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[Tulipanzo]

We came to this point by concentrated power of will! We were never meant to be here, but we made it, finally, we can jump in the shoes of Masterchiefs' tales again and his journey will be infinite this time. An endless loop of true awesomeness, so sit back and relax, but especially enjoy the ride!

Ohh and let me calculate something and you can tell me what it is:
1) 10,000,000 * 14,99 * 12 = 1,798,800,800
2) 15,000,000 * 14,99 * 12 = 2,698,200,000
3) 20,000,000 * 14,99 * 12= 3,597,600,000
4) 25,000,000 * 14,99 * 12 = 4,497,000,000
...

You know the difference between revenue and profit right?
GP, like most subscription services, is a money sink, and a big reason why Halo (and let's be honest, Forza) is going to be GaaS for 10 years

 

[Demon2blades]

Yes you are forgetting the new Horizon and the full fledged GT7, even without a date they exist and were revealed to the world at that show!
And, why are people acting like Demons Souls is just ok, after years of being in the top of the remakes wishing list on the nets... i just don't get it.

I think some people don't see how significant a full fat gt will be it'll be massive , you're right about demon souls remake aswell the fans have been asking for a remake forever .

 

[Whitecrow]

Honestly, no idea.

I always thought Spencer was a PR robot, but at the same time I expected great things behind the scenes...

Seems like more people besides Phil is doing a terrible job...

 

[azz0r]

loool is that real?

 

[I Love Rock 'n' Roll]

It's worse.

At least we could watch TV on XO... (only available in certain contries) and Kinect to talk to (only available in certain languages).

 

[Orky]

lol not really, let's wait until the console launches. We will see how the final sales numbers compare. Especially now during covid-19 where not many people have a lot of money.

Especially with Game Pass people will easily prefer Xbox.

Get Xbox $499+free game pass included for 6 Months HUNDREDS of games day one!
Compared to PS5 $499+3x$70 = $710 lol

we will see how the final sales will be.

 

[Dr.D00p]

Its not about teraflops or polygons its about the basic truth that Micorsoft's 1st party developers are not in the same league as Sony's, either technically or more importantly, creatively.

They simply have nothing that has interested me since about 2012.

 

[DavidGzz]

What a joke. Plenty of games and I get to play them on Game Pass. All kinds of money saved.

 

[ZZZZ]

They are in a worse position to me and don't get me wrong, memes are not as bad as they were before but hear me out...

They went head to head with Sony at the end of 2012-3, ~80 million consoles for both of them, they had a bigger audience back in the day, people jump from 360 to PS4 at an alarming rate... Now, people won't be jumping from console to console like in 2013, but they are in a worse scenario because they have no install base that wants the new Xbox, they needed to do something to attract the people they lose, but after today, I think they are losing more people even if they are not losing people as they did in 13'

How can you say that?
Xbox one was 100 dollars more expensive and a weaker console.
So if you wanted the best version of Battlefield, Cod, Fifa the casual gamer went and bought the PS4 and it was 100 dollars cheaper as well.

What if the new Xbox costs the same as the PS5 and they come out and say, Play Cyberpunk and Call of duty with better graphics and framerate while not paying a dollar more.

Sure i expect Sony to beat Microsoft easily again this generation if this keeps up but they are nowhere near as bad as 2013, at least for now.

 

[Slings and Arrows]

They are building on that. It's their entire strategy this gen. Release a powerful console, put in little effort to use that power in terms of software, and rake in the subscription money.

The quicker people realise that MS doesn't have an identity in gaming anymore the better. Their strategy is whatever is making the most money at the time and that has kept changing for them.

At the beginning with OG XBox it was all about hardcore games. That continued in early 360 but by the end of the 360 that was motion controls and avatar microtransactions. Early xbox one they thought it would be the same + TV, until late xbox one it was selling subscriptions.

A lot of people are happy with gamepass' value but I remember A LOT of people were singing about the value of EA Access too but honestly it just means EA and MS are just quietly making a lot of money with little to no effort now. They don't even give a shit if you buy a Series X, really.

This is a very, very good post. Thank you.

