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Digital Foundry about XSX teraflops advantage : It's kinda all blowing up in the face of Xbox Series X
- Thread starter Bernoulli
- Start date
vaibhavpisal
Member
Series S redeemed?
jm89
Member
If only the series s only problem was teraflops.
diffusionx
Gold Member
even Digital Foundry is betraying us now....
Bernoulli
M2 slut
it does matter but it doesn't
you see cerny showed 2 GPUs with the exact same TF, he said he prefers one with lower CUs and higher clocks because it will be faster, while the bigger and slower GPU is hard to use all his slow CUs
Bernoulli
M2 slut
They were pushing it so hard and when it didn't materialize they blamed the "tools" and dev kitsThey are talking like they are not largely participated in creating this teraflops narrative
Topher
Gold Member
Teraflops are relevant when comparing processors (of the same architecture), but not overall systems. I think that is the lesson that should be learned going forward here. PS5 and XSX have different internal designs. Also different APIs. But yes, using teraflops as a marketing tool for console is completely useless.
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SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Sigh. Tflops do matter. If they didn’t, Sony would be releasing a 10 tflops ps5 pro with more secret sauce io and 50 gbps ssds instead. No, they will still up the tflops because that is literally the computing power of the gpu.
What ms did is create a gpu with obvious drawbacks and paired it up with a bizarre split ram solution. It’s a poorly designed console that needs to be criticized and studied to ensure same mistakes aren’t repeated. However, one poorly architected console shouldn’t be used to say that tflops don’t matter.
What ms did is create a gpu with obvious drawbacks and paired it up with a bizarre split ram solution. It’s a poorly designed console that needs to be criticized and studied to ensure same mistakes aren’t repeated. However, one poorly architected console shouldn’t be used to say that tflops don’t matter.
That's pretty much the same thing as Carmack pointed out years ago. If you have a choice between doubling the clock speed of a cpu or doubling the core count go with double the clock speed. It makes everything twice as fast where as doubling the core count makes some things twice as fast.
vaibhavpisal
Member
analog_future
Resident Crybaby
They were pushing it so hard and when it didn't materialize they blamed the "tools" and dev kits
I mean, this tweet is just as wrong, if not more wrong, than the teraflop argument ever was.
There's nothing about the PS5 that makes it "one of the most revolutionary home consoles ever designed".
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Weak GPU and they fucked up with the memory pool size and speed.
A completely unforced error, a silly own goal.
Should have been at least a 6TF GPU + VRAM at least at par with the One X.
Topher
Gold Member
And I don't think anyone lauded it as such so he would have lost that bet.
ReBurn
Gold Member
Not until that Ratchet and Clank PC thread anyway.
Buggy Loop
Member
The great DF betrayal
Topher
Gold Member
winjer
Gold Member
Of course TFLOPs matter. But it's just one metric, among many. And as such, it doesn't tell the whole story.
As usual, some journalists are too incompetent to realize what it means.
So at one point they focus too much on TFLOPs, and the next moment they claim it doesn't matter.
As usual, some journalists are too incompetent to realize what it means.
So at one point they focus too much on TFLOPs, and the next moment they claim it doesn't matter.
HeisenbergFX4
Gold Member
Have mentioned this for quite awhile but they really wont want to talk about TFs when the PS5 Pro launches as its going to look like a letdown
LavitzSlambert
Member
Theoretical estimations of compute have always been oversold at launch. It’s a tale as old as the gaming industry itself. At one point, early on, it did matter. And overall it still does matter but only past a certain threshold. 20% variance of total compute at the high end is not going to make a noticeable difference in the vast majority of games, especially early on. As always, power differences like this will present themselves at the end of the generation. PS2 was able to produce awesome looking games like MGS3 and Shadow of the Colossus, but it had to do tricks and still ran into performance problems. Compare that to later Xbox titles like Ninja Gaiden Black, Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory. Even Halo 2. There was a magnitude of difference between PS2’s 6.2 GFLOPS and Xbox’s 20.
It’s always about how the software and hardware interact, because limitations in one will bottleneck the other. This is why Apple produces powerful and efficient products, and Sony was right to take the same approach. Make it easy and economical to develop for your platform, and don’t necessarily just go for high end potential that most games just won’t use. And by the end of this gen, unless there are no hardware boosts in updated consoles, a 20% difference means absolutely nothing.
