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Is Avengers:Endgame under appreciated?

pramod

Member
You might scoff at the notion, how can the biggest movie of all time be under appreciated? But the fact is most people consider Infinity War to be a "better" movie, but now, with some reflection and the passage of time, ive come to appreciate Endgame a lot more for these reasons.

Endgame really isnt a typical MCU action movie. IW was almost all non stop action. But Endgame except for the end battle, was all dialogue and character interaction. It was the last time we got to see all the Avengers together interact outside of fighting. And its even better here because they added Rhodey, Antman and some of the Guardians. Its like how those party and farm scenes in Age of Ultron were well regarded but not the movie itself.

And i think both ScarJo and RDJ really showed their acting chops here. Especially Scarjo she really knocked it out of the park all her scenes were so good.

Even the time heist (which btw still makes no sense and is still the films biggest problem) was mostly dialogue and drama and very little fighting.

Anyway if you just take the first hour and half of Endgame and add the climactic battle to that then its almost a perfect movie just imho.
 
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pramod

Member
It's overrated, doesn't matter how much money it made.
Why do u think its overrated?

Actually most critics already say IW is better but do u actually consider Endgame to be a bad movie?

But i will not disagree that IW was a much better first time experience. But if you take away the shock of all the heroes losing, which movie is actually more rewatchable?
 
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sol_bad

Member
Endgame made me cry like a mother fucker, easily the best movie. I loved all the time travelling alternate realitiy elements.

Very touching seeing Tony be with his dad and Thor with his mum. Frigga was done dirty and her death had no emotional weight in The Dark World.
 
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Labolas

Member
Im Not No Way GIF
 
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kunonabi

Member
It's painfully overrated if anything. It completely tanks just about everybody's character arcs or just plain assassinates their characters, wastes all the work they put in Thanos, the humor and action were tacky and dull respectfully, it leaves out or flubs various payoffs, and basically shits itself when trying to set things up for the future. It has some navel gazing fan service that occasionally works and not much else.
 

pramod

Member
Honestly, I think its absolutely the best film in the whole MCU. Its the culmination of what I think will be looked at as the golden age of the MCU.
I don't think Marvel is going to be able to replicate the magic they had with the first four phases. Mainly because I think they underestimate just how much RDJ, Chris Evans, Scarjo and others meant to the films. Recent casting hasn't been on point like the beginning, neither in terms of star power or even just casting the right person for the role.

Yeah, I think this is the main thing that people don't appreciate. RDJ maybe wasn't a mega star yet, but Samuel L Jackson, ScarJo, and even Jeremy Renner were as close to the top A++ caliber of Hollywood stars as you can get, and they had them playing "minor" heroes! It's just ridiculous
how much star power the original 3 phases had. Even someone like Don Cheadle...heck he was in Oscar nominated films long before joining the Avengers as a "minor" character. But as Phase 4 came around....most of that star power is gone, and it's quite evident.

When you had RDJ, Scarjo, Evans, Hemsworth, Renner, and SLJ in one room together...the amount of charisma and star power there is just ridiculous. Will the MCU ever come close to that level again?
 
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YCoCg

Member
Endgame works for it being the end of an era and a send off for some characters but sadly it does suffer from bloat in terms of having to do that AND explain the time travel plan AND execute the time travel plan AND work around the failings of the time travel plan showing detours, etc, as well as also explaining the five year gap, catching the audience up on what's gone on, etc, etc.

Infinity War was just a rollercoaster of action, it doesn't feel like a 2+ hour movie and it's crazy to think it just covers one 24 hour time period of all that shit going down. Infinity War succeeded as a movie that relied on you, the audience, to come into this knowing the characters and what not as it just hits the gas right away and because of that it's easily the more rewatchable movie.
 

sol_bad

Member
Let's get one thing straight re the actors.
RDJ was not star power when he was hired for Stark, the studio heads wanted nothing to do with him.
Chris Hemsworth was literally unknown when he was hired.
Scarlet Johansen was basically unknown, yeah she was in Lost in Translation way back in 2003. Her only 2 other notable roles were in The Island and The Prestige and most people forget she's in The Prestige.
Chris Evans, not a big name, people knew him from the FF movies but they weren't the best movies.
Don Cheadle also did not have star power, people knew him but weren't sure what movies he was from.

The MCU put these actors on the map.
 

The Skull

Member
Infinity war is superior for me. I was left disappointed when the trailers for Endgame painted it out to be a more mature film but ultimately wasn't. I just felt the tone of the movie was all over the place when you had Ronin slicing up triads one scene to fat Thor screaming at kids on Fortnite and hipster hulk the next. Any serious parts in the movie were undercut by jokes.
 

FunkMiller

Gold Member
It’s certainly better than everything that’s come after it.

Like being served a half decent steak one night, then cheap burgers for every night since. Infinity War was a good bit of fillet.

