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[DevilDog]

People love to overreact and be easily offended by everything these days.

It's videogame whose sole purpose is to entertain the player who is sitting on a sofa with a plastic controller pushing some buttons. Don't look too deep into it...

This is a more humane Lara than we've seen in the past. That alone doesn't mean females = fragile nor is it a setback for women just because Lara happens to be a female. I actually find her more appealing than old school Lara who was little more than a sex object and no sold the danger around her.


Is current Lara perfect? No, but for some reason people complain about these Tomb Raider games like the games industry is full of great story telling and character development by comparison.

Personally for the next Tomb Raider, I'd tone down Rambo Lara and focus more on raiding tombs with clever puzzles. Not because of any female representation but rather because that's the type of game I want to play.

I don't think new Lara is a setback for female representation. In fact, I think Crystal Dynamics has made more of an effort make her a real person for once.

Trust me, as someone who lived (and not simply read on Wikipedia about it) through the 90's. The original Lara was nothing than a pair of tits and a Luzocade commercial.

All those are about the marketing of Lara, which I dont think many disagree was pretty embarassing back then. But marketing department and game development studios are 2 different sectors.
Was the in game content as bad as the marketing content?

I played Legend/anniversary/underworld in my time, and this is the image of Lara I have in my head.

New Lara has nothing on this imo.

 

[Commanche Raisin Toast]

I thought her 'emotional' behavior felt very real and human. Believable. Not just as a woman but as a person.

So I think in CONTRAST to unrealistic characters that aren't moved or swayed by crazy shit happening to them, she's actually behaving like most men and women alike would do if they had to deal with losing their shipmates and coming to terms with shooting other people and being shot at, etc etc.

It's all very traumatic so considering she wasn't a shaking pile of tears on the ground I see her as being strong and overcoming the immensity of her situation.

So IMO it's other games that need to rethink making the heroes cool and calm and unfazed by insane shit. Make them human. *shrug*

 

[Subpar Spatula]

Someone who climbs, runs, crawls, jumps great distances, etc. is breathing heavily and makes sounds of pain = sexual?

Y'all are being creepy. Please don't even attend an obstacle course race, gym, or sporting event with women.

 

[family_guy]

• The first game was her origin story in which she had to overcome the struggles of survival to become the Tomb Raider. For this she cried and moaned consistently with several gasps and displays of exhaustion. This point seems acceptable, since it's supposed to be a Coming of Age / Origin story, so I'm all for giving some leeway to Crystal Dynamics
• Yet the weakness evident in TR2013 was accompanied by the off-putting remark by the developers of trying to say that (male) players would want to protect her, and the fact that 3 different male characters had to save her throughout the narrative.
• Then, when Rise of the Tomb Raider came around, I expected strong-willed (murderous) Lara would be much more prominent and prevalent - her Origin story had ended, so it was time for a more adult and hard-eyed protagonist. Yet what I experienced in ROTR was constant moaning, exhaustion, gasps, and display of vulnerability. I thought the whole Coming of Age thing was over, yet the character of Lara Croft continued to display the same vulnerable characteristics from the first game. The voice director, the animation director, the script writer, and the actor seem to simply repeat the same character without realizing the consequences of the prior character development.

Sounds like how a human being would act. Keep in mind I didn't say a woman, a human being. If anything she's more believably written than most male characters in games.

 

[21XX]

It's eye rolling that Lara walked around clutching herself in pain? Right in the beginning of the game a long, sharp shard completely punctures right through her side. Is she supposed to just shrug it off?

That's not being fragile, that's being human. Through all of the horrors she endured, she pressed on. A fragile person would've given up. Who entered a wolf den to retrieve a walker talkie on behalf of an injured man who sat back at a campsite?

As I recall Uncharted 2 opened with Drake in pretty bad shape. He wasn't bouncing around like some invulnerable action dude. He was slowly lumbering around in pain. I'll take more human characters any day over invincible action heroes.

