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[HighPoly]

Hello guys, I know we have SSD machines, and so many teraflops, but taking a simple perspective, refering to graphics, we must agree the jump from PS4XONE was lower than PS360 to PS4XONE.

But, what's the reason this is happening, if we have at least 5.5x more power in GPU consoles, than the last gen?? And remember! PS5 is more than two times the PS4 PRO power.

The crossgen games are taking so long, and this is the reason?? Or we've paying attention to irrelevant elements/assets, like Ray Tracing, and High Resolutions??

What happened with all those tech demos from UE5?? When will you see something like Matrix Tech Demo as a real game, for example??

 

[delfrickintree]

Diminishing Returns has always been a technological factor. Add in the economic factor of a struggling industry, and we have less to look forward to.

 

[HL3.exe]

Yes, but it's not necessarily a bad thing. Instead of fidelity, I hope devs and investors will invest more into physics, ai, simulated ecosystems, reactive storytelling, etc. Instead of mOrE BeTteR GrApHiX PLz!!!1

Also, budgets have made AAA unsustainable to innovative. Risky ideas can easily lead to bankruptcy in the span of one flop. So publishers are generally keeping it safe and focusing on tropes and familiar styles to keep the investments safe.

 

[BrutalTruth_]

Wish games had better physics, not many have been able to topple half-life 2 from 2004.

Even GTA IV felt next gen because of the physics, which even modern games have failed to replicate.

 

[GHG]

Yes, but it's not necessarily a bad thing. Instead of fidelity, I hope devs and investors will invest more into physics, ai, simulated ecosystems, reactive storytelling, etc. Instead of mOrE BeTteR GrApHiX PLz!!!1

But that's not what's happening? Not even a little bit.

Instead they are now taking the excuse to even stagnate on the graphics side of things.

So now it's stagnation (or even worsening in some cases) in all aspects.

 

[cash_longfellow]

Minimal load screen time and 60fps were my most wanted features, so it’s a huge jump to me at least.

 

[winjer]

Moore's Law is slowing down. It's increasingly difficult to make smaller process nodes.
And this means slower advancements and higher prices.

Also, there is the problem of diminishing returns. For example, doubling the polygon count on a PS1 era game would make a huge diference.
Doubling the polygon count on a PS5 era game, makes a small diference, that people will only notice with a 400% zoom.

Still, the PS5/Series GPU was a good jump rom the PS4/Xbox One GPU, both in speed and features.
And the CPU was a gigantic jump, over the Jaguar.

 

[CoreyFlawless]

It was worth it for the load times. I can’t go back.

 

[SlimySnake]

But that's not what's happening? Not even a little bit.

Instead they are now taking the excuse to even stagnate on the graphics side of things.

So now it's stagnation (or even worsening in some cases) in all aspects.

Yeah, i respect zelda which has an awful image quality because at least its doing something with its physics systems. wtf is spiderman, tlou1, dead space and star wars doing thats physics based?

 

[Kusarigama]

When I saw Tekken 8 after Tekken 7, I got wowed in same way when I saw Tekken 4 after Tekken 3. That's not to say that Tekken 7 looked bad in itself. When it came out, I was seriously impressed by it. But Tekken 8 came around and now Tekken 7 looks bad. Not to forget to mention the load time which seemed bad during T7, feel even more abominable after T8. So there you go.

It's not just Tekken though, same thing for God Of War and Horizon Zero Dawn. Those two were very beautiful games but after playing Ragnarok and Forbidden West, both earlier games look bad.

 

[AJUMP23]

The best thing we have gotten has been faster load times.

 

[Mr.Phoenix]

Hello guys, I know we have SSD machines, and so many teraflops, but taking a simple perspective, refering to graphics, we must agree the jump from PS4XONE was lower than PS360 to PS4XONE.

But, what's the reason this is happening, if we have at least 5.5x more power in GPU consoles, than the last gen?? And remember! PS5 is more than two times the PS4 PRO power.

The crossgen games are taking so long, and this is the reason?? Or we've paying attention to irrelevant elements/assets, like Ray Tracing, and High Resolutions??

What happened with all those tech demos from UE5?? When will you see something like Matrix Tech Demo as a real game, for example??

Ok.. another diminishing returns thread.

It's real. What it means is that once we reach a certain level of fidelity, we have already reached that mind you, better graphic become harder and harder to stand out or requires more and more horsepower to achieve. Basically, going from 1.8TF of GPU performance to 10.2TF... is not going to give you over a 5x jump in IQ.

