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[alstein]

I'm not really interested in the casual market at all with fighting games.

My post was from the perspective of someone that actually wants to seek out and learn games. Why are 2D games so much more popular than 3D at tournaments?



So basically what I take from this is that I mistook my personal familiarity with 2D fundamentals as intuitiveness.(being able to press buttons and discern their utility quickly) From this it seems like 3D games have a very basic fundamental flow and universal tool logic/utility as well. I just didn't know about it.

So that throws my idea out the window.

Tekken was really popular once. Its popularity died out this gen my belief is the game grew too large for players for digest, a combination of too many characters * too much effort to learn character-specific-stuff * huge execution barriers. What makes Tekken a great game is still there, it's just hidden behind a lot of stuff.

The big test for Tekken is going to come with their next mainline game, as they have to make some big SF2-SF3 type changes, it's going to be hard to have Tekken veterans accept those changes.

 

[Coda]

mmmm look at that.



Bayo2 is getting me so hard. also MH3U is only so fun offline on 3DS :/
Also monkey kong country and W101 and mario 3d world.

And I just found out you can transfer your Wii VC stuff over and I have some really good games on there. So i can just make the switch I think.

I have a Wii U, couldn't recommend it more. But it is a Bayonetta 2 machine for me just because out of all the good games out on it, the only one I really care about is Bayo 2.

 

[kirblar]

Tekken was really popular once. Its popularity died out this gen my belief is the game grew too large for players for digest, a combination of too many characters * too much effort to learn character-specific-stuff * huge execution barriers. What makes Tekken a great game is still there, it's just hidden behind a lot of stuff.

The big test for Tekken is going to come with their next mainline game, as they have to make some big SF2-SF3 type changes, it's going to be hard to have Tekken veterans accept those changes.

I suspect TxSF is viewed as very important for them internally - its a game where they can experiment with those types of large overhaul changes.

 

[dtg]

As someone who liked fighters before 2009 this is funny to hear. I mean, I have memories of trying to get my tekken friends to play alpha 3 with the response being, "you can't combo in this game." And it makes sense because juggles in tekken are easier to wrap your head around instead of chains, links, canceling into supers, etc.

There's nothing about current Street Fighter that's more friendly to the masses other than it being fun to watch. Since the ip is the current genre leader, people find reasons to justify how it's designed after they're in love with the game, not before.

My friends and I would always casually play Tekken or Soul Calibur (on consoles) too. Other than Smash, it was always 3D fighters. IIRC none of us knew any advanced mechanics besides buttons do stuff and would mash a lot. There wasn't much interest in 2D fighters in my group, and I never remembered reading about them in magazines. We would go to rent games, and one time we almost rented Alpha 3 and then decided against it.

Looking back on it, IDK how any of us would have known, half the information isn't in the game besides movelists. It's like trying to play Dota without having access to a wiki or strategy guide.

 

[MikeBreezy92]

I suspect TxSF is viewed as very important for them internally - its a game where they can experiment with those types of large overhaul changes.

Tekken Revolution is closest to that already. Some of the system changes in that may carry over I suspect.

TxSF...I don't think its gonna do much of anything at all....

 

[oneida]

My friends and I would always casually play Tekken or Soul Calibur (on consoles) too. Other than Smash, it was always 3D fighters. IIRC none of us knew any advanced mechanics besides buttons do stuff and would mash a lot.

Looking back on it, IDK how any of us would have known, half the information isn't in the game besides movelists. It's like trying to play Dota without having access to a wiki or strategy guide.

count me in on this. I was playing vf2 on Saturn, doa2 and soul calibur on dreamcast for years before playing SFII. actually I think my first encounter with a 2d fighter was a demo of Alpha 3 on one of the DC magazine demo discs.

and those 3d fighters? i was mashin'

 

[theprodigy]

idk what you guys are talking about, movement in VF is like butter once you know how to do it.

I think I'm gonna buy a Wii U

make sure to make a random SmashGAF member ragequit at least once

 

[Anth0ny]

didn't tekken sell like a billion copies on ps1

 

[oneida]

make sure to make a random SmashGAF member ragequit at least once

is SmashGAF anti competitive?

 

[kirblar]

count me in on this. I was playing vf2 on Saturn, doa2 and soul calibur on dreamcast for years before playing SFII. actually I think my first encounter with a 2d fighter was a demo of Alpha 3 on one of the DC magazine demo discs.

and those 3d fighters? i was mashin'

T3 Eddie was so good as a character simply because he made a noob feel like they were doing something really good. Mashability isn't a bad thing.

