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[Bartski]

One thing I really like is an idea where, in open-world games, the devs keep certain abilities locked until very late into the campaign, and at some point give you new tools that significantly change the gameplay making it feel fresh again.

A perfect example of such design can be found in Horizon Zero Dawn, and since it seems to be the hot topic recently due to incoming sequel announcement, might be a good moment to share some thoughts.
It would also be interesting to learn about other games I might have missed where one can find such a feature.

I also find it really strange that I didn't see it really noticed in a single review or youtube video on the subject, while to me personally, it might just be the coolest, most memorable thing about HZD, one that cemented my feelings for it as a truly awesome game.

Here we go:

The overall gameplay of most open-world Machine encounters in HZD in large, varied group combat scenarios can be described as made of two stages:

1. Ambush preparation - stealth, staying hidden, evaluating numbers, setting traps on machine routes, tripwiring spots to lure Machines to, taking down some fodder while hidden in the grass where possible. The goal is to figure out a way to deal maximum damage on the onset of the battle, giving you the upper hand when noticed.

2. Actual combat - Due to Machine strength, armor, and all mobility factors - you might begin with overriding the heaviest Machine you can, make bomb slinging or other heavy firepower AOE entry, followed by keeping the distance and precision sniping machine weak spots with the bow, constantly switching arrows to choose the right one for the job, kiting the chase into previously set traps and occasionally when enemies get to close - resort to the tearblaster, or the rattler etc.

That's all great fun, until everything changes when you reach the end "The Mountain That Fell" with just one mission left to go in the campaign.

Needless to say, in order to explain what I mean - SPOILERS of HZD final stretch to follow so if you haven't played the game, do yourself a favor and finish the campaign unspoiled and then come back to see if you also noticed it and appreciate it as much as I did.

At some point in the game you might discover a hidden cave with a pre-war facility and an armor on display. You can't enter - it requires a number of power cells to open its doors. Knowing it's guaranteed to find something cool inside you spend the game searching. If you did a good job there throughout the campaign - you find the final required cell at the very end of the "The Mountain That Fell". Running back to the cave you realize that it's an outfit with a forcefield that nullifies the damage of multiple enemy attacks until it needs to recharge. In practice though, especially on Normal difficulty, because it comes so late while you're good at the game and have all your muscle memory already in place - it makes you really hard to kill in regular mob fights.

But that's not all. Also at the end of "The Mountain That Fell" - you replace your Spear with one from Silens. It's got a substantial damage boost, also due to the additional electricity attack. It also happens to be the point of the game when you should have all your spear prowler skills unlocked...

What happens is - all of a sudden these two upgrades make it perfectly viable to go full-contact with most enemies, making spear combat your no.1 fastest and most effective method of dealing with 75% of Machines.
Completely changing how you go about what I described above as an actual combat loop, making most of the strategic, ranged approach largely redundant... Now you can just rush into a situation that would normally get you killed and obliterate mobs just with melee attacks head-on. You don't really need to outsmart and snipe them anymore.

And the reason why this works so well in my opinion - it all happens AFTER you have just spent 40-50 hours on fighting Machines using that "old", methodical way.

Clearing out final side missions becomes a breeze. It also makes you finally appreciate how good the melee is in the game, which up until this point was heavily underutilized due to being largely ineffective.
And even though it takes away all the challenge in regular fights - You've had plenty of that up until this point.

If such a change came earlier - that would obviously be a horrible idea as it is detrimental to a very satisfying, well crafted, deep strategic ranged combat.

However, at this point, it feels more than welcome - it makes the game so much more fun and feeling fresh again!
And you sill have the final mission ahead of you, with a huge battle where those two upgrades really make the difference.

That's about it. Tl;dr but I'm really curious how those of you that finished the game feel about it.
Looking forward to a jaw-dropping HZD2 reveal just as much as many of you.

 

[Captain Hero]

What a great thread OP ..
well I’ll tell you something I usually don’t do in any game and that would be getting the platinum , I’m not a trophy hunter but I tried to enjoy a game as much as I can so when HZD arrived I found a unique open world game with such amazing combat and stealth .

