I think that's also a benefit of not releasing more than twelve issues of any given title in the span of a year on DC's part. When you give artists some time to do their thing at the best of their ability, you get some killer fucking art. Also, DC has been way better at handling fill-in artists, which keeps the books aesthetically coherent from one issue to the next. There's a reason why I've been harping on Daredevil for the past couple of months. When you start switching artists like it ain't no thing, you make your title seem less and less special.
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COMICS! July |OT| - Independents Day
- Thread starter The Take Out Bandit
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I think that's also a benefit of not releasing more than twelve issues of any given title in the span of a year on DC's part. When you give artists some time to do their thing at the best of their ability, you get some killer fucking art. Also, DC has been way better at handling fill-in artists, which keeps the books aesthetically coherent from one issue to the next. There's a reason why I've been harping on Daredevil for the past couple of months. When you start switching artists like it ain't no thing, you make your title seem less and less special.
Rafa=FedKilla
Banned
Especially all week with Marvel acting like they discovered some magic formula for comics. GREAT writer plus GREAT artist plus GREAT character plus GREAT hook=success. Wow, look how simple it is to make comics. Where's great (reasonable) price in this equation? I had to drop Daredevil when they tripled ship and the story left off at the same place it was in the beginning plus artist change. I'm comin' for ya brah.
I didn't really like The Massive #1, i think it's just the theme not being something i'm interested in.
Wolverine and the X-Men #12...i liked the last two pages, that's about it. Kill AvX with fire so it can't spread. I hope Hope hope dies and isn't reborn. In my eyes, she is a Marvel editorial mandate in comic book character form.
Wolverine and the X-Men #12...i liked the last two pages, that's about it. Kill AvX with fire so it can't spread. I hope Hope hope dies and isn't reborn. In my eyes, she is a Marvel editorial mandate in comic book character form.
BenjaminBirdie
Banned
While I'd obviously like cheaper comics, why should that factor into said equation?
krypt0nian
Banned
From Marvel's point of view it shouldn't. From a buyer's POV, why should they be higher except Marvel says so? It's one of the reasons I don't buy as many Marvel comics that appeal to me.
Between their artificially high price and double shipping, they end up losing more of my money.
Rafa=FedKilla
Banned
I just do not believe that double shipped books should be four dollars, especially coming from a company that makes billions of dollars a year more than some countries. Disney doesn't need that extra dollar, Matt Kindt needs it, Brian Wood needs it, Brain McCann needs it, Kurtis J. Wiebe needs it, Nick Spencer needs it. I want to give Marvel my money but they are just pricing themselves out of what little comic fans are left.
Extra Sauce
Member
You realize the smaller amount of readers is one of the main causes of prices going up?
It's a self-fulfilling prophecy, and therefore the exact reason why you shouldn't do it. Less people buying books leads to raising the prices which leads to less people buying books. Good on the short term, because hey more money, but bad on the long term because hey, way less readers.
BenjaminBirdie
Banned
It's not like the industry was thriving between $1.99 and $2.99.
I mean look, I was interested in Brian Wood writing two X-books, but not $3.99 interested. That said, I'm thrilled that this is the approach Marvel is taking to their NuMeToo initiative, as opposed to filling 52 slots haphazardly. Something tells me DC wasn't following this tenet when they put together the team for Blackhawks that lasted 12 pages.
(I'm also pretty sure that all $3.99 books come with a digital copy these days, but I don't know how much people care about that. But it's a potential factor I guess.)
My point exactly. The thing with raising the prices is it doesn't hurt the top sellers. People will still buy Batman or X-Men or what have you. It hurts the books in the middle and at the bottom. Those you might have bought were you able to spare the cash.
This fits in with a point about Marvel's approach. Sure, it's probably way more thought-out than the new 52, but if you don't follow that with a pricing structure that encourages people to sample your goods, you will not go anywhere.
