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Final Fantasy is going through a Midlife Identity Crisis - Opinion

Gambit2483

Member
FF 7 Remake is one of the only things that they have done well in the past 20 years regarding FF. In a way, that's what I wanted FF 16 to be. It's written in my text.
Oh In that case I'll still have actually play FF16 before I can agree.

That said, here's hoping the Kingdom Hearts-esqe complete action aspect of the combat doesn't ruin the "feel" of the series.
 

Azelover

Titanic was called the Ship of Dreams, and it was. It really was.
I disagree. After years of Nomura J-pop fantasy garbage, Square-Enix is finally back on track with a proper Final Fantasy.
I hope so. If this somehow has turn based battles I'm totally in..
 
I hope Square Enix revives that cancelled soulslike game 'Final Fantasy Fortress' and makes it into FF 17.
maxresdefault.jpg
 

Northeastmonk

Gold Member
Seeing the Phoenix fly like that, the crazy combos with projectile magic, and razor wire going all over the place kinda changed my mind. It looks sick. I do understand the lack there of in terms of what we grew up with. It sticks out for sure.
 

Fbh

Member
Seeing the Phoenix fly like that, the crazy combos with projectile magic, and razor wire going all over the place kinda changed my mind. It looks sick. I do understand the lack there of in terms of what we grew up with. It sticks out for sure.

I've seen some people complain about the summons and flashness but IMO they are totally in line with the older game.
tfBzVQ.gif

auXsA7J.gif


Except instead of watching the same static animation over and over again they are now part of playable and dynamic real time fights.
 

Loomy

Thinks Microaggressions are Real
It's not a flawed opinion. Its just one that you don't like either because you don't agree, or because you like FF 16 and don't like to see people with a different take.
I can't like FF16. It might as well not exist yet. After I play it in June, I'll know if I like it. I think your opinion is taking several leaps and making some weird assumptions. This is not the first different final fantasy. It for sure will not be the last.

Honestly, I wished that Nomura would tackle a mainline FF game, as FF 7 Remake was perfect. And as having been involved with the franchise ever since 6, I believe he would be better suited to balance the new stuff, with what FF is known for. But it's just my opinion(If I don't say that, people get offended for some reason).
The last time Nomura was solely responsible for a mainline FF game, Versus turned into 15.
 

IFireflyl

Gold Member
Anyone who is a devotee to what Final Fantasy used to stand for will look at this and feel like the company doesn’t care about what they want. And for Square Enix, having lost that safety net, they will basically need to convince an entirely new audience to buy that game because they are no longer catering to their old, faithful audience, instead of making something that would be a true evolution and potentially appealing to both, as Zelda and God of War did, like FF 7 Remake was.

I do think that, without considering it part of one of the oldest gaming franchises around, Final Fantasy 16 will probably be a great game. Excellent, even. But this is a Final Fantasy game only in name, and I am left scratching my head wondering what Square was thinking by naming this game FF 16 instead of just making it its own original IP, which would make the game a much easier sell to anyone, as it wouldn’t leave a bad taste in anyone’s mouth. One day, I hope Square rediscovers what Final Fantasy stands for. But until then, I will be looking elsewhere for the itch the older games of this franchise used to scratch.

Square Enix has never known what it wants. Full stop. SquareSoft was the one behind everything good from all of the great (non-MMO) Final Fantasy games. Square Enix came in and radically changed Final Fantasy. They started this with Final Fantasy XII which mixed MMO gameplay into a single-player game (why??). Due to this real-time-esque change, they removed the ability to pick the actions for each character's turn as the non-primary character would act on their own. Every Final Fantasy game since then has followed suit (remasters not included, obviously).
 