CanYouFlyBobby?
Banned
If teraflops don't matter what metric should we use?
Topher
Gold Member
That's good. I've never depended on TF to buy a GPU. I look at benchmarks comparing frame rates at specific resolutions. That's how I'll judge the Pro as well.
Actual gaming benchmarks.
ReBurn
Gold Member
I was joking. But sometimes it's hard to tell if people are serious when they say the game was better on PS5 because of its mystical I/O power.lol.....I must have missed those posts.
Topher
Gold Member
That's one side of the marketing hyperbole this gen. "World's most powerful console" was the other.
Thaedolus
Gold Member
The point is you shouldn’t use any single metric like TFLOPs or GHz to evaluate a system.
Team Andromeda
Member
We haven't even seen the Series X pushed yet bar Flight Sim.
PendekarRajawali
Member
Games, xbox needs games. Even MS own studios produce almost nothing.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
But it’s been three years and i have not seen anything revolutionary inspired. It’s been the same old stuff from the ps4 era.They were pushing it so hard and when it didn't materialize they blamed the "tools" and dev kits
Madserb2023
Member
I think it does matter, and not to be a contrarian but I do think it could be the API. Something doesn't add up about the Series X. The CPU is even faster. The ram is faster. Could be due to the ram being split but I am not sure. The PS5 isn't doing something exotic either, other than having a higher GPU clock but I have never seen this replicated with PC cards. If Sony really does have some magic custom hardware then they would say.
ReBurn
Gold Member
Yes. Teraflops isn't really a performance metric. It's a theoretical measure of throughout based on the type of floating point math you're doing. More likely than not the same processor will have different levels of throughput depending on whether you're doing single-precision or double-precision arithmetic and actual performance is impacted by power draw, heat, frequency...all of those things that affect efficiency. You have to look at it in context.
Xbox marketing was pretty silly to use TF as their most powerful console method.
Mokus
Member
I know about Cerny's explanation (even after 3 years). The reason is because in the previous generation the the PS4 had 18 CUs and PS4 Pro 36 CUs. The game engines were built and updated to work ideally with 18 CUs - and 36 for higher visual settings. This why, to my understanding, in the PS5 the 36 CUs at higher frequency was wiser, because anyway the existing game engines wouldn't be able to take full advantage of the even more CUs. Only later in the generation with new or updated game engines. But with higher frequency it's much easier to do it from the beginning in the console lifetime.
And now it's time for the PS5 Pro with more CUs because developers are switching/updating their tools for this generation.
*I might be very wrong about this, I have no experience in this, I'm only a gamer who can build his own PC
Lysandros
Member
And teraflop is only a constituent of a GPU's horsepower to begin with. There are other throughputs but DF seem to intentionally avoid mentioning the other pieces of the power puzzle since the beginning of the generation.
alphachino
Member
They aren’t really upping the tflops though. Increased tflops is just a byproduct of a more powerful system through wattage increase/more cores/higher efficiency/superior tech
youta
Member
alphachino
Member
It’s not that Sony have secret sauce, they just aren’t bogging down their system with layers upon layers of sub-optimal abstraction. Sony’s consoles allow easier access “to the metal” while on Xbox the whole OS is virtualised and encrypted through their highly inefficient (relatively speaking) hypervisor.
DuduIsDisappointed
Banned
We are not experiencing that because we have been plagued by cross gen games for 2 fucking years and main Sony studios are yet to show its true Power.They were pushing it so hard and when it didn't materialize they blamed the "tools" and dev kits
SpiderMan 2 is my only hope for now.
But I gotta say that the instant respawn after death in Demons Souls is amazing!
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DuduIsDisappointed
Banned
22-23tf is a letdown in your opinion?
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t_wilson01
Member
Well said. Xbox wanted to have a bigger TF number, regardless of what needed to be sacrificed in order to achieve it.
DF lost my respect years ago with all the damage control they did for the Xbox One. Now it seems that they're doing preemptive damage control before the arrival of a PS5 Pro.
The Series S GPU being that small means it should've been close to the PS5 in terms of frequency and a 192 bit bus so would be much closer to the XboneX with regards to fill rate and bandwidth.
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