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[Vaelka]

Anyone else feel this?
What I mean is in terms of how serious and gritty games from the West are, not saying that exceptions don't exist but all of them that I can think of are either Indie titles or borderline Indie.
It's like every game takes itself ultra seriously at all times and it negatively effects the gameplay too imo.
Not saying that it always does, I think that TLOU2 for example does achieve what it sets out to do in terms of gritty gameplay and it works, and it still has some creative aspects to it where you can throw yourself to the side and leap from buildings etc.

But where are the games like DMC in the West for example?
Even games like Mortal Kombat tries hard to be '' realistic '' ( bullshit, but they try that with the marketing ) and takes itself way too seriously to the point that it comes across as totally lacking in self-awareness.
Mortal Kombat would be more fun imo and also open it up for more crazy shit outside of fatalities if the games took themselves less seriously and hammed it up a little.

I know that God of War was well-received and I am not going to argue that it should've been anything else, but just in this context it's still another example of a series that was traditionally over the top being '' slowed down ''.
Even if you like it better you'd have to admit that it's a totally different and unrecognizable thing, my point isn't that God of War should go back but moreso why there doesn't seem to be a place anymore for what it used to be.

Tomb Raider is another example too, Lara used to be a larger than life character doing cartwheels and flips shooting akimbo pistols against Dinosaurs etc ( and also more of a focus on tombs... ).
She was a character that you'd love to be friends with, it felt more like you went on an actual adventure with someone that you liked.
Reboot Lara is an emotional wreck that gets hurt all the time ( yet walks it off np ), her wardrobe often makes her rectangular and is very bulky and she's brunette with a ponytail ( not even a braid anymore? ) and a bow number 9519571951 and the game is more of a typical shooter where you're sorta '' grounded '' into the floor.
I mean games like reboot Tomb Raider and TLOU being '' realistic '' is complete dogshit, but that tone of trying to be gritty makes it so that you can't have your character defy gravity for the sake of fun and it makes things feel very repetitive.
Instead of the cartwheels and flipping around you're just running or crouching in place, pointing your gun and shooting rinse and repeat.
There's no flashy feel to the base gameplay at all and it feels rather dull imo.
Again not saying that it can't work, just that it shouldn't be the only thing and it was such a massive move away from what Tomb Raider and Lara was originally.

Outside of Borderlands I guess I genuinely can't think of a single Western game that is more like DMC, original Tomb Raider and God of War, Bayonetta, Nier Automata etc.
I've been feeling like this for a long time and it has really made me bored with the industry in recent years, I just want some variety outside of Japanese games and even the Japanese have started to turn around too with this.
The Japanese still manage to do both at the same time to a large extent tho, there's no excuse why we can't in the West too...
Even a single studio and publisher like Capcom manages both at the same time, like the RE games and DMC or Monster Hunter for example.
And they still make exceptions where they have some fun too in serious games like Ada, if a Western studio made the remake Ada would probably have been in Jeans and a tank top and have lost all of her charm lol.

 

[THEAP99]

Japanese games are also still having a lack of variety. often times low budget janky games that are so gamey and regressive and ig people hype them up just because they're so cool and against the grain somehow? lol. i also agree the west has a lack of variety too though.. but gaming has gotten so big and so commercialized so u won't see many unique games anymore from anyone.

 

[Vaelka]

Japanese games are also still having a lack of variety. often times low budget janky games that are so gamey and regressive and ig people hype them up just because they're so cool and against the grain somehow? lol. i also agree the west has a lack of variety too though.. but gaming has gotten so big and so commercialized so u won't see many unique games anymore from anyone.

I am mainly talking about AAA or AA games, not sure what people would say defines AA tho but still.
Nier Automata wasn't a high budget game I moreso used it as an example for the overall tone and visual design.


I do agree with you tho that Japanese games are probably mostly on one side of the aisle too, but I think that if you look at AAA and AA there's more variety in Japanese games.

 

[Shubh_C63]

Not many people are complaining though, as most are just buying them in hoards.