I‘m hungry now.
 

HoodWinked

Member
I remember post Endgame people were saying how it wasn't as good as infinity war and I was thinking they were both excellent.

Parts of Endgame were sloppy like everything with captain marvel and how Thanos was somehow stronger without the stones and the funeral scene.

While time travel is kind of a gimmick it was a perfect device to revisit so much of what it took to build to this conclusion. And losing the two main leads of the MCU actually made the story have stakes.
 

GymWolf

Gold Member
The opposite, the previous movie is like 100x times better.

For the first 2 hours it was like looking to an high budget episode of legend of tomorrow...

And not sure who the fuck thought that doc hulk, fat thor or the boring shit with his mother was a good idea for such an "epic conclusion".

And then you have this fucking scene


And thanos being manhandled like a bitch by redhead and captain assless (at least he get rid of the second one after a while)

The highlight was the capt america part with thor hammer, shit was good.

In conclusion, not really a fan in the slightest.
 
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Camreezie

Member
Infinity war is a lot better. Endgame gave up any of the character building of Thanos with the straight up evil version dialling it back because too many people agreed with the motivations of IW Thanos. We managed to get lasting implications in Endgame though, half the original avengers didnt make it out: Cap retired, Stark and Natasha dead
 

Soodanim

Member
I'm in the IW>EG camp, but I don't think EG is bad. It's still the ultimate result of so many movies and so much build up, bringing us that army of heroes. The first watch was great. Still enjoyable to watch. It's just that IW is the better story and movie.
And then you have this fucking scene


And thanos being manhandled like a bitch by redhead and captain assless (at least he get rid of the second one after a while)
What gets me about this shot/scene isn't that it's all women (I didn't even notice the first time), but that most of them are less than useless so all they did was highlight a group of side characters. Marvel and Wanda are the only ones of note, because even though Pepper should be a palette swapped Iron Man we don't see enough to know or care, she was just thrown in as if she mattered. Maybe that's why I didn't notice, it's a group of mostly forgettable people of little to no consequence.

I liked Scarlet Witch's moment against Thanos, even more so since they justified it by fleshing her out (before they ruined it in Strange 2).
 
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gradient

Resident Cheap Arse
It's better than ROJ. End Game doesn't have Ewoks or Ewok equivalents.

But it does have this



And this






At least RoTJ respected it's main characters and didn't try to completely neuter and undermine them for bad comedy.

And of course Endgame also had to completely undermine everything built up about Thanos being a badass:

Paper Ship:




Whupped and desperate every time he fights a female:








Making him and the infinity stones look completely weak and making a bit of a mockery of the guys who as a trio couldn't hold him at bay.

And of course...




Why on earth the woman who just ripped through the massive battleship like tissue paper would need "help" getting through the grunts is never explained. Instead we just have this staggeringly badly concieved moment where all the girls have gathered for an instagram moment, abandoning everyone else to fight and die on the battlefield so they can run support for someone who clearly doesn't need support.

Endgame was pretty and had a lot of money put into it, but that can't make up for the awful writing and how badly it outright undermines most of the characters that the franchise was built around.
 
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Soodanim

Member
But it does have this



And this






At least RoTJ respected it's main characters and didn't try to completely neuter and undermine them for bad comedy.

And of course Endgame also had to completely undermine everything built up about Thanos being a badass:

Paper Ship:




Whupped and desperate every time he fights a female:








Making him and the infinity stones look completely weak and making a bit of a mockery of the guys who as a trio couldn't hold him at bay.

And of course...




Why on earth the woman who just ripped through the massive battleship like tissue paper would need "help" getting through the grunts is never explained. Instead we just have this staggeringly badly concieved moment where all the girls have gathered for an instagram moment, abandoning everyone else to fight and die on the battlefield so they can run support for someone who clearly doesn't need support.

Endgame was pretty and had a lot of money put into it, but that can't make up for the awful writing and how badly it outright undermines most of the characters that the franchise was built around.
To be fair, both Wanda and Danvers are powered by infinity stones, and when Thanos uses the power stone he punches Danvers out of the movie. Gone, bye bye deus ex machina character.

You're absolutely right about people trying to help Danvers though, it's like children helping their dad in a fight against another grown adult. Cute at best, and definitely not of any real help.
 

gradient

Resident Cheap Arse
To be fair, both Wanda and Danvers are powered by infinity stones, and when Thanos uses the power stone he punches Danvers out of the movie. Gone, bye bye deus ex machina character.

You're absolutely right about people trying to help Danvers though, it's like children helping their dad in a fight against another grown adult. Cute at best, and definitely not of any real help.

But it's such poor writing and badly undermines the threat of both Thanos and the stones. Danvers has the power of one stone but overpowers Thanos who has all 5 connected in the gauntlet... but in order to beat her he has to take one out of the gauntlet and punch her while holding it. What?! How does that make any sense?

