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[NDoerrFans]

Just gonna chime in and say I support journalists--regardless where they do their journaling--who don't bend to the will of developers (big or small) demanding/expecting X or Y reactions/reviews from press. That's just...propaganda, in a way.

It's a different atmosphere nowadays than back when the Kane & Lynch 2 thing happened, I feel.

 

[DeepEnigma]

I do find it pretty ironic that the two publishers that put out arguably the glitchiest/buggiest popular/hype AAA games, are the ones blacklisting.

That is petty and tacky. They need to focus their concerns more on their Q&A for their customers, rather than their imaginary NDA with the press.

 

[Stuart444]

But... if you were blacklisted years ago... why write the article now or is Kotaku pushing their own "really late" meme?

It is LITERALLY right there in the article.

 

[DrROBschiz]

So how do you expect journalists to get their news otherwise? Because then it means you can't post any news about a company unless it is spoon-fed to you. They are a business that is providing news to readers. To stay competitive they need to find more news and that is part of how they do it. Penalizing them for that as publishers is unwarranted and they are promoting any outlet that does do what they tell them to do.

Meanwhile the PR they get send is completely independent of that. It does not have any relationship to that news and it doesn't effect future coverage on their products.



No matter whether it is popular or not, discouraging investigative journalism sounds like a very bad idea to me.



Let's just say there is a case of "The pot calling the kettle black."

Its just a blacklist

doesnt stop investigative journalists in other fields

 

[Nostremitus]

The confusion of free press with 'unfettered access because I want it' attitude on display in this thread is far more concerning. Why would a business (big or small) deal with an entity if it perceives that entity had injured it previously?

Kotaku can and will report what it pleases, when it pleases. No one is stopping this. They are free. The expectation of a relationship where 'insert big business' answer's Kotaku's questions or responds to them in any manner is laughable. If their lack of a response, or their position offends you don't buy their games.

Publisher/Developer can choose to have whatever relationship with whomever it pleases, including 'no relationship', and they are under no commitment to provide otherwise.

This has absolutely nothing to do with journalistic integrity, stop pretending it does. Publisher/Developer aren't in business to provide you with honest, hard-hitting, exposés on the inner workings of the game industry.

They can have whatever relationship they want, and the press have a right to report on it, and people have a right to call them out for taking their ball and going home. It is journalistic integrity, though. If s journalist gets info that their readership would want to know, but they withhold it because they choose to act as part of a publisher's marketing department, then they've traded integrity for special treatment and free handouts.

Just because "that's the way this industry works" doesn't make it OK. The industry working that way is a problem. Its what feeds the perpetual hype machine that constantly leads to consumer disappointment.

 

[Prophet Steve]

But... if you were blacklisted years ago... why write the article now or is Kotaku pushing their own "really late" meme?

Partly because there are more questions from readers about why there are no early reviews.

Its just a blacklist

doesnt stop investigative journalists in other fields

What have I just been saying?

But giving benefits to all the outlets that don't do investigative journalism you increase the barrier of entrance for outlets to do investigative journalism as the competition is harder to compete with.

As a starting outlet I can imagine it would be very difficult to do investigative journalism since there is a big demand for reviews too. If you get blacklisted, you can probably say goodbye.

 

[Spring-Loaded]

We have the industry we deserve when you get responses like this.

Yup.

Christ, you don't even have to like Kotaku to get why this blacklisting thing is a problem, but people are still licking these companies' boots for a site reporting actual news of the industry.

 

[Sinatar]

So the end result of this is that Kotaku has to purchase these games to review them and won't be able to do previews (which are always worthless PR fluff anyways).

I'm not seeing the downside.

 

[Falchion]

Game publishers try to have such a tight grip on the publicity for their products. I like when sites rock their boats and I hope more outlets refuse to play ball on some of the more ridiculous demands like putting an embargo on discussing the review embargo.

 

[To Far Away Times]

Don't bite the hand that feeds you.

Though the relationship between publishers and games "journalists" has litte to do with journalism.

 

[DrROBschiz]

So the end result of this is that Kotaku has to purchase these games to review them and won't be able to do previews (which are always worthless PR fluff anyways).

I'm not seeing the downside.

