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Graphical Fidelity I Expect This Gen

SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
This gen is such a letdown. Where are the Sony first parties man
I’ve posted slides by Sony themselves showing a reduction in investments in single player games and a massive increase in gaas games.

This was the gen where they needed more devs than ever before to get games done faster and instead of increasing team sizes, they split them into two forcing them to make gaas trash then bought new studios and invested in several other third party start ups for gaas.

Its poor management. Everyone knew the costs and dev cycles were increasing but they went out if their way to ignore it and handicap their studios by forcing them to make cross Gen games, gaas trash m, dlc expansions and remakes. Anything but a real Next gen game. This is on Herman Hurst. If the man had any self respect he would resign. But he’s a shameless suit like ms execs.
 
I’ve posted slides by Sony themselves showing a reduction in investments in single player games and a massive increase in gaas games.

This was the gen where they needed more devs than ever before to get games done faster and instead of increasing team sizes, they split them into two forcing them to make gaas trash then bought new studios and invested in several other third party start ups for gaas.

Its poor management. Everyone knew the costs and dev cycles were increasing but they went out if their way to ignore it and handicap their studios by forcing them to make cross Gen games, gaas trash m, dlc expansions and remakes. Anything but a real Next gen game. This is on Herman Hurst. If the man had any self respect he would resign. But he’s a shameless suit like ms execs.

This! And people wonder why we get so annoyed when they defend Sony execs and want to pretend that Sony has been making impressive next gen games ...they have not!
 

JCreasy

Member
I’ve posted slides by Sony themselves showing a reduction in investments in single player games and a massive increase in gaas games.

This was the gen where they needed more devs than ever before to get games done faster and instead of increasing team sizes, they split them into two forcing them to make gaas trash then bought new studios and invested in several other third party start ups for gaas.

Its poor management. Everyone knew the costs and dev cycles were increasing but they went out if their way to ignore it and handicap their studios by forcing them to make cross Gen games, gaas trash m, dlc expansions and remakes. Anything but a real Next gen game. This is on Herman Hurst. If the man had any self respect he would resign. But he’s a shameless suit like ms execs.

We also need fresh IP. It forces creative demands that often require new technology. New ambitions.

It's all too tempting to rest on your laurels if you're Naughty Dog and you've made The Last of US and it's been a critical success. Your legacy characters were hand made, crafted from imagination, so there's no incentive really to explore new advancements in face scanning and performance capture. Hand animation has worked for you, so you think you're good. And when the road map involves recycling the same two games over and over again, there's very little room for innovation. Stagnation sets in.

Same with Santa Monica. They got away with rebooting the IP, which offered the vaneer of a new IP, but that gave the cover to ship a late cross-gen game recycled the same characters. Kratos is still Kratos. He doesn't push the visual any further.

New characters are more dense with detail and geometry. They use new materials. That's what a new IP forces creatively.

Meanwhile, hungrier studies seeking success are willing to make bold choices that help them stand out. They'll go all in on Unreal Engine 5 . . . and completely bypass Sony Studios.

I hope Naughty Dog reveals a new IP this summer and makes my post look completely stupid.

I hear Santa Monica is doing another God of War game.
 
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SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
We also need fresh IP. It forces creative demands that often require new technology. New ambitions.

It's all too tempting to rest on your laurels if you're Naughty Dog and you've made The Last of US and it's been a critical success. Your legacy characters were hand made, crafted from imagination, so there's no incentive really to explore new advancements in face scanning and performance capture. Hand animation has worked for you, so you think you're good. And when the road map involves recycling the same two games over and over again, there's very little room for innovation. Stagnation sets in.

Same with Santa Monica. They got away with rebooting the IP, which offered the vaneer of a new IP, but that gave the cover to ship a late cross-gen game recycled the same characters. Kratos is still Kratos. He doesn't push the visual any further.

New characters are more dense with detail and geometry. They use new materials. That's what a new IP forces creatively.

