funkygunther
Banned
Thanks for clarifying
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Thanks for clarifying
SpiceRacz
Member
It was necessary since you're posting before reading.
funkygunther
Banned
No I'm not, but don't worry about it. Go back to your little laugh emojis mate, it's not safe for you when you step out.
Malakhov
Banned
Try 4th wave here in Quebec
My son gave me a cold, went to do a quick test today hoping it would be positive so I can skip a jab, but nope, a cold
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poppabk
Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
Fortunately, this is still extremely rare. We are also extremely fortunate that COVID didn't have the more usual 'v' shaped virus impact on children and the elderly. The lockdowns we had, in Australia even, would have looked like a hippy commune compared to what we would have seen if 200k young kids in the US had died from this.
SF Kosmo
Al Jazeera Special Reporter
In the sense that 80%is essentially the same as 20%, perhaps...
Like I get that 20% transmissibility compared to unvaccinated is still a significant enough risk that it's not a free pass, but it's objectively not the same risk.
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Thaedolus
Gold Member
You’re right, but the second you’re one of the extremely rare cases? My god. It’s become stressful as hell every time one of my kids gets a cough now. If I lost one of them to something preventable like this…I don’t think I could cope, I’d be done
Malakhov
Banned
Better not to worry about rare cases. My son had his best friend get cancer just before his 5 years old bday. His mom told me about it, that he couldn't come over, he had to leave the daycare center, my son couldn't see him anymore because he had to start his chemotherapy
Ive felt like shit for a few weeks, thinking it could of been my son, really shitty things happen, really dark shit.
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12Goblins
Lil’ Gobbie
probably because getting COVID is not a viable strategy lol
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NoLootBoxDev
Member
A bit of topic but, the argument of the new world order, is more wishful thinking (or fantasy) than nothing else, I guess some people hope to live in the dystopian new world order, than facing the facts:
1) I have been listening to this argument a long time ago (I am almost 40)
2) Even my father hear about it (he is 80+) even before I was born, and he told me even before him
3) The people who believe in it think that all governments will agree to make one central government for everyone (yes because China, Russia, Argentina, Venezuela, and all the rest, will say "yeah, let's do that")
4) All the people in the governments will agree to end their careers, yea this will certainly happen
5)If everyone belongs to this new order, then everyone should have the right to go to any country without asking for papers or whatever you need. Then all strong countries will collapse due to the number of people moving there in the first few months.
6) I can continue with more "arguments", which are just wishful thinking of some people.
The new world order is not a valid argument to not vaccinate. People should see the governments in all countries for that they really are, corrupt selfish people who want to be relevant and stay in power in most cases.
1) I have been listening to this argument a long time ago (I am almost 40)
2) Even my father hear about it (he is 80+) even before I was born, and he told me even before him
3) The people who believe in it think that all governments will agree to make one central government for everyone (yes because China, Russia, Argentina, Venezuela, and all the rest, will say "yeah, let's do that")
4) All the people in the governments will agree to end their careers, yea this will certainly happen
5)If everyone belongs to this new order, then everyone should have the right to go to any country without asking for papers or whatever you need. Then all strong countries will collapse due to the number of people moving there in the first few months.
6) I can continue with more "arguments", which are just wishful thinking of some people.
The new world order is not a valid argument to not vaccinate. People should see the governments in all countries for that they really are, corrupt selfish people who want to be relevant and stay in power in most cases.
FunkMiller
Gold Member
Fuck. I’ve never had kids, but I’m very close to a lot in my family. That’s horrific.
Seriously… how can anyone at this stage claim they’re not being selfish to not take the vaccine?
Surely if it only stops one poor little kid like that getting covid that badly, it’s worth it, isn’t it?
poppabk
Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
I'm always against the "if it just saves one life" type arguments. Getting the vaccine isn't about saving 'just one' life, it's about doing that tiny fraction of a part to contribute to an effort that will save thousands of lives and destroy the hold COVID currently has over society.
Well, there are other factors that decide the spread of the virus besides vaccination. In the UK it looks like R is around 1 overall, with movement not returning to pre-pandemic levels. So whether cases stay where they are or start to increase in a given community, probably depends heavily on the average number of contacts per person. You could have a situation where behavioural changes cause the virus to grow more rapidly in the most heavily vaccinated communities.According to the new NHS report (UK), the rate of infection rate (per 100.000) is significantly higher among the fully vaccinated compared with the unvaccinated in the age group 30-39 and higher. Nevertheless, the vaccination protects quite well against severe courses.