On another note, can't remember who said it when the first UE5 demo was shown running n the PS5. But he said something along the lines of `good luck maintaining that level of fidelity in a game`.

That's not to say that the PS5/XSX arent already capable of running games at that UE5 promise, hell, we have the matrix demo that is actual working physical proof that it's possible. The problem is the time it would take to make a full-length game at that level of fidelity.

 

[Romulus]

Pretty bad when load times are the most impressive upgrade lol. We've stooped.

 

[64bitmodels]

...... No????????

That would be from 7th to 8th and even then 8th gen games look substantially better than 7th

it's just crossgen

 

[TGO]

Most games releasing have what? 120fps/60fps/40fps which uses triple or double the rendering power while also pushing NextGen feature sets.
People demand this and then ask why they don't see a generational leap in graphics.
If the game is shipping with a Performance Mode (60fps/120fps) its gonna effect the Quality Mode too as that base need to be able to reach 60fps minimum without too much sacrifices made.
The difference is there in some games.

 

[Captain Toad]

Yes. Before that, it was going from PS3 to PS4. Before that, it was going from PS2 to PS3. The next one will be smaller.

Diminishing returns is an actual thing.

 

[delfrickintree]

Sign me up for Team Anti-Load Times. As well as smaller physical PS5. It's the simple things in life. Graphics are for the unimaginative types.

 

[bitbydeath]

Devs are wasting power on 60FPS.
Granted these are mostly all cross-gen games too, hopefully that will change in future.

 

[Billbofet]

Yes. I feel like my glorious PS5 is just the PS4 pro I never picked up years ago.
Loading times have really been the only big deal to me so far.
Sure there are standout games like Ratchet, H:FW, Demon's Souls, Forza 5, and the controllers are nicer.......

 

[HighPoly]

Yes, but it's not necessarily a bad thing. Instead of fidelity, I hope devs and investors will invest more into physics, ai, simulated ecosystems, reactive storytelling, etc. Instead of mOrE BeTteR GrApHiX PLz!!!1

Also, budgets have made AAA unsustainable to innovative. Risky ideas can easily lead to bankruptcy in the span of one flop. So publishers are generally keeping it safe and focusing on tropes and familiar styles to keep the investments safe.

My fear is that Developers are not increasing better graphicas and more physics... They are not doing anything

 

[Markio128]

I think we’ll only be able to truly gauge the differences properly when we compare the twilight games from last gen to the twilight games from this gen. Demon’s Souls was a pretty decent intro to this gen though, as was Flight Sim, as far as visuals go.

 

[64bitmodels]

Yes. Before that, it was going from PS3 to PS4.

PS4 to PS5 was substantially bigger than PS3 to PS4.
PS3 to PS4, almost nothing was improved on besides GPU and ram, and it's the one gen where we took a step BACK with the Jaguar AMD APU being abysmal trash in comparison to Cell so much so that we had a Pro revision to mitigate that disaster.

 

[HighPoly]

Ok.. another diminishing returns thread.

It's real. What it means is that once we reach a certain level of fidelity, we have already reached that mind you, better graphic become harder and harder to stand out or requires more and more horsepower to achieve. Basically, going from 1.8TF of GPU performance to 10.2TF... is not going to give you over a 5x jump in IQ.

On another note, can't remember who said it when the first UE5 demo was shown running n the PS5. But he said something along the lines of `good luck maintaining that level of fidelity in a game`.

That's not to say that the PS5/XSX arent already capable of running games at that UE5 promise, hell, we have the matrix demo that is actual working physical proof that it's possible. The problem is the time it would take to make a full-length game at that level of fidelity.

Sure, sounds totally logic!
I don't know, but I hope to see a true next gen jump from Sucker Punch, Santa Monica and Naughty Dog.
Cause all those games have been made for a loooooooong time, from them.

 

[HL3.exe]

My fear is that Developers are not increasing better graphicas and more physics... They are not doing anything

Think you're underestimating how hard it is to develop a game, let alone innovative on that level with such risky budgets. It's usually not the dev's at fault or lack of skill. It's mostly higher ups not wanting to risk investing in 'unproven' designs and tech (which in some cases is even understandable).

I mean, look at TOTK as an example of a developer/publisher that's willing to invest in crazy simulationist design, and could be argued being more impressive that most PS5/XBOX titles, despite running on incredibly inferior hardware.