Meanwhile, hungrier studies seeking success are willing to make bold choices that help them stand out. They'll go all in on Unreal Engine 5 . . . and completely bypass Sony Studios.

I hope Naughty Dog reveals a new IP this summer and makes my post look completely stupid.

I hear Santa Monica is doing another God of War game.
ND, SSM, Bend and Bluepoint are all doing new IPs.

The problem is that mismanagement. Cory rebooted GOW in 4 years. And by rebooted i mean, redesigned the combat system, the level design, the boss battles, the actual setting, new story, new boy. everything planned and completed in 4 years. its been 6 fucking years since he started making his new IP and its still not been revealed. even if they show it at e3, it would still point to severe mismanagement of arguably their most talented director. Instead of investing hundreds of millions if not billions in gaas studios, give this guy a full team of 200 like you did in 2014.

Neil and Bruce made TLOU in 3.5 years. Again, new ip, new combat system, new setting, new genre, new story, and got it all done and released in 3.5 years. Meanwhile, its been close to 4 years since they shipped TLOU2 and we still havent seen what this new IP is. it is likely 2-3 years away. Even though they are 2-3x bigger than they were back in 2013. And why? Because Sony had them maknig factions, making remakes, and sent their studio head, and creative director to canada to make a tv show for HBO for two years. Im sorry but thats poor management.


Bend was somehow even worse. Instead of making Days Gone 2 immediately, they forced out the creative director 2 days after launch. Then forced the game director to pitch the sequel despite the game selling 7.5 million copies. Then rejected the pitch, forced that director out, took on an uncharted spinoff then wasted a year on it before cancelling that after ND kept interfering. And finally starting a new IP 2 years after they shipped Days Gone. Their director who now works at Crystal Dynamics said that he wouldve had the sequel out in 4 years. Yet here we are 5 years later, and all they ahve to show for is a logo.


They will also be at E3 in some form with a new IP, but it wouldnt make you wrong. Sony of the PS3 and PS4 gen is long gone, and not just because key talent left, but also because of dumb management decisions.

GG is remaking Horizon 1. If thats not poor management, i dont know what is.

Out of all these studios, only one i dont blame is Bluepoint. They ported demon souls in just 2 years and 8 months, and have gone radio silent the last 3 years and 6 months. but they are a small studio of 80 devs making a new IP for the first time. These big 400 person studios overextending themselves with remakes, multiplayer games, 50-100 hour snoozefests, and tv shows are the reason why we are seeing such a dry spell from arguably the greatest first party studios of the last 20 years.
 
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SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
There's something weird going on with the Snowdrop RTGI on the release versions of the games. The release version RTGI just looks severely downgraded compared to the reveal trailers. It doesn't even look like RTGI at all to be honest. And with the recent Outlaws trailer I'm sure it's gonna be an Avatar situation all over again. The reveal trailer had some really good looking lighting, then the second trailer showed a crazy downgrade, and the release obviously looked like the last trailer.

Compare that forest screenshot to these shots from the reveal trailer of Avatar lmao, doesn't even look like the same game.


f2.png

f3.png

Sem-T-tulo.png


And I wouldn't say it's a path traced vs ray traced situation because UE5 Lumen can already replicate these visuals. They probably crank up the RT settings for the reveal trailers and then somehow manage to downgrade literally the main aspect that makes the games look that good.
I tweeted a gif of that flying scene asking the tech director at massive what happened and he didnt reply. he's replied to me before so i thought it was hilarious how he sidestepped that one. he gets like 2 replies to his tweets so at least i can be sure he saw my post.

asked his opinion on the star wars downgrade yesterday and nothing. i dont want this thread going to twitter and harrassing him, but i think these are all good questions we should be able to at least politely ask about. in todays day and age where we all have unfiltered access to tech directors and CTOs of these AAA companies straight up making shit up for reveal trailers. The least they can do is simply clarify why one trailer looks so much better than the other. is it a downgrade in RTGI? their shaders? volumetric effects? Just what is it that gave these trailers such a cg feel only to look completely different a year later?