Jinzo Prime

Member
I'm being honest. The moment I get afraid(or something to that effect) about posting my honest feeling on gaming topics on a gaming forum that I have jjoined just for that, it's the same day that I'll quit for hanging here. It's just like when videogamedunkey announced when he was going into publishing: Everyone was bitching baout him being a publisher, and calling him all sorts of names. But he has the balls from standing up from the chair and doing something about what he feels strongly about, while the people that keep belittleling him and those arm chair analysts that know better, but never act on any of it and prefer the safety of their chair. I am putting my opinion out there, and not calling others out for just doing that. So I'll never be ashamed of that.

I want new games with new things in the foundations that said franchise has built upon. Like BOTW. Anyone who played that would say to you, in straight face, that is Zelda through and through. But at the same time, it is a new experience. That's what I want out of FF. To feel like FF but still being a fresh experience, and FF 16 is not. It seems that you didn't even bother to read what I wrote. Which is to be expected, given how defensive you are being about validating your opinion on this game.

And I am playing them. And they are not nostalgia games, they are brand new games being made in mind with a specific audience. FF has not moved on, it has been chasing trends for the past 20 years, and look where that has gotten them into. It managed to sold as well as Zelda, and now Zelda sells 3 times the amount that any FF game does, without turning into something that it is not.
This is much better and more understandable than your original post. I can actually see your point of view here, but I hope that you can see that the guys making FF 16 love classic Final Fantasy as well, but are under pressure to make sound business decisions. It's clear to me they are attempting to usher in new fans by showing them all the cool and unique things about Final Fantasy; summons, Crystals, magic, Chocobos, airships, etc., in one big theme park of a game.

They want the broadest appeal possible to keep the lights on, but hopefully they branch out from there to make more traditional games that appeal to a smaller core audience.
 

Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
It looks fine to me, and Final Fantasy 7 Remake was fucking amazing. I used to shit on Sqeenix quite a lot, but they're semi-redeemed in my eyes.
 

Clear

CliffyB's Cock Holster
Its pretty simple; FF7 was a turning point for the franchise, because it crystallized (no pun intended) into a product bigger than its genre.

It broke through and attracted players who hitherto had no interest in JRPGS, people who were drawn in by the grandness of spectacle and storytelling that it offered.

And the truth is, Square/SE have been chasing that "high" ever since.

Sure, they've maintained a throughline in terms of iconography and bestiary, but really that the extravagant presentation is what they see as defining the (mainline) series. And unfortunately as production costs have ballooned over the years, the expense of mounting the spectacle has forced them to try and make the gameplay as mass-market friendly as they can.

Agree or not the consensus viewpoint within the industry is that a turn-based approach is more niche than a real-time one, so they've been struggling to square (again, no pun intended) the economic requirements with the desire to keep the franchise true to itself creatively. So, they've been trying to kind of refashion that traditional strategic gameplay into something more appealing to a casual market... and once you start down that road the logical endpoint was going to be an action-game type of format.

The reality is I don't see them ever going back; especially now they have the nostalgia market somewhat covered by the FF7 remake sub-franchise.
 
Do they want to make a great Final Fantasy game, or do they want to make a beautiful game that chases the latest trends?
The second one. They are definitely followers now.

I fear that the only reason Final Fantasy 7 Remake was such a wonderful and worthy addition to the franchise was because it had an anchor: the original Final Fantasy 7 and the expectations of both fans and developers to honor its legacy. Thanks to this, I feel like we got a perfect balance between taking the DNA of what Final Fantasy is, using almost 30 years of innovation to make it fresh again, but without Square’s apparently innate fear of missing out on potential sales by not adapting to trends and systems that seem more “popular” today.
That's how I felt too although a lot of people have very different takes on FF7R, and they will likely screw all that up and over-indulge their more pretentious side with embarrassing meta twists that ruin everything in part 2 because Square.

The FF we loved is dead. Enjoy the very pretty action game with fancy summons and cringey drama and look to other developers like Atlus and Monoliftsoft for the future of epic jrpg adventures.

Given their modern day ineptitude at making interesting characters and scenarios, the best we could hope for from them with regards to getting something that feels up to date but also like a Final Fantasy game would be if Squeenix did high quality remakes of all their old games, capcom style, which would probably take about 7 years per game.
 