This is what I was just going to write. While I did think some of the "breathiness" was a little overplayed at points (just from a performance perspective), I think Lara in the new games is much more grounded than Drake. Drake is a super hero. Lara seems more human. The mere fact that a lot of people interpreted the vulnerability as weakness and frailty is evidence of predisposed gender traits and roles.*

(*I'm definitely not saying everyone who felt this way was being sexist or anything. Just that those concepts have been drilled into our heads for a long, long time.)

 

[DevilDog]

I thought her 'emotional' behavior felt very real and human. Believable. Not just as a woman but as a person.

So I think in CONTRAST to unrealistic characters that aren't moved or swayed by crazy shit happening to them, she's actually behaving like most men and women alike would do if they had to deal with losing their shipmates and coming to terms with shooting other people and being shot at, etc etc.

It's all very traumatic so considering she wasn't a shaking pile of tears on the ground I see her as being strong and overcoming the immensity of her situation.

So IMO it's other games that need to rethink making the heroes cool and calm and unfazed by insane shit. Make them human. *shrug*

But it's not a traumatic situation, it's an impossible situation.

That is why its so ridiculous when Lara acts the way she does after killing thousands. THOUSANDS. Noone can do that, noone can suffer a barrel of bullets in their body and still do acrobatics.

The only sensible thing Lara could do is shoot herself, since she is the biggest murderer of them all. Spec ops knows whats up.

 

[potatohead]

HOLY SHIT! I'm in!

Enjoy fam, they are some really special games.

I played Legend/anniversary/underworld in my time, and this is the image of Lara I have in my head.



New Lara has nothing on this imo.

That's the same badass unstoppable acrobat (that could die in a split second if you eff up) I got used to.

 

[Trup1aya]

Really, I think this should be added to the OP with the quotes/the source, instead of the small sentence the OP wrote there. This is major and important to know when discussing this topic.

Why, those regrettable comments differ greatly from what appeared on screen.

Lara dispatched hundreds of trained mercenaries, crazed madmen, and predatory animals- by herself. Not to mention the countless feats of superhuman athleticism. The fact that she exclaimed in pain or discomfort doesn't change those facts. She didn't need protection. She was the biggest threat on the island.

If there's an issue with her depiction , it was her poorly written rise to invulnerability.

 

[molnizzle]

Someone who climbs, runs, crawls, jumps great distances, etc. is breathing heavily and makes sounds of pain = sexual?

Yeah... More realistic depictions of characters is not something that we should discourage. I feel like OP would only be happy if Lara was depicted as a superhuman with zero flaws, but then you'd have just as many people complaining about the character being a "Mary Sue."

When I saw Lara shivering in the cold I didn't think anything of it because she was walking through a blizzard at the top of a mountain. I did notice that much of the plot focussed on her going on a grand adventure to save a male "damsel in distress," which I thought was super cool. Lara was an empowered female savior who still managed to seem human.

Great character, IMO.

 

[patapuf]

Sounds like how a human being would act. Keep in mind I didn't say a woman, a human being. If anything she's more believably written than most male characters in games.

she's really not. One of the biggest reasons the reboots characterisation falls flat is because of the writing. The plot, the side characters (they are so bad) and lara are all badly written.

The characterisation isn't consistent, her motivations change on a whim and they even completely alter them from 2013 to Rotr. She often does exactly the opposite of how the game is presenting her to be feeling etc.

It's truly below average even for an AAA game.

A more approachable YA-Novel style Lara, while generic, could have worked. But it really didn't.

Core's iteration has more depth and they used a fraction of the cutscenes.

 

[Harlequin]

I'm not sure if reboot Lara is overly sexualised or sexist in design, she probably isn't, but she's certainly badly designed from anything but a visual perspective, yes. She feels like an empty shell of a character, devoid of any proper personality, boring, at times confusing and even annoying. Many people seem to think that Core Lara was nothing but an "ice queen" but the truth is, Core Lara was mostly a fully-realised character with a personality that was not only interesting and empowering but also felt much more unique and was, above all, consistent (with one or two small exceptions, maybe). Not to mention that her backstory was a whole lot more bad-ass and far, far less cheesy and cringe-worthy. Not every action-adventure protagonist needs to have buried both their parents before their 18th birthday.