 

[DryEyeRelief]

If you want to reduce it to that, yeah, but it's a big composite of superior, distinct and appealing character design,

Subjective

international appeal,

By international appeal you mean popularity in the US, right?

brand strength and simplicity in mechanics. When you see any mainstream depiction of a fighting game, it's a SF-esque set up.

brand didn't mean shit in between the years of 1999 to 2008. The best you could hope for Street Fighter were old re releases and compilations. It certainly didn't save the Street Fighter EX series. You might as well be tooting about the brand strength of pac man.

I can pull exact opposites to your Tekken anecdotes too with some of my own. How friendly it is to watch means so little in the grand scheme of things if you think about how little people actually watch fighting games.

Um... "Fun to watch" doesn't mean siting in front of a computer screen watching tournaments on twitch. It means watching the trailer of SFIV in the summer of 2008 E3 and going ooh and ahh at the ultra combo animations.

 

[kirblar]

The 2D games entered the dark ages primarily because the arcade games couldn't be ported to (successful) home consoles. The 3D games could, and thus thrived in that era.

 

[theprodigy]

is SmashGAF anti competitive?

fine
a random SmashGAF member that preferred Brawl's pace

edit: by which I mean you play like it's Brawl and time them out

 

[oneida]

fine
a random SmashGAF member that preferred Brawl's pace

I haven't played a smash bros game since 64 but if it'll make someone cry I'll do it.

 

[Dahbomb]

T3 Eddie was so good as a character simply because he made a noob feel like they were doing something really good. Mashability isn't a bad thing.

You can still do that with Eddie now.

You can still mash in Tekken like you could in Tekken 3. The difference is that people have become more aware of the high end stuff in the game.

Tekken like most fighting games is fun as hell at entry level mashing with friends until someone comes in and beats you while doing 60% combos. At that point you either stick around and try to learn or just get fed up from losing all the time.

 

[DryEyeRelief]

You don't need combos to play Street Fighter casually.

I'm aware of that. Have you heard of my rants about how combos just appeal to the lowest common denominator? This was part of it. Back then, it was much easier to do "ridiculous" or "cool" looking stuff in Tekken, hence its appeal. You know how people complain about QCF motions being too complicated? This isn't a new thing. It's just we're so drowned in competitive SF that it seems like nonsense to us.

It's a far simpler game to get into - the depth comes later.

Well since I'm talking about mass appeal, it's not really a matter of depth.
Secondly, you're comparing TTT2 to SFIV. I'm comparing Tekken 3 to Alpha 3 and CVS2.

The 2D games entered the dark ages primarily because the arcade games couldn't be ported to (successful) home consoles. The 3D games could, and thus thrived in that era.

No, trust me. It was because of sprites.

 

[kirblar]

No, trust me. It was because of sprites.

Er... yes? Because only Dreamcast could actually handle the arcade ports. PS1/N64 couldn't and it ruined the ability for the games to reach the home market as the arcades died off.

If you think "combos" are lowest common denominator, I don't think you understand what the LCD for FGs really is.

 

[SixMachine]

I think a lot of combos in modern games have become too bloated. Personally the most interesting part of a combo is how it's started and the followup response to it when it ends. Like when people can get a lengthy combo and huge damage off jabs, even if there is scaling it just seems like it's getting crazier as time goes by.

 

[DryEyeRelief]

Er... yes? Because only Dreamcast could actually handle the arcade ports. PS1/N64 couldn't and it ruined the ability for the games to reach the home market as the arcades died off.

What I'm saying is even if those games had been given ports, it wouldn't have made a difference. Read back at what SixFortyFive had to say about 3s

If you think "combos" are lowest common denominator, I don't think you understand what the LCD for FGs really is.

Enlighten me because I'm not suggesting competence.

 

[kirblar]

What I'm saying is even if those games had been given ports, it wouldn't have made a difference. Read back at what SixFortyFive had to say about 3s



Enlighten me because I'm not suggesting competence.

3S had its own set of issues. MvC2 was plenty accessible at low levels (me and my sister were terrible at it yet played it all the time.) But it, 3S and the DS series were essentially killed off by the PS1-forward era until the SF4 revival.

You don't need combos. You just need single hits. That's where SF excels. Fierces/Sweeps, jump roundhouses all do significant damage (and j.RH into Sweep is basically the beginner combo of choice.) It's what makes the game work on day 1 when players don't even know how to throw a fireball. The interactive and mental game is right there, even if the players are just randomly throwing things out to see if they work.

 

[Rice-Eater]

You don't need combos in any fighting game to play casually.

Yeah you do, my bnb in with Ryu in SF games from 92 to early 2009 was jump kick > sweep. That's what me and all my friends and cousins did in practically ever SF game. It was easy and gave us a knockdown, and it seemed safe as far as we can tell. We never punished each other for it, had no idea if we could since we never upped our game.Then I finally realized how unsafe it was in SF4 when I got punished for doing it for the 1000th time.

