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[nominedomine]

Checking out this DF video showed that the GPU played little role in significantly improving performance. So whether the GPU is powerful or not the engine remains CPU bound. You'd figure this would be obvious when the comparisons of the various console platforms showed that no matter what platform you were on the game was sub 30 fps. The engine on XSS, XSX, and PS5 remain CPU bound.

That's my point, Jesus. The fact that it remains CPU bound on the Series S shows the degree to which this engine is CPU bound. Even with lower settings, rendering at a lower resolution the CPU is still seems to be what is holding it back from locking to 30 fps.

I'm not sure what are you trying to say but...

The GPU here is not an issue... I already explained to you.
No matter the GPU.. weaker, stronger, etc... it won't reach 60fps because the CPU is limiting it go over 30fps.
The CPU workload in Nanite/Lumen is not based in what setting you choose to the GPU.

If you have a very weaker GPU what will happen is that it won't reach even 30fps (it will stay at 10-20fps) because it will hit the GPU limitation before the CPU limitation that starts around 30fps.

That is what means CPU bound scenario... no matter the GPU (weaker, medium, high, etc) the CPU won't allow the performance increase.
It is like in PC when you get the same performance in 1080p or 720p (you decreased the GPU workload but the performance continue being limited by CPU).

You seem not to understand what CPU Bound really means.

Again, that wasn't my point. Every game is going to be CPU bound or GPU bound depending on the hardware, but the same game can be CPU bound on one hardware and GPU bound on another, this shouldn't be hard to understand.

All I made was a simple observation that it seems to remain CPU bound even with a much weak GPU like the one the Series S has and somehow you guys had an issue with that observation. It looks like if we were to run the demo on the same settings that the Series S run but on the Series X performance wouldn't improve much.

Anyone that ever had a PC that is struggling to run games should understand the concept.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

* Hosted by Gaf favorite Alex
* Sample of core UE5 technologies on display
* Some areas of Nanite are still in active development. Usage for Foliage and characters is in development right now.
* Hardware / Software Lumen look very similar but software isn't as accurate and misses character reflections. Hardware also traces much farther than software.
* Software also has trouble shading insides of things and night lighting is only captured in screen space. Hardware is accurate.

* Shader compilation issues present. After those clear up, you're still very CPU limited.
* Hardware Lumen is 32%~40% slower than Software.
* UE5 is very heavily single threaded. Processor frequency is more important for performance than number of cores.

* Mid range PCs are severely CPU limted, averaging 30 FPS but much worse during movement.
* Image breakup on console is worse than PC. Alex thinks TSR quality is better on the PC demo.
* Reflections etc is generally same as "High", shadow map quality is lower than PC's high/medium.
* PS5/SX/SS are CPU limited in the demo, hence the drops.

All these observations only hold true with respect to this very specific demo.

Using a single specific technology demo to draw sweeping conclusions about the entirety of UE5 is a mistake.

 

[nominedomine]

All these observations only hold true with respect to this very specific demo.

Using a single specific technology demo to draw sweeping conclusions about the entirety of UE5 is a mistake.

Hitting a stable 60 fps has been an issue with every demo so far.

 

[ethomaz]

All these observations only hold true with respect to this very specific demo.

Using a single specific technology demo to draw sweeping conclusions about the entirety of UE5 is a mistake.

I think the demo shows exactly what will happen when you enable Nanite/Lumen.

With these two disabled it is basically UE4.

 

[MikeM]

Lumen and Nanite are two promoted core features. They are pointless if the features miss the requirements of the market. Or do you really think people will start to focus on high end CPUs? World went for efficient multi core more than a decade ago. Vulkan and Dx12 are both focused around efficient ressource sharing. Of course CPUs become faster and more efficient and yes, it’s v5.0 and the first iteration. Still development seems far behind requirements considering that we are talking the two features Epics promotes since a year as „revolutionary“.

This is more forward thinking in terms of feature set (i.e. look what it can do, just not all at once right now). As they optimize the engine and hardware gets more performant, then you’ll see all these features in full force.

 

[yamaci17]

i'd be happy if equivalent cpus can perform similary to consoles

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

Hitting a stable 60 fps has been an issue with every demo so far.

Ok, but they're still demos. Which are small areas oft crafted in excruciating detail in a way that games (being developed against tight project timelines) aren't.

Being demos they also aren't optimised in any meaningful way, because they're only intended to be a showcase of various technologies and not a demonstration of the performance of those technologies when properly optimized in commercial games.