Enthusiasts like to argue on principle

Good for this topic. Probably not a big news story otherwise

 

[GatticusFinch]

I feel like this doesn't address what I was saying. Sure, the stakes are low - it's just video games. But some people care about this stuff! And the question is, basically, whether they want video games journalism to be just an extension of publishers' marketing departments or whether they want it to be independent. People who care about this stuff should be annoyed at efforts by publishers to control coverage like this. The whole point is that you don't have to take this fatalistic "that's just the nature of the beast" position here - consumers have some ability to determine how publishers respond.

I thought we were talking about the angle of "what can Kotaku do about it?" The answer to that question is nothing. They either stop publishing the leaks and get back in their good graces, or they continue going against the publisher's wishes and do not get access.

The problem is your point of do we want game journalism to be "just an extension of publisher's marketing departments." My point was that Kotaku has virtually no choice in the matter. They will always be an extension of the marketing department to a certain extent because they do not have the tools to go against their wishes like a government reporter would because of sunshine laws, FOIA, freedom of the press, etc. If Kotaku wants first-run news and the publishers control that news, they have to play along or hope they can get enough leaks to make due.

Your point, as I understand it, is "why can't the publisher just play along AND let Kotaku run pieces the publisher doesn't want?" You've answered your own question though--consumers have that power to force the publisher to change, but they just do not care. We all knew Fallout 4 would be a bug ridden shitshow before it was released, and it sold a zillion copies. Do you think those same people are going to crack back against Bethesda by not buying Fallout 4 just because Kotaku isn't getting the same insider access that IGN or someone is getting? Hell no, they will just go get that insider access elsewhere and still buy the product. That's the only power the consumer has in any of this and we all know they will never exercise it (see, eg., season pass DLC, microtransactions, pay-to-play multiplayer, on-disc DLC, etc.).

Kotaku is just fucked here because the consumer can't be bothered to give a shit, and the publishers know that full well.

 

[JoseLopez]

So how do you expect journalists to get their news otherwise? Because then it means you can't post any news about a company unless it is spoon-fed to you. They are a business that is providing news to readers. To stay competitive they need to find more news and that is part of how they do it. Penalizing them for that as publishers is unwarranted and they are promoting any outlet that does do what they tell them to do.

Meanwhile the PR they get send is completely independent of that. It does not have any relationship to that news and it doesn't effect future coverage on their products.



No matter whether it is popular or not, discouraging investigative journalism sounds like a very bad idea to me.



Let's just say there is a case of "The pot calling the kettle black."

Yeah okay, so kotaku gets a free pass on shitty articles since I'm on my phone. Maybe next time before I post I'll take a college course and proof read my post. Your post legitimately has made me angry like what stake do you hold on kotaku that you love them so much.

 

[Scientist Supreme!]

This thread is pleasant surprise. I didn't expect most people to agree with me.
Predictively both "sides" of the issue have go to extremes. Either some guy/girl who hates kotaku and haven't read the article. While people who think kotaku are "true journalists" calling out people who don't have a problem with this are, " sticking up for corporations"

 

[WanderingWind]

Its just a blacklist

doesnt stop investigative journalists in other fields

Largely because other fields wouldn't have 800 posts defending corporate entities stifling the press.

 

[DrROBschiz]

Largely because other fields wouldn't have 800 posts defending corporate entities stifling the press.

You mean being realistic?

 

[Shredderi]

Don't bite the hand that feeds you.

Though the relationship between publishers and games "journalists" has litte to do with journalism.

Publishers aren't supposed to be the hand that feeds journalists. That's way too incestuous.

 

[Bold One]

Jason Schrier(sp) has grown on me

Spoiler

no one that likes Destiny can be a bad person

despite my feelings about Kotaku


I can see why Ubi did it to be fair,


that was a dick move leaking AC Syndicate (VICTORY) as it was known at the time. Especially right after the catastrophe that was Unity's launch

I am not saying the black-listings are justified per se, just that some of it will be unavoidable, especially when you start to hurt a company's bottom line

 

[AyaisMUsikWhore]

Yeah okay, so kotaku gets a free pass on shitty articles since I'm on my phone. Maybe next time before I post I'll take a college course and proof read my post. Your post legitimately has made me angry like what stake do you hold on kotaku that you love them so much.