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NoLootBoxDev
Member
They just do not care. I saw a post from an antivaccine mother who complained her husband took their child to be vaccinated in her back. Their previous child died from an easily preventable disease, she was asking for advice now on how to deal with her husband since she felt he betrayed her...
"The hard part for someone who believes lies is to make it accept the truth." Author Me.
on a similar note
"People have a habit of inventing fictions they will believe wholeheartedly in order to ignore the truth they cannot accept." — Libba Bray
BadBurger
Many “Whelps”! Handle It!
PBS had a great episode following the initial spread of the virus (I can't recall if it was Nova or Frontline). China knew how virulent it was as Chinese New Year was upon them - which is one of the most widely traveled holidays as millions of Chinese depart around the world to visit family. They didn't even bother to perform simple symptom testing at their airports. The correct thing to do was to have suspended international travel all together while alerting the world, openly (and not just to the heads of government) that a pandemic was looming.
Now, there's a chance the virus had already been transmitted in small numbers by Chinese who had already left before the virus had been identified on December 31st. But the Chinese government's negligence over Chinese New Year definitely sealed the deal. They should face some kinds of punishment over that IMO, and every government around the world should have the kinds of watchers in China that the US had prior to a certain administration removing them.
As for the origins of the virus, I still think it's zootic. The lab leak stuff is all built on various suspicions and suppositions, while we know every other coronavirus developed in either humans or some other animal.
Chankoras
Member
Agreed the new word order conspiracy stuff is no good reason to avoid a proven vaccine, but that doesn't negate some people's ulterior motives to gain power in a moment of crisis.
To me this sounds plausible:
Nobody_Important
“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
Nothing new about it. The anti-vax crowd have been called selfish for years. Long before Covid ever came about.
TheFarter
Banned
Lot of these people aren't "anti vax" That's another hot word right now. Lot of people have all their shots they need. Just because they've either had covid or are just waiting for sometime later in their life doesn't make them anti vax.
Another hot buzz type of saying is "to own the...." Lol. I'm really doubting majority of people aren't getting this shot to own someone. Lot's of people don't get a flu shot either. Not to own someone. Just because they don't care to get one.
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Narasumas
Member
I got COVID only about 3-4 after even being age-eligible for the vaccine. So had I even gotten it on day one, I wouldn't have been immunized by then. Since I had a pretty gnarly case, I had built up a healthy amount of antibodies. I just got the jab recently after about the 90-mark of having had COVID. It was the best choice for me based on the timeline of events, having a surgery, and giving my immune system a break. It would be nice to have known what my level of protection was, and for how long while waiting for full FDA authorization of the Moderna that I received.
Obviously "getting COVID isn't a viable strategy", but when 40,000+ Americans have already had COVID, and potentially have already been partially immunized, then it is something worth having a better understanding of, frankly. "lol"
Narasumas
Member
Give this a read from yesterday --
Opinion | Science Closes In on Covid’s Origins
Four studies—including two from WHO—provide powerful evidence favoring the lab-leak theory.
www.wsj.com
SpiceRacz
Member
funkygunther
Banned
You keep posting, I'll keep laughing.
Whatever staves off your boredom
BadBurger
Many “Whelps”! Handle It!
Give this a read from yesterday --
Opinion | Science Closes In on Covid’s Origins
Four studies—including two from WHO—provide powerful evidence favoring the lab-leak theory.
Yea I'm aware of all that, I read WSJ weekly.
The opinion piece hinges a lot of its later theories on the fact that scientists were able to detect the previous high-profile coronaviruses in other animals sooner than we did this time around with SARS-CoV-2 (though not all that much sooner), and then begins speculating from there. Just a reminder it took years for a peer reviewed study of the origins of the first SARS and even MERS to be published that was mostly accepted by science as being as accurate as possible given the current data at the time, because these things take time and mistakes are often made in early studies (for a number of blasé reasons). While well written in a persuasive manner, it doesn't offer any better reason than mere supposition that this virus came out of some lab rather than being zootic like every other of its kind.
