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[Cheezewizz]

https://www.frommers.com/trip-ideas...s-are-in-a-lot-more-trouble-than-people-think

another example of how an acquisition of this magnitude is not a slam dunk. (spending money is easy) MS's hard work is just beginning.

Assimilation and things like cohesion, will be a lot of work for sure. I imagine aspects like workplace environment would also require quite a bit of work as well specifically referring to Activision.

But nothing you posted is really comparable to Microsoft's situation. Disney loaded themselves down with debt in order to make those acquisitions. They're now having to funnel their revenue to pay down that debt. Comparably, MS has fuck you money the likes of which Disney couldn't even dream about. Even if we exclude MS's vastly bigger piles of cash, Disney still wouldn't be comparable because they wouldn't be going into debt the same way. When you have the kind of incredibly rare credit rating MS does, you operate on an entire different level from everyone else when it comes to borrowing money.

 

[Three]

The idea of you talking about pom poms when you are sitting there denying reality that MS has been far more free with their IP than any other platform is hilarious. Keep on thinking Minecraft wasn't significantly expanded under MS.

I'm not the one who keeps getting ridiculous tags like yours. You said MS are the only platform holder who bring their IP to other platforms. I only told you that's not true, that very few companies buy "their IP" and the very few cases that they do others release on other platforms too if the publisher/studio was already. You've got your MS pom poms out though trying to still argue.

I spoke about the ZeniMax acquisition before the Bungie acquisition because I wanted to keep things recent and relevant. If you want to focus on the past with Psygnosis you should then have no problems with this publisher acquisition then since Sony bought one before Xbox existed right? You can't have it both ways. Either both Sony and MS were wrong and should never buy big studios or both are fine and should do whatever is legal when it comes business.

You spoke about Zenimax because you were trying to suggest that Bungie is about keeping already released games multiplatform and say how it isn't the same as Minecraft. Then when I showed that future games release multiplatform too you started talking about who "did it first" which again was wrong but it seems you're desperate for your MS medal or something.

 

[Heisenberg007]

Since all first party games come to Gamepass day one and those games can be streamed almost everyone has a device that can play the games, nobody has to miss out.

Sorry you feel this way. Fact still remains MS has expanded access to their IP in more ways than any other platform has for theirs. People without PlayStations continue to outnumber people who have one.

No. Gamepass/xCloud has a maximum of 25 million users.

With this acquisition, Microsoft is making these games available to 25 million users and taking games away from ~150 million PlayStation users. So that's a net reduction of ~125 million gamers.

 

[pasterpl]

No. Gamepass/xCloud has a maximum of 25 million users.

With this acquisition, Microsoft is making these games available to 25 million users and taking games away from ~150 million PlayStation users. So that's a net reduction of ~125 million gamers.

You are making a huge assumption that all of these games would be cross gen for the next 10years.

 

[feynoob]

https://www.frommers.com/trip-ideas...s-are-in-a-lot-more-trouble-than-people-think

another example of how an acquisition of this magnitude is not a slam dunk. (spending money is easy) MS's hard work is just beginning.

Isn't Disney issue bad business decisions? And the reason why bob Igor is back again?

 

[Heisenberg007]

You are making a huge assumption that all of these games would be cross gen for the next 10years.

You can take current-gen only, and my point will still be valid.

Current-gen users only: 25 million XGP/xCloud users (even if we assume that all 25M subscribers have next-gen Xbox systems) vs. 30 million+ PS5 users.

However one slices it, the inclusion of these games on Gamepass and the exclusion of PlayStation users only means that these games will be available to fewer people post Microsoft's acquisitions, not more.

 

[Three]

You are making a huge assumption that all of these games would be cross gen for the next 10years.

The funny thing is that it's MS making these assumptions in court. They say nobody uses cloud because it's slow and useless and that their competitor has a 150M install base.