Same goes for continuity, I think. We've seen how terrible the new 52 was when it half-assedly tried to incorporate old continuity in the new stories. The best books of the relaunch either integrated old continuity by only addressing it when necessary - like Batman / Animal Man / Swamp Thing or some others- or by getting rid of it entirely -Action Comics or Wonder Woman-.
i really like the digital codes being included....though Marvel Comics App isn't supported on my touchpad with cm9 android. One day i presume i'll have a tablet that supports it and i'll have lots of Marvel comics on it to pretend like i'm ever going to reread. For me, digital codes are best for books i like but don't like enough to buy the OHC if it comes out. Stuff like Ultimates for instance, too bad it only started getting codes at issue #6.
Double shipping + $3.99 is brutal though. I definitely pass up books partly because of that, but the strongest still survive. I'll probably drop Defenders over pricing, and some books i don't even give much of a look to, like Wood's X-Men being " another 3.99 double shipping x-men book, who cares if its good"
Double shipping + $3.99 is brutal though. I definitely pass up books partly because of that, but the strongest still survive. I'll probably drop Defenders over pricing, and some books i don't even give much of a look to, like Wood's X-Men being " another 3.99 double shipping x-men book, who cares if its good"
Digital should really be $1.99 for Marvel/DC. And not a month after release.
DCBS sells books 40% off and still makes enough profit to stay in business. I doubt Marvel would be making that much less than they do on a $4 print copy if they were getting $1.40 a copy for digital (assuming that comixology takes a 30% cut like most digital distributors).
LCS owners are nice, hard working folk, but print media is going to die in the not so far future (particularly the monthly floppies. Trades will stick around longer) . Appeasing LCS owners now is just going to ensure that an entire generation of kids grow up with no attachment to comics.
DCBS sells books 40% off and still makes enough profit to stay in business. I doubt Marvel would be making that much less than they do on a $4 print copy if they were getting $1.40 a copy for digital (assuming that comixology takes a 30% cut like most digital distributors).
LCS owners are nice, hard working folk, but print media is going to die in the not so far future (particularly the monthly floppies. Trades will stick around longer) . Appeasing LCS owners now is just going to ensure that an entire generation of kids grow up with no attachment to comics.
They've got to do....something. I dunno what, i read the #0 issue of Savage Dragon since issues 100-179 are on sale for 99 cents each and really liked it, but...what am i supposed to do exactly after that? Skip the first 100 issues and spend $79 on digital single issues? Start a 179 issue series at $2 a pop digitally? That's just not going to happen. Ever. Ever ever ever. Maybe some type of mega-bundles of 10 issues for $5 or so, something to make the proposition of getting caught up easier.
krypt0nian
Banned
DC Deck Building Game!
This plus the just announced cooperative Pathfinder Deck Building Game have my money already!
This plus the just announced cooperative Pathfinder Deck Building Game have my money already!
They should have subscription model for back issues on a 6-12 month lag, and then sell the newer singles for $2 an issue digitally. Marvel's digital comics unlimited subscription service is pretty good, but it could be better. I think they currently add 100-125 new issues a month to the catalogue from a mixture of old and more recent runs. I would bump this to 150-175 issues a month, providing monthly updates to all ongoing series while continuing to digitize old 70s-00s stuff. They could raise the price slightly if they wanted. I'd pay $10 a month instead of $5 if I knew every marvel book would eventually be on there within a year. The few Marvel books I like reading and discussing day 1, I would still buy in digital singles. I would be buying more of these series if they were $2 a piece instead of $3-4.
It would be harder to do this sort of thing if your catalogue was creator owned like Image, but I am sure they could work it out.
Cross Gen had a digital subscription wayyy back. Years before Marvel ever did. All of their books were on there after 6 months or so. I read so many Cross gen books during the lifetime of that subscription. Granted they were only making $20-30 a year off of me (I don't remember the exact price, but I was a broke college student so it couldn't have been that high), but I would have paid $0 for Cross Gen books otherwise. I could barely afford the titles I was already following.
The Take Out Bandit
Member
HYPE!
HYPE!
HYPE!
HYPE!
HYPE!
I can't sleep with this hype in me!
HYPE!
HYPE!
HYPE!
HYPE!
Fact is, it should be $1.99 at retail. But having it at that price for the digital back issues is probably as good as it's gonna get for a while. However, I totally disagree with your point about the death of floppies. There's nothing like an actual physical object to generate attachment, and as dumb as the notion is there will always be some sort of market for collectors.