So maybe it's not required, but everybody learns this most basic combo.

 

[Infinite]

But beyond that combos do empower even casual gamers and help them get more out of the game. My family and I all played the shit out of soul Calibur and we all went into training mode to figure out what our characters can do so the game can be more interesting to us. Also since we were all playing there was competition and we felt like we needed to master our characters to best each other. We were still playing for fun and only on weekenders and none of them entered tournaments or cared about advance tech and what not. I'm just saying combos and things of that nature may not be essentially for casual play but it does broaden the experience and may even turn a casual into a hardcore player.

 

[kirblar]

But beyond that combos do empower even casual gamers and help them get more out of the game. My family and I all played the shit out of soul Calibur and we all went into training mode to figure out what our characters can do so the game can be more interesting to us. Also since we were all playing there was competition and we felt like we needed to master our characters to best each other. We were still playing for fun and only on weekenders and none of them entered tournaments are cared about advance tech and what not. I'm just saying combos and things of that nature may not be essentially for casual play but it does broaden the experience and may even turn a casual into a hardcore player.

We're not saying they don't - just that they're not necessary to pick up and enjoy the game initially.

 

[DryEyeRelief]

You don't need combos. You just need single hits. That's where SF excels. Fierces/Sweeps, jump roundhouses all do significant damage (and j.RH into Sweep is basically the beginner combo of choice.) It's what makes the game work on day 1 when players don't even know how to throw a fireball. The interactive and mental game is right there, even if the players are just randomly throwing things out to see if they work.

You're not differentiating your own personal experiences with what the market demanded at that time. You played MvC2 but you can't say that was a popular game. And no, it's not because it was on the Dreamcast.

 

[kirblar]

You're not differentiating your own personal experiences with what the market demanded at that time. You played MvC2 but you can't say that was a popular game. And no, it's not because it was on the Dreamcast.

None of the games were popular because none of them were available to the majority of gamers of that time. Just like SF missed the Latin markets in the early years because KOF was everywhere instead.

 

[casperOne]

FGW | Cosmos - Neil deGrasse Tyson answers the question "what is universal?"

 

[DryEyeRelief]

None of the games were popular because none of them were available to the majority of gamers of that time. Just like SF missed the Latin markets in the early years because KOF was everywhere instead.

What other games did you play on Dreamcast, I'm really curious

 

[Infinite]

We're not saying they don't - just that they're not necessary to pick up and enjoy the game initially.

I'm agreeing just offering my two cents but I won't say that combos are irrelevant to casuals and I feel like that's what some people are saying.

I think the one of biggest issues the genre hasis getting the pot monsters to not drop the game. Some games do this better than others.

 

[kirblar]

What other games did you play on Dreamcast, I'm really curious

Shenmue (didn't really get into it like other people), that weird fish game, Sonic Adventure 1/2, off the top of my head. Definitely others.

My (younger) sister liked MvC2 in large part because she could one button hyper off the trigger, in addition to knowing a lot of the characters from X-Men TV and other games.

 

[Dahbomb]

I was about to say sprites but that point was already brought up.

Casuals really don't like sprites.

And I don't know what the Dreamcast has to with anything here.

 

[Coda]

I think Project Justice is one of the most fun 3D fighters out there. It seems that most people here think it's a bit too easy/simplistic and this might be true but I still loved how it had mid-battle duels for Supers and it had enough moves to make it somewhat competitive, not on a tournament level really but that game was so much fun; especially indoor stages that allowed you to launch people to the roof and smash them harder against it.

 

[Infinite]

I owned all the big 3D fighters for my consoles and played them all with my family casually. Even DoA and Virtua Fighter. Since I got into playing competitively the only one I actually learned was Soul Calibur.

 

[DryEyeRelief]

And I don't know what the Dreamcast has to with anything here.

it almost killed street fighter.

 

[Dahbomb]

it almost killed street fighter.

How so? I am genuinely curious about this.

 

[Chindogg]

I used to play Tekken 3 and TTT in arcade tournaments all the time. For me, Tekken 4 killed Tekken for me. Jin and Steve were just unfun to play against and boring to play as. When I tried to get into later Tekkens, I just wasn't a fan of the newer systems like walls, bounds, etc.

This is just my opinion, but Tekken just got too complicated overall. I used to just focus on movement and execution but now if I try to get into later Tekkens I have to memorize all sorts of matchup and frame data. That's just too much for me in general.

 

[SloaneRisette]

I haven't played a smash bros game since 64 but if it'll make someone cry I'll do it.