MS: Cloud gaming is a nascent technology that does not yet have a compelling use case. The quality of general purpose devices like mobile handsets is growing so fast that many complicated games can be played locally on the device and do not need extra computational power from the cloud. Latency – how long it takes for the instruction to shoot my opponent to get from my finger, to the server, into the
game, and back to my screen – can be significant and degrade the quality of fast-paced games run in the cloud. No one likes their character to be killed immediately every time they enter the game.

MS: Sony is the market leader for consoles and has been for over 20 years. Its PlayStation platform is ahead of Xbox in all relevant metrics (as is Nintendo).

PlayStation's installed base of consoles (151.4 million in 2021) is more than double the size of Xbox's (63.7 million in 2021).

 

[reksveks]

The Disney comparison is also just a weird one, as you get bigger you generally become less risk-tolerant or at least perceived to be.

I know some people think the Apple is rather stagnant in comparison to the Jobs era. Not 100% sure its accurate but ehh.

 

[feynoob]

No. Gamepass/xCloud has a maximum of 25 million users.

That is false notion.

 

[Heisenberg007]

That is false notion.

That's official data.

Microsoft’s Xbox Game Pass service grows to 25 million subscribers

Just as Microsoft adds Activision to the Xbox Game Pass library

www.theverge.com

 

[Riky]

No. Gamepass/xCloud has a maximum of 25 million users.

With this acquisition, Microsoft is making these games available to 25 million users and taking games away from ~150 million PlayStation users. So that's a net reduction of ~125 million gamers.

People are free to sign up if they want to play those games, without buying any additional console. The number of people who have a mobile phone or tablet who have access to these games dwarfs any other group.

 

[Ozzy Onya A2Z]

Added something to my bingo card...MS win, deal closes, Sony burnt bridges, COD removed from PS, Gamepass includes COD and shutdown sweetener to PS playerbase is free GP Ultimate for 3 months with all loot unlocked players had already.

If I was Phil and things play out a certain way I'd likely push these elements further too.

 

[ToTTenTranz]

Added something to my bingo card...MS win, deal closes, Sony burnt bridges, COD removed from PS, Gamepass includes COD and shutdown sweetener to PS playerbase is free GP Ultimate for 3 months with all loot unlocked players had already.

Believing there's even hope for a deal without a ton of concessions is January 2022 levels of cognitive dissonance.

Are you using Internet Explorer?

 

[12Dannu123]

Believing there's even hope for a deal without a ton of concessions is January 2022 levels of cognitive dissonance.

Are you using Internet Explorer?

What are the concessions exactly beyond those already announced? What legal precedent will there be for concessions? If EU and CMA approve it without concessions, Microsoft isn't legally required to guarantee 10 years of COD to PS. MS will be for Nintendo since they signed an agreement with them.

 

[Thirty7ven]

Added something to my bingo card...MS win, deal closes, Sony burnt bridges, COD removed from PS, Gamepass includes COD and shutdown sweetener to PS playerbase is free GP Ultimate for 3 months with all loot unlocked players had already.

If I was Phil and things play out a certain way I'd likely push these elements further too.

Why do you even waste your time with these fantasies?

 

[Ozzy Onya A2Z]

It's a bingo card, joke outcomes, real ones etc...have a laugh FFS.

 

[ToTTenTranz]

What are the concessions exactly beyond those already announced? What legal precedent will there be for concessions? If EU and CMA approve it without concessions, Microsoft isn't legally required to guarantee 10 years of COD to PS.

I can't believe there's more than one person still hoping for this scenario. It's like the last year of regulatory action never happened.

 

[feynoob]

That's official data.

http://[URL]https://www.theverge.co...s-subscribers-25-million-microsoft-activision

[/URL]

Activision games would still be available on both PC and Xbox. Not just gamepass and xcloud. So your numbers are wrong.
Big games would be available on PS, depends on the contract.
Smaller games would be exclusive. Since they don't sell 5m above, gamepass reach makes sense for them.
In 10 years,. Xcloud trajectory would be 100m userbase, if MS can keep their current trajectory. And that is due to cloud gaming being able to play like console (technology is advancing at rapid speed).

