate users on legitimate but slightly non-compliant players, which is one of the reasons I understand that SPDC was rejected for HD DVD.

 

[DCharlie]

"What was the UK prices like back in the 80s? I mean UK was pretty much the cradle of Euro-piracy scene back then, with games often hitting pirate channels before streetdate - and there was no internet helping that out then."

well, the UK prices in the 80s for C64 and Spectrum stuff ranged from

Mastertronic and Firebird : 1.99
all the way up to Ultimate charging 9:99 per game, with the odd game (Psi-5 trading company for instance) hitting 14.99

but i'd say the average price was about 7.99

C90 tapes/diskettes would fly back and forward between people all the time.

The flip-side is such a system is probably really fragile

I bought a *ahem* nature *ahem* DVD recently - when i popped it into the PC and tried to play it, i got the old "Oh, there is a problem with the digital rights management on this disk. This disk will not be played" or something like that. Now, i'd like to know what happens with Bluray ? is it going to just say "NOPE - not playing" or is it going to say "EVIL CORRUPT PIRATE! I WILL NO LONGER WORK ANY MORE! Call Sony/whoever on 080-DEAD-PS3 to have this electronically reactivated...."

"Huh... hello? Sony... yeah... Digital rights issue... PS3 stopped working.... what? DVD titles that forced the lock up? .... um... errr... 85 guy cream pie and err... Lassie : Bone Alone.... ..............................
my name? .... errr.... sorry have to go, err... i just remember i left a knife in the fork draw. Bye."


"Nature video" or not, it was a legit product. I had to watch this damn thing on the projector via the special xbox ...

it was like Attack of the 50ft woman in my living room ....

 

[maharg]

The flip-side is such a system is probably really fragile, and could quite possibly break in all sorts of nasty unintended ways, locking out legitimate users on legitimate but slightly non-compliant players (which is one of the reasons it was rejected for HD DVD).

Or the passing of virii on illegitimate/homebrew(ie. illegal imports) videos. Can't wait for that to happen.

 

[Starfire]

Give the haxxors a week, makes no difference for me, I will be obtaining my PS3 games the legal way, only thing that worries me is the privacy implications a system like this could have on consumers.

 

[DCharlie]

isn't good xbl content is a pretty good anti piracy measure ?

I mean, Xlink Kai is fantastic and all that, but...

 

[Fafalada]

Mastertronic and Firebird : 1.99
all the way up to Ultimate charging 9:99 per game, with the odd game (Psi-5 trading company for instance) hitting 14.99

All right now I actually remember (not UK but other prices) - Activision, Mastertronic and co. were the ultimate producers of cheap games back then (and not that many were good either).
Ultimate games were in a whole different league then most, even if they kept selling the same game over and over with a new title every time
It's interesting that the disparity between budget and normal releases was bigger back then though.

C90 tapes/diskettes would fly back and forward between people all the time.

And you could buy backups in a backalley days before they were officially out.
Do people still pay for pirated copies in Euro land nowadays? I have to say I'm more then a bit out of the loop in regards to that.

 

[DCharlie]

"Ultimate games were in a whole different league then most, even if they kept selling the same game over and over with a new title every time "

Alien 8, Knightlore etc... etc...
yeah, those were the days!

It's interesting that the disparity between budget and normal releases was bigger back then though.

Indeed. Some great 1.99 games though - i used to buy all the C64 games that Hubbard did the music for.

and you had true gems like Warhawk of course. And the Finders Keepers series (hubbard did the music for Spellbound so that worked out well! )

"And you could buy backups in a backalley days before they were officially out.
Do people still pay for pirated copies in Euro land nowadays? I have to say I'm more then a bit out of the loop in regards to that."

Well, the tech savvy euros i know usually go via Bit Torrent. The more Chavscum people i know don't understand Bit Torrent, so it's bootlegs bought of people at Flea Markets, dodgy market stalls, certain stores (there was at least a couple of dodgy places in Liverpool)

 

[Fafalada]

Alien 8, Knightlore etc... etc...
yeah, those were the days!

Gotta give them credit that they DID advance their adventure series every few titles though.
2d -> 3d, 3d -> 3d with scrolling backgrounds instead of rooms.
And actually while their iso-3d games were pretty similar to one another, 2d ones were quite unique (I mean Atic Atack, Sabre Wulf and Underwurld were each quite special in their way... got to try that GBA revision more)

Indeed. Some great 1.99 games though - i used to buy all the C64 games that Hubbard did the music for.