Everyone writes shitty articles. This is not exclusive to Kotaku. There's a ton of non news day everywhere so no one is getting a free pass. But when Kotaku is actually discussing a subject, the articles are always good.

Why are you so angry in the first place that some people can separate the difference between taking seriously what is to be taken seriously and waiving off the crap that is exactly what it is, crap?

 

[Gentleman Jack]

Didn't kotaku like blackmail a dev over a scoop and didn't a dude from kotaku get salty over someone doing what they got trouble from.

Did you hear that from a guy who knows about it from another dude who did a dealie over there with them folks? I mean, things are happening.

 

[Prophet Steve]

Yeah okay, so kotaku gets a free pass on shitty articles since I'm on my phone. Maybe next time before I post I'll take a college course and proof read my post. Your post legitimately has made me angry like what stake do you hold on kotaku that you love them so much.

I'd say I don't love them so much considering I don't really visit their website and only get directed towards them by NeoGAF threads.

Somehow you being on your phone is an excuse to shit on an article and an outlet.

 

[jschreier]

I hope all of you are reading the entire article or at the very least this post before you comment: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=186078299&postcount=695

 

[WanderingWind]

You mean being realistic?

Nope.

 

[Gotchaye]

Your point, as I understand it, is "why can't the publisher just play along AND let Kotaku run pieces the publisher doesn't want?" You've answered your own question though--consumers have that power to force the publisher to change, but they just do not care. We all knew Fallout 4 would be a bug ridden shitshow before it was released, and it sold a zillion copies. Do you think those same people are going to crack back against Bethesda by not buying Fallout 4 just because Kotaku isn't getting the same insider access that IGN or someone is getting? Hell no, they will just go get that insider access elsewhere and still buy the product. That's the only power the consumer has in any of this and we all know they will never exercise it (see, eg., season pass DLC, microtransactions, pay-to-play multiplayer, on-disc DLC, etc.).

Kotaku is just fucked here because the consumer can't be bothered to give a shit, and the publishers know that full well.

I mean, I agree that lots of people don't care, in practice, despite saying they want an independent games press. I was posting in a discussion thread where several of these people were also posting in order to maybe point out to some of them how it's their own attitude and willingness to side with publishers here that is mostly responsible for many of what they would point to as problems with video games journalism.

 

[riotous]

I hope all of you are reading the entire article or at the very least this post before you comment: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=186078299&postcount=695

Do you have any examples of stories involving Ubisoft or Bethesda?

 

[jschreier]

Do you have any examples of stories involving Ubisoft or Bethesda?

http://kotaku.com/ubisofts-game-developer-limbo-1644500222
http://kotaku.com/five-years-and-nothing-to-show-how-doom-4-got-off-trac-468097062

 

[JoseLopez]

I'd say I don't love them so much considering I don't really visit their website and only get directed towards them by NeoGAF threads.

Somehow you being on your phone is an excuse to shit on an article and an outlet.

what? I'm excusing my poor grammar but I don't care my criticism was valid so I can mock kotaku as much I want.

Everyone writes shitty articles. This is not exclusive to Kotaku. There's a ton of non news day everywhere so no one is getting a free pass. But when Kotaku is actually discussing a subject, the articles are always good.

Why are you so angry in the first place that some people can separate the difference between taking seriously what is to be taken seriously and waiving off the crap that is exactly what it is, crap?

Look dude I made a snarky comment joking around and this other dude started talking trash that's why I'm angry

 

[MHWilliams]

I mean, I agree that lots of people don't care, in practice, despite saying they want an independent games press. I was posting in a discussion thread where several of these people were also posting in order to maybe point out to some of them how it's their own attitude and willingness to side with publishers here that is mostly responsible for many of what they would point to as problems with video games journalism.

You're like magical fencer, getting right to the root of a smart argument. Good stuff.

 

[Q_A]

So the end result of this is that Kotaku has to purchase these games to review them and won't be able to do previews (which are always worthless PR fluff anyways).

I'm not seeing the downside.

