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[Dreamwriter]

What intrigues me most about games like these isn't the game itself, its the dev process. I'm so curious as to the development culture that led a multibillion dollar juggernaut company like SE to spend many millions and 5 years pushing out something like this in 2010.

Did they ever even play their own game for extended periods of time? Some of the design decisions are so WTF pants-on-head that I can't believe any higher ups put some quality time into the game.

Not really anything to wonder about - the game launched early, it's not a bad game. All of the reviews agree that the game has lots of potential, it just has some bugs and flaws. SE spent a lot of money and time making a great game, they just released it like 3 monhts early to try and get a good membership before Cataclysm's release. All games are like this before they are released.

 

[Gravijah]

lol

Don't forget to direct that to 90% of the posters in this thread as well.

that's not very nice

 

[Lebron]

Of all the games to try and get sensitive over


Think I'm going to try the trial again with a friend, it should be fun. She wants to give it a shot, and I'm like, haha ok.

 

[notworksafe]

Not really anything to wonder about - the game launched early, it's not a bad game. All of the reviews agree that the game has lots of potential, it just has some bugs and flaws. SE spent a lot of money and time making a great game, they just released it like 3 monhts early to try and get a good membership before Cataclysm's release. All games are like this before they are released.

The difference is that S-E charged $50 (or more with CE) and minimum $12/month for a pre-release game without putting that info on the box or letting people know.

 

[Dreamwriter]

It's Final Fantasy. Chocobos should be in day fucking one. Day one.

I want to ride a chocobo, fight cactuars, fight tonberries, etc. DAY ONE.

FFXI didn't let you ride Chocobo's or fight cactuars/tonberries day one, you had to be level 20 to unlock the Chocobo quest, far higher to fight cactuars and tonberries. Heck, most Final Fantasies don't give you access to things like that until you're pretty far into the game, FFXIII even made chocobo's an optional quest you had to discover and unlock very late in the game.

 

[LowParry]

lol

Don't forget to direct that to 90% of the posters in this thread as well.

Hey, fuck you pal. Why don't you take yourself and your pet Londa out of here and let us Haters hate the game. Cause the game is a piece of shit and I'm all for relishing the moment.

 

[Gravijah]

FFXI didn't let you ride Chocobo's or fight cactuars/tonberries day one, you had to be level 20 to unlock the Chocobo quest, far higher to fight cactuars and tonberries. Heck, most Final Fantasies don't give you access to things like that until you're pretty far into the game, FFXIII even made chocobo's an optional quest you had to discover and unlock very late in the game.

I think you took Day One the wrong way. ;p

 

[Clear]

Seriously guys, I think its fair to say that SE have got the message.

They are clearly aware that things need improving, and are being open about what they are aiming to change and are even offering a rough time-table for it.

At this point, raging has no purpose whatsoever. Give them time to sort stuff out, or just walk away.

The point I'm getting at is that things are clearly where they are, so regardless of how good or how many people are assigned at this point to fix things as best they can - its still going to take some time.

So why not chill out, and judge them on their ability to improve, and not keep flogging the dead horse of FFXIV's launch state.

Full disclosure: My copy of FFXIV is still wrapped in plastic. I'm going to install it in a month or so when more stuff gets added, FFXI and Castlevania are keeping me amused for now.

But I do know RL people who are enjoying the game as is, so to say that nobody likes it in its current state I know to be factually wrong, and who am I to say who's "taste" lies closest to my own?

 

[Xilium]

asian mmo's are shit
news at 11

But they make money unlike a lot of western MMOs.

Of the subscription based ones, 3 out of 5 of them have over a million subscribers (Aion, Lineage I/II, FFXI, and FFXIV, the latter two having less than a million).

And they all but own the F2P space. Nexon, Galalabs, Perfect World Co., Softnyx, and NDOORS (All Korean except PWC which is Chinese) make the bulk majority of big named F2P MMOs out there and are apparently making a lot of money off of them since they keep pumping new games out every few years.

So unless you're WoW, maybe it would be in developer's best interest to appeal to the East instead of the West.

 

[Kintaro]

Seriously guys, I think its fair to say that SE have got the message.

Is it? Is it clear that they got the message when this is the exact same time table they had 8 years ago?

What message were they working with when they have removed some of the fundamentals of MMOs such as a Auction House and a Player Mailing System or a Sort Inventory button? How did they possibility believe that a player run economy would work without the ability to...mail items to each other? What outline said that one needs at least 5 click through menus just to craft one item (which each menu fights through lag)? What outline said that they should take the good Weapon Skill system that worked in their previous game, throw it out, then add in a stupid convoluted version of it for this game? What design doc were they using for their two level system (Class and Physical) when they implement hard caps for each class rank that renders what you decide to do with your Physical points moot?