 

[Micael]

Can we please stop with the comments on the noises the character make, because maybe I misinterpreted the OP, but I really don't think his real issue is with the noises the character makes, or whether she makes them or not, it is I believe with how they try and present her as a fragile human being while at the same time triggering god Lara https://youtu.be/x_Ow26-mBGo?t=10197 , if that is a human version of Lara I wonder what previous Lara was.

 

[UnemployedVillain]

I thought her 'emotional' behavior felt very real and human. Believable. Not just as a woman but as a person.

So I think in CONTRAST to unrealistic characters that aren't moved or swayed by crazy shit happening to them, she's actually behaving like most men and women alike would do if they had to deal with losing their shipmates and coming to terms with shooting other people and being shot at, etc etc.

It's all very traumatic so considering she wasn't a shaking pile of tears on the ground I see her as being strong and overcoming the immensity of her situation.

So IMO it's other games that need to rethink making the heroes cool and calm and unfazed by insane shit. Make them human. *shrug*

Except this is ridiculous considering the tons of people she brutally murders in the newer games. It's a classic case of ludonarrative dissonance. Games where the character is unfazed actually make more sense given what the player, assuming that character, does during gameplay. The irony is that the older games actually delt with this better by having very few human enemies and mostly wild animals and other supernatural threats for her to kill

 

[family_guy]

Core's iteration has more depth and they used a fraction of the cutscenes.

Really? I mean I played the first 3 Tomb Raider games and all I got from that about Lara is that she's a badass archeologist. There's not much to her character development at all. No one walked away from those games feeling an emotional attachment to that character.

 

[AuthenticM]

yeah, I agree with you, TC.

 

[Whompa02]

Tennis sexualizes females? Jesus christ give me a break.

Nathan Drake and Lara are both examples of very SAFE designs in the modern space, without any political or social undertones. They're harmless character designs, and by being harmless, it upsets people. Now I've seen it all.

In terms of how they act in the game, yes Lara was put through some pretty gruesome moments. Was it ever sexual? No. Was it too much for some people? Yes.

 

[jelly]

I think the groans and moans are nothing more than giving life to the character. Absolutely overdone but I don't think they are about making her vulnerable. Like the story, characters, it's just bad unfortunately. I don't know what it is with Crystal Dynamics but subtlety isn't there which would help a lot to tone it down. Story, dialogue, characters are awful which rounds off a terrible package. They were a bit better in ROTR but the same faults remain and they've written themselves into a corner, they have to play it out. Get it over with and reboot.

 

[Haganeren]

I know what sexist means. However, this isn't an example of it. People are attributing a hidden message because sexism is an easy target in gaming. The real message is that NPCs rarely get the attention from animators that protagonists get.

The fact that people see this particular Lara as weak is baffling to me. Because she's hands down the strongest person in each of the last two games.

But that's NOT an argument. I don't understand why you said you understand what sexism is when i just told you it can be done even with the best intentions in the world.

Maybe Lara is not as weak as you said in this game, i have no opinion on that but the whole "the animator don't take that much time on NPC" doesn't change at all the hidden message it conveys. It's an explanation about why it's like that, not a rectification about what it conveys.

In addition of that, Lara is of course defined by other people in the game. She may be strong but if all her "masters" are even stronger male, she will be weak in comparison. I'm not even saying that it's the case, it's an hypothetical scenario i just made in order to convey my reasoning.

 

[Bossking]

Can we please stop with the comments on the noises the character make, because maybe I misinterpreted the OP, but I really don't think his real issue is with the noises the character makes, or whether she makes them or not, it is I believe with how they try and present her as a fragile human being while at the same time triggering god Lara https://youtu.be/x_Ow26-mBGo?t=10197 , if that is a human version of Lara I wonder what previous Lara was.

Good lord, that entire two minute-long segment you linked.