Like the Instagram scene it's conceptually toxic, undermining all the work done to build up the threat as well as all of the main (male) cast who were just getting wrecked trying to hold back the threat mere moments ago.
 

sol_bad

Member
Infinity war is a lot better. Endgame gave up any of the character building of Thanos with the straight up evil version dialling it back because too many people agreed with the motivations of IW Thanos. We managed to get lasting implications in Endgame though, half the original avengers didnt make it out: Cap retired, Stark and Natasha dead

You think they dialed back Thanos because of reactions to Infinity War?

I hope you realise both Infinity War and Endgame were shot together at the same time.

Black Panther started filming in January 2017.
Infinity War started filming in January 2017.
Endgame started filming in August 2017.
Ant-Man and the Wasp started filming in August 2017.
Captain Marvel started filming in January 2018.

*EDIT*
People have issues with Carol smashing through a ship but have no issues with Thor smashing through ships in Infinity War?
Why am I not surprised.

*EDIT 2*
But it's such poor writing and badly undermines the threat of both Thanos and the stones. Danvers has the power of one stone but overpowers Thanos who has all 5 connected in the gauntlet... but in order to beat her he has to take one out of the gauntlet and punch her while holding it. What?! How does that make any sense?

But you're OK with Steve going toe to toe with Thanos even though Thanos would be able to kill him with a single flick?

As for the scene you are complaining about, Infinity War makes it very clear to audiences that Thanos either needs to clench his fist or click his fingers to make the gauntlet work work. Carol is holding his hand not allowing him to do either. Hence the reason Thanos grabs the power stone from the gauntlet and smashes the fuck out of her.
 
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I thought it was pretty bad. Only saw it the one time in theater and was bored for almost all of it. The last good Marvel movie was Civil War.

Infinity War has some great battle scenes, but can't hold my interest throughout. Has a lot of actively bad scenes as well, and it's pretty difficult for me to watch Hulk just be a punchline during the biggest battle in the whole series. And Starlord acting like a completely irrational idiot just takes me out of the whole movie.
 

Doom85

Member
And Starlord acting like a completely irrational idiot just takes me out of the whole movie.

(to be clear, this isn’t dumping all of this on you, the Strange part is aimed at others who don’t seem to understand character flaws)

Ego: ”But it broke my heart to put that tumor in her.”
Peter: “…..what?!”
Ego: “Now I know that sounds bad-“
(cue Peter shooting the shit out of him)

Peter didn’t hesitate to shoot the man he was looking up to at his father the moment he heard him say he killed his mother, so do you really expect him not to begin attacking a man he has zero emotional connection to after he admits to killing Gamora? It was a brilliant way to twist a previous awesome moment.

And like come on, guys. You know, we can’t criticize someone like Carol of being “flawless” when the supposed “flawed” heroes are then criticized for succumbing to said flaws. It’s the same shit with Strange in No Way Home. Yes, of course he’d hop into starting a spell without thinking it through. He fucked with the Time Stone in Dr. Strange 1 despite Wong and Mordo’s warnings. In Infinity War, he thought to use the Time Stone was better than Tony’s suggestion of getting rid of it as New York began to be attacked, and obviously Tony’s idea was better as destroying it would guarantee Thanos couldn’t win (in fact, Thanos having the Time Stone allowed him to undo the destruction of the Soul Stone). And before people bring it up, Strange looking into all the outcomes was on Titan with Thanos soon on his way. So presumably Strange did not have time to destroy it before Thanos arrived as opposed to on Earth where he could have teleported somewhere to have enough time, or on the ship after he, Tony, and Peter took control of it.

And Dr. Strange 2 continues this. Christine even says Strange “has to be the one holding the knife”. He only let someone else do the surgery in the last act of Strange 1 because he was physically incapable of doing so himself, but with magic he has never learned restraint. I assume this will be his character arc of Strange 3, learning this important lesson.

But these flaws are what make the heroes “flawed”. So if the characters can’t even be themselves, then I’m just baffled as to what some people want them to be. They can’t be “perfect”, yet when they make mistakes that are in character it’s still an issue with some folks.

Confused Ryan Gosling GIF
 
Peter didn’t hesitate to shoot the man he was looking up to at his father the moment he heard him say he killed his mother, so do you really expect him not to begin attacking a man he has zero emotional connection to after he admits to killing Gamora? It was a brilliant way to twist a previous awesome moment.
Yes, it was beyond stupid. They had to all plan it out even have a chance at slightly hurting the immortal universe ending god they were fighting. They planned it so they would all attack at once, stun his mind and get the magic gauntlet off that makes him immortal.

But no, don't take off the glove. Pistol whip him. That'll do it.
 

