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Learning Japanese |OT2| Love in the Time of コロナちゃん

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Deleted member 17706

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今週、日本のアマゾンから小説を買った。この本が小学三年生たちのために書いた。たぶん読める?やってみたい。また、何かいい聞きの練習が欲しい。何がある? I’ve heard Pimsleur is good, but too stiff / formal.

I'd say the best way is to get into Japanese TV, preferably with Japanese subtitles. There are a lot of shows on Netflix these days, although I'm not sure if any interest you.
 

mango drank

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I'd say the best way is to get into Japanese TV, preferably with Japanese subtitles. There are a lot of shows on Netflix these days, although I'm not sure if any interest you.

Hah I wish, I'm definitely still a beginner. I tried watching some anime with J subtitles (Evangelion, Shirokuma Cafe, other random stuff), but everything is some combination of too fast and too advanced for me right now. Even Chi's Sweet Home is probably too advanced--I can understand a full line here or there, but mostly I can just pick up a word or two in each sentence. It's also very informal and slangy. Chi's is probably the easiest of the easy shows, so I'm probably SOL in terms of watching genuine J shows for at least another few months.

Unless you're saying to just put on whatever show I'm into, and try to the read the J subtitles while listening to the dialogue, and slowly absorb whatever I can?
 
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Deleted member 17706

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Unless you're saying to just put on whatever show I'm into, and try to the read the J subtitles while listening to the dialogue, and slowly absorb whatever I can?

Honestly, yeah. It will be rough going at first, but that's the fastest way to get to a high level of proficiency in my opinion. If you're always in your comfort zone, you won't ever get out of it.

Look everything up (within reason).
 
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Porcile

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As uncool as it sounds, I started out by re-watching Dragon Ball Z with Japanese subs and never looked back. Haven't watched, read or played a piece of Japanese media in English or with English subtitles since. I don't understand everything but it's a liberating feeling knowing you can pick up just about anything and still enjoy it. I don't even use Japanese subtitles anymore. Getting over the hang up of "I can't enjoy it because I don't understand everything" is the first major step that I guess 90% people fail to go beyond.
 
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Deleted member 17706

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As uncool as it sounds, I started out by re-watching Dragon Ball Z with Japanese subs and never looked back. Haven't watched, read or played a piece of Japanese media in English or with English subtitles since. I don't understand everything but it's a liberating feeling knowing you can pick up just about anything and still enjoy it. I don't even use Japanese subtitles anymore. Getting over the hang up of "I can't enjoy it because I don't understand everything" is the first major step that I guess 90% people fail to go beyond.

One of the best parts about Japanese learning is that, as long as you can correctly hear the word, you can probably look it up. Not the case with complicated spelling in English and lots of other languages.
 
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Porcile

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One thing you could is the same as me, just pick up something you originally liked in English and burn through it in Japanese as quickly as possible. I did DBZ and Ocarina of Time. No one can tell someone else the best way for that person to study or learn things, but as with anything the process of getting good at something mostly comes about through confidence.

Saying this as someone who asked all these same questions in previous threads, and now I'm a Japanese self-study veteran passing JLPT, living in Japan, making friends, getting girlfriends and doing job interviews. All the good shit that comes with learning a second language.
 
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Sakura

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I've always wondered why the pass rate for JLPT is higher outside of Japan. Any ideas? My guess is Japanese language "schools" pushing students to take tests beyond their level, and a bunch of them not teaching anything at all but still making students take the test.