The Take Out Bandit
Member
The collector market (hicks buying funnybooks in the hopes of putting their bastard offspring through community college on inflated aftermarket values) needs to die.
Once we get rid of collectors we can get to the purity of comics that are cheaply produced, and trades which are collected because you like the book and want the convenient package.
This is what digital ought to be pursuing. Increasing the number of readers on digital devices, then once they're hooked they can buy the collected editions.
SELL MORE COMICS!
Why in the fuck are Warner / Disney not giving out free comics with movie ticket sales? Just print a redemption code on the ticket stub, or give theaters little vouchers to hand out with the ticket sale for X amount of issues of (MOVIE TIE-IN COMIC) or a month of digital comics from your catalogue of titles. People can download them to their digital devices on the way home or when they're on the toilet bored.
So much missed opportunity.
How about advertising comics before the film instead of some of the other dumb shit I see advertised before the trailers roll?
American comic companies miss so many fucking sales opportunities it's not funny.
I feel like what DC failed to pick up from the success of the new 52 is the fact that if you advertise your books people will come and check them out. It's basic stuff, and you'd think they'd be smart enough to do it as often as they can, but for some reason they don't. HEY YOU DUMMOS, ADVERTISE TO PEOPLE WHO AREN'T BUYING YOUR BOOKS. PEOPLE LIKE GOOD STUFF, AND YOU'VE GOT SOME GOODS.
The Take Out Bandit
Member
Yeah. I've been alive 36 years, and that's the first time I can recall comic books in North America being advertised on TV.
I was hoping DC would have had the sense to at least advertise the new wave of New 52 titles half as aggressively, or other key events - like the whole Owls crossover thing.
This isn't fucking rocket science.
You don't need to advertise everywhere like they did with the re-launch. Just on key networks. I mean really. . .
I just remember watching Vs. Knight Lamune & 40 Fire fansubs on VHS back in the 90's and every commercial break had a commercial for Shonen Ace (IIRC) that pitched audiences COMICS!
Come on guys.
The collector mentality translates over to digital. Look at Steam or iTunes. Today's 8-13 year old doesn't have an attachment to physical media like his 40 year old father does. The majority of comics are nearly worthless from a re-sale value anyhow. They could always do limited edition and variant Hardcovers for collectors.
$1.99 is not really reasonable for print comics anymore. They still have to pay the creators, they sell less comics on average, and the cost of printing has gone up a decent amount. With Diamond and LCS cuts they would be getting less than $1 a book, and that is before printing and distribution expenses. The margins on digital are better, and the potential volume is way higher.
I also find it funny that Robert Kirkman managed to spin the success of the Walking Dead TV show into increased sales for his comic when Marvel and DC who are owned by multimedia titans can't do so even though their $1-1.5 billion movies this year are advertising their characters to hundreds of millions of people.
krypt0nian
Banned
Yup that's why it has my attention. No random cards and endless buying to keep up. I did that once for MtG and never again. This shares the superior Ascension/Dominion model.
Darkflight
Member
So it's not like the UDE VS game at all? To be fair I mainly bought them for the art as no-one I knew played. Would love an iOS version of that.
krypt0nian
Banned
From what I'm reading it's nothing like that, but more in common with the bigger games in the genre.
BenjaminBirdie
Banned
A few things:
- Sample what goods? There's no fresh new names here. I'm following creators who I already know can and will deliver
- I think it's a bit inaccurate to paint this like the comic industry should try and pull in new readers and that they're "blowing it" this time. Marvel has tried, for decades, in any number of ways, to expand their readership: The Ultimate Universe, Heroes Reborn, The Heroic Age; put out perfect kid friendly books like Thor: The Mighty Avenger. Nothing worked. That ship has sailed.
People are talking about this in the same way people talk about video game prices or DLC. As if companies are just throwing darts at a pricing structure board and going "Oh, 3.99? I'm against it, but the dart says what the dart says. $3.99 it is."