The best Smash game

Get at me bruhs

 

[sixteen-bit]

The best Smash game

Get at me bruhs

dat hitstop

dem combos

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPR4xAPXf28

 

[SloaneRisette]

dat hitstop

dem combos

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPR4xAPXf28

Just watch any video Isai is in

Da best

 

[Dahbomb]

I used to play Tekken 3 and TTT in arcade tournaments all the time. For me, Tekken 4 killed Tekken for me. Jin and Steve were just unfun to play against and boring to play as. When I tried to get into later Tekkens, I just wasn't a fan of the newer systems like walls, bounds, etc.

This is just my opinion, but Tekken just got too complicated overall. I used to just focus on movement and execution but now if I try to get into later Tekkens I have to memorize all sorts of matchup and frame data. That's just too much for me in general.

I sort of agree with this but I left after Tekken 5.

I was very disappointed by Tekken 4 and had almost sworn off the game. Then I played Tekken 5 and it gave me that feeling of going from DMC2 to DMC3. I played it very hardcore, competitively in fact. Then during the console generation change I wasn't too enthralled by Tekken 6 and it's changes. I didn't have a console and by the time I did the hype for Tekken fell and very few people in my community played it. And then I moved so I never really played much of T6. Plus SF4/MVC3 stole a lot of T6 thunder as those games were fresh (at the minimum because of moving from sprites to 3D) and T6 was more of the same.

I will probably get into the next Tekken game though but at this point I am really scared. I feel like skipping out on 2 games would mean I missed out on a lot of stuff. Unless there's a soft reset in Tekken 7 like many people are predicting or in TxSF.

 

[Chindogg]

I sort of agree with this but I left after Tekken 5.

I was very disappointed by Tekken 4 and had almost sworn off the game. Then I played Tekken 5 and it gave me that feeling of going from DMC2 to DMC3. I played it very hardcore, competitively in fact. Then during the console generation change I wasn't too enthralled by Tekken 6 and it's changes. I didn't have a console and by the time I did the hype for Tekken fell and very few people in my community played it. And then I moved so I never really played much of T6. Plus SF4/MVC3 stole a lot of T6 thunder as those games were fresh (at the minimum because of moving from sprites to 3D) and T6 was more of the same.

I will probably get into the next Tekken game though but at this point I am really scared. I feel like skipping out on 2 games would mean I missed out on a lot of stuff. Unless there's a soft reset in Tekken 7 like many people are predicting or in TxSF.

I hear a lot of good things about Tekken Revolution, but I don't own a PS3 to know anything about it.

Honestly I feel if they just made Tekken 3's system with walls it'd go back to being popular. It's never fun when the game becomes single player on counterhit. Also, give me legitimate chain throws again. I miss them so much from T3 lol.

 

[Kaleinc]

You don't need combos in any fighting game to play casually.

And at the same time the game gives you combos even if you can't pull off any, like multi hit throws or specials.

 

[Dahbomb]

They can't just use the Tekken 3 system because stuff like low block stagger, crush moves and low parry were good stuff. As were stuff like easier throw breaks in Tekken 5. Also damage from random hits was insane in Tekken 3, like half life taken from eating a counter hit Paul Death Fist (LOL!).

I can live without Rage mechanic and long ass combos though.

 

[CountBlack]

Jesus.. the Cod Championships are playing for $400,000

 

[WesternHeretic]

Tekken like most fighting games is fun as hell at entry level mashing with friends until someone comes in and beats you while doing 60% combos. At that point you either stick around and try to learn or just get fed up from losing all the time.

I tried to get my non fgc friends into fighting games and once I did 1 combo they all quit.

... note to self if you're going to get people into fighting games don't destroy them..They all went back to their NBA2K, and COD.... Yawns.

 

[theprodigy]

Jesus.. the Cod Championships are playing for $400,000

where

 

[mbpm1]

I tried to get my non fgc friends into fighting games and once I did 1 combo they all quit.

Was it super damaging and taking up 10 seconds to execute?

 

[Passive Assassin]

https://download-ssl.xbox.com/conte...od032014.html?content=live1&playerId=cod_2014 looks like complexity just won.

 

[dtg]

Jesus.. the Cod Championships are playing for $400,000

What's amazing for me is it's hard for me to find the community online. I just don't know where the cod comp scene hangs out at. There's no thread on gaf to my knowledge, and nothing ever pops up on reddit. I see it on Twitch, but other than that, I have no idea. I should check over on Gamebattles.

 

[kirblar]

"We're just going to dogpile new stuff on top of all the old" as your iterative design strategy creates massive issues with acquiring and retaining new players.

 

[call_kotaku]

I can live without Rage mechanic and long ass combos though.

I can't tell if you're sarcastic