On the other hand, I would definitely would like to see the pass rates in each country especially from China. The way the test answers get posted online on Chinese sites a few hours after the test in Japan certainly raises some eyebrows. I guess any cheating fucks aren't doing anything to help themselves in the long term but still takes the piss for those of us who do everything legitimately.
If I were to completely guess, it is because people in the west are studying Japanese because they want to, and many people are taking the tests just to challenge or gauge themselves or whatever.
Lots of foreigners in Japan aren't studying Japanese because they love Japan and Japanese, they are taking the JLPT because it is necessary. So they will attempt N2 N1 (because the rest are virtually worthless) even if they aren't at the level yet, because if they somehow manage to luckily pass they can use it for work, or getting into school, or for credits at school. There are about 4 foreigners at work who have taken the N1 the last 4 times and failed all times. But they don't really study, they just want the certificate.
Anyway, do you guys have any trick for translating stuff from paper? My parents ask me to every now and then because they pick up random food items in Japan, and since I don't know all the kanji it's a bit arduous to look them all up. Usually I count the strokes, pick out one or two radicals and use something like this. Wondering if there's a better way.
You could guess the reading if there are characters inside the kanji you recognise. For example maybe you know 工, but don't know 項. Or 交 but don't know 佼. Or 講 and 購. Etc. You could just type こう, hit the space bar, and see if it comes up. Obviously won't work all the time, but many times it will.
Other than that yeah, not much other than just looking it up the hard way.
 
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Deleted member 17706

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If I were to completely guess, it is because people in the west are studying Japanese because they want to, and many people are taking the tests just to challenge or gauge themselves or whatever.
Lots of foreigners in Japan aren't studying Japanese because they love Japan and Japanese, they are taking the JLPT because it is necessary. So they will attempt N2 N1 (because the rest are virtually worthless) even if they aren't at the level yet, because if they somehow manage to luckily pass they can use it for work, or getting into school, or for credits at school. There are about 4 foreigners at work who have taken the N1 the last 4 times and failed all times. But they don't really study, they just want the certificate.

Probably this. It's a lot less convenient (fewer opportunities and locations) to take it outside of Japan, too, so the people taking it are probably a lot more motivated and prepared.
 

mango drank

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How important is it to learn proper pitch accent? Do native Japanese people get confused when they hear foreigners using wrong pitches, or using wrong pitches for common homonyms ( 雨 vs 飴, 箸 vs 橋 )? Do Japanese people understand you well enough but think you sound funny + you're dumb, or does it really throw them off?
 
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Deleted member 17706

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How important is it to learn proper pitch accent? Do native Japanese people get confused when they hear foreigners using wrong pitches, or using wrong pitches for common homonyms ( 雨 vs 飴, 箸 vs 橋 )? Do Japanese people understand you well enough but think you sound funny + you're dumb, or does it really throw them off?

I'd say 95% or more of the time, you just sound funny/dumb, but the meaning gets across fine if your Japanese is otherwise correct.

Personally, I never consciously studied pitch accent (never had even really heard of it until like 2015 or 2016), but I did do a lot of shadowing of native speakers.
 
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mango drank

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I learned a couple of Chinese words a while back, and I thought the pitch stuff made Chinese a pain in the ass, and I thought Japanese would be easier in that regard, but I guess not. And just now I realized that syllable emphasis in English words is also based mostly on pitch, not on volume. So Japanese isn't all that different after all.

Lawyer (high, low)
Cacophony (low, high, low, low)
Garage (low, high)
etc

And I guess there are homonyms in English where the pitch is different between words:
Address vs Address
De
fense vs Defense
In
sight vs Incite
 

Porcile

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I think pitch accent is a bit overkill but if you're learning it you're probably covering a lot of bases when it comes to comprehension and speaking practice. I've had a fair few times where I haven't been understood because of my shitty accent and I've just mumbled some incomprehensible garbage.
 
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mango drank

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This vid seems like a good top-level overview of the pitch patterns, with some example words. Seems like for the most part you just listen to natives talk, and memorize each word's pitch pattern that way, the way you learned English words' intonation. I'll be paying closer when learning new J vocab from now on. Before today, I didn't even know it made a difference.
 

Porcile

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I applied for JLPT in July but I guess it will be cancelled. Anyone else applying?
 

rykomatsu

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Now, there are tons of apps out there you can download on a smartphone or tablet (or even use your mouse on a PC) to draw the character and look it up. I bet there is even photo recognition stuff out there now.

Google Translate will do this in real-time with the camera. Not perfect, but for what it is, pretty good I think.