ANDS

King of Gaslighting
Final Fantasy XIV gets "shine" because it deserves it. Its stories (plural) aren't "not terrible." They're some of the best in the RPG genre in general.

I mean. If you said the JRPG genre, then absolutely, I'd agree. But RPG's in general? Like. . .in general. Which includes the likes of Baldur's Gate, Morrowind, Deus Ex, Fallout: New Vegas, The Witcha 3, Dragon Quest 8, KOTOR?

. . .okay then.

I disagree. After years of Nomura J-pop fantasy garbage, Square-Enix is finally back on track with a proper Final Fantasy.

Absolutely no one is asking for this. Like this is when the griping started, where little by little the remove what made the series so good: the whimsy (to the self-serious), the strategic (to the pattern match), the sense of freedom (to controlled independence). . .and finally the fantasy (for the neo-fantastic). As maligned as FF12 is, I bet a whole bucket load of FF fans would love a return to the spirit of the game than the modern output we've been getting.

I will 100% be in on this game at launch, especially if it has a decent world with enough to discover in the cracks, but I'll be darned if I wasn't lamenting where this IP has landed.
 
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Just remove staggering and have normal attacks do more than 1 damage and you’ll have made FF16 a must play for me. I don’t mind a new battle system, just don’t take the piss with even minor enemies taking a lot of effort to kill, respect my time and I’ll give it to you :) x
 

Sophist

Member
IIRC, Hironobu Sakaguchi, the creator of the series, considers FF9 to be the definitive game of what Final Fantasy should be about. Sakaguchi latest game, Fantasian, has strong FF vibes and was well-received (i haven't played it yet, only available on Apple devices).

gameplay:
 

Madflavor

Member
Just remove staggering and have normal attacks do more than 1 damage and you’ll have made FF16 a must play for me. I don’t mind a new battle system, just don’t take the piss with even minor enemies taking a lot of effort to kill, respect my time and I’ll give it to you :) x

I doubt it'll be like that in the game. Gameplay presentations sometimes heavily alter the gameplay to showcase the game. FFXIV is showcasing early - mid game areas, but the movesets look devastating and flashy as fuck. I would not be the least bit surprised if they buffed the health of even minor enemies, just for the previews, so they can showcase the flashier higher level movesets from Clive without immediately deleting the enemies. Also take the Benedikta fight. It's suppose to be an early game boss, she's Garuda, and yet Clive already has Garuda's moveset in the battle.
 

Yoboman

Member
No the DNA of Final Fantasy has always been about new worlds, new characters and larger than life stakes. Risks with art style, settings and fundamental changes. Embedding that within a few retained traits like recurring themes, monsters and character names.

Nobody ever picked up a Final Fantasy for the latest turn based battle system and if you think they have you are lying to yourself. Its always been a means to an end, rather than a selling point

The fact it might actually have a combat system people enjoy for its own merits (like they do for Souls games, DMC, God og War etc) could make it one of the best FFs ever if they nail other parts
 

Gobjuduck

Banned
FF16 looks rad, but it’s not a mainline ff. The game is more Bayonetta and DMC than final fantasy.

It’s a departure from what the games have established, but that’s up you if it’s upsetting.
 

Doomtrain

Member
I absolutely love old-school FF. I would be beyond thrilled if we got a new mainline FF game in the mold of one of the SNES games, but with a modern AAA budget and tech. But FF reinvents itself constantly, and having been on forums for 25+ years at this point, I've seen complaints like this for literally every FF since VII.

I recall people back in the day who were worried that FFVII "wasn't FF" because being a top-down RPG was core to FF's identity. This seems quaint now, but it was a genuine fear people had once FF went to PlayStation.

For FFVIII, people were upset that the game didn't use traditional equipment, and that enemies scaled with the party, and that you didn't get Gil from killing monsters. I even remember people being upset that the dialogue boxes were gray and not blue.

