Fabieter
Member
Loved and played thar one too but what makes that a masterpiece? Don't say it isnt tho. Just trying to say that it's totally subjective.
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Has the word "masterpiece" lost it's meaning in the modern gaming landscape?
Loved and played thar one too but what makes that a masterpiece? Don't say it isnt tho. Just trying to say that it's totally subjective.
Bragr
Banned
But it's not personal when we are talking about thousands of sample sizes. Tomb Raider has thousands of games to compare against, we can see what works based on player feedback.
I can sit down one thousand people, run them through different games with different camera systems, prove which ones work best for most people and why, and differentiate what is quality and what is not. Just as you can with anything else.
Topher
Gold Member
Which means you have information to back up your opinion.
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Bragr
Banned
From Software's design around making each fight dangerous is expanded through the entire world, it creates interesting areas everywhere on the map, making exploration more interesting and meaningful than it usually is in open-world games. And the entire game is an art piece.
Bragr
Banned
Which turns into objectivism. Hence, you can argue why Spider-Man has objectively better movement than Tomb Raider.
ProtoByte
Member
mas·ter·piece
/ˈmastərˌpēs/
noun
1. a work of outstanding artistry, skill, or workmanship.
The problem with the modern game industry isn't that people use the term "masterpiece" for many games. The just spend stupid amounts of time and money on mediocre shite, often admitting that it is mediocre shite and indulging nonetheless. No one calls any CoD game a masterpiece. And yet genuine masterpieces can't hope to beat it on the sales charts, because they're not dopamine trigger Twitch-filler grindfests and "I play games with my friends".
These 2 statements are pretty ironic, even more when put together. Way to add revisionism to nostalgia.
If you're telling me that Final Fantasy VII, Metal Gear Solid, Half Life 2 and Shadow of The Colussus didn't sell themselves on graphics, you're nuts. If you think they stand up to what counts as polished, well-designed and dynamic gameplay experiences today, you're even crazier. It's especially funny mentioning JRPGs of old, where you would literally take turns, or wait until your character could do something other than an idle animation to select a totally canned action from a menu. Most games that didn't do that are and recognized as jank gameplay experiences, and were recognized as such even when they originally came out. It was to the point where many couldn't actually finish games because levels were too poorly designed, puzzles were too obtuse or the gameplay wasn't intuitive enough to accommodate success against bosses or hard encounters. Let's not get started about how low technical standards could get to where your console could get bricked at a moments notice.
This is what gets me about discussions like this. People will genuinely whine about a certain kind of AAA products - and we all know they're mostly talking about the "PlayStation template", let's not beat around the fucking bush here - while propping up all the old smash hits and cult classics. Pretending as though practically all of them weren't AAA productions at the highest standard the industry could produce at the time, that often gave the wow factor with graphical, and are remembered for their narrative elements. You gonna try convincing me people still care about Silent Hill 2 or Legacy of goddamn Kain for the gameplay? Lol, give me a break.
Fuck, Metal Gear Solid is the OG "Hollywood wannabe" game with more and longer cutscenes than you could shake a stick at.
/ˈmastərˌpēs/
noun
1. a work of outstanding artistry, skill, or workmanship.
The problem with the modern game industry isn't that people use the term "masterpiece" for many games. The just spend stupid amounts of time and money on mediocre shite, often admitting that it is mediocre shite and indulging nonetheless. No one calls any CoD game a masterpiece. And yet genuine masterpieces can't hope to beat it on the sales charts, because they're not dopamine trigger Twitch-filler grindfests and "I play games with my friends".
These 2 statements are pretty ironic, even more when put together. Way to add revisionism to nostalgia.
If you're telling me that Final Fantasy VII, Metal Gear Solid, Half Life 2 and Shadow of The Colussus didn't sell themselves on graphics, you're nuts. If you think they stand up to what counts as polished, well-designed and dynamic gameplay experiences today, you're even crazier. It's especially funny mentioning JRPGs of old, where you would literally take turns, or wait until your character could do something other than an idle animation to select a totally canned action from a menu. Most games that didn't do that are and recognized as jank gameplay experiences, and were recognized as such even when they originally came out. It was to the point where many couldn't actually finish games because levels were too poorly designed, puzzles were too obtuse or the gameplay wasn't intuitive enough to accommodate success against bosses or hard encounters. Let's not get started about how low technical standards could get to where your console could get bricked at a moments notice.