 
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mango drank

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I'm having trouble figuring out which of the following meanings the -ている verb form imparts to a given verb:
A: the continuous "doing (verb)"
B: the non-past "does (verb)"
C: "in a state of having done (verb)"

Example 1: 食べてる: I've heard that 食べてる can mean either "(currently) eating" or "in a state of having eaten." Which is it? Does it depend on context?

Example 2: 愛してる: I've seen 愛してる used to mean "loves," as in 父が母を愛してる ("dad loves mom"). Why doesn't this mean "is loving?" And so then what's the difference between saying 愛する vs 愛してる? Do they not mean the same thing?

Example 3: 始まってる: I think this usually means "in a state of having started?" But why doesn't it mean "is starting?"

Example 4: 持ってる: I've seen 持ってる used to mean "I have" or "has." But shouldn't 持つ mean "I have" / "has?" Shouldn't 持ってる mean "I'm having" / "having?"

Is there some over-arching logic for how all of these work? Something to do with whether a given verb is an "action" verb vs more of a steady-state verb?
 

Porcile

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I'm not an expert at all on grammar, as it's probably the weakest aspect of my Japanese, so I don't like commenting on the specifics of grammar, but I will say that you are doing the classic thing of fitting square pegs into round holes when it comes to translation. Seems to me like you understand the basic function of the grammar in Japanese but you want it to fit nicely into English, when it doesn't.

ている is used to express something that's ongoing or the current state of something, as far as my understanding it can be both short term and long term.

1. "In a state of having eaten." doesn't make any sense in English so I don't really understand what the question is.
2. No they don't mean the same thing because する and している are doing functionally different things IN JAPANESE.
3. Again overthinking the translation here. It probably could mean starting.
4. It shouldn't mean "I'm having" because if I said "I'm having a wallet" it's wrong in English. 持っている is used in Japanese as a way to express being in possession of something. For example お金を持っている would be very natural to express the possession of money either on your person or perhaps more figuratively like saying that person is rich. Something like あの男の人はお金を持っている 人です。 That man is a rich person. I didn't even use -ing.

Probably not useful but ditch the overcomplicated translations and start thinking about what the sentence is doing Japanese rather than trying to directly translate into English.
 
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mango drank

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ている is used to express something that's ongoing or the current state of something, as far as my understanding it can be both short term and long term.

Ahhh thanks, those two definitions help clear it up. So converting a verb to ている changes its meaning to some combination of those two definitions, depending on the verb. So on the more "action"-y side, 食べてる means "eating," 泳いでる means "swimming," and 遊んでる means "playing." On the other hand, 持ってる means "have / has (ongoing)," 住んでる means "reside / resides (ongoing)," 愛してる means "love / loves (ongoing)," etc.

Beyond that though, I don't understand the functional difference between less "action"-y verbs in the ている form and those same verbs' plain dictionary form. If 「携帯を持ってる」 means "I have a cell phone (ongoing)," then what does 「携帯を持つ」 mean? And if 「父が母を愛してる」 means "dad loves mom (ongoing)," then what does 「父が母愛する」 mean? Etc. Do the plain dictionary forms imply a temporary / transient state? E.g., 「携帯を持つ」 might mean something like "I have a cellphone that I just stole, and I'm going to give it to my girlfriend in 5 minutes?"

Last point: I remember hearing the weird "in a state of having (verb)ed" definition of ている somewhere a while back. Maybe it was wrong haha.
 

Porcile

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Ahhh thanks, those two definitions help clear it up. So converting a verb to ている changes its meaning to some combination of those two definitions, depending on the verb. So on the more "action"-y side, 食べてる means "eating," 泳いでる means "swimming," and 遊んでる means "playing." On the other hand, 持ってる means "have / has (ongoing)," 住んでる means "reside / resides (ongoing)," 愛してる means "love / loves (ongoing)," etc.