In what world is it okay for the message to be "No, it's okay Square Enix, you can take two-three months to fix issues in your game that should have been fixed by its launch?" Tell me this.

Sadly, the only ones who truly haven't got the message are the ones who continue to fall into the trap SE is setting once again. =(

 

[TheExodu5]

Where did Londa go? I wanted to laugh this morning.

 

[notworksafe]

Western MMOs must make some money, how else could they continue to operate?

Also I could easily see a future with more Western F2P MMOs. Turbine is supposedly making a fair bit of profit off of DDO and LotRO since they went F2P. Heck they are even getting full fledged subscribers (who may also be buying things from the F2P item stores as well).

 

[Xilium]

Western MMOs must make some money, how else could they continue to operate?

Also I could easily see a future with more Western F2P MMOs. Turbine is supposedly making a fair bit of profit off of DDO and LotRO since they went F2P. Heck they are even getting full fledged subscribers (who may also be buying things from the F2P item stores as well).

There are hardly any western developers with more than 1 running MMO and most of them are coasting along with 100,000 or less subscribers. Since they are mostly P2P, they can adjust resources to allow for some profits to be made but this typically just means less support for the game via updates, moderators, ect.

As for Turbine, they specifically said they doubled their revenue, not profits, and each time they brought that up was right after making their games F2P. Naturally, when a P2P game goes F2P, you're going to get a large influx of subscribers. You only need a handful of them to go on a buying spree to see the money start rolling in, but how long is that going to last? I'd give it another year before we call whether or not they are successful with their F2P model.

 

[notworksafe]

There are hardly any western developers with more than 1 running MMO and most of them are coasting along with 100,000 or less subscribers. Since they are mostly P2P, they can adjust resources to allow for some profits to be made but this typically just means less support for the game via updates, moderators, ect.

As for Turbine, they specifically said they doubled their revenue, not profits, and each time they brought that up was right after making their games F2P. Naturally, when a P2P game goes F2P, you're going to get a large influx of subscribers. You only need a handful of them to go on a buying spree to see the money start rolling in, but how long is that going to last? I'd give it another year before we call whether or not they are successful with their F2P model.

DDO went F2P over a year ago and it is going strong. There are many crossover players now in LotRO that are now also playing DDO, judging from the players I talk to in-game. Many of them were waiting for LotRO to go F2P before diving in.

I think that having an influx of players willing to spend money in an F2P game (either on items or subscriptions) is a good sign for the future of LotRO, but it may be to early to judge at this point.

As far as Western devs with multiple MMOs, there are more than you think. Turbine, Mythic, Cryptic, and soon ArenaNet are the ones I think of off the top of my head. Plus CCP and Blizzard will have second MMOs eventually as well. SOE also handles about a zillion MMOs, though they didn't develop all of them.

 

[Fisticuffs]

But they make money unlike a lot of western MMOs.

Of the subscription based ones, 3 out of 5 of them have over a million subscribers (Aion, Lineage I/II, FFXI, and FFXIV, the latter two having less than a million).

And they all but own the F2P space. Nexon, Galalabs, Perfect World Co., Softnyx, and NDOORS (All Korean except PWC which is Chinese) make the bulk majority of big named F2P MMOs out there and are apparently making a lot of money off of them since they keep pumping new games out every few years.

So unless you're WoW, maybe it would be in developer's best interest to appeal to the East instead of the West.

He said they were shit. He didn't say they were unprofitable

 

[Xilium]

DDO went F2P over a year ago and it is going strong. There are many crossover players now in LotRO that are now also playing DDO, judging from the players I talk to in-game. Many of them were waiting for LotRO to go F2P before diving in.

But how are you measuring that? Ealier this year, Turbine claimed DDO broke 1 million subscribers which is a huge play on numbers at best. By most accounts, the game hadn't even broken 150k (that number is the lenient one) before the switch and then they are suddenly claiming 1 million. I'm assuming they're just counting anyone whose ever logged into the game and not actively playing people.

Age of Conan and Vanguard are still around with a couple thousand subscribers too, but nobody would call those games successful.

I think that having an influx of players willing to spend money in an F2P game (either on items or subscriptions) is a good sign for the future of LotRO, but it may be to early to judge at this point.

Well the whole point of the F2P model is to have a small minority of big spenders (~10% preferably) pay for the bulk majority of people who buy nothing or very little. You typically need a fairly large subscriber base for this to net you a profit but the games actual development cost also come into play. DDO and LOTRO are using big name licenses so I'm just not sure they have a big enough player base to cover their cost for the long term.