Take my friends. They play CSGO and Dota/LoL all day long and are only interested in these AAA "cool" looking cinematic games occasionally. I guess call for more diversity in gameplay is very small section of the pie. Most are happy with Assassins Creed and CoD.

 

[Vaelka]

Not many people are complaining though, as most are just buying them in hoards.

Take my friends. They play CSGO and Dota/LoL all day long and are only interested in these AAA "cool" looking cinematic games occasionally. I guess call for more diversity in gameplay is very small section of the pie. Most are happy with Assassins Creed and CoD.

Yeah, I guess that from an enthusiast perspective and someone who grew up playing video games and have played them for as long as I can remember I notice it more maybe.
My friends are like you said too, they just play more as a time waster and aren't as invested in gaming as I am.

They'd also look at a game like Nier Automata, DMC, Bayonetta or a more faithful Tomb Raider reboot as '' weird and dorky '', there's basically no fun allowed outside of typical military shooters or '' grounded '' tones.
I kinda feel like a lot of people take themselves way too seriously when it comes to this.

Edit: Basically, people like this is who high budget games are made for in the West :

 

[daninthemix]

Everything's a cinematic open world with long walk-and-talks, light climbing, obsessive looting, and 'press R2 to squeeze through' sections.

 

[CalmYe]

I think AA or AAA games obviously tend to play safe as they have to recuperate their budgets so giving the consumer what has been proven they will like is the best option for them. Trying new things has high risk and high reward but the prospect of high risk obviously keeps devs away from doing things too 'Alien' I suppose. Play indies maybe, so many of them and a lot of them have been pushing creative boundaries for years now. TLOU 1 has sold more than first 4 entries of DmC series.

 

[unintelligent orange]

When games are expensive to make, misteps are to be avoided. I blame the ballooning cost of video game production and the industry sort of being hacked for the lack of variation in gaming these days. Developers (and more importantly shareholders) are simply afraid to go out on a limb and risk millions for an idea that isnt surefire - Jim Ryan said this himself a few days ago, though it's been the truth for a long while now.

Nowadays the trend has been to overload the senses with ridiculous explosions, 4k grit and flashy graphics, rather than putting together good games with substance. Since the PS3 era the videogame industry has begun to be hacked; developers/business men/shareholders realized they can simply churn out a nice looking pile of crap and still make money off it while skimping on the substance. And dont get me started on microtransactions and all this other bs.

It is easier to follow processes that are gauranteed to make the thing look nicer than to make something that plays as well as it may look. This industry is getting polluted by greedy business men who want a slice of the pie that is all of our wallets. No more so than other industries, but it still sucks.

I always say this, but IMO the PS2 era of gaming was the best in terms of creativity and variation since ive been alive. Lots of interesting games coming out back then, and graphics werent such a focus because what you could do was limited, so developers had no choice but to deliver on substance.

 

[kuncol02]

there's basically no fun allowed outside of typical military shooters or '' grounded '' tones.

That's why games like Sea of Thieves and Grounded exists? And that's only MS in last years. You should also play Valhalla. Some side missions are really really really super weird.

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

Famous Actor Voice.
Cost of content creation.
It stifles whimsy.

 

[synchronicity]

When games are expensive to make, misteps are to be avoided. I blame the ballooning cost of video game production and the industry sort of being hacked for the lack of variation in gaming these days. Developers (and more importantly shareholders) are simply afraid to go out on a limb and risk millions for an idea that isnt surefire - Jim Ryan said this himself a few days ago, though it's been the truth for a long while now.

Nowadays the trend has been to overload the senses with ridiculous explosions, 4k grit and flashy graphics, rather than putting together good games with substance. Since the PS3 era the videogame industry has begun to be hacked; developers/business men/shareholders realized they can simply churn out a nice looking pile of crap and still make money off it while skimping on the substance. And dont get me started on microtransactions and all this other bs.

It is easier to follow processes that are gauranteed to make the thing look nicer than to make something that plays as well as it may look. This industry is getting polluted by greedy business men who want a slice of the pie that is all of our wallets. No more so than other industries, but it still sucks.