Beyond that though, I don't understand the functional difference between less "action"-y verbs in the ている form and those same verbs' plain dictionary form. If 「携帯を持ってる」 means "I have a cell phone (ongoing)," then what does 「携帯を持つ」 mean? And if 「父が母を愛してる」 means "dad loves mom (ongoing)," then what does 「父が母愛する」 mean? Etc. Do the plain dictionary forms imply a temporary / transient state? E.g., 「携帯を持つ」 might mean something like "I have a cellphone that I just stole, and I'm going to give it to my girlfriend in 5 minutes?"

Last point: I remember hearing the weird "in a state of having (verb)ed" definition of ている somewhere a while back. Maybe it was wrong haha.

The dictionary form usually just indicates you or someone / something else will do the action of the verb.

携帯を持つ = I'll hold the phone 
父が母愛する = Dad will love mum.
リンゴを食べる = I'll eat an apple.

I'm using will to translate the dictionary form but consider this very loose, since there are various ways to express the nuance of will such as そう and つもり. Now compare it to している/してる.

携帯を持ってる = I have a cellphone.
父が母を愛してる = Dad is in love with mum.
リンゴを食べてる = I'm eating an apple

Context is king. Is the action going to be carried out or is it already happening? Again some verbs in Japanese have different nuance compared to their English counterpart. Japanese in general has lots of ways to express the nuance of situations and you'll go crazy trying to fit them all into English.

"In a state of having (verb)ed" sounds like some textbook nonsense. Disregard completely and concentrate on what the Japanese is expressing at that time.
 

Mr White

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So, looks like all sites I used to watch anime with jpn subs have died. Animelon, Terakoya, AnimeJpnSub. I currently use Netflix, but it very inconvenient for learning Japanese purpose. Does anyone know any alternatives?
 
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Porcile

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So, looks like all sites I used to watch anime with jpn subs have died. Animelon, Terakoya, AnimeJpnSub. I currently use Netflix, but it very inconvenient for learning Japanese purpose. Does anyone know any alternatives?

Are you using the Japanese Netflix ? The last time I used it all anime and shows had Japanese subtitles.
 

Mr White

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Are you using the Japanese Netflix ? The last time I used it all anime and shows had Japanese subtitles.
As I said Netflix is not as convenient as sites I listed, where you could jump between sentences or loop them, which is really helpful. I mean it is better than nothing, but still..
 

mango drank

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I Googled around for info, and it looks like Animelon had a chain of technical problems they've been trying to recover from, and they're actively working on bringing everything back online, though it seems to be taking a while. Fingers crossed it comes back soon.
 

Kayoba

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I'm not good at japanese at all since I don't dedicate enough time for studying. I can basically only read hiragana and katakana as well as ~50 kanji. I'm a little bit more confident when it comes to vocabulary, grammar and listening comprehension though. But I desperatly need to improve my reading since I'm very slow at it.

I currently play Yo-kai Watch 1 on Nintendo Switch. The game is entirely in furigana and doesn't have voice acting for the most part. Are there any recommendations of other japanese games that is in furigana only without voice acting?
 

Mr White

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I'm not good at japanese at all since I don't dedicate enough time for studying. I can basically only read hiragana and katakana as well as ~50 kanji. I'm a little bit more confident when it comes to vocabulary, grammar and listening comprehension though. But I desperatly need to improve my reading since I'm very slow at it.

I currently play Yo-kai Watch 1 on Nintendo Switch. The game is entirely in furigana and doesn't have voice acting for the most part. Are there any recommendations of other japanese games that is in furigana only without voice acting?
If I remember correctly The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword has furigana
But i don't think furigana will vastly improve your kanji reading skill.
 

Kayoba

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If I remember correctly The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword has furigana
But i don't think furigana will vastly improve your kanji reading skill.

I'll check it out, thank you very much. I know it will not improve my kanji reading, that's not my goal at the moment.