 

[John Wick]

I know you're joking as usual, but MS are really not in the same position as in 2013. Nowhere near as bad.

Whenever I hear about a venture from a trillion dollar corporation being the underdog I can't help laughing though.

They had billions in the bank when they went up against Android and IOS with Windows mobile. What happened? Same with Search vs Google. The Billions didn't help then either.

 

[Three]

They had billions in the bank when they went up against Android and IOS with Windows mobile. What happened? Same with Search vs Google. The Billions didn't help then either.

They took their wallet out and bought Nokia and tried to compete. The issue is nobody wanted to build apps for them because nobody had a windows phone and nobody had a windows phone because nobody wanted to build apps for them. Wait a minute, might be the same here .

 

[Eliciel]

You know the difference between revenue and profit right?
GP, like most subscription services, is a money sink, and a big reason why Halo (and let's be honest, Forza) is going to be GaaS for 10 years

The answer to your question is: Yes, I do.

Let me ask you now:
So you know the ratio of Profit and Revenue at Microsoft? Please enlighten me, otherwise better to have any orientatiom than none?

Nevertheless, I fully agree that on average These Things are Money sinks, but also creatively toxic Environments. It's Like all you can eat, don't expext the food to be the best you ever had If you are merely paying a price of a Single dish.

 

[Stilton Disco]

Edited:

Sony wants to make interactive movies.

For their big blockbuster games, definitely.

But that's not the only form of art they take inspiration from.

You've also got Ballet:

60's psychedelica:

Comedy:

Graffiti:

And a whole swathe of first to third party timed and full exclusives, all designed to sell the system by being a unique artistic expression that will speak to someone in a way no other game will.

They're not big hitters, they're not mainstream games and hell, they're often not even profitable, but they get made because they help to make Playstation appeal to everyone, no matter how niche their tastes, as well as demonstrate a commitment to making games because of a passion for the medium, not just out of a care for their bottom line.

It's what set Sony apart, both on a macro and micro scale, and allowed them a success unmatched in the industry and catering to a literal planets worth of varying tastes.

It's not the focus on pure gameplay and fun some people want, but Nintendo are the undisputed kings of that, and the two companies thus are able to thrive side by side without stepping on each others toes.

Meanwhile Xbox has...what, exactly?

It's better at gameplay than Sony, but no where near as good at it as Nintendo.

It's better at storytelling than Nintendo, but no where near as good at it as Sony.

The only real strengths I can point to is online infrastructure, which is worthless without a strong identity or the games to use it, being cheap and not needing to own their hardware, which hardly seems to be a strength as a platform holder, and having the most powerful hardware going, but that's pointless when those games still aren't as good Sony or Nintendo's.

 

[Tulipanzo]

The answer to your question is: Yes, I do.

Let me ask you now:
So you know the ratio of Profit and Revenue at Microsoft? Please enlighten me, otherwise better to have any orientatiom than none? [Your "orientation" here is completely made up to present GP as a good idea, while I'm comparing it to the known profitability of similar subscriptions. We don't know for certain, but it's highly unlikely to be profitable, given games cost more than TV/movies]

Nevertheless, I fully agree that on average These Things are Money sinks, but also creatively toxic Environments. It's Like all you can eat, don't expext the food to be the best you ever had If you are merely paying a price of a Single dish.

Man, you need to try better all you can eat places

 

[Eliciel]

Man, you need to try better all you can eat places

Well, it's all based on experience. I personally stopped going to these places many years ago including chinese buffett. Food was very mediocre most of the time..

I prefer eating good food but less to be honest.


Edit: In regards to your comments: then Why does Microsoft force the subscription model so much If it is so bad in Terms of Profitability

 

[Humdinger]

I think people are being too negative. I wasn't impressed with the presentation, but it wasn't that bad. Sony's wasn't all that great, either. People who are saying this was the worst, MS has fallen flat on their face, lost the generation, etc. -- they've really lost perspective. This is not all that different than the E3 unreasonable-hype-followed-by-disappointment cycle we get every year (only more amplified because of the new gen). It's a tempest in a teacup for a while, but then in a couple months, everyone forgets about it and moves on.