Ulysses 31

Member
I thought it was pretty bad. Only saw it the one time in theater and was bored for almost all of it. The last good Marvel movie was Civil War.

Infinity War has some great battle scenes, but can't hold my interest throughout. Has a lot of actively bad scenes as well, and it's pretty difficult for me to watch Hulk just be a punchline during the biggest battle in the whole series. And Starlord acting like a completely irrational idiot just takes me out of the whole movie.
Vision being nerfed hardcore stung too.
 

Doom85

Member
Yes, it was beyond stupid. They had to all plan it out even have a chance at slightly hurting the immortal universe ending god they were fighting. They planned it so they would all attack at once, stun his mind and get the magic gauntlet off that makes him immortal.

But no, don't take off the glove. Pistol whip him. That'll do it.

Yes, well, people are known to act completely rationally upon finding out someone they’ve loved for years is now dead…..

Come On Reaction GIF by NBA


Fuck man, BATMAN begins beating the shit out of Joker when he reveals he has Rachel captured in The Dark Knight despite it being obvious Joker doesn’t give a shit about getting hurt and this is not how he’ll reveal any info. If Batman of all people can’t prevent getting emotional in a critical moment, you honestly think Star Lord can especially given prior events setting his behavior up?
 

Kev Kev

Gold Member
Not by me. I thought Endgame was incredible, and the biggest, most epic “tie everything together” ending of all time. The entire MCU has been nothing short of remarkable, and in a lot of ways it brings together all the decades of advancements in movie making and story telling via cinema, and perfectly exemplifies all of it in one masterpiece of a story arc (phase 1-3).

It’s really exciting to see phase 4 starting off so strong and I can’t wait to see what the rest of phase 4-6 has in store for us.
 

Ulysses 31

Member
Yes, well, people are known to act completely rationally upon finding out someone they’ve loved for years is now dead…..

Come On Reaction GIF by NBA


Fuck man, BATMAN begins beating the shit out of Joker when he reveals he has Rachel captured in The Dark Knight despite it being obvious Joker doesn’t give a shit about getting hurt and this is not how he’ll reveal any info. If Batman of all people can’t prevent getting emotional in a critical moment, you honestly think Star Lord can especially given prior events setting his behavior up?
So we can't have heroes not losing sight of the very stakes because even Batman loses his cool sometimes?

The loss of a loved one can deeply affect you, but when you do things that endanger many billions of people's lives as a result, that's just idiotic no matter how you cut it. And having dumb things drive the plot isn't good story telling IMO.

Luckily Star-Lord got blipped too since he should've been chewed out hardcore after that.
It’s really exciting to see phase 4 starting off so strong and I can’t wait to see what the rest of phase 4-6 has in store for us.
Black Widow wasn't a strong start... 👀
 
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Yes, well, people are known to act completely rationally upon finding out someone they’ve loved for years is now dead…..

Come On Reaction GIF by NBA


Fuck man, BATMAN begins beating the shit out of Joker when he reveals he has Rachel captured in The Dark Knight despite it being obvious Joker doesn’t give a shit about getting hurt and this is not how he’ll reveal any info. If Batman of all people can’t prevent getting emotional in a critical moment, you honestly think Star Lord can especially given prior events setting his behavior up?
If you like it, it's okay with me. I just genuinely was shocked how stupid that part was. It's not like he even grabbed him in a rage and shot him repeatedly in the mouth or the eye. He just pistol whipped him. Like obviously that is going to do nothing to Mr. Invincible God.
 

Trunx81

Member
You will never again get the reaction that happened throughout the world when Infinity War ended. In my cinema, it was the quietest moment I’ve ever experienced. Children and adults started to sob, cry and then the “Thanos will return” appeared. It was an experience of a lifetime.

Endgame was the relief. After one year of waiting (and only Ant-Man 2 in between), everyone rushed into the cinemas to get over with the trauma IW left. It was the first time I took my son to a midnight premier, as we didn’t want to get spoiled. The trick of reliving the set pieces of the last 10 years of marvel movies through time travel was fan service, yes. But after the highs of IW, it would have been difficult for ANY movie to step into these shoes.
Still the film had some amazing moments. “Love you 3000”, “I knew it!” and “Avengers … assemble” will always be a part of cinema history.

Tl;dr: Every possible movie after IW would have to be considered worse than the scar this film left behind.
 

WoJ

Member
When I saw end game in theater I was like the only person I knew who left disappointed. It's nice to see others coming around to the fact it is disappointing.

It's not bad per sae, but I don't think it is a good follow up to IW. Too much comedy. And I'll never get over what they did to Hulk. He deserved his moment against Thanos after the way IW started. It also never made sense to me how Thanos was so powerful in IW without the stones.

Its fine, and I actually have enjoyed it more in subsequent watches. But it's a weak ending to infinity saga in my opinion.
 
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