I love avatar but you are right, the foliage covered in shadows simply lacked those photorealistic shaders we saw here. And I would like to know what is that makes all the difference. If only to adjust my expectations going forward.

Reveal trailer:
Sem-T-tulo.png

Final game.

GzaSZp6.gif
 

ChiefDada

Gold Member
I love avatar but you are right, the foliage covered in shadows simply lacked those photorealistic shaders we saw here. And I would like to know what is that makes all the difference. If only to adjust my expectations going forward.

Reveal trailer:
Sem-T-tulo.png

Final game.

GzaSZp6.gif

I don't understand, this looks amazing and very similar to the reveal trailer. The reveal pic just looks to have more shadow coverage. But man did they do an amazing job with the lighting. This is the type of RTGI Horizon was lacking.
 

SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
I don't understand, this looks amazing and very similar to the reveal trailer. The reveal pic just looks to have more shadow coverage. But man did they do an amazing job with the lighting. This is the type of RTGI Horizon was lacking.
it looks far more cartoony and not as photorealistic. compare the green-ness of plant leaves with perfect shadows without losing definition. they also have reflections.
 


what do we think?

This is by far the best looking game I’ve seen on consoles from the footage - course it seems like it won’t be fun to play for me.

I thought we’d have a lot more games that looked like this that weren’t hampered by letterboxes and limited gameplay by this point in the gen.

I’m actually concerned GTA 6 won’t live up to the reveal trailer due to the fact that I just am not seeing a hint of how those graphics are remotely possible with all they got going on, given what these consoles struggle with already. But I know nothing about tech so..
 

H . R . 2

Member
I tweeted a gif of that flying scene asking the tech director at massive what happened and he didnt reply. he's replied to me before so i thought it was hilarious how he sidestepped that one. he gets like 2 replies to his tweets so at least i can be sure he saw my post.

asked his opinion on the star wars downgrade yesterday and nothing. i dont want this thread going to twitter and harrassing him, but i think these are all good questions we should be able to at least politely ask about. in todays day and age where we all have unfiltered access to tech directors and CTOs of these AAA companies straight up making shit up for reveal trailers. The least they can do is simply clarify why one trailer looks so much better than the other. is it a downgrade in RTGI? their shaders? volumetric effects? Just what is it that gave these trailers such a cg feel only to look completely different a year later?

I love avatar but you are right, the foliage covered in shadows simply lacked those photorealistic shaders we saw here. And I would like to know what is that makes all the difference. If only to adjust my expectations going forward.

Reveal trailer:
Sem-T-tulo.png

Final game.

GzaSZp6.gif
my theory about Ubisoft's insistence on downgrading their games' visuals mid-development, despite the usual heavy backlash is that there is usually no upgrade to begin with, just vertical slices
they need exceptional, next-gen-looking titles that can generate pre-orders and give shareholders and stock buyers a sense of security about their investment at certain times during the development
and the fact that they have got away with SO MANY downgrades shows their approach is working
 
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GymWolf

Member
As usual, i'm not super impressed with hb2, i feel like the game should loook better than it does for being such a small, restricted game with no freedom at all.

Maybe when they are gonna release non-dark footage where you can actually see shit and without yt compression, i'm gonna be more impressed, but for now, gta6 impress me way more tech wise.
It does look better than death stranding 2 tho, except for the digital acting.

The game looking like a boring walking simulator with an annoying protagonist doesn't help at all.
 
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As usual, i'm not super impressed with hb2, i feel like the game should loook better than it does for being such a small, restricted game with no freedom at all.

Maybe when they are gonna release non-dark footage where you can actually see shit and without yt compression, i'm gonna be more impressed, but for now, gta6 impress me way more tech wise.
It does look better than death stranding 2 tho, except for the digital acting.