 

[12Dannu123]

I can't believe there's more than one person still hoping for this scenario. It's like the last year of regulatory action never happened.

I never said that this won't happen. I said that IF it happens. This depends on if CMA and EC can find an issue that requires a Behavorial concession.

 

[Riky]

Activision games would still be available on both PC and Xbox. Not just gamepass and xcloud. So your numbers are wrong.
Big games would be available on PS, depends on the contract.
Smaller games would be exclusive. Since they don't sell 5m above, gamepass reach makes sense for them.
In 10 years,. Xcloud trajectory would be 100m userbase, if MS can keep their current trajectory. And that is due to cloud gaming being able to play like console (technology is advancing at rapid speed).

Also that "official data" is almost 12 months old, it could be 30 million by now.

 

[Banjo64]

I am so torn on this.

When the merger happens and the catalog gets added to game pass, should I download the Tony Hawk games first, or Crash Bandicoot 4?

Tony Hawk’s Pro Skater, and I say that as someone who completed and enjoyed Crash 4 recently.

Minecraft Dungeons and Legends would not have existed without MS' funding and they too were put on multiple platforms when they could have been exclusive. These are facts.

I think Mojang, who had sold 50m copies of Minecraft at the time of Microsoft’s buy out, could fund new projects independently.

 

[Panajev2001a]

People are free to sign up if they want to play those games, without buying any additional console. The number of people who have a mobile phone or tablet who have access to these games dwarfs any other group.

As if Cloud gaming could fill the needs of all those gamers like consoles would. I know you are just saying what you need to say in support of your argument despite how it sounds, but it is Blizzard Diablo immortal “don’t you people have phones” level of contempt for your fans… ah sorry “consuuuumers”…

 

[Panajev2001a]

The funny thing is that it's MS making these assumptions in court. They say nobody uses cloud because it's slow and useless and that their competitor has a 150M install base.

Sorry Riky , you will need to argue with MS about why they are wrong about cloud and you are not .

I love how they are throwing their own services under the bus (making them appear worse than they likely are, but still for many people it will perform like that) to look meek and humble.

 

[pasterpl]

The funny thing is that it's MS making these assumptions in court. They say nobody uses cloud because it's slow and useless and that their competitor has a 150M install base.

What ms is stating is correct, all 2022 Sony exclusives were cross gen, most big AAA games were cross gen, what I was responding to was assumption that we will be in this cross gen phase for another 10 years. Also yes, you have got a big bunch of ps4 players and with logic of some people here, Sony should continue publishing games on ps4 indefinitely as otherwise some players will miss out on games if these are not published on their platform.

You can take current-gen only, and my point will still be valid.

Current-gen users only: 25 million XGP/xCloud users (even if we assume that all 25M subscribers have next-gen Xbox systems) vs. 30 million+ PS5 users.

However one slices it, the inclusion of these games on Gamepass and the exclusion of PlayStation users only means that these games will be available to fewer people post Microsoft's acquisitions, not more.

Now compare what is barrier to entry for gamepass vs ps5. Lots more people will be able to try gamepass and play these games on their potatoe pc’s via browsers or native, smartphones, tablets, smart tvs etc. without a need to buy additional hardware* (some might require to buy controlller). All recent MS games are available to more players than most playstation games (ms publishes day one on pc, and on gamepass). I cannot count MLB in Sony pot as it published by someone else on pc.

 

[pasterpl]

Sorry Riky , you will need to argue with MS about why they are wrong about cloud and you are not .

I love how they are throwing their own services under the bus (making them appear worse than they likely are, but still for many people it will perform like that) to look meek and humble.

I think that Sony was making much better argument for gamepass being market leader than even Riky in the Brazilian case against this acquisition.

 

[Panajev2001a]

I think that Sony was making much better argument for gamepass being market leader than even Riky in the Brazilian case against this acquisition.

Brazil and Chile as ultimate battlegrounds, feels like MGS4 with console warriors PMC’s fighting the big powers proxy wars .