As far as Western devs with multiple MMOs, there are more than you think. Turbine, Mythic, Cryptic, and soon ArenaNet are the ones I think of off the top of my head. Plus CCP and Blizzard will have second MMOs eventually as well. SOE also handles about a zillion MMOs, though they didn't develop all of them.

Both of Mythics previous MMOs are just about dead and Champions and Star Trek didn't go over too well for Cryptic either. These guys aren't exactly shinning examples of success. Their first forays were good but their sequential releases, not so much (SE take note).

He said they were shit. He didn't say they were unprofitable

They can't be that bad if people are willing to spend money on them (again, considering that most of them are F2P and cash shop items are primarily cosmetic or convince based).

 

[Teknopathetic]

"They can't be that bad if people are willing to spend money on them"


Logical fallacy.

 

[McLovin]

notworksafe should be renamed Walker Texas Ranger, props to him and the rest who have been calling out the bullshit.

McLovin how old is your brother? Just out of curiosity

27 his main computer is an older iMac. He finally looked at the scores but he found a few positive ones to prove me wrong. Completely ignored the bad ones :lol

 

[HK-47]

Asians like horrendous grindfests that take forever to get to the real content and have huge exp spikes. And their F2Ps outside of Vindictus are shitty too.

 

[Spire]

But how are you measuring that? Ealier this year, Turbine claimed DDO broke 1 million subscribers which is a huge play on numbers at best. By most accounts, the game hadn't even broken 150k (that number is the lenient one) before the switch and then they are suddenly claiming 1 million. I'm assuming they're just counting anyone whose ever logged into the game and not actively playing people.

http://www.massively.com/2010/05/13/ddo-jumps-to-third-most-popular-spot-in-mmo-survey/

Not numbers but third most popular in the US six months after launch? That has to be doing pretty well.

As for Turbine, they specifically said they doubled their revenue, not profits, and each time they brought that up was right after making their games F2P. Naturally, when a P2P game goes F2P, you're going to get a large influx of subscribers. You only need a handful of them to go on a buying spree to see the money start rolling in, but how long is that going to last? I'd give it another year before we call whether or not they are successful with their F2P model.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB100...352625100756.html?mod=WSJ_hps_MIDDLEFifthNews

This interview with the "doubled revenue" quote is 8 months after DDO's switch to F2P. And if the F2P has such a large drop off and isn't sustainable over the long term like you suggest, why would Turbine switch LotRO to it? LotRO was stable and doing well, it wasn't in danger of dying like DDO was.

 

[L00P]

Wow, this game's already out? Didn't they just announced it at this year's E3?

 

[IonicSnake]

Wow, this game's already out? Didn't they just announced it at this year's E3?

E3 2009.

 

[Khrno]

Hey, fuck you pal. Why don't you take yourself and your pet Londa out of here and let us Haters hate the game. Cause the game is a piece of shit and I'm all for relishing the moment.

Funny.

 

[Xilium]

http://www.massively.com/2010/05/13/ddo-jumps-to-third-most-popular-spot-in-mmo-survey/

Not numbers but third most popular in the US six months after launch? That has to be doing pretty well.

I would be interested in knowing where they are going to ask those questions but it's not surprising that people are playing free MMOs. The only commitment is time. I still don't think they are anywhere near 1 million active subscribers/players (which is about where Runescape is at).

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB100...352625100756.html?mod=WSJ_hps_MIDDLEFifthNews

This interview with the "doubled revenue" quote is 8 months after DDO's switch to F2P. And if the F2P has such a large drop off and isn't sustainable over the long term like you suggest, why would Turbine switch LotRO to it? LotRO was stable and doing well, it wasn't in danger of dying like DDO was.

Yeah, the double revenue quote is actually from the LOTRO announcement, that was my bad. To the second question, it's not so much that the audience will drop off but the people paying for content will (Asians MMOs get around this by having high level caps and experience grinds. People will continue to pay money to get items that increase experience and/or combat strength, typically for around $15/mo.). As for why they switched LOTRO over, because they were losing subscribers (far from dead but on the decline) and going F2P would bring some of those people back as well as bring in new players.

Honestly though, the fact that Turbine won't release any official numbers and only speaks in very vague terms is what worries me the most. MMO developers that are happy with their numbers are typically more than willing to brag about them. I'll totally eat my words if they release official numbers and it shows they are kicking ass but they seem pretty desperate to tread around specific details of their supposed success.

Logical fallacy.

I would agree if we were talking about a one-time purchase but we're not. At the end of the day, how good a game is, is measured by how fun it is as they are a means of entertainment first and foremost. If people are not having fun in an MMO, they aren't going to continue playing it, let alone continue to spend any money on it.

 

[KaYotiX]

did they patch in the fun yet??:lol

 

[demigod]

Seriously guys, I think its fair to say that SE have got the message.