I always say this, but IMO the PS2 era of gaming was the best in terms of creativity and variation since ive been alive. Lots of interesting games coming out back then, and graphics werent such a focus because what you could do was limited, so developers had no choice but to deliver on substance.

Art is always eroded by commerce.

Have to look to the hungry creators for real innovation and creativity usually. (indies/small devs) (Not saying nothing is enjoyable in the AAA space, fwiw.)

 

[Vaelka]

That's why games like Sea of Thieves and Grounded exists? And that's only MS in last years. You should also play Valhalla. Some side missions are really really really super weird.

Those games are smaller budget tho and not really what I am talking about, they're more like smaller budget Japanese games like someone else mentioned.
Valhalla definitely fits my description too even if it has some weird aspects maybe.
The repetitive nature of Ubisoft games are a straight up meme at this point.

 

[Guilty_AI]

Those games are smaller budget tho and not really what I am talking about,

Games like Sea of Thieves are anything but smaller budget.

There are some others besides MS titles though, like Baldurs Gate 3 (techinically Larian is "indie", but they claim their team and budget are on AAA level), don't know if Half Life Alyx would pass through your criteria but i don't think that game lacks in self awareness.

 

[LazyParrot]

Development costs for AAA titles are insane these days and they'll only get more expensive this gen. The higher the investment, the less likely publishers and developers are to experiment and innovate.

The solution is simple: look at AA and indie titles and everything in between. There's more variety to be found there than ever.

 

[kuncol02]

Those games are smaller budget tho and not really what I am talking about, they're more like smaller budget Japanese games like someone else mentioned.
Valhalla definitely fits my description too even if it has some weird aspects maybe.
The repetitive nature of Ubisoft games are a straight up meme at this point.

You don't realize one thing. Even biggest japanese games are dwarfed by average AAA game from west in terms of budget. How many people are working on every Assassins Creed or Call of Duty? That are hundreds (in case of Ubisoft sometimes even more than thousand). You can clearly see that japanese games are heavilly limited by budget. Half of DMC4 was literally same levels but backwards and DMC5 is not only heavilly backtracking with two or even three characters going through same level but different path but also half game is in identical levels inside of fucking tree (seriously as good as that game is its level design is atrocious).
Japanese games were always low budget in comparison to western games and for me they always were closer to eurojank than western games (and I love eurojank and japanese games).

 

[ZywyPL]

I fully agree, the landscape of AAA games has change A LOT in the past 20-30 years, it's all mostly nothing but TPP/FPP games nowadays, while other type of games/genres are in retreat, some even considered as dead. But then again, it's all just a business, it's all about the money, and the market itself has verified long time ago that if you want to reach the widest audience and make the most profit, that's the kind of games you have to make. It's the same as with pop music and blockbuster Hollywood movies, they are the most popular ones, they bring the most profit, hence they are the ones that are so heavily invested, because no one will invest 100M into a game that'll reach 100k users at best.

 

[kuncol02]

I fully agree, the landscape of AAA games has change A LOT in the past 20-30 years, it's all mostly nothing but TPP/FPP games nowadays, while other type of games/genres are in retreat, some even considered as dead. But then again, it's all just a business, it's all about the money, and the market itself has verified long time ago that if you want to reach the widest audience and make the most profit, that's the kind of games you have to make. It's the same as with pop music and blockbuster Hollywood movies, they are the most popular ones, they bring the most profit, hence they are the ones that are so heavily invested, because no one will invest 100M into a game that'll reach 100k users at best.

Modern AAA games didn't existed 20 years ago. In 90s you could probably count really big budget games on your fingers (FF games on PSX, MGS, Shenmue, maybe Gran Tourismo). Budgets were order of magnitude or even two smaller then. Halo team was how many people 50? In credits there are 8 programers and 12 artists. AC:Syndicate had probably more animators working on it than was employed in whole Bungie in Halo times.