REALISM

 

[DevilDog]

Can we please stop with the comments on the noises the character make, because maybe I misinterpreted the OP, but I really don't think his real issue is with the noises the character makes, or whether she makes them or not, it is I believe with how they try and present her as a fragile human being while at the same time triggering god Lara https://youtu.be/x_Ow26-mBGo?t=10197 , if that is a human version of Lara I wonder what previous Lara was.

Dear lord, people want human and realistic reactions out of this?

Here is Legend.

https://youtu.be/LqQSr4rUwOQ?t=73

Not as flashy.

 

[Ralemont]

Can we please stop with the comments on the noises the character make, because maybe I misinterpreted the OP, but I really don't think his real issue is with the noises the character makes, or whether she makes them or not, it is I believe with how they try and present her as a fragile human being while at the same time triggering god Lara https://youtu.be/x_Ow26-mBGo?t=10197 , if that is a human version of Lara I wonder what previous Lara was.

Yes you misinterpreted the OP. If you want to make a separate argument about the noises juxtaposed with her superhuman gameplay style then that's fine, but your argument is absent from the OP, who specifically took issue with the noises as being a means to sexualize/weaken Lara.

 

[DoomGaze]

Make your own game I guess. You can make anyone as strong or weak, nuanced or shallow as you want.

 

[unknownhero]

Make your own game I guess. You can make anyone as strong or weak, nuanced or shallow as you want.

what a shitty comment. A poor substitute for a proper argument.

 

[tokkun]

All I can say is that Lara from Tomb Raider 2013 felt like more of a badass character to me by the end than any of the characters I have played of either gender in recent years. Certainly far more impressive than some of the super-powered female leads from the time like Bayonetta or Lightning.

There is more room for heroism and toughness from persevering through injuries and human limitations than there is from being invulnerable and godlike.

If anything, Lara was too superhuman, and would have been even more impressive if her feats were a little more believable.

 

[Haganeren]

Make your own game I guess. You can make anyone as strong or weak, nuanced or shallow as you want.

Guess we will make our own !

 

[Lime]

Yes you misinterpreted the OP. If you want to make a separate argument about the noises juxtaposed with her superhuman gameplay style then that's fine, but your argument is absent from the OP, who specifically took issue with the noises as being a means to sexualize/weaken Lara.

Nowhere did I state that it's used as sexualization (although some men might be turned on by exhaustion and vulnerability?).

The juxtaposition of vulnerability and superhuman ability (seriously that second helicopter chase is so dumb) is just another point that could be added to the original argument, both compliment one another and are not necessarily separate.

 

[Xav]

All those are about the marketing of Lara, which I dont think many disagree was pretty embarassing back then. But marketing department and game development studios are 2 different sectors.
Was the in game content as bad as the marketing content?

 

[patapuf]

Really? I mean I played the first 3 Tomb Raider games and all I got from that about Lara is that she's a badass archeologist. There's not much to her character development at all. No one walked away from those games feeling an emotional attachment to that character.

She's not the deepest character ever but look at this thread. Look at how popular she was at her height, she was liked enough that she starred in movies and music videos.

People definetly liked the character, and not just because she was marketed as attractive. Attractive women in media aren't exactly rare.


Her old characterisation is definetly less ambitious from a wrinting POV, but at least it's consitent and it works.

 

[ActWan]

Why, those regrettable comments differ greatly from what appeared on screen.

Lara dispatched hundreds of trained mercenaries, crazed madmen, and predatory animals- by herself. Not to mention the countless feats of superhuman athleticism. The fact that she exclaimed in pain or discomfort doesn't change those facts. She didn't need protection. She was the biggest threat on the island.

If there's an issue with her depiction , it was her poorly written rise to invulnerability.

Try to different the game itself from the narrative...it's the motivation for the male players as he says, to keep playing and protect her.
It doesn't matter she's basically a terminator, that's like saying Nathan Drake is a mass murderer.

I wanna avoid comments on the topic because I haven't played the games, but these quotes sure are telling and backing what the OP is saying.

 

[Commanche Raisin Toast]

Someone who climbs, runs, crawls, jumps great distances, etc. is breathing heavily and makes sounds of pain = sexual?