I may know both kana alphabet, but I still struggle to comprehend a sentence when I read furigana. I feel like a four year old when I'm reading and I'm well aware it's because I don't study or read japanese as much as I should be doing. So I figured that playing a japanese game with furigana every now and then is a casual way for me to refresh my memory.
I took a sample quiz of JLPT N5 a while back ago and while I though that the questions were easy to understand. I did notice that what should've taken me 30 seconds to read took me nearly 5 minutes to read instead.

Before I found out that Yo-kai Watch used furigana, I used to read news articles from NHK Easy because it's easy to understand as they colorcode certain words like cities in their articles and provide an audio/video as well. Another thing I like about NHK is that I encounter a lot of new phrases as well.
The problem with NHK however is that many news articles are quite boring and I lose motivation when I read them. I also read some easier manga like Yotsuba&, but now I want something a bit more interactive way of reading.
 
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Mr White

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The problem with NHK however is that many news articles are quite boring and I lose motivation when I read them
Maybe reading something like famitsu will be more interesting?
I tried reading NHK, but got bored very fast, since I do not even read news in my native language 🤷‍♂️
 

HE1NZ

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I'm playing a bit of Yokai Watch in Japanese. I figured it's pretty good for learning vocabulary, it has furigana, pause on every dialogue line, and good vibes. 3DS screen is sharp enough to recognize kanji. Haven't gone too far, but getting better.

How do you write kanji here by the way? Do you copy paste it from somewhere?
 

mango drank

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How do you write kanji here by the way? Do you copy paste it from somewhere?

There are different methods for different operating systems. If you want to use the native Windows or macOS Japanese input methods, or want to install Japanese input on mobile, check this article out:

Alternately, you can use the Google Japanese IME add-on. If you're on Windows 10 or macOS, you can download that below. After installing and enabling the Google IME add-on, my default key combo in Windows 10 for toggling between Japanese and English input is Windows Key + Spacebar. The switcher also shows up in the lower-right notification area of the Windows taskbar. Dunno how it works on macOS.
 

HE1NZ

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There are different methods for different operating systems. If you want to use the native Windows or macOS Japanese input methods, or want to install Japanese input on mobile, check this article out:

Alternately, you can use the Google Japanese IME add-on. If you're on Windows 10 or macOS, you can download that below. After installing and enabling the Google IME add-on, my default key combo in Windows 10 for toggling between Japanese and English input is Windows Key + Spacebar. The switcher also shows up in the lower-right notification area of the Windows taskbar. Dunno how it works on macOS.
ありがとうございます。
日本は一番です。

ハインズ
 

HE1NZ

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この解決で遊ぶのは楽しいよ
 
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HE1NZ

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コッマンドンコンカレマステレドコレクションは美しいや面白いゲームです。強くお勧めします。
 

Porcile

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コッマンドンコンカレマステレドコレクションは美しいや面白いゲームです。強くお勧めします。

美しくて、面白いゲームです

You don't use や when using multiple い adjectives.
 
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Hal.

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Subbed and rolling in here with a bit of background/perspective for reference. I don't speak fantastic Japanese but more than enough to survive and to play vidya without issue, and do sort of everyday business (worked in a Japanese company for a bit while I lived there).

Imo you won't be able to enjoyably play vidya until you have passed N3 and are well on the way to studying for N2. It is frustrating to have to look up multiple words and kanji every sentence as this breaks up the fun.

Would be happy to weigh in with some learning tips if anyone is interested, as I made a LOT of mistakes on the quest for N1 which probably resulted in me passing it a year later than I should have.

I can basically give you a highly efficient rundown of how to study most effectively for the JLPT which will, by default, enable you to speak Japanese (but not write it - you will be able to type)

Background:
  • Got on JET programme, arrived with basically no Japanese, could barely read hiragana and katakana
  • Fucked around for a year, stumbled through Genki 1 and 2 with a private tutor but could barely have more than a 1 sided conversation
  • Realised I fucked up and hit the books hard
  • Passed N3 6 months after beginning to study properly (18 months after arrival in Japan)
  • Passed N2 6 months later
  • Failed N1 at first attempt (12 months after passing N3)
  • Failed N1 at second attempt (didn't study at all as was moving job and priorities changed, but almost passed)
  • Passed N1 at the next attempt, 2.5 years after beginning to study properly (although with a massive slowdown after my first n1 attempt due to increased hours at new job).