Not only that but the lore is so cool and interesting.. so I finished the game with 100% completion , I really loved every thing in HZD

Thanks OP

 

[deriks]

Refreshing twist?! It's a good story, not that great. Also, needs a lot of better direction
- it has the problem with "10 seconds of gameplay, 10 seconds of cutscene, 10 seconds of gameplay, 10 seconds of cutscene..."
- has a boring end boss
- complicated system to develop weapons and stuff
- difficulty all over the place
- so many parts with slow walking and/or saying something that is obvious
- why limiting too much the arrows bag, a basically obligatory weapon?

 

[Silvawuff]

I loved this game design, especially with the shield weaver armor and how upgrades worked. I favored using the spear and went for melee combat when it was effective enough to hop in and whack enemies, especially when you get the knockdown boosts. It made the melee/spear upgrades much sweeter when I finally got them.

Great game. I can't wait to see what they do next.

 

[protonion]

I agree.
For me Horizon is an unrepeatable masterpiece because of such design choices.

The sense of progression is insane. Those enemies that made you flee on sight become a joke. And still every encounter at any point is very fun.

The visual and audio feedback of the damage you do is too unlike any other game.

Furthermore as someone who generally despises open world games, I loved Horizon.

It is difficult to put into words why but it is like it is not an open world game. Rather it is a game that takes place in an open world. That probably didn't make sense!
It is like the world is not the main focus. It just a beautiful backdrop and nothing more.

The world building and the awesome sci-fi plot is the cherry on top.

The sequel will be legendary.

 

[Bartski]

well I’ll tell you something I usually don’t do in any game and that would be getting the platinum

that was also my first PS4 plat while previously I couldn't care less... Felt NICE

 

[Bartski]

Refreshing twist?! It's a good story, not that great. Also, needs a lot of better direction
- it has the problem with "10 seconds of gameplay, 10 seconds of cutscene, 10 seconds of gameplay, 10 seconds of cutscene..."
- has a boring end boss
- complicated system to develop weapons and stuff
- difficulty all over the place
- so many parts with slow walking and/or saying something that is obvious
- why limiting too much the arrows bag, a basically obligatory weapon?

The thread boils down to giving the player something akin to superpowers by the end of the game that allow you to go BERSERK. Which IMO was a killer design move to change things up and refresh the gameplay.

I'm not saying the game is perfect. The final boss sucked. So did some of the writing IMO.
The economy was also horrible, which the devs just happen to consider their biggest failure (GDC talk) so I'm sure this was the first thing on improvement list for the sequel.

But those are relatively minor flaws next to all the things it did so well. One of the most impressive games this generation.

 

[EverydayBeast]

I appreciate what they did with Horizon.

 

[deriks]

The thread boils down to giving the player something akin to superpowers by the end of the game that allow you to go BERSERK. Which IMO was a killer design move to change things up and refresh the gameplay.

I'm not saying the game is perfect. The final boss sucked. So did some of the writing IMO.
The economy was also horrible, which the devs just happen to consider their biggest failure (GDC talk) so I'm sure this was the first thing on improvement list for the sequel.

But those are relatively minor flaws next to all the things it did so well. One of the most impressive games this generation.

Can't see as a minor flaws. It doesn't make the game bad, but like I said, not great, and you see so much potential and asks "the developers didn't see that?"

I hope that they play Breath of the Wild and Witcher III to get inspired by that gameplay.

 

[Captain Hero]

The thread boils down to giving the player something akin to superpowers by the end of the game that allow you to go BERSERK. Which IMO was a killer design move to change things up and refresh the gameplay.

I'm not saying the game is perfect. The final boss sucked. So did some of the writing IMO.
The economy was also horrible, which the devs just happen to consider their biggest failure (GDC talk) so I'm sure this was the first thing on improvement list for the sequel.

But those are relatively minor flaws next to all the things it did so well. One of the most impressive games this generation.