There were plenty of good to decent games shown. They might not be games you want to play, but there were lots of games shown, at least in trailer form.

Remember, too, MS is prioritizing subscriptions and value for the dollar (GP), not sales of the new system. They really don't care all that much if you buy the XSX. They want to persuade you to be part of the Xbox ecosystem, because of all the great (cheap) games you can play on Gamepass. It's a value proposition, not a "look at these next-gen games" proposition.

I suspect MS will be just fine. I think XSX will sell reasonably well, and GP will continue to grow. In terms of powerful system selling exclusives, I think we have to wait a few years.

 

[Tumle]

My friend who is a Nintendo fanboy who hates Sony is really banking on gamepass to destroy Sony though.

He was hyping the Xbox show yesterday to high heavens and went on to laugh at stupid Sony fanboys who pay full price for games on day 1.

Which is contradictory since as a Nintendo fanboy, he takes pride in Switch/Nintendo games holding their prices at full value even after many years later.

How old is your friend, 5?

 

[Ozzie666]

Not sure which thread to post this in, but, I find it curious that Digital Foundry has been rather silent since the reveal conference. They are usually pretty pro Xbox, far as I can tell. I was looking forward to their breakdown of the show.

 

[DeltaPolarBear]

I think people are being too negative. I wasn't impressed with the presentation, but it wasn't that bad. Sony's wasn't all that great, either. People who are saying this was the worst, MS has lost the generation -- they've really lost perspective. This was similar to the E3 hype-disappointment cycle we get every year (only more amplified because of the new gen).

There were plenty of good to decent games shown. They might not be your cup of tea -- most of them weren't mine -- but there were lots of games.

Remember, too, MS is prioritizing subscriptions and value for the dollar (GP), not sales of the new system. They really don't care all that much if you buy the XSX. They want to persuade you to be part of the Xbox ecosystem, because of all the great (cheap) games you can play on Gamepass. It's a value proposition, not a "look at these next-gen games" proposition.

The whole point is that Xbox needed badly to impress, because they are already the underdog here. It isn't that people are being tougher on Xbox but that they needed a good reason to switch. And now that Xbox Series X is NOT clearly better, the writing is on the wall.
PS3 started out badly, but Sony has PS2's good will to ride out the tough times. If Series X started out badly, there is no buffer for the Xbox Division.

And also, you know what convinces people to be a part of an ecosystem? Impressive Games. Nintendo's online infrastructure is shit, but people still sign up because of the games. If you think being cheap is a substitute to good games, you only have to look at how Xbox One had been cheaper than PS4 for the majority of its life, and yet it sold worse.

 

[Humdinger]

The whole point is that Xbox needed badly to impress, because they are already the underdog here. It isn't that people are being tougher on Xbox but that they needed a good reason to switch. And now that Xbox Series X is NOT clearly better, the writing is on the wall.

I don't think that's accurate, though. I don't think "Xbox badly needed to impress" or that their mission was to give PS owners "a good reason to switch."

As I said in my post, their priority is not to sell the new console. That is what you would like them to do, but that is not their own priority. That is what you think they should do, but that is not what MS is intending to do. MS want to keep current customers happy and draw in some new ones. From that vantage point, showing a lot of games (without particular regard for whether they look "next gen" or not) makes perfect sense. "Look at all these games that are coming to Xbox (i.e., Gamepass). You can play them all for pennies on the dollar! Save big money! K-Mart blue light special" (do they still have those?).

It's just a different set of goals or priorities.

PS3 started out badly, but Sony has PS2's good will to ride out the tough times. If Series X started out badly, there is no buffer for the Xbox Division.

There are something like 50 million Xbox owners around the world. You talk as if they are starting from zero. There is plenty of good will out there for Xbox. You just don't hear it much around here.

I'm saying this as someone who's been a PS4-only owner this whole gen and has found (still finds) Xbox's offerings unappealing. I'm not trying to defend Xbox, so don't confuse me with a green savior. I'm just trying to temper all the negativity with a little perspective.

And also, you know what convinces people to be a part of an ecosystem? Impressive Games. Nintendo's online infrastructure is shit, but people still sign up because of the games. If you think being cheap is a substitute to good games, you only have to look at how Xbox One had been cheaper than PS4 for the majority of its life, and yet it sold worse.