I didn't get a good mark on N1 (scraped a pass), but a pass is still a pass.
 

ReyBrujo

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Subscribing here. I like languages in general, been studying Japanese on and off for 20 years. I'm not really interested in becoming an expert, though, it's the way I get rid of stress. I passed N2 back in 2016 and then took (still taking) a long break after that. In 2011 I created a subbing group to translate AKB48's TV programs which greatly enhanced my listening skills.

I'd say my main advice is keep yourself motivated. As mentioned above, if you don't like reading NHK news (which are a great way of practicing) then read Famitsu articles. If you like anime, try finding a slice-of-life one (samurai- and ninja-related anime usually have obsolete vocabulary which won't be useful, tech- and magic-related, and futuristic anime usually have fictional vocabulary, etc). Back in 2010 I started following Japanese idols so eventually decided to make my own subbing group because there weren't that many translations and I wanted to fully understand the shows. Then I started liking owarai/manzai (Japanese comedians) so I started watching their contests (R-1, THE MANZAI, etc) and their TV programs (London Hearts, Mechaike, etc). Nowadays I like sumo so I watch the NHK broadcasts about that.

Good luck everyone!
 
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outrageousfacts.wordpress.com
"I'm not an expert, I don't speak fantastic Japanese" -> goes on to talk about having passed N2 or even N1.

SaitamaOk.gif

And here I failed N3 after many years of (on and off) learning. Admittedly, I suffer from severe anxiety during tests, but still ... :/

Since I learnt pretty much most of the grammar, I focus on learning Kanji every day, using AnkiDroid, and watching anime.

If there's one area where I'm super bad still, it's reading Japanese names. Like, I know the Kanji when used in a word, but when it's someone's name (or a town name), I'm stuck guessing what could be the correct reading. Any advice on that?
 
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ReyBrujo

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If there's one area where I'm super bad still, it's reading Japanese names. Like, I know the Kanji when used in a word, but when it's someone's name (or a town name), I'm stuck guessing what could be the correct reading. Any advice on that?
Memory :messenger_beaming:

You can guess some names based on the readings of the characters but usually anime, manga and some young people (millennials and centennials) carry really odd combinations (like 希明, Kohaku, not that many Japanese can read it). But you will find one Kohaku every 1000 Momoka or Minami. Personally I'd only learn names I find and use that prior experience when I find variations, for example you have 桃香, Momoka, then you can have 桃子, Momoko, 桃菜, Momona, 桃花, Momoka, etc. Best way to learn names is to be actually exposed to them, for example in manga you are exposed to them in every other page, but in anime and series they are mostly used orally so it won't help you at all.

Here is where Japanese variety TV programs can be helpful because they use what's called ワイプ, waipu, which are small picture in picture boxes usually at the top with the face of someone along their name, when they mention others their names often appear in テロップ (teroppu, telops), the colorful hardcoded subs at the bottom, and participants usually wear name tags which help identify them, etc.


Now, I strongly advice against learning kanji names for places outside of Japan as they use ateji which are worthless, not even Japanese people care about them.
 
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Hal.

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"I'm not an expert, I don't speak fantastic Japanese" -> goes on to talk about having passed N2 or even N1.

SaitamaOk.gif

And here I failed N3 after many years of (on and off) learning. Admittedly, I suffer from severe anxiety during tests, but still ... :/

Since I learnt pretty much most of the grammar, I focus on learning Kanji every day, using AnkiDroid, and watching anime.

If there's one area where I'm super bad still, it's reading Japanese names. Like, I know the Kanji when used in a word, but when it's someone's name (or a town name), I'm stuck guessing what could be the correct reading. Any advice on that?

The sad truth of it, my friend, is that N1 means that you have a sort of basic high school level vocab.

It's a bit like level cap on an MMO. N1 is level cap, and then the game actually begins...