At this point, raging has no purpose whatsoever. Give them time to sort stuff out, or just walk away.

The point I'm getting at is that things are clearly where they are, so regardless of how good or how many people are assigned at this point to fix things as best they can - its still going to take some time.

So why not chill out, and judge them on their ability to improve, and not keep flogging the dead horse of FFXIV's launch state.

Full disclosure: My copy of FFXIV is still wrapped in plastic. I'm going to install it in a month or so when more stuff gets added, FFXI and Castlevania are keeping me amused for now.

You've been defending this game the whole time yet...you haven't even opened your copy yet? LMFAO

Hey, fuck you pal. Why don't you take yourself and your Master Londa out of here and let us Haters hate the game. Cause the game is a piece of shit and I'm all for relishing the moment.

Fixed

 

[Khrno]

did they patch in the fun yet??:lol

Being on the disc since launch.

 

[Gravijah]

Being on the disc since launch.

oh crap sucks for the DD people :/

 

[JWong]

I don't know why Jwong is so surprised that it's possible other devs had similar ideas of making a game that was neither a chore nor overly punishing towards the player. WoW is far from the first game to have that design philosphy anyway. Making an MMO that is accessible for the players isn't "cloning WoW." I mean, seriously?

If you can tell me an MMO I can play that effectively uses quest leading, I'll definitely try it out. It's just a fact that WoW brought a world that is filled to the brim with content that every other MMO had to be just as packed, and then effectively leading the player through all of the content.

It's just the PVE aspect of the game. Even Guild Wars lacked interesting PVE content for a lot of it.

 

[Zeal]

The few people trying to defend this pile of dog shit disguised as an MMO amaze me. I mean, when the resident GameFaqs SE crew has already given up, it's time to move on.

Then again, I can point out two right now that are obvious damage control plants.

 

[Cmagus]

Seriously guys, I think its fair to say that SE have got the message.

They are clearly aware that things need improving, and are being open about what they are aiming to change and are even offering a rough time-table for it.

At this point, raging has no purpose whatsoever. Give them time to sort stuff out, or just walk away.

The point I'm getting at is that things are clearly where they are, so regardless of how good or how many people are assigned at this point to fix things as best they can - its still going to take some time.

So why not chill out, and judge them on their ability to improve, and not keep flogging the dead horse of FFXIV's launch state.

Full disclosure: My copy of FFXIV is still wrapped in plastic. I'm going to install it in a month or so when more stuff gets added, FFXI and Castlevania are keeping me amused for now.

But I do know RL people who are enjoying the game as is, so to say that nobody likes it in its current state I know to be factually wrong, and who am I to say who's "taste" lies closest to my own?

My $80.00 collectors edition says otherwise.I am more than sure they get the point by now but to to try and side with Square on this one is impossible.They knew what they were releasing and they had no problem releasing what they did.It's typical square they seem to think they can get away with stuff like because it's the Final Fantasy brand and you know what this time it's bit them in the ass.

Luckily they extended the free month because if they hadn't this game would lose a ton of people if they haven't already.They deserve to take the crap on this game maybe it will put them in their place because now they are on thin ice and they no doubt have a fire under their asses.Here is hoping they fix alot in the next month I really still want to enjoy this game and I will continue playing while it's free but it's getting incredibly boring now I went on today to start crafting and just said screw it couldn't be bothered.

 

[HappyBivouac]

I like how people who don't like the game act like anyone who does like it must be a mindless idiot square-enix drone. It's pretty funny.

You've been defending this game the whole time yet...you haven't even opened your copy yet? LMFAO

People defend games before they're launched all the time. Care to tell me the difference?

This thread is a conflict between people who are interested in the long-term (go ahead and call them SE fanboys. whatever. if that's honestly the way your mind works you're not worth talking to on the subject.) and people who think gaming needs to be instant gratification and everything otherwise is shit. Neither side is right; it's just that different people see things differently and they won't see eye to eye.

All the shit about one side putting the other down and the name calling needs to stop though. It's absurd.

 

[notworksafe]

If you can tell me an MMO I can play that effectively uses quest leading, I'll definitely try it out. It's just a fact that WoW brought a world that is filled to the brim with content that every other MMO had to be just as packed, and then effectively leading the player through all of the content.

It's just the PVE aspect of the game. Even Guild Wars lacked interesting PVE content for a lot of it.

Lord of the Rings Online! That has some of the best quests and story I've seen in an MMO for a long time.

 

[Jerk]

I like how people who don't like the game act like anyone who does like it must be a mindless idiot square-enix drone. It's pretty funny.

The alternative is that these people are coocoo for coco-puffs.