 

[kyliethicc]

On the bright side, very few UE5 games will even come close to looking like this demo.

So maybe 60 Hz will be okay.

 

[nominedomine]

Ok, but they're still demos. Which are small areas oft crafted in excruciating detail in a way that games (being developed against tight project timelines) aren't.

But that isn't what they are selling at all, they are selling the demo as an example of how easy it is to build games for UE5, but it seems to run like shit on current hardware while some important parts like Nanite for foliage and characters are yet to be implemented.

It just looks like it's being made to be capped at 30fps in the case of complex games and it doesn't look like it's ready to ship a game that looks like the demo.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

But that isn't what they are selling at all, they are selling the demo as an example of how easy it is to build games for Unreal 5, but seems to run like shit on current hardware while some important parts are yet to be implemented.

The engine doesn't run like shit. A game engine is simply a development suite of tools.

Devs can employ whatever rendering and physics tools they want within a game and make them run like shit. Or they can approach development smartly and optimise both the use of various technologies and their base assets to ensure a target performance level.

This is what happens when devs make commercial games. This is not what happens when a small group of engine devs make a demo in a week to showcase the shiny new engine tech.

 

[TonyK]

Matrix demo runs at 1080p 30fps in PS5 and that without real gameplay, and people here are expecting 60fps for Unreal 5 games in consoles?

 

[nominedomine]

The engine doesn't run like shit. A game engine is simply a development suite of tools.

Devs can employ whatever rendering and physics tools they want within a game and make them run like shit. Or they can approach development smartly and optimise both the use of various technologies and their base assets to ensure a target performance level.

This is what happens when devs make commercial games. This is not what happens when a small group of engine devs make a demo in a week to showcase the shiny new engine tech.

The whole selling point of Unreal Engine 5 is that devs don't have to worry about optimizing assets.

 

[FireFly]

The whole selling point of Unreal Engine 5 is that devs don't have to worry about optimizing assets.

Developers don't have to worry about their polygon budget when using Nanite. But they do have to worry about the impact of using A.I, procedural generation, physics, ray tracing, screen space effects, particles etc. And they also have to worry about the budget for non-Nanite assets (deformable objects, characters, etc.) That's why Coalition were brought on board to optimise the demo for Xbox.

 

[Dust-by-Monday]

But do you really think 30fps will become a thing again?

Absolutely. We aren't even out of the cross-gen phase of this generation yet. You really think the 60fps trend will continue with newer, more demanding engines?

 

[kyliethicc]

Matrix demo runs at 1080p 30fps in PS5 and that without real gameplay, and people here are expecting 60fps for Unreal 5 games in consoles?

More UE5 games will look like Fortnite (which is UE5) than the Matrix demo.

 

[Dust-by-Monday]

The XSS has the same CPU as the PS5 and XSX contrary to popular belief. If a game is CPU bound on the XSS it will be the same on higher resolution consoles.

Then why is the Series S outputting a 720p resolution?

 

[DenchDeckard]

Yeah, I think we will see games using UE5 but they won't look too much of a leap over UE4 if they are targeting 60 fps, which I'm hoping more games do. Gonna suck to go back to 30fps. I honestly don't think I can do it and I'll just have to skip more games.

 

[DukeNukem00]

Yeah, I think we will see games using UE5 but they won't look too much of a leap over UE4 if they are targeting 60 fps, which I'm hoping more games do. Gonna suck to go back to 30fps. I honestly don't think I can do it and I'll just have to skip more games.

Epic engineer said this was tailored to target 30 frames and its extremely heavy on single core cpu performance. Who knows what it will be in the future with actual games. Another reason for companies not to jump with both feet on this engine

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

The whole selling point of Unreal Engine 5 is that devs don't have to worry about optimizing assets.

You're conflating issues.

That is the main selling point of Nanite in particular. Nanite is but one of many new technologies UE5 brings. Devs can use UE5 and believe it or not, not use Nanite.

And the word you are looking for there is devs not having to "author" assets for different LOD levels.

Performance optimization is a completely separate thing and Epic has made no claims that UE5 will alleviate the need for devs to have to do performance optimisation for their games. Frankly, any such claim would be BS because it's impossible. Different hardware will run the same code differently. That's not an engine issue, it's a game optimisation per platform issue.

 

[nominedomine]

You're conflating issues.

That is the main selling point of Nanite in particular. Nanite is but one of many new technologies UE5 brings. Devs can use UE5 and believe it or not, not use Nanite.

And the word you are looking for there is devs not having to "author" assets for different LOD levels.