This is what gets me about discussions like this. People will genuinely whine about a certain kind of AAA products - and we all know they're mostly talking about the "PlayStation template", let's not beat around the fucking bush here - while propping up all the old smash hits and cult classics. Pretending as though practically all of them weren't AAA productions at the highest standard the industry could produce at the time, that often gave the wow factor with graphical, and are remembered for their narrative elements. You gonna try convincing me people still care about Silent Hill 2 or Legacy of goddamn Kain for the gameplay? Lol, give me a break.
Fuck, Metal Gear Solid is the OG "Hollywood wannabe" game with more and longer cutscenes than you could shake a stick at.
Fabieter
Member
That's alright but I still can't see how that makes it a masterpiece. Has a masterpiece to make something completely "new"
Topher
Gold Member
Objective facts are the basis of an informed opinion, yes.
RoboFu
One of the green rats
Calm down .. I’m talking before those games. But also most the games you mentioned were already huge franchises beforehand so no graphics were not the selling points. Gameplay came first.
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CatLady
Selfishly plays on Xbox Purr-ies X
Very true. Calling a game a masterpiece has become just another way to say I really, really like this game. What some people would call a masterpiece I would call hot garbage and I have no doubt a lot people would think I'm completely out of my mind when it comes to what I might call a masterpiece.
Ghost of Caelid
Banned
People called Ghost of Tsushima and HFW a master piece. I love GOT but a master piece it is not. I think the last master piece to come out this year is ER and Vampire survivor. It needs to be quality, original and push the genre forward imo.
Topher
Gold Member
That's why it is subjective. Folks can have plenty of reasons why something is a "masterpiece" or "hot garbage". At the end of the day, if I despise a game should it matter to someone who loves it? Nope. I can plenty of real reasons why I think TLOU is better than Days Gone. But that doesn't invalidate
Generic
's opinion that Days Gone is the better game in the slightest.
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Arachnid
Member
This
Gaming has become so big and varied. People have more options than ever before. Immersive Sim lovers like you and me will consider something like Prey or Dishonored 2 a masterpiece. Weebs will find Doki Doki Kawai Blade: Automata and consider it their personal masterpiece. Horror whores like me will consider Alien Isolation the best survival horror masterpiece we've had since Silent Hill 2 (something this perfect should not be sitting at 80 metascore/open critic score).
Masterpiece is a subjective term, as is all video game rankings. It's definition is exactly the same as it always has been. People are just allowed to have more varied tastes now without venturing out or really getting into/understanding other genre strengths.
I have noticed that it gets a bit over used these days though. It feels like just about everything is either a masterpiece or garbage, with very little in-between (someone brought up this sentiment earlier in the thread, and I agree).
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Movies doesn't set the standard if you put it this way , they're both different form of entertainments , Movies ratings make more sense , it's understandable to have fun with a bad rated horror movie , usually 3 out of 10 because what most critique have in common is something they were expecting and didn't happen in the movie , I'm not like that at the same time I understand where they coming from so it doesn't bothers me cause it's not just a plain number rather than more of what bothers them.
dreamstation
Member
I don't think so. I've played a few masterpieces in the last several years. Just don't listen to mainstream gaming media.
DenchDeckard
Moderated wildly
Elden Ring is a masterpiece....
Horizon Forbidden West isn't.
Simples.
Horizon Forbidden West isn't.
Simples.
DeleteriousObnoxious
Member
I believe in pursuing of rogue lite, open world and rpg elements. that there are something called "Level Design" a integrate part of game development lost in the process. Games with random events, Games made as jokes, Games made to fill your day out with pointless random tasks. are the new "modern game evolution" I have seen people arguing, that there are no invisible walls in Tomb Raider Reboot compared to Tomb Raider Classic which is simply just not true. i call them invisible walls in the strangest sense i guess. Because i also see a wall you can't interact with as a invisible wall as there are no outcome of the interaction in the gaming world your not blocked your not pushed back your simply not able to get forward for some strange reason. I strongly believe you should be able to interact with a wall in games.. meaning the character you control should stumble.. get hurt or simple bounce of the wall in some sort of way. not just run and nothing happens. it creates no sense of danger no sense of emotional connection to the character. this is just a simple example of how modern gaming is getting degraded. where the increased graphics and detail doesn't make sense or is communicated in a way where you can interact. the best is really Zelda Breath of the Wild but i think Nintendo has always known that interactions in a interactive medium should be center piece for creating a digital universe.
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Wildebeest
Member
Masterpiece is a word related to the old guild system in Europe. A Masterpiece for an artisan was a piece of work which was judged good enough to qualify a person for the rank of master without them going through a long period of working for other masters.
dreamstation
Member
Did you learn this from Pentiment?