As for town names and proper names etc, that's just trial and error imo. They often have bizarre readings so it's just a case of getting used to it.

I'd say a good start would be learning the names of the major Japanese castles, as that will cover a lot of kanji and odd readings.
 
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The sad truth of it, my friend, is that N1 means that you have a sort of basic high school level vocab.

It's a bit like level cap on an MMO. N1 is level cap, and then the game actually begins...

That's honestly hard to beleive, as everywhere else you always read that N1 is even too hard for most Japanese people who haven't actively learned for it. I think you being a professional translater warps your perspective here a bit :p

As for town names and proper names etc, that's just trial and error imo. They often have bizarre readings so it's just a case of getting used to it.

I'd say a good start would be learning the names of the major Japanese castles, as that will cover a lot of kanji and odd readings.

Yeah, I think I'll just pick some of the most commong ones (like Takahashi) and then use the method that ReyBrujo ReyBrujo mentioned where I learn slight alterations of these. I'm at the very beginning of trying to read the novel "Order made satsujin Club" and the names are the biggest problem (although I lack many other kanji, too ...). Fucking "Serika" >_<
 
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K1Expwy

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I used to play Japanews24 throughout the day, but there's too much crap going on in the world, I don't feel like listening to the news right now. Could someone recommend other 24h JP material on Youtube or elsewhere, that I can just leave on in the background while I wfh and pay the bills?
It's not that I dislike manga/anime/idol/vidya topics, but I'd prefer listening to something more down-to-earth I guess, like documentaries and stuff
 

Hal.

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That's honestly hard to beleive, as everywhere else you always read that N1 is even too hard for most Japanese people who haven't actively learned for it. I think you being a professional translater warps your perspective here a bit :p



Yeah, I think I'll just pick some of the most commong ones (like Takahashi) and then use the method that ReyBrujo ReyBrujo mentioned where I learn slight alterations of these. I'm at the very beginning of trying to read the novel "Order made satsujin Club" and the names are the biggest problem (although I lack many other kanji, too ...). Fucking "Serika" >_<

The N1 quote is a myth. Your average Japanese person would probably drop a few marks, but the issue is that Japanese people get mixed up with the 日本語能力試験 (N5-N1) and 日本語検定 which is much, much harder and aimed at Japanese people.

1級 in Nihongo kentei is apparently absolutely brutal, and that's the one that natives struggle with (although I don't have a huge amount of experience with that testing system).

N1 is easily doable for a white collar worker. Although just for the sake of amusement, I took some of my N1 materials to work once and did some problems with the white collar workers and blue collar workers in the company. White collars absolutely breezed through it, blue collars struggled with grammar in particular.

It would be the same if you or I took a really in depth English language test. We'd probably drop a few marks here and there, but storm through it overall.
 

ReyBrujo

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I'd think the average man would end up losing more than just a few marks. I know I'd have a damn hard time trying to pass a top Spanish (in fact I believe I'd pass a C2 English certification much easily than a C2 Spanish certification even though Spanish is my native language)! Heck, I see English natives writing "your" instead of "you're", don't tell me they'd get a CPE certification :messenger_tears_of_joy:


The thing is, when you start primary school you aren't taught how to buy stuff from a local store because you were taught by your parents, by imitating, by looking. And if you are doing it wrong you aren't corrected. Then comes an exam that asks you the right way of using a verb and you just answer with what you know. In English it might not be that noticeable because Spanish has 3 persons, tenses and verbal moods, aspect, number and voice which end up in 10 different conjugations for every verb, each to be used in different situations but some of which are just misused (for example, very few people use the future tense, most use what would be the gerund, that's, virtually nobody says I'll go to the cinema, people just say "I'm going to..."). A native just doesn't care about the difference, but foreigners are taught to care about them, so eventually a foreign guy studying Spanish would have better chances of passing SIELE or CELU than a native. What happens in that video with Japanese would happen for English native or for Spanish native with advanced tests in their own language.