Performance optimization is a completely separate thing and Epic has made no claims that UE5 will alleviate the need for devs to have to do performance optimisation for their games. Frankly, any such claim would be BS because it's impossible. Different hardware will run the same code differently. That's not an engine issue, it's a game optimisation per platform issue.

That sounds like an Engine issue, the average dev isn't going to optimize beyond changing the assets and the amount of them at least as far as graphics are concerned.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

That sounds like an Engine issue, the average dev isn't going to optimize beyond changing the assets and the amount of them at least as far as graphics are concerned.

You're woefully misinformed.

Games development isn't the same as fiddling with a few parameters in a ".ini" file.

Devs absolutely do optimise their games and said optimisation encompasses more than just using lower fidelity assets and less of them.

 

[cinnamonandgravy]

UE5 is very heavily single threaded.

and any talk about how an engine "needs to use only one core" is fundamentally misinformed.

 

[SatansReverence]

Lightly threaded engine?

 

[iQuasarLV]

All I can say is if we revert to the goddamn narrow hallways and disguised loading cut scenes of Tomb Raider you can kiss my ass. I got so sick of that crap during the days of PS4. If I have to see any more games developed this way... All because Lumen and Nanite cripple themselves in the very engine they are marketed on.

Come TF on..

We have Sony and MS pushing hard SSD and multi-core baseline performance now. To see even a v.1 engine utilizing only 50% of available cores and focusing on frequency 150% is just, what, 2005 backwards thinking.

Sounds to me like Epic jumped the gun in announcing this stuff and never really got the new generational features truly off the ground and running. PR and marketing, I tell ya.

 

[Dr Bass]

2027 is very likely the release of the next-gen consoles.

You know ... Looking at that date I'm starting to think at that point I'm just gonna be too old for this [poop].

 

[TLZ]

Enjoy 60fps on console while it lasts, once Unreal 5 games start to release in 2027 it's right back to 30fps.

We'll have Nextgen consoles then.

 

[CrustyBritches]

It could be as simple as the demo being built with a 30fps target.

 

[DarkMage619]

Then why is the Series S outputting a 720p resolution?

Resolution is tied to the GPU. Framerate in this case is tied to the CPU. The XSS has a weaker GPU so the resolution is affected but based on the performance in this demo the CPU is the limiting factor here.

 

[Knightime_X]

I wonder if devs can still use UE5 but skip anything that is hindered by CPU?
Surely, UE5 itself isn't the hindrance, but some features used?

I don't want to go back to 30fps.
I'll happily take a loss in something is it means I get 60fps.

 

[kyliethicc]

Is UE5 avoiding using more than 1 to a few cores so it’s easy to run on phones? Since UE5 was built around Fortnite, a mobile game.

 

[Craig of War]

Matrix demo runs at 1080p 30fps in PS5 and that without real gameplay, and people here are expecting 60fps for Unreal 5 games in consoles?

Framrates were all over the place to it like Cyberpunk on Base last gen console bad lol
that why i never get excited for a tech demo anymore

 

[Haggard]

Using a single specific technology demo to draw sweeping conclusions about the entirety of UE5 is a mistake.

Dismissing a demo made by the engine creators themselves who should know how to get around the worst bottlenecks is a mistake.

Also, all demos so far had massive FPS issues......

 

[Thebonehead]

UE5 ~ Built for the 4090 @ 600w

 

[8BiTw0LF]

Absolutely. We aren't even out of the cross-gen phase of this generation yet. You really think the 60fps trend will continue with newer, more demanding engines?

Yes. Going forward there will always be an 60fps option.

 

[FireFly]

Dismissing a demo made by the engine creators themselves who should know how to get around the worst bottlenecks is a mistake.

Also, all demos so far had massive FPS issues......

The aim of the demo was to push the boundaries of what was possible visually, which is expected to come at the cost of framerate. We should judge engines by shipping products, not tech demos.

 

[ReBurn]

The aim of the demo was to push the boundaries of what was possible visually, which is expected to come at the cost of framerate.

I think most conversations show people are fine sacrificing visuals to preserve framerate. If the expectation is that it's going to go the other way then whoever is trying to set that expectation should probably not have that job.

 

[ethomaz]

That sounds like an Engine issue, the average dev isn't going to optimize beyond changing the assets and the amount of them at least as far as graphics are concerned.

Average devs needs to do a lot of optimizations no matter the engine used.

 

[ethomaz]

and any talk about how an engine "needs to use only one core" is fundamentally misinformed.

The claim you quarter is misinformed.