FunkMiller
Gold Member
Well, that’s what anti-vaxxers are. Always have been. And anyone who expresses anti-vax sentiment is rightly seen by everyone else as being selfish in the face of a pandemic. Less anti-vaxxers, less virus, less sick and dead people.
Don’t like it? Don’t be anti-vax. It’s quite simple.
Of course they are anti-vax. We have all the information we need to tell us the vaccines are safe, and help to keep others safe. There is no good reason not to get vaccinated. Ergo, everyone left who won’t get a vaccination without a decent reason (medically) is an anti-vaxxer.
Again, it’s very simple.
You don’t want it to be, because you don’t want perceived as a selfish anti-vaxxer. But if you haven’t had the vaccine, and you don’t have a good reason, congratulations… everyone else thinks (also rightly) that you’re an anti-vaxxer.
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Cyberpunkd
Member
That 'sometime later in their life' will never come, there will never be enough proof or time passed to satisfy them - it's a smokescreen to make themselves feel they are not total tools. It's ok if they don't want to be vaccinated, then stay at home - going to cinema or bars is not a human right.
FunkMiller
Gold Member
Exactly. They all make rationalisations to convince themselves they’re not selfish or cowardly or uncaring - because nobody wants to think of themselves that way. Being honest with yourself is impossible when you know you’re doing the wrong thing… but won’t change tack because of your politics/fears/selfishness.
The problem for them is, everybody else can clearly see what they are.
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BadBurger
Many “Whelps”! Handle It!
The big pivot, and one that we all saw coming, was when one of the vaccines got FDA approval. It was the moment they were all waiting for - until it wasn't.
That, and now over 6bn doses administered with a tiny, nearly miniscule fraction experiencing side effects? Still not good enough. Meanwhile they gleefully tumble deeper into the rabbit hole of misinformation.
We will all be graying old men and women, floating in our living rooms while jacked into the VR Web, and someone will pop in and be like "remember how the COVID-19 vaccines caused fatal anus ruptures in men under 30?".
betrayal
Banned
This statement reveals so much about today's society.
And people wonder why humanity is evolving backwards and hate, incitement and idiocy are on the rise.
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funkygunther
Banned
we developed a vaccine within a year for a disease we only found out about a year before that
that's my evidence for humanity not evolving backwards and my argument for the opposite...your turn, is it because people being labelled "anti-vaxxer" have a persecution and victim complex?
betrayal
Banned
Social and emotional intelligence has far more to do with how we interact with each other as human beings.
It's great that we develop vaccines or fly to the moon, but it doesn't do us any good if we can solve every problem with science and technology, but are still unable to live together as human beings and life gets worse people because of hatred, intolerance and narrow-mindedness.
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funkygunther
Banned
Yeah exactly and vaccines help us socialise, win-win. Regardless, even without the vaccine we were able to live together and that hasn't changed. Of course some actually worse than others, and those some were not unable to live for their vaccine views. At least not ironically. Maybe you can give some examples of life getting worse for this group? Otherwise all I see is "please be nice to everyone" platitudes, of which calling someone an antivaxxer for arbitrarily not wanting the vaccine is one of the least persecuted labels.
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FunkMiller
Gold Member
“I don’t like the idea being called an anti-vaxxer because I don’t want to take the Covid vaccine, so I’ll call into question other people’s morals when they think I should, rather than tackle my own insecurities due to my politics/fears/beliefs.”
Actions have consequences. Refuse to take a safe and effective vaccine to help others during a pandemic, get called an anti-vaxxer. On this one subject ‘society’ has it absolutely right.
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funkygunther
Banned
And enjoy more lockdowns. Pretty sure that's less palatable.
betrayal
Banned
You want examples? Well, you are an excellent example of how black and white thinking leads to intolerance and hatred.
For more general examples you only have to look at the news of the last years and how issues related to politics, race, gender and much more have divided parts of society, because for many there is only black or white and good or evil. Nothing in between.
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betrayal
Banned
You simplify, but probably unconsciously, the whole situation.
When someone is called an anti-vaxxer, most people, and unfortunately this is intentional, associate this person with being stupid, easily influenced, reckless, aggressive or even right-wing. If you are not vaccinated and you agree with me, then you are an idiot and deserve to die. That's where we are right now. Amazing.