Dude .. You can say it’s perfect if you want it’s your thoughts and opinion so no need to change something because another one didn’t like !

HZD is perfect imo I loved everything in it specially the DLC

 

[CrysisFreak]

My jaw was on the floor in February 2017. I couldn't believe what I was seeing.

 

[Bartski]

Dude .. You can say it’s perfect if you want it’s your thoughts and opinion so no need to change something because another one didn’t like !

HZD is perfect imo I loved everything in it specially the DLC

But I don't think it was perfect. I think it was remarkably good in all things it did really well, 9/10, including the DLC. I'm the last person on earth to be influenced by opinions on forums

This thread was inspired by just a single feature of the game I wanted to highlight, as I've never really seen anybody pay attention to while it is something I just loved about the game.

My jaw was on the floor in February 2017. I couldn't believe what I was seeing.

I was playing on my, back then, brand new 65' OLED and just couldn't believe it how good it looks, the fact that the world detail is randomly generated is just bonkers

 

[Dontero]

That is it ? Overpowered weapons an armor at the end of game and then you don't have to deal with combat as twist ? In my book that is design fail, what is the point of playing game when you remove worth from main part of game ?

Here is actual twist.

In Silent Hill Shattered Memories you play interview with psychology professor which interview you. He gives you various questions and you answer them in several different ways. For an example he asks you how was your school life ? Were you looking for sex partners ? Oh you did ! Ok it is perfectly reasonable. You say to him for an example that you were trying to score everything what was moving etc.

You play as dude who looks for his daughter.

The twist is that that intervies is not with you but with your daughter, and those stupid answer you gave pround of yourself and your "achievements" was actually what your daughter did and you follow to school and read and see events from her life.

Game ends with you realizing that you are just her imagination trying to cope with losing her dad.

 

[Bartski]

That is it ? Overpowered weapons an armor at the end of game and then you don't have to deal with combat as twist ? In my book that is design fail, what is the point of playing game when you remove worth from main part of game ?

You have been dealing with combat, using a certain set of methods for 40+ hours straight at this point. We're at the very end of the campaign, you get new methods that totally change the way you can approach it. It's like a brand new toy, how does that remove any worth?

 

[Bartski]

Here is actual twist.

I am not talking about narrative twists, but gameplay alterations

 

[Dontero]

I am not talking about narrative twists, but gameplay alterations

But what you described is not twist but effectively cheat rendering most of combat pointless.

 

[GymWolf]

on ultra hard your are not op even with endgame weapon and armour.
that's why i always advice on using this difficulty level.

 

[Bartski]

But what you described is not twist but effectively cheat rendering most of combat pointless.

No, not at all. You just get strong enough to do certain things in a different, more ballsy way, while traversing the open world. Which is a very welcome change from hiding in bushes at this point of the game. It doesn't make you invincible.

Also, the only mission left in the campaign is so hectic you can get your ass kicked easily if you don't pay attention, even on Normal with all those upgrades enabled. Not to mention the DLC where it is expected you have all this stuff already. I'd recommend you to play the game and see for yourself.

If you have an issue with the word "twist", I'm not a native speaker maybe I could have used a more accurate expression.

 

[Dontero]

idk mate. When i play RPG i expect to have build i made to play as i want. If something completely changes how i play then that is bad design in my book. For an RPG.

 

[Steve.1981]

idk mate. When i play RPG i expect to have build i made to play as i want. If something completely changes how i play then that is bad design in my book. For an RPG.

HZD is not an RPG though. It's an action game with light RPG elements. The player can't go with different builds for Aloy. We all end up the same really. Only differences are which weapons you may prefer.

I see what you mean Bartski & I never looked at it that way. It is pretty cool, if somebody wants to just go wild after getting the Lance & Shield Weave Armour, they can. I didn't. I was too set in my ways by that point.

Another cool thing is that the player could use these tools from the start in new game +.