 

[DenchDeckard]

Anything new happening? Hopefully we get something soon? Should be more entertainment until we get a proper showcase from Sony and MS.

 

[Three]

What ms is stating is correct, all 2022 Sony exclusives were cross gen, most big AAA games were cross gen, what I was responding to was assumption that we will be in this cross gen phase for another 10 years.

Where does what you responded to assume that we will be in this crossgen phase for another ten years? Where does it even mention crossgen or 10 years?

Also yes, you have got a big bunch of ps4 players and with logic of some people here, Sony should continue publishing games on ps4 indefinitely as otherwise some players will miss out on games if these are not published on their platform.

Not sure what you're saying here, so do legacy devices count or not to potential users?

Now compare what is barrier to entry for gamepass vs ps5. Lots more people will be able to try gamepass and play these games on their potatoe pc’s via browsers or native, smartphones, tablets, smart tvs etc. without a need to buy additional hardware* (some might require to buy controlller). All recent MS games are available to more players than most playstation games (ms publishes day one on pc, and on gamepass). I cannot count MLB in Sony pot as it published by someone else on pc.

The point is that MS are making the argument that nobody wants to use xcloud because it is an inferior experience so they don't expect a lot of users and that Sony has a 150M install base which is more important.

 

[Riky]

As if Cloud gaming could fill the needs of all those gamers like consoles would. I know you are just saying what you need to say in support of your argument despite how it sounds, but it is Blizzard Diablo immortal “don’t you people have phones” level of contempt for your fans… ah sorry “consuuuumers”…

Cloud gaming is constantly improving, I use it often, it's good to have the option to use it without being forced to buy a console to play.
Cloud gaming also works on previous generation Xbox consoles and on a PC so it's not just for mobile phones. Practically everybody has access.

 

[feynoob]

As if Cloud gaming could fill the needs of all those gamers like consoles would. I know you are just saying what you need to say in support of your argument despite how it sounds, but it is Blizzard Diablo immortal “don’t you people have phones” level of contempt for your fans… ah sorry “consuuuumers”…

It can. Just like how PS consumers can spend $300 on xss.
We can talk about technicality, but cloud gaming can play those games, and cost less money while available in different way (TV, browser, PC (not including mobile here)).

It's just the service is limited right now, and consumers are on the fence. But that doesn't mean cloud gaming can't fill their needs.

You have to remember that consoles are tied by their productions status. I can get xcloud, depending on it's availability. While consoles on other hand depends on how fast they are being made.

Both have their cons and pros.

 

[wolffy71]

MS was never going to pass up on the revenue that COD makes on PS. Both sides already know that but Sony is still going to use the idea as leverage.

The sticking point is will cod be on PS, xbox will say yes but try to vague on the time frame, seeing that as their bargaining chip.

A judge will see that MS is willing to alleviate Sonys complaint, after some back and forth, and say there's no further reason for scrutiny.

Sony is just trying to get the best deal and MS is using any leverage to minimize concessions but I think both know it's gonna happen.

 

[Heisenberg007]

Now compare what is barrier to entry for gamepass vs ps5. Lots more people will be able to try gamepass and play these games on their potatoe pc’s via browsers or native, smartphones, tablets, smart tvs etc. without a need to buy additional hardware* (some might require to buy controlller). All recent MS games are available to more players than most playstation games (ms publishes day one on pc, and on gamepass). I cannot count MLB in Sony pot as it published by someone else on pc.

What barrier? 30 million people already have the hardware, which will almost double by the end of the year, while only 25 million have subscribed to XGP.

Even if a Bethesda Xbox exclusive game releases today on Gamepass, it'll launch on a smaller userbase because the excluded group (PlayStation) is bigger in size than Gamepass.

If Bethesda was not acquired and released Starfield on all platforms, more people would have access to it. This goes directly against what Microsoft claims.

 

[Heisenberg007]

Also that "official data" is almost 12 months old, it could be 30 million by now.