Well, you'll have to explain the massive growth of Gamepass, then, if their ecosystem doesn't have any impressive games to play. This conference just loaded a couple dozen more on to the plate.

Personally, I don't find the GP option appealing. I don't game that much, and I am pretty selective in what I give my gaming time to. The cost isn't a big factor for me, as I've got plenty of spending money. GP seems like a good value for people who spend a lot more time gaming than I do, or for people who are strapped for cash. But I can't deny its appeal to a wide segment of gamers.

p.s. Console sales are just one metric of success, not the only one. You can be successful as a company while holding a #2 or even #3 sales position. Profit, not sales, is the key, and MS has multiple profit streams apart from raw console sales. I'm not saying console sales are unimportant, but they're not the whole picture.

 

[Clarissa]

How old is your friend, 5?

40

 

[Clear]

As I've been saying for months the real problem is in how MS are marketing Xbox, its all over the place.

On one hand they hype SX on the basis of it being the most powerful console ever, but then don't go all-in on utilizing that power and in so doing let down the tech-heads.

What's worse is that they already had the "world's most powerful console" in the One X, and not only have they barely supported it outside of a few enhancement patches, they discontinue the device in the run up to launching the next gen!

This is just one of many problems that are happening because they are trying to serve two masters; Xbox as a hardware platform and GamePass the service platform they would prefer to be focusing on going forwards.

 

[Quezacolt]

The whole point is that Xbox needed badly to impress, because they are already the underdog here. It isn't that people are being tougher on Xbox but that they needed a good reason to switch. And now that Xbox Series X is NOT clearly better, the writing is on the wall.
PS3 started out badly, but Sony has PS2's good will to ride out the tough times. If Series X started out badly, there is no buffer for the Xbox Division.

And also, you know what convinces people to be a part of an ecosystem? Impressive Games. Nintendo's online infrastructure is shit, but people still sign up because of the games. If you think being cheap is a substitute to good games, you only have to look at how Xbox One had been cheaper than PS4 for the majority of its life, and yet it sold worse.

You are absolutelly right. Looking back to the OG xbox, what made people love that console was the amazing games, like Kotor, jade empire, halo, project gotham, etc... and that continued through the 360. It was never because the console itself was the most powerful, or because of xbox live itself, because those dont matter if the games are crap.

MS lost sight of what is important, now they only spew "most powerful" or "gamepass". Those should be bonuses, not the whole reason to own the console.

Show impressive games, listen to your fans. These are things they should be doing, instead, in these last 7 years the only thing they were able to get right was BC and gamepass, but that doesnt matter if you can play current gen games + better exclusives in the opposing console.

 

[alabtrosMyster]

Replace that with Phil's face!

Such a classic gif!

Yes please.

Phil: Bend over and wait some more
You: Yes please.

 

[Shmunter]

During 360 they had game enthusiasts leading the gaming division. Now they have SaaS engineers pretending to be gamers.

 

[badnewsbeers]

I've said it before and I'll say it again.

Nintendo want to make toys.

Sony want to make art.

Microsoft want to expand their business portfolio.

I think that's why the show was far more about shoving as many games as possible on Gamepass, for as many platforms as can run them, rather than focusing on making the XSX look like the only system anyone should even be considering playing games on.

Very apt. The way the Microsoft execs speak really supports your argument too. I work in management at a large company and it’s the same thing for us - a lot of people talking just to say words without really having much meaning. A lot of buzzwords thrown around. Microsoft does that, I find Nintendo and Sony don’t.

 

[joe_zazen]

I know you're joking as usual, but MS are really not in the same position as in 2013. Nowhere near as bad.

Whenever I hear about a venture from a trillion dollar corporation being the underdog I can't help laughing though.

trillion dollar american tech corporation, with ties to the cia and us DoD.

 

[ambar_hitman]

They just don't have the gaming dna. Execs ruin everything

 

[joe_zazen]

lol not really, let's wait until the console launches. We will see how the final sales numbers compare. Especially now during covid-19 where not many people have a lot of money.