 

[Physiognomonics]

Refreshing twist?! It's a good story, not that great. Also, needs a lot of better direction
- it has the problem with "10 seconds of gameplay, 10 seconds of cutscene, 10 seconds of gameplay, 10 seconds of cutscene..."
- has a boring end boss
- complicated system to develop weapons and stuff
- difficulty all over the place
- so many parts with slow walking and/or saying something that is obvious
- why limiting too much the arrows bag, a basically obligatory weapon?

I am sorry but that's a positive. It's not that difficult.

 

[deriks]

I am sorry but that's a positive. It's not that difficult.

It's a positive when a level 25 dog/horse/peacock is dumber than a level 15 bird?!

 

[Vawn]

I know Horizon Zero Dawn is highly rated, but it's still underrated imo. That game does so many things great - combat, graphics, world building. And the story was way more interesting than a story about robot dinosaurs should be.

 

[Keihart]

One thing I really like is an idea where, in open-world games, the devs keep certain abilities locked until very late into the campaign, and at some point give you new tools that significantly change the gameplay making it feel fresh again.

A perfect example of such design can be found in Horizon Zero Dawn, and since it seems to be the hot topic recently due to incoming sequel announcement, might be a good moment to share some thoughts.
It would also be interesting to learn about other games I might have missed where one can find such a feature.

I also find it really strange that I didn't see it really noticed in a single review or youtube video on the subject, while to me personally, it might just be the coolest, most memorable thing about HZD, one that cemented my feelings for it as a truly awesome game.

Here we go:

The overall gameplay of most open-world Machine encounters in HZD in large, varied group combat scenarios can be described as made of two stages:

1. Ambush preparation - stealth, staying hidden, evaluating numbers, setting traps on machine routes, tripwiring spots to lure Machines to, taking down some fodder while hidden in the grass where possible. The goal is to figure out a way to deal maximum damage on the onset of the battle, giving you the upper hand when noticed.

2. Actual combat - Due to Machine strength, armor, and all mobility factors - you might begin with overriding the heaviest Machine you can, make bomb slinging or other heavy firepower AOE entry, followed by keeping the distance and precision sniping machine weak spots with the bow, constantly switching arrows to choose the right one for the job, kiting the chase into previously set traps and occasionally when enemies get to close - resort to the tearblaster, or the rattler etc.

That's all great fun, until everything changes when you reach the end "The Mountain That Fell" with just one mission left to go in the campaign.

Needless to say, in order to explain what I mean - SPOILERS of HZD final stretch to follow so if you haven't played the game, do yourself a favor and finish the campaign unspoiled and then come back to see if you also noticed it and appreciate it as much as I did.

At some point in the game you might discover a hidden cave with a pre-war facility and an armor on display. You can't enter - it requires a number of power cells to open its doors. Knowing it's guaranteed to find something cool inside you spend the game searching. If you did a good job there throughout the campaign - you find the final required cell at the very end of the "The Mountain That Fell". Running back to the cave you realize that it's an outfit with a forcefield that nullifies the damage of multiple enemy attacks until it needs to recharge. In practice though, especially on Normal difficulty, because it comes so late while you're good at the game and have all your muscle memory already in place - it makes you really hard to kill in regular mob fights.

But that's not all. Also at the end of "The Mountain That Fell" - you replace your Spear with one from Silens. It's got a substantial damage boost, also due to the additional electricity attack. It also happens to be the point of the game when you should have all your spear prowler skills unlocked...

What happens is - all of a sudden these two upgrades make it perfectly viable to go full-contact with most enemies, making spear combat your no.1 fastest and most effective method of dealing with 75% of Machines.
Completely changing how you go about what I described above as an actual combat loop, making most of the strategic, ranged approach largely redundant... Now you can just rush into a situation that would normally get you killed and obliterate mobs just with melee attacks head-on. You don't really need to outsmart and snipe them anymore.

And the reason why this works so well in my opinion - it all happens AFTER you have just spent 40-50 hours on fighting Machines using that "old", methodical way.

Clearing out final side missions becomes a breeze. It also makes you finally appreciate how good the melee is in the game, which up until this point was heavily underutilized due to being largely ineffective.
And even though it takes away all the challenge in regular fights - You've had plenty of that up until this point.