Y'all are being creepy. Please don't even attend an obstacle course race, gym, or sporting event with women.

Not only that but in every game where male characters are grunting and breathing and making equivalent noises it isn't considered sexual even if they would make the same noises during sex.

Cheeky Japanese fan service type games? Of course they're pushing that button. Standard Western action games? I don't buy it.

 

[Trup1aya]

But that's NOT an argument. I don't understand why you said you understand what sexism is when i just told you it can be done even with the best intentions in the world.

Maybe Lara is not as weak as you said in this game, i have no opinion on that but the whole "the animator don't take that much time on NPC" doesn't change at all the hidden message it conveys. It's an explanation about why it's like that, not a rectification about what it conveys.

In addition of that, Lara is of course defined by other people in the game. She may be strong but if all her "masters" are even stronger male, she will be weak in comparison. I'm not even saying that it's the case, it's an hypothetical scenario i just made in order to convey my reasoning.

It's not the hidden message it conveys. It's the message that you are CHOOSING to project. You can look at the situation and interpret it as Lara being weaker than her companion, but that runs counter to what we see Lara actually accomplish during the scene and throughout the rest of the games. Your interpretation is convienent because in gaming there is a tendency to portray women this way. But this franchise does not do that.

Had Lara been Larry instead, I presume you and anyone else would have simply noted that the main character got the lions share of the animators attention. However, when a woman is involved, for whatever reason, it's not enough to not only avoid sexist depictions, but also work extra hard on areas of the game that would normally be ignored similply so that people will not derive an interpretation that is sexist.

She's defeats every opposing male she came across in the game. Accept dangerous missions while her companions (male and female) sat back at camp, and also was responsible for rescuing her male companions, including the one in this clip that you say is being portrayed as "stronger".

It makes no sense.

I feel like this "controversy" is an excellent opportunity to discuss how action hero are depicted to be impervious. Lara's visual and audio performance is one of strength and triumph over grueling obstacles rather than the typical, "I make everything look easy" we see in similar games. That a female lead is one of the first to take that approach is refreshing...

Now if only the writing was good.

 

[Bossking]

I know people shit on the old Lara advertisements (and rightfully so), but the fact that Lara Croft was a popular enough female character to warrant those ads, two movies, and the Guinness World Record for most successful female video game character is amazing. That's such an incredible feat.

It's sad that such a wildly celebrated, iconic character is now spun into being complete shit, "walking tits with guns" wank-fodder that has to be rebooted into the most bland, uninspiring character stuck in the most paint-by-numbers modern shooter game in years. Lara was a unique heroine debuting in a unique game, and that's why people fell in love with her. Hell, she was essentially what everyone wanted Samus Aran to be (who has also now basically been given the same treatment).

 

[xealo]

Is this really what people took from playing rise of the tomb raider?

Vulnerable situations, yes, but it never came across as her being weak to me.
I wouldn't say the actual game implementation is sexist, even if that dev comment definitely is.

 

[SolidSnakex]

With the exception of TR2's ending, Lara's in-game character never really changed after Gard left. The marketing was another story as she was definitely marketed on her sex appeal. But as a character she remained a very confident and cocky/arrogant adventurer.

And TR64 also never materialized after he left. That's why N64 fans were so excited about "Riqa".

 

[Micael]

Yes you misinterpreted the OP. If you want to make a separate argument about the noises juxtaposed with her superhuman gameplay style then that's fine, but your argument is absent from the OP, who specifically took issue with the noises as being a means to sexualize/weaken Lara.

If that is indeed the case then my bad, I really didn't interpret his use of this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnN5hykjX7c as being an issue with the actual moaning, merely that she is a super human that is trying to be portrayed as a vulnerable mortal, regardless I have seen quite a few posts myself included:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=214926084&postcount=138

That I believe talk about the real issue (if the OP wasn't already talking about that) of the new Lara portrayal

 

[DevilDog]

lol

So the first tomb raider was made as Toby Guard wanted it to be, but the marketers went ahead and destroyed her image in their promotions.