FFX got huge amounts of hate for abandoning the previously-traditional scaled world map you could walk around on, and for its linearity in general.

The complaint about XII at the time was that it "played itself" and was "an offline MMO." People were afraid that the game would barely be interactive. Even Penny Arcade made fun of it:

20060908-rrbFVII7@2x.jpg


I suspect if you went far enough back, you'd find people freaking out about that newfangled ATB that they were putting in FFIV, and how "real" RPG's were supposed to give you unlimited time to make your choices.

This is what FF does. It changes, potentially more than any other series of its stature. And every single time, some people love those changes, and some people feel left behind by them. Both are legitimate perspectives (again, I wish they'd go back to ATB and traditional job systems, personally!), but no one should be surprised by this anymore.

As far as whether or not FFXVI will be a strategic game, that's hard to say without playing it. Action games have their own elements of strategy that are hard to translate to turn-based games, such as spacing, positioning, and timing. And I'd be hard-pressed at this point to say that older FF games are particularly strategic, as far as RPG's go: apply buffs, use spells the enemy is elementally weak to/mash Attack, rinse, repeat. We've all done that a million times and I don't think anyone is breaking their brain playing FF in the same way they would playing, I don't know, a good CCG.

Additionally, there's nothing inherently "more" strategic about picking options from a menu while a game is paused vs. executing them in real time; the question is, what are the options that are available to you as a player? I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that FFXVI has buffs, debuffs, elemental weaknesses, etc. on par with prior FF games, and we already know that it has accessories and gear. If XVI ultimately offers players the same options older FF games does, does it matter what inputs you use to perform them?

Finally, the obligatory "no one here has played the game yet." I remember thinking VIII and XIII looked amazing from the trailers, and they both ended up being among my least-favorite FF games. I thought XIV looked bad until I played it, and now I love it. We'll see what happens at launch, but I doubt things will be as cut-and-dry as some people think.
 

Kumomeme

Member
they never confused. they know what they want. it is not identity issue. it is searching for working right of the model/formula issue. it just they being searching for right formula since HD era game development. since then, game development is changing. their old method, old same formula not feasible anymore. scope, size and cost also bigger. they need to find middle ground. not to mention while all this happened, new generation of gamers grow up with different gaming trends. so amidst trying to adapt to modern game development, they also need to adapt to market trend change and the industry change alot, fast even within 5 years and they need to catch up and adapt.

since PS360 era they been searching a way to ease up their development. Crystal Tools fiasco simply make things worse and set them back. they simply dont want to take same gamble with Luminous Engine development that time. different story if UE3 is accessible to them much earlier like how UE4 did toward japanese developers.

to be fair all of this issue also used to plagued lot of japanese developers that time.

by PS4 era we see they slowly gained their step with third party engine while the industry is still moving on without wait for them. but the company still has mindset issue. they know what they want to be for the franchise but it just they has uncontrollable ambition at same time. over ambitious despite lack of capabilities to make a proper output. they want crazy visual, open world but failed to balance between gameplay and visual aspect. failed to prioritize right stuff. simply to say, all this time they been searching for right middle ground and right formula to drive future installment. they never has identity crisis. they know the way but still searching, despite answer sometimes already infront of their eye and yet they refuse to look.


Naoki Yoshida give interesting opinion regarding this in FF14 documentary that i time stamped:



they know. but they didnt has proper mindset for it anymore. Yoshida also mention how the company become 'arrogant' that time and believe they still stand on top, creating trend despite thats not the case anymore and refuse to looks to others. during Fabula Nova Crystallis announcement, they also has habit to announce game too early despite still not in development. it is not the Final Fantasy identity crisis but the company's mindset crisis. thankfully they learn alot as we can see how they do today.