Or 20 million, who knows.

That's why we should consider the last officially shared data.

 

[Riky]

Or 20 million, who knows.

That's why we should consider the last officially shared data.

I haven't seen a year where Gamepass subscriptions have dropped since it's inception, so I'd happily take 25 million as the baseline. I'm sure they release new figures in January anyway.

 

[Pelta88]

No. Gamepass/xCloud has a maximum of 25 million users.

With this acquisition, Microsoft is making these games available to 25 million users and taking games away from ~150 million PlayStation users. So that's a net reduction of ~125 million gamers.

You can take current-gen only, and my point will still be valid.

Current-gen users only: 25 million XGP/xCloud users (even if we assume that all 25M subscribers have next-gen Xbox systems) vs. 30 million+ PS5 users.

However one slices it, the inclusion of these games on Gamepass and the exclusion of PlayStation users only means that these games will be available to fewer people post Microsoft's acquisitions, not more.

Microsoft have given us all a look behind the curtain. The state of their actual XBOX gaming business is dismal by their own legally binding submissions. Part of those submissions being the true state of GP / cloud etc. Some will prefer to reference Microsoft's PR because it paints a better picture. Despite that picture having zero bearing in reality.

Obviously, Heisenberg007 is very capable of referencing these legal facts, despite it being uncomfortable for some.

Personally, if someone wants to debate a legal fact, I think it's best to disengage. And let them live blissfully in the most recent PR statement.

 

[3liteDragon]

CMA extends deadline for Microsoft/Activision Blizzard investigation

Sign up for the GI Daily here to get the biggest news straight to your inbox The Competition and Markets Authority has …

www.gamesindustry.biz

 

[Riky]

What barrier? 30 million people already have the hardware, which will almost double by the end of the year, while only 25 million have subscribed to XGP.

Even if a Bethesda Xbox exclusive game releases today on Gamepass, it'll launch on a smaller userbase because the excluded group (PlayStation) is bigger in size than Gamepass.

If Bethesda was not acquired and released Starfield on all platforms, more people would have access to it. This goes directly against what Microsoft claims.

The game doesn't just release on Gamepass though and you know this.
Let's take Starfield as an example, it's a next gen only game so who would have access to this game on launch day.

If Sony owned it then 30 million PS5 owners.

Now Microsoft owns it,

20 million plus Series Console owners
55 million Xbox One owners
30 million plus Steam users
Millions of other PC owners
Billions of Mobile phone and tablet owners.

 

[pasterpl]

Brazil and Chile as ultimate battlegrounds, feels like MGS4 with console warriors PMC’s fighting the big powers proxy wars .

You can laugh as much as you want but it was Sony that was making gamepass to be this juggernaut, not Brazil or chile. Sony put forward a case saying how powerful gamepass is.

 

[pasterpl]

What barrier? 30 million people already have the hardware, which will almost double by the end of the year, while only 25 million have subscribed to XGP.

Even if a Bethesda Xbox exclusive game releases today on Gamepass, it'll launch on a smaller userbase because the excluded group (PlayStation) is bigger in size than Gamepass.

If Bethesda was not acquired and released Starfield on all platforms, more people would have access to it. This goes directly against what Microsoft claims.

Ok let’s take Starfield as an example, next gen only, it will launch on Xbox and pc day one (never would have happen if it would be Sony first party), then you have got all players that have Xbox one (they can access the game via cloud), plus all players that cane access this game via browser streaming on their 10 year old laptops, and mobile gamers that will be able to play via cloud app or mobile browser. This potential player pool is much higher than 30m playstation players. We discussing hypotheticals here, as we don’t know is current GP subscriber number, we don’t know if and how much it will go up with starfield launch - will the game become a gamepass system seller with low barrier to entry for otherwise excluded users who cannot afford next gen consoles etc.

You making a big assumption about playstation 5 sales reaching 60 million by the end of 2023, so I can make assumption that starfield, redfall, stalker2, ark2, forza will get gamepass subscribers to 100 millions next year - both can play this game.