Hendrick's
If only my penis was as big as my GamerScore!
AAA games have become rote and mindless. Any masterpiece is coming from the independent space these days.
rodrigolfp
Haptic Gamepads 4 Life
Yes. The first time when people start calling 30fps shooters with dual analog sticks masterpieces.
Wildebeest
Member
No. It isn't some really obscure secret.Did you learn this from Pentiment?
dreamstation
Member
I know. Just found it funny that such a subject was also part of a recent release title.
SteelCurtain 59
Member
Quality is subjective, so a game could be a masterpiece to one person and not to another, so it's really only overused on a person-by-person basis if they view several dozens of games as masterpieces, thus meaning they don't understand what masterpiece means.
CamHostage
Member
It's so funny how long it took for somebody to bring the actual definition of Masterpiece, or "Magnum Opus" or "Master's Piece" to the conversation...
It's a reference to guild submission. Your "masterpiece" is like your Eagle Scout Project; it's the piece that qualifies you as a master craftsman to graduate from being an apprentice.
If we're going by the modern use of the term "Masterpiece" of just being a thing that a lot of people subjectively find exceptionally well done, then whatever, we don't need an article telling us that we're wrong to like stuff that we like or that hard-working creators operating at the best in their field don't deserve highfalutin words to describe their cool shit.
(*Also, games are made by dozens, often hundreds, sometimes even thousands of people, so if the term "masterpiece" needs to be arbitrated and regulated before it can be applied, first we need to answer the question, who is the "master"?)
(*snooty*) Technically, I'm not sure a first work would qualify by ye olde definition as a "masterpiece"? You must apprentice before you can work as a master.
By the semi-modern definition of "masterpiece" as best-in-career, it's certainly the best work of Pajitnov's career, I don't think a lot of Hatris or Hexic fans are around to challenge that. Tetrisphere is pretty cool though.
And by the current definition of "masterpiece" as just a thing that's really good, Tetris is of course really good.
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SteelCurtain 59
Member
Gotta love the arrogance and superiority to assume the only way somebody could prefer modern games over those "masterpieces" is because they're too young or dumb. Not because, you know, people have different opinions. The last 2 gens were far superior to the 90s/early 00s imo, and a lot of people's opinions are driven by nostalgia, but I'm not going to call somebody dumb for having a different opinion than me
TrebleShot
Member
God of War Ragnarok is objectively a masterpiece anyone suggesting otherwise is pretty fucking stupid.
Paltheos
Member
I may be cynical, and I may be an asshole, but I am not a porn star.
ZehDon
Gold Member
Gaming masterpieces used to be individual games that were clear landmarks, indicating that things had changed. We'd solved some new problem, developed some new way of doing things, that resulted in gaming as a medium opening up with new possibilities. Ocarina of Time is a masterpiece, because it translated the 2D adventure game framework into 3D almost flawlessly. "Ok, that's how we do that!" said the industry. Halo: Combat Evolved is a masterpiece because it simultaneously pushed the FPS genre forward while showing the world how to do it on a console. "This is how console FPSs are done!" we all said. They demonstrated a clear mastery of game design that served as markers for the rest to follow.
Today, "masterpiece" usually just means "I liked this a lot" for subjective reasons, or, "high production values". There's no clear mastery of game design, no new problem solved; it's just "third person shooter with expensive cutscenes", "FPS with solid multiplayer", or "indie game with an obsficated plot that I'm saying I liked so that people think I'm interesting". It's easier to just take "Resident Evil" and do it again, but polished and with more money, than it is to design something entirely new, to solve some new problem, so really make the next masterpiece. The last true masterpiece that I personally played - and it's a fucking cliche, but here we are - is probably Dark Souls. It's influenced the industry's approach to design at large in a lot of ways. A lot of games, even Elden Ring, stand on its shoulders.
For example, I'm really digging the Callisto Protocol a lot. Its graphics are the best I've ever seen, it's got some interest design going on, and it's operating in my stylistic wheelhouse. But it's not masterpiece a despite the insane production values on display. Over the last few years, I've seen a lot of high production games with some really expensive cut scenes, but I haven't seen too many "masterpieces".
Today, "masterpiece" usually just means "I liked this a lot" for subjective reasons, or, "high production values". There's no clear mastery of game design, no new problem solved; it's just "third person shooter with expensive cutscenes", "FPS with solid multiplayer", or "indie game with an obsficated plot that I'm saying I liked so that people think I'm interesting". It's easier to just take "Resident Evil" and do it again, but polished and with more money, than it is to design something entirely new, to solve some new problem, so really make the next masterpiece. The last true masterpiece that I personally played - and it's a fucking cliche, but here we are - is probably Dark Souls. It's influenced the industry's approach to design at large in a lot of ways. A lot of games, even Elden Ring, stand on its shoulders.