I still don't like Lara's original design by Toby, I like her much more in the 2007+ games.

 

[Ralemont]

Nowhere did I state that it's used as sexualization (although some men might be turned on by exhaustion and vulnerability?).

It's in Grandwizard's post you quoted, but if it wasn't your intent to argue that then no worries. It does appear, however, to be an argument others are using.

 

[Stallion Dan]

Physically the new Lara is more realistic, but in every single other way she is worse than previous Lara. Gone is the confident larger than life badass who is in control of herself. That is not to say there is anything wrong with a videogame character not being realistic physically anyway. Original Lara design fit the larger than life personality perfectly.

I'll take classic Lara every day over the new one, looks weren't what made Lara Croft great.

But ironically too many people will judge original and new Lara on nothing but looks while complaining about sexism.

 

[DevilDog]

The story was simply about a girl fighting to honor her father. Why can't it be about that?

It can be, but killing the old Lara wasn't necessairy.

 

[atr0cious]

I did read the entire post. And for some reason, whenever there's a critical comment of everything being sexist or racist these days, the reply is often rude. I'm pretty sure you can do better "fuck out of here", or is that also how you interact with people when you are not on the internet?

Changing character traits can be for a multitude of reasons. The authors may have thought it's more interesting, more easy to sympathize with the character. From my personal view, they failed. It's also right to criticism them for this failure, it's also ok to criticism them for changing the personality of Lara Croft. But that doesn't automatically make it sexist.

But with how your reply is worded, it's rather evident that you're not interested in thinking outside of your narrow-minded view, where no criticism of "extremist" feminism is allowed.

Narrow minded because I called you out on saying some dumb ass MRA type shit where you know what's best. If you said, "what's wrong with feminism" to me in person, I would absolutely say the same thing. There is a whole post and all you can do is make straw men. Please show me where they said it was sexist? Besides that, this thread is about critique and you came in locked and loaded with a point the OP isn't talking about. They don't like cool icons being changed to please men, which nuLaura is all about.

 

[tkscz]

Tennis sexualizes females? Jesus christ give me a break.

Nathan Drake and Lara are both examples of very SAFE designs in the modern space, without any political or social undertones. They're harmless character designs, and by being harmless, it upsets people. Now I've seen it all.

In terms of how they act in the game, yes Lara was put through some pretty gruesome moments. Was it ever sexual? No. Was it too much for some people? Yes.

First things first, there is never a such thing as something not offensive. You are going to offend someone on a planet of 7 billion people.

In this case, you have a comparison. You have the safe sympathetic new Lara, and the sassy classy action oriented old Lara and it's up to the players to say who they like more.

So now you have people who will argue which one was more empowered, however, there is no answer to that as empowered is subjective. Some people feel empowerment comes directly from being powerful and there is little argument on which of the two are more powerful. Old Lara has shown herself far more capable than new Lara, but not everyone sees that as empowerment as some may see that as one-dimensional and bland. Others feels character development and more emotions are empowering, seeing growth and expression as a way of feeling more human and thus more powerful when new Lara accomplishes something, rather than her already just being great at it. While others see this as off putting when she fails and starts whining about it or has to be rescued. It's natural for people to need help, but some people find it better to save one's self rather than waiting.

Myself, I enjoy the more badass old Lara as it fits better with what she is trying to do. Sassing everyone she crosses but always classy about it. Keeping her cool in a bad situation and using her own skill and wit to overcome any obstacle. If she got trapped, she made her own way out and was just a more fun character to play as.

 

[chillybright]

Tennis sexualizes females? Jesus christ give me a break.

Nathan Drake and Lara are both examples of very SAFE designs in the modern space, without any political or social undertones. They're harmless character designs, and by being harmless, it upsets people. Now I've seen it all.

In terms of how they act in the game, yes Lara was put through some pretty gruesome moments. Was it ever sexual? No. Was it too much for some people? Yes.