Well C64 had the benefit of some games being worth it for music alone (Amiga too). Finders Keepers was one whacky series of games though.

Well, the tech savvy euros i know usually go via Bit Torrent. The more Chavscum people i know don't understand Bit Torrent, so it's bootlegs bought of people at Flea Markets, dodgy market stalls, certain stores (there was at least a couple of dodgy places in Liverpool)

Sounds a lot like HK and few of the other places then. It's kind of funny - but broadband is sort of working against organized piracy. What happens when everyone knows how to download for free and pirates no longer have money to make doing what they do.
Pirate downloadable services for $...?

 

[DCharlie]

"Sounds a lot like HK and few of the other places then. It's kind of funny - but broadband is sort of working against organized piracy. What happens when everyone knows how to download for free and pirates no longer have money to make doing what they do.
Pirate downloadable services for $...? "

lol - anyone stupid enough to give their credit card details to a bunch of dodgy eastern block/asian crooks needs locking up!

 

[aaaaa0]

Or the passing of virii on illegitimate/homebrew(ie. illegal imports) videos. Can't wait for that to happen.

That's a concern, but I think it's relatively easy to mitigate. I can imagine a solution where before the player executes the SPDC module on the disc, it checks the signature of the module against the trusted certs it has stored in the firmware.

So illegal/homebrew SPDC modules simply won't run on a retail player out of the box.

I'm guessing the player runs the SPDC module only after it has verified the signature. The module then probes the hardware for hacks, verifies the authenticity of the disc, updates the device firmware and trusted certificate list, than applies a unique watermark based on a hash of the player's serial number into the output, and starts decrypting the movie stream.

Scary stuff.

 

[DCharlie]

any guesses on the cost of Bluray content?

Obviously, here in Japan, we get it HARD on DVD prices and even HARDER on UMD prices.
I'm worried what the price point is going to be of HD content.

 

[aaaaa0]

Found a decent whitepaper on SPDC:

http://www.cryptography.com/resources/whitepapers/SelfProtectingContent.pdf

Yeah. Scary stuff.

 

[Piepz]

PS3 sales -45,000,000

 

[Brimstone]

In todays Wallstreet Journal there is an article about HD-DVD losing some steam with the lack of early support. Companies are scaling back their releases for the format. They don't see an early mover advantage for HD-DVD.

The article also mentions the additional anti-piracy technology in Blu-Ray is a result of 20th Century Fox making demands. Not all of the Blu-Ray group members agree on the anti-piracy technology, so some fighting is going on.

Can't link to the article because I read the newspaper.

 

[sonycowboy]

any guesses on the cost of Bluray content?

Obviously, here in Japan, we get it HARD on DVD prices and even HARDER on UMD prices.
I'm worried what the price point is going to be of HD content.

It should be the same for HD-DVD and Blu-Ray.

I'm betting: (US prices)
$19.99 New release DVD MSRP, but you can find it for $15
$29.99 New release HD movie MSRP, but you can find it for $25

and for that you'll get a infinitely better quality movie assuming you have a good enough set for it.

The movie studios will need to keep DVD rolling along as it will take years for HD to have significant volume.

In todays Wallstreet Journal there is an article about HD-DVD losing some steam with the lack of early support. Companies are scaling back their releases for the format. They don't see an early mover advantage for HD-DVD.

The article also mentions the additional anti-piracy technology in Blu-Ray is a result of 20th Century Fox making demands. Not all of the Blu-Ray group members agree on the anti-piracy technology, so some fighting is going on.

Can't link to the article because I read the newspaper.

I don't see HD-DVD actually having the early mover advantage any more. I'll be incredibly surprised if they can actually make the November launch as AACS is still not finalized and we've got at least one production facility that does the bulk of Warner's duplication saying they aren't doing any HD-DVD production this year.

There was an article months ago, saying that they would need a minimum of 3 months once AACS is finalized to get the testing, software encoding, hardware anti-piracy stuff, key generation, etc for the format to be launched. I know AACS was reported to have been ready by sometime this month, but AACS is already over a year late in meeting it's deadline.

That and look who's on AACS: Sony, Microsoft, IBM, Intel, Toshiba, Panasonic, Disney, & WB. There's at least 3 partners there who are heavily Blu-Ray invested (3 for HD-DVD as well) and I wouldn't put it past them to drag their feet a little (maybe that's already been happening).