If such a change came earlier - that would obviously be a horrible idea as it is detrimental to a very satisfying, well crafted, deep strategic ranged combat.

However, at this point, it feels more than welcome - it makes the game so much more fun and feeling fresh again!
And you sill have the final mission ahead of you, with a huge battle where those two upgrades really make the difference.

That's about it. Tl;dr but I'm really curious how those of you that finished the game feel about it.
Looking forward to a jaw-dropping HZD2 reveal just as much as many of you.

The upgrades feel redudant, your character is already a killing machine mid game and strategy in combat stays virtually the same. Upgrades stop feeling like tools way too early.

Now if we are talking about constant new abilites that change the combat towards endgame, DMCV is a great example with Nero's Devil Trigger. That it's literally a last moment upgrade that makes you want to play the game all over because of how many new options it gives you.

I liked HZD because of the combat, but it got stale pretty fast for me, shit got repetitive and enemies stopped being real challenges way too early.

 

[Bartski]

DMCV is a great example with Nero's Devil Trigger. That it's literally a last moment upgrade that makes you want to play the game all over because of how many new options it gives you.

a great example indeed, this is what I'm talking about!

also, did you play Frozen Wilds? I don't remember feeling like killing machine there at all, even with that end game gear.

 

[Keihart]

a great example indeed, this is what I'm talking about!

also, did you play Frozen Wilds? I don't remember feeling like killing machine there at all, even with that end game gear.

No i didn't, might give it a shot when on sale.

 

[D.Final]

I find the post game fine.
After the Frozen Wild expansion

 

[llien]

I find it shocking that people refer to the story as "good" let alone "great".
A number of dialogs were outright idiotic.

Amazing visuals and solid game mechanics are still there, but please, do not hype the rest.

 

[turtlepowa]

I find it shocking that people refer to the story as "good" let alone "great".
A number of dialogs were outright idiotic.

Amazing visuals and solid game mechanics are still there, but please, do not hype the rest.

Biggest problem for me are the NPC and those stupid dialogues. The Horizon NPCs were totally boring and ininspired. I can't remember any of them while i still remember most Witcher 3 Npc and i played that years before Horizon. The story was ok, but how it was told ruined it for me.

I don't see how part 2 could become a great game. For me the only special thing about this game was the question "Why are there robot dinosaurs?" The rest was nice graphics, terrible human AI and Ubisoft open world formula.

 

[Teslerum]

I find it shocking that people refer to the story as "good" let alone "great".
A number of dialogs were outright idiotic.

Amazing visuals and solid game mechanics are still there, but please, do not hype the rest.

I thought the overall story was very decently executed. The sidequests though ranged from quite a few good ones to a several outright terrible ones. As in some of my least favorite of all time. You can ignore those of course.

There's also Aloy though, who is nothing but an arrogant bitch. And most of the time its her that makes the dialogue cringy. Not having the option here to at least steer her dialogue into a neutral, less snarky direction really hurt for a game that calls itself an rpg (however light those elements are).

 

[small_law]

Horizon Zero Dawn is one of the true gems of this generation. The stealth was simple and remarkably consistent. I think a lot of people got hung up on the combat, but if you figured out how to spec weapons to give them their greatest effect, things became fluid and effortless. And then there's the level of environmental fidelity in that game. I lost my shit when I saw bees.

 

[small_law]

a great example indeed, this is what I'm talking about!

also, did you play Frozen Wilds? I don't remember feeling like killing machine there at all, even with that end game gear.

I just remember fighting those damn bears. I ended up cheesing them with the sniper bow because I was too sloppy and lazy to fight them straight up. Those things were crazy.

There were definitely balance patches between the original game and the expansion. The nerfed a bunch of stuff over time, including one particular set of armor that I won't describe further.

 

[Vroadstar]

Love HZD, and glad that GG was able to make it and Sony backed it. There's room for improvement especially with melee so looking forward to HZD 2

 

[turtlepowa]

I think a lot of people got hung up on the combat, but if you figured out how to spec weapons to give them their greatest effect, things became fluid and effortless.