Especially with Game Pass people will easily prefer Xbox.

Get Xbox $499+free game pass included for 6 Months HUNDREDS of games day one!
Compared to PS5 $499+3x$70 = $710 lol

we will see how the final sales will be.

1) i was thinking this too, except with a $249 xss. But even at $249, you still need hype to get people to spend money beyond gamepass.

2) Sony has psnow with 900 games

I do believe that xss is going to force sony to make ps5 $399 no later than fall 2021. First 6-12 months, they can sell lots of $499 ps5s.

 

[Crimson_Fate]

Microsoft could have had a show where they just announced the final price and pre-orders and they likely would have stayed riding that wave .

Instead they promised something they just could not deliver, "GAMES and GAMEPLAY".

I mean, microsoft had months to pick their scenes , even if it was a waste of their studio's time they could of had them work exclusively on producing 5 minutes of "NEXTGEN" gamesplay to sell the console

The crazy thing is if Halo was being developed on a PC you would have expected it to look even better.

Pre-show they mentioned they would not be talking about anything but games, no specs, no devices.... All they talked about was gamespass . This was a damn infomercial to sell a service. I mean do they think we are all idiots... They could have had a crazy great show and then next time told people about gamepass and how all off those titles would be free.

I mean.. they actually had me thinking about switching camps and now (like last gen) there is not a chance in hell.

 

[Steve.1981]

Phil: Bend over and wait some more
You: Yes please.

If that's the way you want to twist my words, sure.

Seems pretty childish & pointless, but go ahead & have your fun

 

[BabyfaceRe]

There does seem to be a ton of hate for this and I'm a bit confused at to why .
Sony only showed a few more AAAs than xbox and only a few had dates.
Xbox still has 10 studios that didnt announce anything and oh yeah for the price of 1 PS game you get 5 months of gamepass.
Generally I would 'consumers' want value for money and high quality, xbox console is clearly more powerful and is more value for money by about 1000 miles. I know gamers want exclusives (I'm one of them) but we saw a few of them 2 and that wasnt even half the studios.
I wasnt blown away but the hate seems really strong for this.

 

[Bitmap Frogs]

Aaron Greenberg is a liability to Xbox marketing.
Sarah Bond did what she did last time - she talked fluff for over minute with nothing to show for it.

Hear hear.

 

[PresetError]

Under Phil Spencer Xbox has always had a problem transitioning from promise to facts. Could it be Phil Spencer main strenght and weakness is the same quality of being able to generate hype?

 

[Vawn]

How the hell did this happen so suddenly?

They hyped up two back to back events to hell. Especially, the second one where they basically kept saying, "we realize we've been behind on quality games, but we've been working in it for years and it will all pay off when you see this show".

And then.... well, you saw the shows.

 

[Freeman]

It was bound to happen, MS can't help themselves but to over promise and under deliver.

All the studios they bought hardly make up for all the years they neglected their internal development and how little they fostered new IPs.

They repeated the exact same mistake of their past event, almost no gameplay and a bunch of unimpressive games.

 

[Journey]

2013!? Is this topic the epitome of hyperbole?

 

[VAVA Mk2]

Halo completely underwhelmed. It did not look next gen and it was what they were banking on being a system seller at launch. They blew it.

 

[John Wick]

My friend who is a Nintendo fanboy who hates Sony is really banking on gamepass to destroy Sony though.

He was hyping the Xbox show yesterday to high heavens and went on to laugh at stupid Sony fanboys who pay full price for games on day 1.

Which is contradictory since as a Nintendo fanboy, he takes pride in Switch/Nintendo games holding their prices at full value even after many years later.

He probably enjoys paying more

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

Does it feel like a carefully-constructed media / PR bubble suddenly popping when the substance behind the marketing is observed by the customers?

 

[Kerotan]

Xbox will be fine I think. It took Sony a loong time to be able to have a consistent quality output and MS just started putting their shit together only 2 years ago.

Keep drinking that Spencer kool aid. People like you are the reason Phil keeps talking shit. He knows there are gullables who will lap it up.