I know that is hard for you and most others. But just imagine you would treat unvaccinated people with respect and accept their decision, no matter if it makes sense or is understandable to you. What would be different then?
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funkygunther
Banned
Somehow I'm an example now. Well that was easy for you but I see you've got nothing here.
betrayal
Banned
You are one of many. What examples would be valid for a person like you?
I'm sorry, but I won't be able to give you an example that makes you feel great.
funkygunther
Banned
I feel great, don't worry about "a person like me". Also I specified very clearly a couple of posts ago. I am trying to get you out of this strawman and commit to an argument where we can discuss people's lives getting worse because they're called antivaxxers.
Narasumas
Member
The self-sureness and smugness of some of these posters is ridiculous. We can still have a conversation about the nuance of this ridiculous situation which is a fricken global pandemic (with many unknowns still, even for the best and brightest scientists) without immediately resorting to vitriol and self satisfaction. I mean, I myself am vaccinated, but totally understand why the average person may still want to play the waiting game for a bit based on how the past 1.5 years have unfolded, or are still unfolding.
I think a lot of us can benefit from returning to have a normal dialogue about the course of events and the situation at-large, as opposed to folks immediately "picking sides" and warring over who's right and wrong. Case & point, I'm sure I will immediately be responded with short, snark remarks telling me I'm wrong as an individual, when really this is still a learning work-in-progress by everyone on the planet at the moment. We are all people who make choices for ourselves and those around us. You can make a personal choice, and while still taking other measures, and not be 'selfish' as described. I think that's too simplified of a conclusion for this particular situation. As stated earlier, since the vaccine doesn't 100% reduce transmissibility, I think it's interesting that the UK NHS study one page back shows that almost double the 30-39 year old patients infected with COVID were already vaccinated, as opposed to half of those being unvaccinated. If this is a matter of 'selfishness', and the vaccine doesn't erase transmissibility, then I would argue a case could be made where the packed football stadiums or concert arenas are where the selfish people are--vaxxed or unvaxxed. Doesn't matter. In the meantime, I keep to myself and stay in my lane and try to avoid precarious situations. I think the overall situation is more than just vaxxed or unvaxxed, but we've narrowed our discussion to this singular point.
Sure, there are cape-wearing 'anti-vaxx' freaks out there, or PTA moms that are 'on one' out there....but I don't think that's what the majority of the discussion has been about. I think we all are in agreement that true 'anti-vaxxers' are a problem. I just wish we treated this pandemic with a little bit more of the nuance that it deserves. Yes, each day the picture becomes more clear...but this has never been a black and white, 'we know everything' situation. Some of ya'll in here just need to chill a bit. It's becoming a back-slapping, head hunting exercise for anyone who isn't 100% on the side of the select, idk ~ 6-7 posters who are frequenting this thread.
I think a lot of us can benefit from returning to have a normal dialogue about the course of events and the situation at-large, as opposed to folks immediately "picking sides" and warring over who's right and wrong. Case & point, I'm sure I will immediately be responded with short, snark remarks telling me I'm wrong as an individual, when really this is still a learning work-in-progress by everyone on the planet at the moment. We are all people who make choices for ourselves and those around us. You can make a personal choice, and while still taking other measures, and not be 'selfish' as described. I think that's too simplified of a conclusion for this particular situation. As stated earlier, since the vaccine doesn't 100% reduce transmissibility, I think it's interesting that the UK NHS study one page back shows that almost double the 30-39 year old patients infected with COVID were already vaccinated, as opposed to half of those being unvaccinated. If this is a matter of 'selfishness', and the vaccine doesn't erase transmissibility, then I would argue a case could be made where the packed football stadiums or concert arenas are where the selfish people are--vaxxed or unvaxxed. Doesn't matter. In the meantime, I keep to myself and stay in my lane and try to avoid precarious situations. I think the overall situation is more than just vaxxed or unvaxxed, but we've narrowed our discussion to this singular point.
Sure, there are cape-wearing 'anti-vaxx' freaks out there, or PTA moms that are 'on one' out there....but I don't think that's what the majority of the discussion has been about. I think we all are in agreement that true 'anti-vaxxers' are a problem. I just wish we treated this pandemic with a little bit more of the nuance that it deserves. Yes, each day the picture becomes more clear...but this has never been a black and white, 'we know everything' situation. Some of ya'll in here just need to chill a bit. It's becoming a back-slapping, head hunting exercise for anyone who isn't 100% on the side of the select, idk ~ 6-7 posters who are frequenting this thread.