And have literally any email or question they ask ignored. Obviously you people can read so why can't you finish reading a sentence/paragraph? Does the logic and comprehension of the matter get in the way of your snark so you choose to ignore it?

 

[kpaadet]

Ohh no that means Kotaku won't be getting the usual publisher PR fluff emails letting them know how awesome their next game is, the horror. I hope every other outlet will demand to be taken off that mailing list in sympathy.

 

[Spaced33]

Games journalists and sites do not owe anything to game publishers. Obviously leaks are something that game companies hate, but I stand with Kotaku on this one. Bethesda and Ubisoft's reactions to this are childish.

 

[Dangansona]

Let's be clear about a few things. For one, the stories I'm most proud of writing are not stories about leaked Fallout 4 scripts or even the Prey 2 "press sneak fuck" e-mails. The stories I'm most proud of writing are real investigations, the type that reveal information nobody would have learned otherwise, whether it involves horrible working conditions, behind-the-scenes stories of how a game like Destiny turned out the way it did, or an explanation about what a highly-anticipated cancelled game like Titan actually was. You've all seen and hopefully appreciated those stories, so you know where I'm coming from here.

I absolutely appreciated those stories. All of the Kotaku on GAF in recent days has inspired me to visit the site more often instead of just following links. I'm sure you guys have even cut down on the awful fluff jokey buzzfeed-esque articles that gave most Gaffers on here a bad taste in their mouth in the first place, hence why they won't read the original article and just drive-by shit post "good riddance" in this thread.

 

[DICKS AHOY]

If the Bethesda blacklisting is over Prey 2 then I'd agree that's shitty. Really dodgy stuff they pulled on that and I imagine if Kotaku didn't get that first then the screwed over devs working on it would've eventually been asked by a different news outlet just what happened with that project.

Ubisoft I'm imagining is over one of the AC games getting leaked early and while there's been a few times Ubi's at fault for that (didn't one of the game's get leaked by a dev casually telling some rando he met during a flight all about it and they proceeded to post everything they were told on reddit or GAF?), I can more easily see why they'd be put off sending review copies off to a place that regularly reveals a game early.

It's a bit shady to do so either way, though I don't think most people appreciate the incestuous relationship most game websites have to have with publishers if they want to get to press events and review copies in the first place. I wouldn't get too self-congratulatory over getting blacklisted but I dunno, ignoring the dumber blog-style updates at least Kotaku has something to point to if people accuse them of being bought off over something.

 

[riotous]

http://kotaku.com/ubisofts-game-developer-limbo-1644500222
http://kotaku.com/five-years-and-nothing-to-show-how-doom-4-got-off-trac-468097062

Thanks!

edit: I remember that first article; that's how the better consulting agency I've ever worked for does it. Many just let you go the second your project ends. You are supposed to do your best to find work inside the agency during that time, and if you fail you are let go. From the perspective of someone whose been a developer for decades that article was "much ado about nothing from someone who doesn't understand software development." You can find a developer to complain about just about any "practice" and make it sound controversial. No offense, just how it came across to me. One of my coworkers quit by throwing a fit over being asked to clock his hours in every day and describe the tasks he's done. (just an example of the type of whining I come across on a daily basis.)

Another was put into "purgatory" at the large agency we work at because he was't doing enough work; he used the 3 weeks to search for a new job and collected a paycheck during that time. He was quite happy with the situation.

 

[igordennis]

That's cute. Like what was said, nothing of value was lost.

Didn't read their essays of butthurt. Gaf OP was enough

Lol

 

[Podge293]

what the fuck. You are not allowed to criticise the game in professional manner?

You are. Doesn't mean publishers will make it easy for you. If a games publicity is damaged it not only affects the current game sales but future titles aswell. Publishers would be foolish to reward journalists who bad mouth them

 

[sol740]

They can have whatever relationship they want, and the press have a right to report on it, and people have a right to call them out for taking their ball and going home. It is journalistic integrity, though. If s journalist gets info that their readership would want to know, but they withhold it because they choose to act as part of a publisher's marketing department, then they've traded integrity for special treatment and free handouts.

Just because "that's the way this industry works" doesn't make it OK. The industry working that way is a problem. Its what feeds the perpetual hype machine that constantly leads to consumer disappointment.