 

[Robb]

It definitely feels like it, but I’m not sure it should be. Although I’m no hardware expert.

But there’s also a lot going on. An entire pandemic happened, large cross-gen focus, Series S and Switch being weaker than the rest but still getting ports of a lot of games, devs developing for a ton of different SKU’s etc.

 

[SlimySnake]

Moore's Law is slowing down. It's increasingly difficult to make smaller process nodes.
And this means slower advancements and higher prices.

Also, there is the problem of diminishing returns. For example, doubling the polygon count on a PS1 era game would make a huge diference.
Doubling the polygon count on a PS% era game, makes a small diference, that people will only notice with a 400% zoom.

Still, the PS5/Series GPU was a good jump rom the PS4/Xbox One GPU, both in speed and features.
And the CPU was a gigantic jump, over the Jaguar.

Dimishing returns wont be a thing until we hit photorealism and we are simply not there yet. Matrix does come close but we are still lacking the full scale destruction, massive 1000-2000 NPC fights like we see in avengers, crazy fully simulated war scenes etc. there is lots more left before we get to diminishing returns.

This was done on UE4. By one person. On a 3.5 tflops GTX 970 running at 35-60 fps at 1080p. Find me a game that looks this good and has this level of physics and simulations.



This rebirth demo runs on UE4 and they demoed it running on a 1080 Ti (PS5/xsx equivalent with no ray tracing support) at 1080p 60 fps.



These are all four year old demos.

This Australia demo was made by one guy. You can download and play around with it on any GPU.



It's obvious that devs are still making last gen games and have no desire to upgrade the graphics.

 

[winjer]

Dimishing returns wont be a thing until we hit photorealism and we are simply not there yet. Matrix does come close but we are still lacking the full scale destruction, massive 1000-2000 NPC fights like we see in avengers, crazy fully simulated war scenes etc. there is lots more left before we get to diminishing returns.

This was done on UE4. By one person. On a 3.5 tflops GTX 970 running at 35-60 fps at 1080p. Find me a game that looks this good and has this level of physics and simulations.



This rebirth demo runs on UE4 and they demoed it running on a 1080 Ti (PS5/xsx equivalent with no ray tracing support) at 1080p 60 fps.



These are all four year old demos.

This Australia demo was made by one guy. You can download and play around with it on any GPU.



It's obvious that devs are still making last gen games and have no desire to upgrade the graphics.

Those demos are cool to show off only some physics effects or to show off Quixel and photogrammetry.
That is very nice for a tech demo, but making a game is more complicated.
And of course, we also have games using photogrammetry.
But move light sources, and it all falls apart. And it's necessary to recalculate the pre-baked light.

 

[Draxon Gamer]

The wikipedia version of 2nd to third would be the lowest jump because it was practically the same during the veryyy short time the site gives before 4th gen starts.

Otherwise if we use the historical linage of generations than yeah the current gen so far would be the least, but we also haven't really seen next gen only games yet in mass taking advantage of all the new shoe shining yet. I say we need another year or two before we can really say. It took the Xbox One gen just as long to really showcase a big difference before the pro models.

 

[SlimySnake]

Those demos are cool to show off only some physics effects or to show off Quixel and photogrammetry.
That is very nice for a tech demo, but making a game is more complicated.
And of course, we also have games using photogrammetry.
But move light sources, and it all falls apart. And it's necessary to recalculate the pre-baked light.

Right, but that doesnt mean we have some invisible wall. There is always room to improve.

 

[winjer]

Right, but that doesnt mean we have some invisible wall. There is always room to improve.

The concept of diminishing returns is not some wall will break into. It's just the concept that adding more detail has less return into the quality of an image, with each added step.

 

[ShadyAcshuns]

Graphics whores are in for a harsh reality.

 

[NightmareFarm]

There literally isn't even a jump. It's just 8th gen at 60fps.

 

[Dr. Wilkinson]

Yes, and the reason why is because there have barely been any games released that were made from scratch for these new systems, and the other main reason is everybody is demanding native 4K and 60 FPS, and so the graphical fidelity can only be so high under those conditions.

 

[NightmareFarm]

PS4 to PS5 was substantially bigger than PS3 to PS4.
PS3 to PS4, almost nothing was improved on besides GPU and ram, and it's the one gen where we took a step BACK with the Jaguar AMD APU being abysmal trash in comparison to Cell so much so that we had a Pro revision to mitigate that disaster.