228.png

(we can see lot of stuff mention here, is applicable toward for example FF15)


we can see how differences CBU3 approach for FF14 and 16 as they willing to do opposite of what others division did and didnt shy to look and take example from others. the company being trying, experimenting with various model. based on how FF16 would be, success wise and development progress wise, it might laid up new blueprint for future generation of the franchise. i say currently they on verge of important breakthrough for the franchise as whole.

in the end whats important is make a great game. by great game also mean it has complete package of content, no less. to make a great game they need to has clear vision of what they want to be which is they either fail or only succeed half way in these past decade.

based on tons of interview, the devs understood very well of what make a game is a 'Final Fantasy' but some fans refuse to hear or give chance to them since they know 'better'. they even dare to questioned the father of Final Fantasy Hironobu Sakaguchi itself. at this point this is not about identity crisis anymore but toxic behaviour of fandoms.

HONESTLY and most importantly, Final Fantasy fans is the one going through identity crisis due to lot of them misunderstood about what make the franchise, is a 'Final Fantasy' at first place.
 
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Absolute cringe. I love how I keep seeing “This will probably be a great game, just not my FF” as the new hate meta on this.

Bro you’re just bad at action games we get it, just put it on story mode and have fun.
 

Kumomeme

Member
IIRC, Hironobu Sakaguchi, the creator of the series, considers FF9 to be the definitive game of what Final Fantasy should be about. Sakaguchi latest game, Fantasian, has strong FF vibes and was well-received (i haven't played it yet, only available on Apple devices).

gameplay:

while before he also created The Last Story, with realtime action combat element . the game also end up has strong similliar vibe as Final Fantasy despite having action system and they also take similliar approach while developing that game which is, give them all like it their last game.


"The biggest difference is the battle system. I was aiming to create something that would make people say, “This is the new RPG battle style,” "- Hironobu Sakaguchi
in other interview(which is i cant find anymore), he once hoped that this would replace and become new standard of combat system for JRPG.
 
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Looks absolutely epic to me



Sorry to hear your can't move on from old fashioned turn based combat OP. That's what your entire argument centres around. FF is a high production narrative driven adventure game and experience. Emphasising the journey of a certain set of characters, focusing on themes of heroism/friendship in a changing world.

If the new series visionaries/developers and new hardware tech available means they can produce new gameplay ideas within that framework, then let them instead of holding them back to these archaic whims of what FF is.

New gameplay ideas: transform a JRPG in a third person action game with light rp elements
 
If I get my CG cutscenes, I’m happy.

This is a shot from the opening of FFXIII, which released 13 years ago.

2GAThaY.jpg




This shot is, as far as we know, the highest quality version of Jill, a character from FFXVI, releasing in 2 months, that we’ll see.

Ej23VbX.jpg



“The visuals are good enough” my rear hind. I want my eye candy and SE has their own internal CG studio and I will continue to whine until CG cutscenes are confirmed.
 

Synless

Member
I think FFXVI's current state is less about Final Fantasy as series and more about S-E constantly chasing western trends trying to find that big "hit" worldwide.

I wish they'd just stick with being a Japanese company that makes games with Japanese sensibilities. That's how all of their best games were made.
How are they chasing western games again?

They chose combat and gameplay from a Japanese game, that has only ever been done well by Japanese developers. The euro design is not uncommon from their past games that were fantasy.

I am missing where they are chasing western trends.
 

Danjin44

The nicest person on this forum
How are they chasing western games again?

They chose combat and gameplay from a Japanese game, that has only ever been done well by Japanese developers. The euro design is not uncommon from their past games that were fantasy.

I am missing where they are chasing western trends.
Game like Drakengard also has dark medieval fantasy I guess that game is trying to be western game?
 

Fredrik

Member
IIRC, Hironobu Sakaguchi, the creator of the series, considers FF9 to be the definitive game of what Final Fantasy should be about. Sakaguchi latest game, Fantasian, has strong FF vibes and was well-received (i haven't played it yet, only available on Apple devices).

gameplay:

Yeah Fantasian is great, very unique visuals, a big appeal is the dioramas, can look absolutely amazing at times, has some balancing issues imo but it very much feels like an old school Final Fantasy. They did an interesting thing in an attempt to make random battles less annoying where you kinda collect the fights in a box of sorts to then trigger a huge fight at a later time. Can make some infested areas play more smoothly. I read that Sakaguchi wants to make a PC version so hopefully more can play it eventually.
 