Withholding information is common in all journalism, not every scoop anyone ever gets is instantly uploaded for mass consumption. Not if the scooper stands to lose more than they gain. This is journalism, not just in games, but in every sphere of the news.

If Kotaku gains clicks, and readership respect, then they have to weigh that against the things they stand to lose. Such as access to 'whatever', certainly not limited to review copies, or preview trips. If we as the consumer find the company's reaction abhorrent then ... DON'T BUY THEIR GAMES.

 

[Cday]

Quiet Kotaku the adults are speaking.

 

[GatticusFinch]

I mean, I agree that lots of people don't care, in practice, despite saying they want an independent games press. I was posting in a discussion thread where several of these people were also posting in order to maybe point out to some of them how it's their own attitude and willingness to side with publishers here that is mostly responsible for many of what they would point to as problems with video games journalism.

We're talking about organizing children, who have no qualms about sending female reporters rape threats or calling in swat teams to people streaming video games, to fight for abstract press freedoms by boycotting AAA video games. Call me defeatist, but there is no way that will happen.

 

[Occam]

Yeah, you can see it a lot in the reactions to this piece, too. Which is fine! Nobody has to read or love Kotaku. If you prefer websites that stick to the script and don't do what we do, that's A-OK.

Thanks to you, Kotaku has regained a lot of respect. I really appreciate the way you work. Thank you!

 

[JoseLopez]

Quiet Kotaku the adults are speaking.

Lol

 

[Real Hero]

Quiet Kotaku the adults are speaking.

err what??

 

[Metzhara]

Amazing! This is exactly why I stopped reading Kotaku.
In addition to believing they were the final word in games (let alone journalism), once Mr. T stepped into the editor position, everything went downhill.

Kotaku used to be great primarly for hearing news first (outside of "the GAF".) However, over the years the quality of writing, the content of the writing, and the topics they write about, simply no longer interested me and made me feel like those who were on board cared less about these things than they did about someone carrying on a discussion about what they liked in their lives (per topics in comments).

Journalism in gaming isn't a thing in my opinion (anymore) but that doesn't mean I don't want to read about games. The last journalistic content I read about games was, oddly enough, "Next Gen" magazine. Unbiased, technical, informative, and the opinions were clearly separated from the fanboy/fangirlism. I didn't get to read EDGE much but I hear it was close. EuroGamer has posted some interesting articles but overall... these are one-offs.

As far as Kotaku getting blacklisted... I don't have an issue with it. Primarily because of the reasons I could see them getting blacklisted. There's no obligation by game companies to work with you. None at all. It's not like these persons are handling materials that are necessary for your life and polluting waters or slaughtering children. Maybe that's myopic of me but blog sites are just another arm of Marketing and if it doesn't work for the content you're producing... don't use it.

Kotaku should look at a method to fill that blank space. Perhaps they'll now talk about sock colors for winter.

 

[Kodaman]

Man, people passively defending this practises is just... sad.

 

[igordennis]

I hope all of you are reading the entire article or at the very least this post before you comment: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=186078299&postcount=695

Unfortunately we both know that hope of yours is useless. The allure of shitposting about kotaku is too strong.

 

[TheSlySoul]

It is fine, will not be buying new games from both of them from now on. I blacklist them!

 

[Mihos]

Honestly, wouldn't talk to them either.

It doesn't stop them from doing what ever investigating journalism they want to do. Mainstream journalist already know not to expect cooperation from a person or company they are about to lambast.. why would they expect anything different in this case?

 

[WanderingWind]

I think one this is abundantly clear. Kotaku needs to split into two separate entities. Kotaku, for all the Pikachu cakes and joke articles, and Kotaku Pro, for more tempered games journalism.

 

[Empyrean Heaven]

We were in a similar situation with one of those publishers for the past year, and it appears we just got a soft blacklisting from another major publisher. Typically what it does is make you double down on digging into them, coming away with a Fuck It attitude and rarely does it have the desired impact from publishers.

It's Nintendo, isn't it?

 

[Scientist Supreme!]

Man, people pasively defending this practices is just... sad.

People have different opinions from your own. For good or ill.