PS3 to PS4 was at least SOMEWHAT of a leap graphically even if it isn't as much as previous gens.

PS4 to PS5 leap is just 4K 60fps on top of 8th gen graphics.

 

[arkhamguy123]

This diminishing returns narrative is laughable to me. We’re being fooled my brothers and sisters. Cross Gen and lazy developers coupled with the rock bottom almost subterranean standards of the causals and apparently even some of the enthusiast are what’s holding us back not tech plateauing.

I could go on YouTube right now and in 5 seconds find some unreal engine demo a couple people or even just one 20 something year old geek threw together in his free time that mops the floor with $100+ million dollar 400-1000 team studios. We’re nowhere close to the matrix demo in a retail game. Nowhere close to the initial UE5 demo from 3 years ago with the elf lady (running real time 1440p/30fps on ps5 I might add).

It’s literally just “man this is hard and expensive to do this for a whole game… let’s see do the causals care? *pokemon/COD/FIFA/Fortnite topping sales charts* hmmm nope… what about the hardcore market? *clowns on Twitter defending Spider-Man 2/TLOUP1/GOW:R* hmmmmm nope. Okay then!”

Anyone here seen the Mario movie? Avatar? Any Pixar movie from the last 10 years? Any blockbuster of the last 15 years? Are we even close to being close to that? Not really no. Go watch the Batman Arkham blur studios announcement trailers or a couple of episodes of love death robots on Netflix then switch to even demon souls and horizon 2. We are not in diminishing returns. Not even close.

 

[Danjin44]

How many threads do we need about "this generation graphics disappointing".

 

[March Climber]

Devs are wasting power on 60FPS.

 

[TransTrender]

Huge jump for consoles
Minimal loading, great visuals, and stable frame rates.
Maybe Xbox is different but the PS5 is rocking it.

 

[Danjin44]

Devs are wasting power on 60FPS.

How fucking dare they!?

 

[Bonfires Down]

Developers had to make visual sacrifices to accommodate 60 fps.

And, depending on the game, I agree that 60 fps is essential.

 

[Little Chicken]

Wish games had better physics, not many have been able to topple half-life 2 from 2004.

Even GTA IV felt next gen because of the physics, which even modern games have failed to replicate.

I agree, FarCry 2 had amazing physics systems as well.

But it's entirely dependent on the game ofc, Sega introduced real-world physics to Sonic 2006 and well...

 

[bitbydeath]

How fucking dare day!?

Just saying, Matrix Tech Demo was 30FPS, you won’t get those graphics at 60FPS.

 

[Danjin44]

Just saying, Matrix Tech Demo was 30FPS, you won’t get those graphics at 60FPS.

 

[winjer]

Just saying, Matrix Tech Demo was 30FPS, you won’t get those graphics at 60FPS.

But we get improved gameplay and smoothness.
That is well worth losing some graphical prowess.

 

[bitbydeath]

But we get improved gameplay and smoothness.
That is well worth losing some graphical prowess.

I’d rather improved gameplay and graphics.
30FPS is fine, nobody complained about it in the Matrix demo.

 

[sendit]

If you want to see a true generational jump. Get a 4090. Don’t expect these 500 dollar boxes to push the boundaries of graphics.

 

[The Cockatrice]

Yes and no. Developers have learned and mastered through the years how to fake realistic lighting in games. Raytracing and pathing and whatever else comes can look insanely great and from a technical point of view it's quite the jump in visuals. Sadly developers are still learning how to use it and optimize so it'll take some time. Cyberpunk is in the right direction alongside Metro Exodus.

 

[March Climber]

Just saying, Matrix Tech Demo was 30FPS, you won’t get those graphics at 60FPS.

Then we go a full gen with slightly lower graphics for 60fps modes, and this will be the one generation where we put graphics on standby so that 60fps becomes a locked-in standard going forward. We're already 1/3 of the way done with this generation anyway.

What's another 6 years.

 

[bitbydeath]

And don’t forget 30FPS haters, Zelda TOTK is likely going to be GOTY and runs at 30FPS.

 

[Danjin44]

30FPS is fine, nobody complained about it in the Matrix demo.

I love how when PS5 was coming out people were crying about how 60 FPS should be standard and 30 FPS hurts their eyes, but now people are so desperate for their eye candy, 30FPS is now considered "fine".