UE5 is a heavy multithreaded.
Except Nanite and Lumen are not.

And Engines can’t use all the cores… it needs to left a lot of resource for developer have their own tasks for game logic for example.

 

[lukilladog]

What a shitshow, maybe this will be a thing in the ps6 era.

 

[ethomaz]

Is UE5 avoiding using more than 1 to a few cores so it’s easy to run on phones? Since UE5 was built around Fortnite, a mobile game.

UE5 or previous can use a lot of cores.
It is even optimized for that.

 

[ethomaz]

I wonder if devs can still use UE5 but skip anything that is hindered by CPU?
Surely, UE5 itself isn't the hindrance, but some features used?

I don't want to go back to 30fps.
I'll happily take a loss in something is it means I get 60fps.

You can enable/disable Nanite or Lumen.
There is very little difference from UE4 if you do so.

The seeking point of UE5 are these new rendering techs.

 

[Hobbygaming]

But do you really think 30fps will become a thing again?

With current gen games, yes it will

 

[A.Romero]

I think most conversations show people are fine sacrificing visuals to preserve framerate. If the expectation is that it's going to go the other way then whoever is trying to set that expectation should probably not have that job.

I think this happens only because there haven't been big releases exclusive for new gen that really show the benefits of the trade off.

 

[8BiTw0LF]

With current gen games, yes it will

I don't think so. Maybe a handful of "cinematic" games will come out in only 30fps - but way over 90% of all games will have a 60fps option.

 

[ethomaz]

I think most conversations show people are fine sacrificing visuals to preserve framerate. If the expectation is that it's going to go the other way then whoever is trying to set that expectation should probably not have that job.

I can be wrong but I believe that only exists in tech or game focused forums/community.

Most people will buy games for the visuals without even know the performance and they will be fine with 30fps.

Visuals sells… performance not.

You will never see anybody saying that brought a game because it performs well.
But you will see a lot of guys buying games because it looks “fucking amazing”.

A game with Matrix demo visuals should sell tons.

 

[The_Mike]

But do you really think 30fps will become a thing again?

Of course it will.

Early xo and ps4 gen there were many 60 fps games, and Sony said that would be the new norm.

Until people cared more about still images than gameplay and motion.

30 fps will be a thing when cross gen slowly ends.

More games will be made exclusively to this gen. More eye candy screenshots to sell.

If you want to have control over how your games are played, then pc is the only option.

 

[RoadHazard]

Then why is the Series S outputting a 720p resolution?

Because resolution has nothing to do with the CPU. The GPU renders pixels, and the more floating point operations it can perform per second the more pixels it can render. This has zero effect on CPU load. The CPU handles mostly logical, branching code, such as AI, physics, collisions, etc. That takes as much CPU power no matter if you're rendering at 480p or 4K.

 

[ethomaz]

Of course it will.

Early xo and ps4 gen there were many 60 fps games, and Sony said that would be the new norm.

Until people cared more about still images than gameplay and motion.

30 fps will be a thing when cross gen slowly ends.

More games will be made exclusively to this gen. More eye candy screenshots to sell.

If you want to have control over how your games are played, then pc is the only option.

I agree.

30fps will be forever a thing in console space.

If you want really 60fps or more in all game you should go PC.

 

[RoadHazard]

Of course it will.

Early xo and ps4 gen there were many 60 fps games, and Sony said that would be the new norm.

Until people cared more about still images than gameplay and motion.

30 fps will be a thing when cross gen slowly ends.

More games will be made exclusively to this gen. More eye candy screenshots to sell.

If you want to have control over how your games are played, then pc is the only option.

Were there though? There definitely weren't as many 60fps games over as long a time period as we're seeing now, in large part due to cross-gen not being as big a thing for as long. Which, in turn, was because it wasn't as easy to make a game for both PS3 and PS4 (completely different architectures) as it is to make one for PS4 and PS5 (practically identical architectures).

I agree 60fps will become less and less common as the previous gen consoles are left behind though. Right now turning a 30fps PS4 game into a 60fps PS5 game is easy, because the CPU is much more powerful, but once developers really start taking advantage of that CPU it won't be as easy to just add a mode that runs everything twice as fast without impacting gameplay if it's already CPU limited at 30. If it's just GPU limited it's easier, because you can just drop the resolution, lighting, etc, to make it render a frame twice as fast.

 

[Hobbygaming]

I don't think so. Maybe a handful of "cinematic" games will come out in only 30fps - but way over 90% of all games will have a 60fps option.

Nope, way less than 90% will have 60fps