For example, I'm really digging the Callisto Protocol a lot. Its graphics are the best I've ever seen, it's got some interest design going on, and it's operating in my stylistic wheelhouse. But it's not masterpiece a despite the insane production values on display. Over the last few years, I've seen a lot of high production games with some really expensive cut scenes, but I haven't seen too many "masterpieces".
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Hobbygaming
has been asked to post in 'Grounded' mode.
bender
What time is it?
I felt the opposite. It felt like a FromSoftware following industry trends which is odd considering the Souls games were one of the biggest trend setters in recent memory. It is a great game no doubt, but I'd also put it pretty low if I had to rank the series, a few of which I'd easily consider applying the masterpiece label to.
Hobbygaming
has been asked to post in 'Grounded' mode.
Bragr
Banned
Ok, then we agree, you can judge games on more than personal subjectivity. So some games are better than others.
Topher
Gold Member
Obviously you can have that opinion. I think plenty of games are better than others. But I can't agree that such a general statement isn't subjective when it comes to video games as the basis of how good a game is will be determined generally by how much fun a person had. Fun and enjoyment are going to be completely subjective. Having said that, I do think there are ways to compare objectively looking at technical facts such as quality and performance and that kind of thing.
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Drizzlehell
Banned
I dunno about modern gaming space but the word "masterpiece" completely lost its meaning to me around the year 2004, when Snoop Dogg released an album titled "R&G (Rhythm & Gangsta): The Masterpiece"
I mean, that CD has a couple of dope tracks on it but it was hardly a masterpiece, y'know.
I mean, that CD has a couple of dope tracks on it but it was hardly a masterpiece, y'know.
manfestival
Member
Genshin Impact is a masterpiece. How many other games have flawlessly executed this many waifus? I will tell you, none.
HerpDerpstreit
Member
The scope of the game on the Playstation 2 and even though performance wasn't up to snuff for the original release, the fact that it existed at all was amazing. What all they accomplished in that game, from an art, technical, and scale perspective is why I hold it in such high regard.
anothertech
Member
People arguing what masterpiece means for other people have too much time on their hands.
If you're in this group, you're either too old to appreciate the new, too naive to realize the world doesn't revolve around you or more likely, both.
If you're in this group, you're either too old to appreciate the new, too naive to realize the world doesn't revolve around you or more likely, both.
Toons
Member
This thread only proves to me that the term has always been wholly subjective and colored by people's own garbage opinions and "experiences". Whatever game they were playing at 13 has a higher chance to be considered a "masterpiece" in their eyes.
If only people liked the games I like, and realized their opinions were wrong, we'd all agree.
in case this isnt clear, im being sarcastic. Don't report me. Or do if you fancy it.
If only people liked the games I like, and realized their opinions were wrong, we'd all agree.
in case this isnt clear, im being sarcastic. Don't report me. Or do if you fancy it.
Fabieter
Member
Where does it say that a masterpiece of a game has to push the genre forward? That's your understanding of it.
Here this is what Google says when asking
"a work of outstanding artistry, skill, or workmanship". And that's definitely the case for alot of game which don't phsh the genre forward. By your definition it's also alot harder to do something new and mastery than it was 20to40 years ago.
BTW. Demons souls started the influencing therefore dark souls isnt a masterpiece either.
SSfox
Member
Rykan
Member
There is nothing even remotely "Masterpiece" about God of War: Ragnarok. It's basically modern Video games: The video game. Every single aspect of God of War: Ragnarok is focus tested to a T and specifically designed to be as mainstream as possible. It's nothing more than a collection of over overexaggerated characters walking around in "epic" locations and set pieces while they bore you with marvel-like dialogue and exposition.
To ensure the game doesn't become an entire bore fest, the game throws meaningless collectibles and shallow RPG mechanics at the player, while occasionally letting the player take part in what can at best be described as mid combat mixed up with professor Layton puzzles.
God of War: Ragnarok isn't a masterpiece. It's a competently factory produced product.
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killatopak
Member
Art is subjective and it applies to all media.
Just because more people think it is or it is not a masterpiece doesn’t make an opinion less valid.
At the end of the day, masterpieces are just those select few that are more well known and collectively agreed upon.
Just because more people think it is or it is not a masterpiece doesn’t make an opinion less valid.
At the end of the day, masterpieces are just those select few that are more well known and collectively agreed upon.
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