The game looking like a boring walking simulator with an annoying protagonist doesn't help at all.
Nothing is going to compete with GTA 6 but as of now its clearly better visually than anything currently out. 2025 I'm sure will bring even more impressive titles.
 

IDWhite

Member
Check THIS post

They are scenes with different lighting conditions so of course they won't look the same.
 

H . R . 2

Member
No need to tesselate a wall that the player is just running past.
Much cheaper to use POM, and it will look almost as good.

what is interesting is that Ubi could have captured and edited the trailer differently, that is, closer to the reveal trailer , but it was shot that way to temper expectations,
as they usually do a few months after each mindblowing vertical slice they put out
 
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DanielG165

Member
The game looking like a boring walking simulator
It’s Hellblade. These games aren’t jam packed with action nor set pieces, and never will be; that simply isn’t the genre nor style of them.

As an aside, obviously GTA 6 will be the graphics king when it releases. It’d be a massive disappointment if it wasn’t with the amount of resources, manpower, time, and budget behind it. That being said, as it stands right now in 2024, Hellblade 2 is shaping up to be the best looking game on the market.
 
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DanielG165

Member
I love avatar but you are right, the foliage covered in shadows simply lacked those photorealistic shaders we saw here.
Yet in person, Avatar is still mind blowing to look at and runs like a dream even when maxed out fully. There was a downgrade, yes, but it wasn’t significant enough in my eyes to severely impact the overall look of the game. There’s a reason why it won in the graphics department last year.
 

GymWolf

Member
One of the biggest downgrades from this gen are the one made from GG on HFW, and people keep saying it's not.

uGGKX0I.png
Where is the downgrade other than facial expression, different background and even more hero light around aloy?

I'm on a tablet so maybe i'm not seeing the obvious difference in term of details, materials, skin shaders, hairs etc. That look pretty much the same.

If you wanna show some real downgrade, load that gif when she enter the water with that fabolous bubble effect.
 
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Rheon

Member
One of the biggest downgrades from this gen are the one made from GG on HFW, and people keep saying it's not.

uGGKX0I.png

The only downgrade I'm seeing here is lighting and HFW's awful tonemapping that makes the image look super contrasty.

Other than that, I'm not seeing anything else.
 

IDWhite

Member
Where is the downgrade other than facial expression, different background and even more hero light around aloy?

I'm on a tablet so maybe i'm not seeing the obvious difference in term of details, materials, skin shaders, hairs etc. That look pretty much the same.

If you wanna show some real downgrade, load that gif when she enter the water with that fabolous bubble effect.

You don't need a TV to see that they made a huge downgrade to lighting, subsurface scattering and self-Shadowing.

And if you zoom in you can see how the suit has less detail.
 

JCreasy

Member
Let me say this . . .

When I got to this part in Rebirth last night, I said “Oh My GOD” out loud. I was not prepared for the level of density they were rendering for this scene. I think it looks spectacular!

ushzmTm.jpg


It reaffirms my argument that Square needs to go all in on Unreal Engine 5. Think of the wider variety of texture materials they could render with Nanite. How Lumen could add further depth to the art direction.

It goes without saying that Japanese artists have incredible attention to detail (watch any sci-fi/fantasy themed anime from the 80s’/90s’ to see what I’m really talking about). Handing powerful tools like UE 5 to creatives that do things like this is the watershed moment I’ve been waiting for my entire gaming life.

Give Square the ability to make a game with Hellblade 2 or 1946s’ fidelity, but with the detailed, artistic precision of a Studio Ghibli film.

JFC that could be awesome.
 

Flabagast

Member
Let me say this . . .

When I got to this part in Rebirth last night, I said “Oh My GOD” out loud. I was not prepared for the level of density they were rendering for this scene. I think it looks spectacular!

ushzmTm.jpg


It reaffirms my argument that Square needs to go all in on Unreal Engine 5. Think of the wider variety of texture materials they could render with Nanite. How Lumen could add further depth to the art direction.