 

[Ten_Fold]

AAA western games, pretty much play it safe since they cost 50-100m+ to make. I can see this gen having a indie developer making AA quality that looks great and takes risk, instead of a walking movie simulator approach.

 

[ZywyPL]

Modern AAA games didn't existed 20 years ago. In 90s you could probably count really big budget games on your fingers (FF games on PSX, MGS, Shenmue, maybe Gran Tourismo). Budgets were order of magnitude or even two smaller then. Halo team was how many people 50? In credits there are 8 programers and 12 artists. AC:Syndicate had probably more animators working on it than was employed in whole Bungie in Halo times.

That's exactly my point - pretty much every game in the 90's was an AAA game, the budget was more or less even between the games/genres created back then, because there were so few people working on those games, and gaming itself was a niche entertainment so the marketing costs weren't that huge either, because no one was trying to reach w few billion people audience, but as the time progressed, and as the budgets started to go up and up, it become clear which genres can sustain those rising development/marketing costs and which couldn't, like RTS for example which barely exist anymore.

 

[kuncol02]

pretty much every game in the 90's was an AAA game, the budget was more or less even between the games/genres created back then

I would say that's actually opposite (but that depends of AAA definition). There were no AAA games. Quake by today's standard is small indie game.
All inovation is exactly where it was 30 or 20 years ago. In games made by small, passion powered teams. There is just another additional branch in gaming which hides it for many people who are distracted by new shinny things.

 

[midasmulligan]

Anyone else feel this?

You gotta start thinking outside the box Padawan, the rabbit hole goes deep...Half Life Alyx

 

[II_JumPeR_I]

Feel the same.
If you played one current Open World game, you played them all...
Games start to feel the same to me. No matter what publisher and its getting annoying.

PS:
I freaking miss OG Tomb Raider

 

[AJUMP23]

This thread along with the Jim Ryan, "investing in new IPs is risky" thread explain why there is similarity. People want to earn back what they invest and then some. If a certain style sells, then they will develop something of that style to appeal to the widest audience.

 

[justiceiro]

Funny how all games you mentioned are single player history driven games. If want wack stuff, you have to go to the multiplayer games. Sea of thieves, dreams, overwatch, fortnite, Plants vs zombies garden warfare. All those games are full of wacky stuff, all those games were $60 at launch.

If op meant with "borderline indie" is not realistic graphics, then you not really being practical. Why invest in realism in a game that will not take itself seriously?

 

[BabyYoda]

I'd say the west has far more variety, I'm not always sure where a game came from when it's western made, but 9 times out of 10, if it's eastern made, it's incredibly obvious, too many have the exact same art style, aka manga/animé. Of course there are always exceptions, the Souls series for example.

 

[petran79]

If you mean Japanese games made by western studios like with Sonic Racing, then no.

 

[Vaelka]

You don't realize one thing. Even biggest japanese games are dwarfed by average AAA game from west in terms of budget. How many people are working on every Assassins Creed or Call of Duty? That are hundreds (in case of Ubisoft sometimes even more than thousand). You can clearly see that japanese games are heavilly limited by budget. Half of DMC4 was literally same levels but backwards and DMC5 is not only heavilly backtracking with two or even three characters going through same level but different path but also half game is in identical levels inside of fucking tree (seriously as good as that game is its level design is atrocious).
Japanese games were always low budget in comparison to western games and for me they always were closer to eurojank than western games (and I love eurojank and japanese games).

You're actually probably right about the budget thing come to think of it.
When I think of DMC5 tho I definitely think '' AAA ''.
Not so sure about RE2R and RE3R tho, they're quite short and small.
They kinda feel like smaller scale AAA games.

Funnily enough tho AC: Valhalla really doesn't look like it at all, it's not even very pretty and the animations are horrible.
I think that maybe Ubisoft are a bit in over their heads.

Funny how all games you mentioned are single player history driven games. If want wack stuff, you have to go to the multiplayer games. Sea of thieves, dreams, overwatch, fortnite, Plants vs zombies garden warfare. All those games are full of wacky stuff, all those games were $60 at launch.