Are we talking about normal difficulty or above? Most people play normal and on normal gameplay was like dodge roll-bow shot-dodge roll-bow shot-dodge roll-bow shot and sometimes a melee hit. That was more than enough. I never used traps or bigger weapons.

 

[lyan]

Imagine getting a machine gun in dark souls after killing the last boss

 

[Bartski]

Imagine getting a machine gun in dark souls after killing the last boss

I imagine that would never work, also if that was a massive attack power weapon or a spell that belongs to the world of Dark Souls. 3 quick and obvious reasons:

- It would screw the core progression system of the game. You can get overpowered in a number of different ways in From Games, the moment you reach the last boss you're most likely blasting through 80% of game locations one-hit killing everything on your path anyway.
- it would highly disrupt endgame multiplayer and subsequent NG+ playthroughs.
- DLCs w would have to be tuned to that - if items to be found there should have any value they'd need to be even stronger, making such a weapon redundant asap

Which is why the Great Lord Greatsword is really nothing special.

 

[INC]

Probably the only open world game i never used fast travel in, until I fully completed and used to get the remaining trophies.

Great world, I personally enjoyed the story and characters, combat was decent and varied if you chose to play it that way (or you can fully cheese most fights, but it had variety of you want)
Great soundtrack and fxs

Yeh probably my most memorable games this gen for me.

 

[LordKasual]

That part about your power level in the ending is a really good move IMO.

Final Fantasy XV did something very similar with the Ring of the Lucii

Spoiler: FFXV spoilers

ignoring Chapter 13, which everyone hated but honestly in the unpatched release version was pretty neat to me....You are stripped of weapons and Noctis finally puts on the Ring of the Lucii that's supposed to give him full control of his powers.....which replaces his entire moveset with Death (instant kill), Holy (Deals damage when you dodge), and Alterna (Thanos Snaps EVERYTHING on the screen)

Noctis is able to absorb elements from the earth in the actual game, but with the Ring on to amplify his powers, he can literally absorb the lifeforce of living things (Death) so you basically point at enemies and they shrivel up into nothing and die

So you leave Chapter 13 but you still have the ring, and Death/Alterna work on almost everything (EVERYTHING). And in the original game, the Ring didn't actually deal any damage and Death took a while to work, so you were basiaclly playing a different game with the Ring on.

So for the rest of the game (until the very ending), Noctis is basically a fucking grim reaper that can point at shit and watch it die (Or just raise his hand and banish EVERYTHING into the void).

But if you take the ring off, you just play the game normally.

it felt pretty fucking good/creepy

 

[Bartski]

That part about your power level in the ending is a really good move IMO.
Final Fantasy XV did something very similar (...)

Never played FFXV so can't really say how it feels but I looked it up and it looks like another dope example!

One thing is to have an ending linear section where you just rain death on enemies like in Assassins Creed 3, Little Nightmares... still cool for a climax I take that for a cutscene any day...

Another is getting a new set of powerful tools or mechanics that allow you to keep playing the endgame differently, which is what this thread is all about (HZD, DMCV and now FFXV). Tnx

 

[Magik85]

For me its just an example of a very disappointing game

 

[GermanZepp]

The meele is the weakest part of the game. Awful and not fun. The stealth is op and almost break the game. Item graphics design was not clear enough too making. GG has the opportunity to build a more solid secuel if all the problems of the first are addressed.

 

[docbot]

I really liked Horizon, just finished it, but I was suprised that I was already at the end. I think the game has some pacing issues, the build up to the final battle and the battle itself happen way to quick in my opinion.

 

[Balducci30]

To me. Horizon Zero Dawn and Breath of The Wild were far and away the best games of the past generation

 

[D.Final]

I really liked Horizon, just finished it, but I was suprised that I was already at the end. I think the game has some pacing issues, the build up to the final battle and the battle itself happen way to quick in my opinion.

I've finished the Frozen Wild before the final battle