 

[CitizenX]

yeah,thats why xbox division is losing money right and left

Losing $$$ when they just HAD their biggest qrt. ever without, as i said, doing anything. THATS why PS and the sheep are stil around.

 

[dilbag]

Maybe I am just getting older but nothing looks super cool going into next gen.

even the Xbox One had Titanfall which at the time looks incredible. The xbox series x needed a killer game and atm the thing I am most excited for is saving money with gamepass but none of the games looked like must plays on the next gen system.

 

[lastmessiah]

All I saw was a bunch of games being showcased that I might want to play. How is that damaging for Microsoft? I thought it was all about the games?

 

[user friendly]

I don’t follow along as I used to but it seemed they were hyping this show up quite a bit, like they legitimately had something special to show. I know they need to generate some excitement and I have to be honest here and say that all the system specs power talk and the fact that halo was going to be shown had me hyped. I was ready to see more next gen and specifically next gen visuals.

Sony’s wasn't that impressive either but they didn't seem to try and hype it as much, although I think they were saying “next gen starts here” or something. They showed the system at the show as well, which was a bit of a distraction to the fact that the rest of the show was pretty average.

I was hoping to see something new and exciting but nothing much caught my eye.

 

[CrysisFreak]

Yeah I thought this show would heal cancer considering how much they hyped it up.
MS marketing people sit the fuck down do not ever overpromise you are harming your own developers with this jeez.

 

[Entroyp]

Keep drinking that Spencer kool aid. People like you are the reason Phil keeps talking shit. He knows there are gullables who will lap it up.

I suggest you look at my post history . I have no love for Spencer or anyone on xbox leadership.

Hell, I haven’t had an xbox since 2010.

 

[teezzy]

It’s because they don’t fundamentally seem to understand anymore what types of exclusive games get the hype talking.

Back in the day they did.

OG Xbox
- Halo
- Ninja Gaiden
- Rallisport Challenge
- Panzer Dragoon
- Jet Set Radio
- Amped
- Splinter Cell

360
- Perfect Dark
- PGR
- Alan Wake
- CoD2
- Crackdown
- Condemned
- Quake 4
- KOTOR

Interesting games and franchises from recognised top tier studios. Pretty much Sony’s PS5 approach and the exact opposite of Series X approach.

What's weird to me is that they didn't have the sense to at least tease Banjo or Perfect Dark in any way, shape, or form. Like - how is nobody working on those? Where was this big Initiative game I keep hearing about? Last night was the time to showcase that.

Their fanbase goes, "Oh new Xbox?! Hell yeah - Banjo baaaybyyy!!!" and they can't even whip up some quick CGI shit. Did they not see the pop Banjo's appearance in Smash got?!

Despite their adoration of Backwards Compatibility with games and accessories, Microsoft seems entirely ignorant of their own heritage.

People want to feel nostalgic warm fuzzies about Xbox the same way they do about Playstation and Nintendo. For whatever reason, Phil isn't playing that card.

They should buy WB Games and just have them work like slaves sewing soccer balls and pushing out Rare IPs.

 

[Hendrick's]

I think people are being too negative. I wasn't impressed with the presentation, but it wasn't that bad. Sony's wasn't all that great, either. People who are saying this was the worst, MS has fallen flat on their face, lost the generation, etc. -- they've really lost perspective. This is not all that different than the E3 unreasonable-hype-followed-by-disappointment cycle we get every year (only more amplified because of the new gen). It's a tempest in a teacup for a while, but then in a couple months, everyone forgets about it and moves on.

There were plenty of good to decent games shown. They might not be games you want to play, but there were lots of games shown, at least in trailer form.

Remember, too, MS is prioritizing subscriptions and value for the dollar (GP), not sales of the new system. They really don't care all that much if you buy the XSX. They want to persuade you to be part of the Xbox ecosystem, because of all the great (cheap) games you can play on Gamepass. It's a value proposition, not a "look at these next-gen games" proposition.

I suspect MS will be just fine. I think XSX will sell reasonably well, and GP will continue to grow. In terms of powerful system selling exclusives, I think we have to wait a few years.

Stop being realistic and level headed. This is forum stakes and it's all or nothing.