Down here, as a different example, there's actually quite a lot of buzz because young people don't understand texts. They reach college without comprehending texts. They can read it alright but they get confused when asked to say whether that paragraph was about X or Y. And that's a good chunk of any exam.

Regarding names again, I used to follow female idol groups so ended up learning probably a couple hundreds different female names. Some of the odd ones I can't write but I can read immediately. However, I wouldn't be able to say if that was a fast process or not, I never actually sit down to memorize them but instead learned them by osmosis after associating their faces with their names and then with their name tags.

There are worse tests than N1, take kanji ones like Kentei for example. There are whole TV programs aimed at kanji writing. And back when I watched them japanese people who passed Kentei 1 were hard to find, especially in the entertainment business.
 
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That's honestly hard to beleive, as everywhere else you always read that N1 is even too hard for most Japanese people who haven't actively learned for it. I think you being a professional translater warps your perspective here a bit :p

No, N1 isn't shit, to be honest. Just about any Japanese middle schooler would be able to pass it easily.
 
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Sakura

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That's honestly hard to beleive, as everywhere else you always read that N1 is even too hard for most Japanese people who haven't actively learned for it. I think you being a professional translater warps your perspective here a bit :p
Nah, N1 is actually really easy.
To begin with, N1 doesn't actually require you to write or speak in Japanese. It is merely a test of how much you can understand. I know people who have passed N1 yet speak Japanese worse than people who only have N3 or N2, just because they happened to have a strong grasp of kanji or something.
For comparison, I've taken TOEFL twice, and I was required to write paragraphs on things heard in conversation, and I was required to record myself speaking as well in other questions. It was much harder and more in depth compared to something like the JLPT.
There is no way that most Japanese people would find N1 hard. I got a near perfect score on TOEFL, without studying for it, simply because I am a native English speaker. The vocab and language requirements for the N1 are much easier than that, so I don't see how a native speaker could possibly struggle.
Finally, the thing with N1 is, it is a pass or a fail. Nobody cares what score you got, they just want the certificate. A guy who gets 100/180 and a guy who gets 180/180 will both say they have their N1 though in reality there is probably a significant difference in their Japanese ability.
 
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Hal.

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I got a near perfect score on TOEFL, without studying for it, simply because I am a native English speaker.

Hah, look at this guy and his Unglish skill.

Native speaker man make fire. Drop mark on TOEFL. Ug ug.

:messenger_tears_of_joy::messenger_tears_of_joy:
 

Porcile

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JLPT discussion in a nut shell:

People who have never taken JLPT: "JLPT sucks. It doesnt test speaking but if it did I would be like N2 at least for sure. Also Chinese people have an unfair advantage. "

People who failed JLPT but never retook the test: "JLPT sucks. I only failed by a few points, I swear. Anyway, JLPT is just a dick measuring contest. Also if it had a speaking section I would be N1 for sure."

Weebs: "I've been studying Japanese for ten years. I hope I can pass N5 this year. I've failed it three times already.

People who passed N1: "JLPT sucks. it's so easy. Even an eight year old blind Japanese child could pass it. Also it's completely useless. I know who people who passed N1 and they can't speak Japanese at all, unlike me."
 
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Tschumi

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Wow. I live here, I am having huge difficulty getting into learning the language. I've lived here for about 18 months at this point but still struggle to piece together conversations. For the first year or so I was teaching English, but I've had a bunch of free time since the end of the last school year and I've largely just been procrastinating or drowning myself in English language interests to resist having to dive into learning the lingo~

In my life I've learnt German, French, Spanish and Mandarin at different times to different levels - I know my initial perceived problem with learning Japanese when I came here was the idea that I was lacking the structured help that I enjoyed with all of those languages. I get a lot of joy out of Duolingo these days but I lack anyone to really practice with (funny, considering I live with a local... she's verrry busy with her own stuff) and the lack of tangible progress can be pretty disconcerting.

I dunno how you guys might be able to help me out, but I'm really stoked to see that you're here! I really hope this community can help me make a difference in my Japanese efforts to date~
 
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