This. Is it even possible nowdays to desgin any character, female ones especially, to not offend anyone? In the full spectrum we have from new Lara to Bayonetta, and they are both considered sexsual? I guess there is no way out then.

 

[Audioboxer]

Actually, Jonah clutches for only 5-10 seconds but his default animation is with his arms to his sides, while Lara's default animation is the clutching throughout even when they're protected from the wind.

It's telling when you contrast this to the original Tomb Raider when Lara doesn't need the help of a man during traversal. If reboot Lara was as confident in her traversal capabilities, she wouldn't need to rely on Jonah's hand-grab but would know how to make the jump by herself.

How many more games will it take until Crystal Dynamics Lara is as confident as Core Design Lara? lol

I think that is, pardon the pun, a bit reaching. It's been used a ton in UC as well. Personally I think it is about developers and story writers trying to "forge" a bond between characters, and also open up more dare defying stunts/jumps. I mean we always know our main character however close they come to death (outside of game deaths), they will always just scramble up the cliff edge. With help or without.

It is kind of the trope of death defying jumps, to be saved by another persons hand pulling you up.

Also if you really want to be technical about it happening in games where it didn't before, AI in games used to be absolutely shit, as did animation. Nowadays we actually have computer AI/animation that acts somewhat realistically to how you, the player, are reacting. Companion NPCs were pretty much non-existent in the early TR games outside of cutscenes ~ Primarily if you ask me because devs didn't have the resources or know how to really nail companion AI to have a persistent on-screen partner (or a partner there for long spells, and not just in cutscenes). They even still struggle now, and it's understandable. UC4 still needed a lot of cuts to Drake only.

So nah, I'm sorry to say, I find it mind bending to somehow buy Lara having the same kind of "saved you at the last minute!" helping hands from NPCs is derogatory to women and/or paints them as weak ¯\_(&#12484_/¯ It is simply not a one game phenomena, neither a gender phenomena. The proof is out there. Happens in many games, and to all genders and types of characters.

If anything in games it just makes me roll my eyes when they do it 500 times, the effect gets overused. Not sure how many times it happened in UC4, but it was definitely a few (Drake being saved, or Drake saving someone with a hand grab). At this point I just feel like it's totally obvious a main character is not dying from a "simple" fall, and once or twice the "saved you" gotcha in a game is okay, but not once in every 5 jumps. It's overused, it is not a statement of inferiority complex to a gender...

This is personal opinion, but really, I just think some of the expectations of TR, and some of the massive political agendas some attach to it, are just way overreaching from what a game like this is trying to deliver. It's at least becoming a bit more reality and less teenage boy fantasy since becoming more realistic, which is good, and there is still room for improvement, but again, some expectations for the purpose of TR and Lara as a character really need to be scaled back a bit. I said it earlier in this topic, but save some of that passion and expectation for real life actors, and the scripts and content they produce. Gaming will largely never reach the heights of having a real actor act and react to a situation, mainly because for large parts you need to suspend belief/reality, in so far as Lara, Drake and whoever else can actually survive these falls/jumps and all the shooting scenes.

 

[Ludger Kresnik]

Why, those regrettable comments differ greatly from what appeared on screen.

Lara dispatched hundreds of trained mercenaries, crazed madmen, and predatory animals- by herself. Not to mention the countless feats of superhuman athleticism. The fact that she exclaimed in pain or discomfort doesn't change those facts. She didn't need protection. She was the biggest threat on the island.

If there's an issue with her depiction , it was her poorly written rise to invulnerability.

They even did this better in TR Anniversary, a remake of TR1/prequel to Legend, which already has her in badass mode from the beginning. She kills a person for the first time late in that game, and it's a really big deal to her. She feels guilty as hell. It helps that there's only like two more human enemies after that point, which doesn't undermine that internal struggle as much as the reboot did.

 

[Messofanego]

When was this Lara meant to be a bastion of female representation and a window into womens' struggles?

I'm trying to understand why we are tacking on social issues here? The story was simply about a girl fighting to honor her father. Why can't it be about that?