The most popular books in the industry sell 150,000 copies a month. This industry is dead on its feet. Sure, the $3.99 price structure keeps me from certain books, but it's in a minority. But it doesn't keep me from supporting creators. I might not read Wood on X-Men (until he gets some better artists) but I buy Conan and The Massive every month. I put my money where my mouth is every week, supporting creators (both big tw -- well, Marvel -- and small press stuff) and my LCS.
I think the thing that bugs me personally about whinging about $3.99 is if there was any trace of a semblance of it being any kind of unnecessary move driven by greed. They've raised the prices and still lowered print quality. I don't believe any corporation deserves my sympathy, but I'll kick in another dollar an issue knowing that I still support an industry I care about and until they start making creative decisions I have deep problems with.
BenjaminBirdie
Banned
Now this is interesting.
a) I don't think The Walking Dead has ever outsold a big two book monthly
b) Marvel's properties are spread across probably literally hundreds of trades. So if a Walking Dead book makes some best seller list, it's one of 14 options for consumers. But if the same 2000 customers (trust me, "best sellers" sell less than you think) want an Avengers book, that audience is split over many more options.
i had to make a new thread to promote Comixology Nextwave sale.
Apart from that, i view Marvel and DC as...unwilling....to push their books. They think a push is when you put a character in a new costume or kill him, and that's it. Story driven pushes, in-line hype. People will come because the Avengers are punching X-Men. Nothing to do with price or advertising to non-readers, just some banners on-top of newsarama. Nothing to do with getting comics in the hands of readers in some other way. Marvel has a subscription service that i enjoy that doesn't run on ipad and has a slow-as-molasses-that-is-racing-cheese website. Their updates are on a whim, random books randomly, and typically out of order. Moon Knight #1, 2, 3, 4, and 6. Why not #5? Screw it, read #6. And that's if they even update a series that month, which they usually don't. Gee, i can't tell why more people aren't eager to subscribe.
Apart from that, i view Marvel and DC as...unwilling....to push their books. They think a push is when you put a character in a new costume or kill him, and that's it. Story driven pushes, in-line hype. People will come because the Avengers are punching X-Men. Nothing to do with price or advertising to non-readers, just some banners on-top of newsarama. Nothing to do with getting comics in the hands of readers in some other way. Marvel has a subscription service that i enjoy that doesn't run on ipad and has a slow-as-molasses-that-is-racing-cheese website. Their updates are on a whim, random books randomly, and typically out of order. Moon Knight #1, 2, 3, 4, and 6. Why not #5? Screw it, read #6. And that's if they even update a series that month, which they usually don't. Gee, i can't tell why more people aren't eager to subscribe.
I'm excited, but its a Cryptozic game, who churns out these licensed dbg games like clockwork following a simple formula. Won't preorder and wait for BGG to tell me about itDC Deck Building Game!
This plus the just announced cooperative Pathfinder Deck Building Game have my money already!
A deck building game implies that everything you need is in the box. Basically, there a starting 10 card deck that each player starts with. You draw 5 cards and use the resources in the cards to acquire more powerful cards and building up your deck in order to acquire whatever it is that wins the game.
Outsold the top books? Of course not. But the Walking Dead was #31 in May (50k copies sold), #47 in April (37k copies sold), and #54 in March (34k copies sold) according to ICv2. I think May was a big issue storywise, but it regularly outsells a lot of Marvel and DC monthlies. In 2010 (before the show launched) the book was averaging 10k copies less a month. I guess 10k is not a huge number, but it's almost 50% for a series averaging 25k copies a month, and is a pretty big bump for a independent book that is close to 10 years old and nearing 100 issues.
11 of the top 30 graphic novels on Amazon are Walking dead TPBs. 5 of the top 30 are Batman related (including Earth One which is out tomorrow, and a visual guide to the movie). 4 are something called Dork Diaries, 2 are Diary of a Wimpy kid, none are Avengers related. Local HMVs sell graphic novels where I live and the Walking dead has more shelf space than all of Marvel. DC does seem to be doing better in securing real estate outside of comic shops for their Graphic Novels, so kudos for them.
I know that the Walking dead show is popular, and that having the entire universe contained in 100 issues makes it easier to manage, but the Marvel movies have made billions of dollars in the past 5 years. I don't think they are doing nearly as much as they can do to leverage that exposure.