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Dr. Claus

Vincit qui se vincit
If I get my CG cutscenes, I’m happy.

This is a shot from the opening of FFXIII, which released 13 years ago.

2GAThaY.jpg




This shot is, as far as we know, the highest quality version of Jill, a character from FFXVI, releasing in 2 months, that we’ll see.

Ej23VbX.jpg



“The visuals are good enough” my rear hind. I want my eye candy and SE has their own internal CG studio and I will continue to whine until CG cutscenes are confirmed.

Yea, Jill looks objectively better. The fibers from her shirt, the strands of hair. The lighting, the gloss on her skin from sweat. All running in real time, unlike FFXIII which was a precanned cinematic.

You are literally mental if you think FFXIII looks better than XVI.
 
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A full CGI movie at 4K can be easily stored in 20-30GB given modern compression methods.

Now multiply that full movie by 3 then add all the 100G of game content. It’s massive and huge waste of space, not to mention visually inconsistent and a bigger time sink of dev resources
 
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Klosshufvud

Member
Now multiply that full movie by3 then add all the 100G of game content. It’s massive and huge waste of space
Why would I multiply by 3? It's exceedingly rare of any FF game to have a full feature film worth of cutscenes. With modern compression and encoding, you don't need much space to store 4K videos. This isn't like the PS3 days when the files were stored in completely uncompressed format.
 
Why would I multiply by 3? It's exceedingly rare of any FF game to have a full feature film worth of cutscenes. With modern compression and encoding, you don't need much space to store 4K videos. This isn't like the PS3 days when the files were stored in completely uncompressed format.

It would still need twice the space as the normal game for no benefit at all

CG is not needed anymore
 

Fredrik

Member
Now multiply that full movie by 3 then add all the 100G of game content. It’s massive and huge waste of space, not to mention visually inconsistent and a bigger time sink of dev resources
Plus, having in-engine cut scenes is objectively better since they can show your current gear, like in Elden Ring, makes a big difference imo. And if they want they can run them at 60fps which is usually rare for prerendered clips.
 

Klosshufvud

Member
It would still need twice the space as the normal game for no benefit at all

CG is not needed anymore
False on both accounts. FF7 Remake has CG scenes and the PS5 version isn't particularly heavy despite high resolution CG. And FF7R also proved that CG scenes are still beyond what we can achieve in real time. That cutscene where The Ancients are revealed was impossible to render in-game. The scope and transitions are in stark contrast to the in-game cutscenes.

Plus, having in-engine cut scenes is objectively better since they can show your current gear, like in Elden Ring, makes a big difference imo. And if they want they can run them at 60fps which is usually rare for prerendered clips.
Although what we've seen of FF16 is that his armor and weapons are static. So not really valid here.
 
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False on both accounts. FF7 Remake has CG scenes and the PS5 version isn't particularly heavy despite high resolution CG. And FF7R also proved that CG scenes are still beyond what we can achieve in real time. That cutscene where The Ancients are revealed was impossible to render in-game. The scope and transitions are in stark contrast to the in-game cutscenes.

FF7R uses them sparingly

My example is more extensive for every cutscene

Either way it’s a waste
 
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Ozzie666

Member
Was not a fan of anything they tried with FF15. The FF7 remake was good, and the combat was enjoyable. But that FF7 nostalgia was real.
I have faith in FF16 simply because it looks to be based on the soul of FF14, you can see and feel it. Yoshi P won't let us down, he saved the impossible.
It's been downhill since FF10 really though and it's lost its way a bit.

FF8 remake next please.
 
With FF16 they scoop up a bunch of new fans that like action oriented games and with FF17 they say “we listen to our fans, so now you can have both realtime or choose turn based combat! Amazing, right?”
 
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