 

[Bumblebeetuna]

The game doesn't just release on Gamepass though and you know this.
Let's take Starfield as an example, it's a next gen only game so who would have access to this game on launch day.

If Sony owned it then 30 million PS5 owners.

Now Microsoft owns it,

20 million plus Series Console owners
55 million Xbox One owners
30 million plus Steam users
Millions of other PC owners
Billions of Mobile phone and tablet owners.

Not to mention, the point of these acquisitions is to grow the Xbox and GamePass audiences. Whatever the GamePass install base is right now, it’ll grow when ABK stuff starts getting added, not to mention some of the first party stuff they are already working on.

 

[Three]

Ok let’s take Starfield as an example, next gen only, it will launch on Xbox and pc day one (never would have happen if it would be Sony first party), then you have got all players that have Xbox one (they can access the game via cloud), plus all players that cane access this game via browser streaming on their 10 year old laptops, and mobile gamers that will be able to play via cloud app or mobile browser. This potential player pool is much higher than 30m playstation players.

You're confused about what people are saying. People are comparing a third party game remaining third party and releasing on all platforms vs removing PS and adding cloud/gamepass. MS themselves are arguing in court that these potential users on cloud is not significant and that people wouldn't want to play via streaming.

 

[reksveks]

CMA teasing us ....

Hope we get more market participants responses soon

 

[feynoob]

http://[URL]https://www.gamesindust...r-microsoft-activision-blizzard-investigation

[/URL]

Shit. Now more useless arguments during these periods.
Why .

 

[Ozriel]

If Bethesda was not acquired and released Starfield on all platforms, more people would have access to it. This goes directly against what Microsoft claims.

Not if you factor in XCloud, though.

 

[Punished Miku]

You're confused about what people are saying. People are comparing a third party game remaining third party and releasing on all platforms vs removing PS and adding cloud/gamepass. MS themselves are arguing in court that these potential users on cloud is not significant and that people wouldn't want to play via streaming.

The Blockbuster video argument. MS will argue that they're trying to innovate, help grow gaming and establish a new distribution model, and that it will be much cheaper for the consumer without need for a console or a game purchase. They can cite Netflix transitioning from DVD to cloud, which grew by a multiple of 7 or more.

 

[Banjo64]

http://[URL]https://www.gamesindust...r-microsoft-activision-blizzard-investigation

[/URL]

Oh for fuck’s sake

 

[Banjo64]

The game doesn't just release on Gamepass though and you know this.
Let's take Starfield as an example, it's a next gen only game so who would have access to this game on launch day.

If Sony owned it then 30 million PS5 owners.

Now Microsoft owns it,

20 million plus Series Console owners
55 million Xbox One owners
30 million plus Steam users
Millions of other PC owners
Billions of Mobile phone and tablet owners.

So basically they’ve made it available to Steam as a separate platform instead of PS - everything else you’ve listed is just being inside the Xbox walled garden.

 

[Ozriel]

Microsoft have given us all a look behind the curtain. The state of their actual XBOX gaming business is dismal by their own legally binding submissions. Part of those submissions being the true state of GP / cloud etc. Some will prefer to reference Microsoft's PR because it paints a better picture. Despite that picture having zero bearing in reality.

Obviously, Heisenberg007 is very capable of referencing these legal facts, despite it being uncomfortable for some.

Personally, if someone wants to debate a legal fact, I think it's best to disengage. And let them live blissfully in the most recent PR statement.

When did Microsoft claim Gamepass or their entire gaming business was in a ‘dismal’ state?

 

[Ozriel]

So basically they’ve made it available to Steam as a separate platform instead of PS - everything else you’ve listed is just being inside the Xbox walled garden.

Pre-acquisition, the game wasn’t going to be on Cloud services for streaming, that’s for sure.

 

[kuncol02]

30 million plus Steam users

120 milion Steam monthly active users. there was 30 milion CONCURENT (logged in same moment) users.