It goes without saying that Japanese artists have incredible attention to detail (watch any sci-fi/fantasy themed anime from the 80s’/90s’ to see what I’m really talking about). Handing powerful tools like UE 5 to creatives that do things like this is the watershed moment I’ve been waiting for my entire gaming life.

Give Square the ability to make a game with Hellblade 2 or 1946s’ fidelity, but with the detailed, artistic precision of a Studio Ghibli film.

JFC that could be awesome.
Square has been ultra productive with Rebirth, creating a huge amount of content that barely no other game can compare with (including cinematics. For real, I don't think there exists any other game with this high production value of cinematics over such a long run time, not even RDR2), and this only in 3.5 year times.

They should stick with UE4 imho.
 

SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
As usual, i'm not super impressed with hb2, i feel like the game should loook better than it does for being such a small, restricted game with no freedom at all.

Maybe when they are gonna release non-dark footage where you can actually see shit and without yt compression, i'm gonna be more impressed, but for now, gta6 impress me way more tech wise.
It does look better than death stranding 2 tho, except for the digital acting.

The game looking like a boring walking simulator with an annoying protagonist doesn't help at all.
What did you think of callisto?

i kinda miss these linear corridor games. playing FF7 and Dragons Dogma 2 back to back broke me. so much fluff. Now i just want an 8 hour palate cleanser.

The only problem is that it might be an order 1886 like game with 5-6 hours of walking and cutscenes and only 2 hours of mediocre combat. I liked callisto because it was mostly all combat despite being an 8-10 hour game. Lets hope there are a bunch of setpieces like that big giant dude in the VGA 2021 gameplay reveal.
 
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SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
Went back to Tlou1 to get some gifs of cutscenes where the game looks best, and compare the character models to Hellblade 2 since thats going to be the new benchmark for character rendering in cutscenes.

Ellie looks the best, amazing in almost every scene. Joel and other characters not so much, but i did manage to find a couple of scenes where he looks great.

KkPy02T.gif
uYKfpNr.gif


2GHWI2W.gif
USwrX6I.gif
 

ChiefDada

Gold Member
Went back to Tlou1 to get some gifs of cutscenes where the game looks best, and compare the character models to Hellblade 2 since thats going to be the new benchmark for character rendering in cutscenes.

Ellie looks the best, amazing in almost every scene. Joel and other characters not so much, but i did manage to find a couple of scenes where he looks great.

KkPy02T.gif
uYKfpNr.gif


2GHWI2W.gif
USwrX6I.gif

It's definitely not up to Hellblade 2 character rendering but it's still a great achievement considering the much larger scope of gameplay and of course it's a remake. Joel often looks better than Eli imo but Robert, Tess, and Henry look better than both of them.
 

ChiefDada

Gold Member
Correct, more than a criticism of the graphics it was the bad animations.

Hy6rnbp.gif

Man I really have a love/hate relationship with the visuals in this game. Graphics are often very good but so much is sacrificed because of refusal to incorporate new rendering tech, specifically RT and current gen asset streaming.

I have no qualms whatsoever with animations though. They're excellent!
 
Man I really have a love/hate relationship with the visuals in this game. Graphics are often very good but so much is sacrificed because of refusal to incorporate new rendering tech, specifically RT and current gen asset streaming.

I have no qualms whatsoever with animations though. They're excellent!
I’m right there with you, in a lot of ways it looks astoundingly good but the lighting and other shit severely hamper it. I would love to see what it would look like with RTGI on PC, but I guess they didn’t add that in?
 

GooseMan69

Member
Now that I am here I can chime in.
Star Wars Outlaws looks terrible... like even I can't defend it.

I agree. The reveal trailer looked awesome. It looks fucking terrible now. I’m sure the environments will look nice, but Ubisoft just cannot make good looking character models that animate well. It’s astounding.
 
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