FunkMiller
Gold Member
No, no, no. You don’t get to put your own selfish desires ahead of the good of society and play the victim. That just doesn’t wash.
I do not, and never will, accept or respect a decision that demonstrably makes the lives of other people worse.
You want the respect and acceptance of others? Then do something to earn it.
But if not, don’t try to play the victim here. You’re not.
betrayal
Banned
You speak of strawman and at the same time distract from the actual topic. It is not about individual fates, such as your hatred of the unvaccinated, which probably only does you good, right? It's about society itself and how people interact with each other. It's about prejudices, respect and tolerance. If you can completely judge and condemn people based on a single decision with thousands of possible reasons, then you are part of the problem.
What selfish desires does an unvaccinated person have?
Vaccination protects very well against severe courses. In the UK, which distinguishes between vaccinated and unvaccinated in the statistics, there are demonstrably more infections among vaccinated than unvaccinated persons (see page 13, https://assets.publishing.service.g...849/Vaccine_surveillance_report_-_week_40.pdf). Most of the vaccinated are probably infected by people who have also been vaccinated.
So what danger do unvaccinated people pose? It's time to stop beating this dead horse.
What must people do to earn you respect and acceptance? Are there any options aside from having to adopt your opinion about a single topic?
And no, i'm not playing the victim. I am vaccinated and have been able to get other people to get vaccinated as well. But that doesn't make me a better, smarter, or morally elevated person, just as it doesn't make others lose my respect just because they still don't want to get vaccinated.
funkygunther
Banned
This is very simple. You say I'm part of the problem (which in itself is strange if this isn't about individual cases) but you are not defining the problem. That's why I asked for examples specifically to anti-vaxxers because you replied to someone talking about anti-vaxxers.
The thing is I'm repeating myself now because if I misunderstood and you don't want to talk about anti-vaxxers then we're back to:
funkygunther
Banned
they pose a danger to those whos hospital beds they end up taking, they pose a danger to any health system (or their insurance premiums) for any long-lasting symptoms, and they pose a greater risk to those that can't be vaccinated by being more likely to spread it
Boy bawang
Member
It does a pretty good job at that actually, through 2 different mechanisms, to summarize.
FIrstly, through regular antibodies, but those decrease pretty quickly and the protection against infection is markedly lower after 6-12 months. For immunocompromised people, this can be an issue, hence the necessity for them of a 3rd dose.
Secondly, while the viral load following an infection can be high even for a vaccinated person, this viral load decreases MUCH faster for vaccinated people thanks to the action of T lymphocytes, hence shortening the period during which someone is contagious, and also reducing the virus replication rate and thus the probability of seeing new variants emerging. So far, variants have emerged whenever the virus was circulating uncontrollably in a large, unvaccinated population (UK, South Africa, Brazil, and of course India). Also, that the action of T-lymphocytes prevents you from developing a severe Covid case, thus turning the disease into a common cold basically. As those T-cell will in all likelihood be in your body for several years, the interest of a booster shot for non-immunocompromised people is much more debatable. And indeed, the protection against hospitalization is still very solid almost a year after the large scale deployment of the first vaccines.
In my uneducated opinion, rather than distributing booster shots to people who don't really need them, it would be a smarter strategy to start vaccinating countries which are lagging behind, especially third world countries as it's been demonstrated that mRNA vaccines can actually be kept in a regular freezer for up to a month without degrading their properties. Or else, we'll live with the risk that a new dangerous variant would emerge rather sooner than later.
poppabk
Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
The one thing that really goes against this theory is China itself. If they knew it was a lab leak and were trying to hide it, why not just 'find' an animal source while doing all that testing.Give this a read from yesterday --
Opinion | Science Closes In on Covid’s Origins
Four studies—including two from WHO—provide powerful evidence favoring the lab-leak theory.
Guileless
Temp Banned for Remedial Purposes
Except for the chimeric coronaviruses created through gain of function research and insertion of furin cleavage sites designed to bind to human cell receptors in the lab in the city where the outbreak happened.
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