When the original creator, Toby Gard, said so?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtzY8Ml3f1Y&t=28m25s

As Gard explains in GameTap‘s documentary, the majority of mainstream videogames before Tomb Raider had portrayed women as objects (“damsels in distress, or just terrible fantasy dominatrix-y type of characters”). They were restricted to playing supporting roles (with only a handful being the exception, including Metroid’s Samus Aran), and were almost always subservient to the leading men and the gaze of the assumed male player. This is why Eidos, the publisher, took some convincing on the idea of Lara Croft. She not only took what was traditionally a man’s role, she was a strong woman in her own right, dangerous, intelligent, and attractive. In Tomb Raider, we learn that Lara is a freelance adventurer and archaeologist, and she plays for sport over money, meaning that her time is as flexible as her body. She’s independent outside of her job, too, as she has recently moved into an expensive mansion that she bought for herself, alone. Her hips are not for bearing the babies of any man she may fall in love with; they are where her gun holsters lie.​

 

[staticneuron]

So nah, I'm sorry to say, I find it mind bending to somehow buy Lara having the same kind of "saved you at the last minute!" helping hands from NPCs is derogatory to women and/or paints them as weak ¯\_(&#12484_/¯

If anything in games it just makes me roll my eyes when they do it 500 times, the effect gets overused. Not sure how many times it happened in UC4, but it was definitely a few (Drake being saved, or Drake saving someone with a hand grab). At this point I just feel like it's totally obvious a main character is not dying from a "simple" fall, and once or twice the "saved you" gotcha in a game is okay, but not once in every 5 jumps.

This is what seems to be the crux of the situation. The new Tomb Raider draws alot from UC imo, with the exception of certain thematic elements that I will address later. But for the most parts, the grunts during exertion, needing help in jumps and climbs that are just a bit beyond them (human ability, remember Drake and Lara are still human). Characterizing Jonah as some unstoppable unfeeling guy, if you watch the video he does cover himself often, He is less perturbed by the wind obviously because of his size.

For the most part I don't think Lara is weak nor really needing help for most of the game. She seems a little bit silly some of the things her character does, but I am going to chalk that up to reboot.

But with that said, the original reboot was odd as hell. Like other posters pointed out, it had that "descent" type of feel from the movie. The game for the most part seemed more like thriller/horror with adventure elements in between. That and all the gruesome possible deaths, just didn't remind me of any Tomb Raider I played before, I was feeling more like an action based Resident Evil. Imo, RoTR was the better experience of the two. Both are playable and fun, just the first one was off tonally.

 

[Trup1aya]

Try to different the game itself from the narrative...it's the motivation for the male players as he says, to keep playing and protect her.
It doesn't matter she's basically a terminator, that's like saying Nathan Drake is a mass murderer.

I wanna avoid comments on the topic because I haven't played the games, but these quotes sure are telling and backing what the OP is saying.

Lol what?

What do you think motivated the player to keep Lara alive? For me it was the desire to progress through the game and finish it... The EXACT same motivation I have to keep any other protagonist alive... Staying alive is usaully a requirement in any game.

Like I said that developers comments were regrettable, but Lara's depiction in the game did not actually have the effect that he described.

I can't ignore the irony of people who do not like the rebooted Lara, taking these efforts to protect and defend her, when is clearly a powerful, independent human being who certainly doesn't settle with being a victim.

 

[Htown]

I really preferred the version of Lara that had her shit together. Confident, competent, and always felt like she was powerful even when facing ridiculous odds.

It also felt like she was a smarter character, but that's probably just a result of the gameplay being more puzzle focused in the other games.

 

[DriftingSpirit]

I disagree with that quote in the OP from wizard on The Last of Us. Ellie is fervent, independent and strong. She protects and saves Joel several times. I'm not seeing this vulnerability with her.

 

[Garlador]

hat and all the gruesome possible deaths, just didn't remind me of any Tomb Raider I played before, I was feeling more like an action based Resident Evil. Imo, RoTR was the better experience of the two. Both are playable and fun, just the first one was off tonally.

Really? I always found the games had violent and creative deaths.