If op meant with "borderline indie" is not realistic graphics, then you not really being practical. Why invest in realism in a game that will not take itself seriously?

It's not necessarily about wacky stuff, moreso about tone and visual design.
Like how drastically Tomb Raider changed for example, even a very significant part of the fanbase complain about it constantly too how completely unlikable Lara Croft has become and how much they miss the crazy acrobatics, akimbo pistols, Lara's more fun personality and Dinosaurs etc.
The Tomb Raider reboot became exactly what I am talking about, it's almost like there's a formula that is being followed to the letter with these games.
The Marvel Avengers games that flopped is another case of this, everyone is super ultra serious or sad constantly and it takes itself way too seriously to the point that it just feels restrictive imo.

I think classic Lara and Tomb Raider coming back with the same budget would be well-received and be a breath of fresh air.
And imagine a game with the spectacle of the old God of War games too with as high budget.

I'd say the west has far more variety, I'm not always sure where a game came from when it's western made, but 9 times out of 10, if it's eastern made, it's incredibly obvious, too many have the exact same art style, aka manga/animé. Of course there are always exceptions, the Souls series for example.

It's not just about existence alone, it's about budget and exposure too.
Obviously there's a lot of variety in the West too, but it's like as soon as you past a certain line it just stops.

 

[SlimeGooGoo]

.

 

[justiceiro]

Your prayers have been answered, op:

It's not necessarily about wacky stuff, moreso about tone and visual design.
Like how drastically Tomb Raider changed for example, even a very significant part of the fanbase complain about it constantly too how completely unlikable Lara Croft has become and how much they miss the crazy acrobatics, akimbo pistols, Lara's more fun personality and Dinosaurs etc.
The Tomb Raider reboot became exactly what I am talking about, it's almost like there's a formula that is being followed to the letter with these games.
The Marvel Avengers games that flopped is another case of this, everyone is super ultra serious or sad constantly and it takes itself way too seriously to the point that it just feels restrictive imo.

I think classic Lara and Tomb Raider coming back with the same budget would be well-received and be a breath of fresh air.
And imagine a game with the spectacle of the old God of War games too with as high budget

Say no more. Your prayers have been answered.

 

[FreedomOfSpeech]

I hate when they go for realism and then defy physics.

Looking at Tomb Raider with its stupid-ass floating bones.

 

[namekuseijin]

how about in the Japanese industry?

it's either a turn-based RPG with anime gals and furries, a Nintendo kiddy game about collecting stuff or some Gundam-inspired hack'n'slash...

 

[kuncol02]

Funnily enough tho AC: Valhalla really doesn't look like it at all, it's not even very pretty and the animations are horrible.

Until you realize how HUGE that game is. I spent 60 hours only playing main story. And there are side missions, environmental puzzles, mini games, hidden treasures, beast to hunt and lots more. I also can't agree that it don't look pretty. Some of environments are straight up breathtaking.

It's not necessarily about wacky stuff, moreso about tone and visual design.
Like how drastically Tomb Raider changed for example, even a very significant part of the fanbase complain about it constantly too how completely unlikable Lara Croft has become and how much they miss the crazy acrobatics, akimbo pistols, Lara's more fun personality and Dinosaurs etc.
The Tomb Raider reboot became exactly what I am talking about, it's almost like there's a formula that is being followed to the letter with these games.
The Marvel Avengers games that flopped is another case of this, everyone is super ultra serious or sad constantly and it takes itself way too seriously to the point that it just feels restrictive imo.

That's not problem with lack of variety, but quality of writing in many western (US especially) games. There is way to many people working on games who would prefer to make movies and use games as a way to show everyone how smart they are and how adult stories they write are. In all that they are forgetting why people actually play games.

Looking at Tomb Raider with its stupid-ass floating bones.

That bones are made from styrofoam so their floating is 100% realistic.

 

[Kuranghi]

Reason - Gaming is a huge business and they need to guarantee sales so its becoming more homogenized.

Modern Lara Croft failed to be as big a success as they wanted it to be so I'm sure we'll see a return to the games/tone of old.