EDIT: Also, the last time a new volume of the Walking Dead trade paperback came out, it sold over 20k copies in the direct market. Volume 1 sold 20k copies in the two months after this season of the show wrapped up. The book is making a lot of money for a non-Marvel/DC event comic.
http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=39623
Marvel NOW! Point One coming in October.
i bought the first Point One issue since it was half off at dcbs and i still felt like an idiot, especially since DCBS were practically giving it away a few months ago for 40 cents. It should have been free, it's a glorified teaser for their other books.
And my initial first look at that image thought it was Fury there, briefly forgetting that it's The Artist Formerly Known As Marcus Johnson. Maybe Metta World Fury.
Marvel NOW! Point One coming in October.
i bought the first Point One issue since it was half off at dcbs and i still felt like an idiot, especially since DCBS were practically giving it away a few months ago for 40 cents. It should have been free, it's a glorified teaser for their other books.
And my initial first look at that image thought it was Fury there, briefly forgetting that it's The Artist Formerly Known As Marcus Johnson. Maybe Metta World Fury.
krypt0nian
Banned
Marcus Johnson ban in full effect.
krypt0nian
Banned
That is GODLIKE
Walking Dead also has the benefit of having a very clear starting point. If people want to start reading it, go to the first volume. If you want to get into DC or Marvel's superheroes, that's usually a pretty confusing affair. At least DC has started numbering their shit with the New 52. I don't read Marvel, but it looks like they've been doing some selective numbering as well. That at least gives new readers some idea of where they can start, even if those characters still have huge histories before those first volumes.
BattleMonkey
Member
DC Deck Building Game!
This plus the just announced cooperative Pathfinder Deck Building Game have my money already!
Too bad it's from Cryptozoic, they mostly put out crap games.
krypt0nian
Banned
I thought their Penny Arcade The Card Game: Gamers vs Evil was getting good reviews.
BenjaminBirdie
Banned
Except BPRD has the tightest continuity in comics history, and that's from Dark Horse.
BattleMonkey
Member
Surprising as I thought it was real bad, one of the worst of the deckbuilders I have in my collection. Rips good mechanics from good Deck Builders and slaps the PA humor on it, but sadly game balance is awful. It's far too reliant on random luck than actual strategy deck builders are known for. The user reviews for it are pretty poor.
It is probably the highest rated thing Crypt has put out so far. The DC game has real nice look to it since it's using actual cover and comic book artwork for the cards and not trying to use original crap at least
krypt0nian
Banned
I was looking on boardgamegeek and it's well liked. Ah different strokes I guess. The only review that matters in the end is my own so I'm looking forward to the DC game.
To give me a chance to drop Green Lantern Corps, Dark Knight ( at least stop pre-ordering till i know if i like it), and skip an issue of Earth 2.
I'm going to feel terrible about it, but i think i'm trade waiting Sword of Sorcery. I'm buying Frankenstein and Demon Knights monthly....that's something, right? At worst it's 15,301 people who buy SoS instead of 15,302. And Frankenstein is having a 3 issue fight with the rot, something i'm already tired of in Animal Man/Swamp Thing.
Finally got unbanned (again.) I need to learn to keep my mouth shut.
Anyway, while I was away I got around to reading a book on wenis' suggestion.
Bro. Books like these are why I read comics!
Phonogram: The Singles Club is a love letter to music, dancing, sex, relationships and comics - and boy does it hit home on every single note. It's made up of 7 issues - each following one friend's perspective of the same night out. It builds so beautifully, and the last issue was just perfect.
Anyway, while I was away I got around to reading a book on wenis' suggestion.
Bro. Books like these are why I read comics!
Phonogram: The Singles Club is a love letter to music, dancing, sex, relationships and comics - and boy does it hit home on every single note. It's made up of 7 issues - each following one friend's perspective of the same night out. It builds so beautifully, and the last issue was just perfect.
Rafa=FedKilla
Banned
Holy shit they are pushing Black Fury way too hard. Pretty soon he will be in the background every Marvel Enterprises comic like Pandora in NU52.
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