Lionel Richie
Member
Don't shoot that shot, look at the time. Pass it to KCP, force Bam to nudge towards him and dump to AD for whatever the fuck he can get.
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Don't shoot that shot, look at the time. Pass it to KCP, force Bam to nudge towards him and dump to AD for whatever the fuck he can get.
Men_in_Boxes
Snake Oil Salesman
Lionel Richie
Member
To be fair, Markieff had a better plan than Lebron did. Dump it to AD. Is he open? No? Fuck it, do it anyway. Passing to Green was a mistake unless it was part of a bigger action.
T
Three Jackdaws
Unconfirmed Member
What an embarrassing end to the game for the Lakers, DG bricked a wide open 3, at least have the decency to kick it out to KCP who's a more reliable 3 point shooter. Morris rebound and turnover was also horrible, bot KCP and Lebron were waiting for a wide open shot. Abysmal
Men_in_Boxes
Snake Oil Salesman
I'll take a wide open shot from a career .400 3 pt shooter over throwing it into the stands any day.
Lionel Richie
Member
Call them by their names and see if your point still holds true. Let me rework it for you:
"I'll take a wide open shot from DANNY GREEN over dumping into ANTHONY DAVIS any day."
Men_in_Boxes
Snake Oil Salesman
Danny Green is a career 40% guy. That percentage takes a big leap when the closest defender is 12 feet away.
No one dumped it into Anthony Davis. Markeif threw it at a 48 inch Vizio on a Zoom call.
Lionel Richie
Member
Danny Green is still Danny Green. That's an idiotic move to end the game. It has to go to Lebron or AD. Lebron had an option to try a bounce pass to AD and that would have led to a much higher percentage shot than fucking Danny Green from the top of the arc.
MJ would not accept that play. That's why he's 6-0 and Lebron is soon to be 4-5 thanks to playing against an injury depleted team. Delonte West also fucked his mom.
Men_in_Boxes
Snake Oil Salesman
Except when John Paxson (career 35% 3pt shooter) won game 6 in the Finals for MJ.
And all the other times MJs lack of assists, rebounds, defense and efficiency failed to get his team to those spots.
Hinedorf
Banned
So frustrated right now I don't even know who to blame. LeBron played the best shooting game of his entire career wasted on blown defenses and 3 point protection. Lakers bench shit the bed and they lost by 1, what are the chances that happens for 2 more games.
Is AD hurt or isn't he, fucking superstar and superstar liability
Is AD hurt or isn't he, fucking superstar and superstar liability
Lionel Richie
Member
Paxson was at that time a better player than Danny Green is right now. And that's not really comparable because MJ didn't have an ANTHONY DAVIS waiting around the paint area.
And besides, what "spots"? MJ retired from basketball and lost effectively 2 seasons. He also had less time in the NBA because he didn't jump straight from HS, he won it all in college as well HITTING THE LAST SHOT no less. No matter how hard you want it to be real friend, his accolades are far, FAR bigger than those of the franchise hopping BITCH that Lebron James fucking is.
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bender
What time is it?
Lionel Richie
Member
The last time the James family saw a hand in the ass action that hard was when Delonte West banged Lemom like a man on a mission.
bender
What time is it?
There is a reason you name you fantasy team Day-To-Davis when you draft the Brow. He's fucking great but I don't think he'll ever chip with him being the only superstar on a team.
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Men_in_Boxes
Snake Oil Salesman
And yet, LeBrons Finals performance at age 35 is a masterclass compared to MJs Finals performances against the Sonics (age 32) and Jazz (age 34).
Teammates matter.
Men_in_Boxes
Snake Oil Salesman
Great shot. Pretty pedestrian Finals performance though.
Lionel Richie
Member
Put those Bulls around Lebron and you'd have zoomers asking to get him more help and excusing away his substandard Finals record.
bender
What time is it?
Agreed. Won the game to give him his 2nd threepeat, 6rh Finals MVP and put his career at 6-0 in the finals. Anyone can do that.
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Men_in_Boxes
Snake Oil Salesman
In 1994 (during Jordans first retirement), the Bulls won 55 games, their defensive efficiency improved, and Scottie Pippen finished 3rd in MVP voting.
Imagine a 28 year old LeBron getting added to a 55 win roster. They ain't getting ousted in the 2nd round I promise you that.
Men_in_Boxes
Snake Oil Salesman
Player performance vs team success.
Lionel Richie
Member
Their offensive efficiency tanked from 2nd to 14th and they beat an unremarkable Cavs team missing their best player. No need for coulda, woulda, shoulda with MJ though, he's the one with a 6-0 record. He doesn't need narratives to flourish his case for GOAT.
bender
What time is it?
Men_in_Boxes
Snake Oil Salesman
55 wins is 55 wins.
If only basketball scouts, on any level, anywhere on planet Earth, gauged a players value by the number of titles their teams have won.
Admittedly, the crux of your argument would have went over real well at my 4th grade lunch table.
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bender
What time is it?
2019 was a great year.
Lionel Richie
Member
I feel like you're misunderstanding the crux of my argument. Let me clear out some confusion. I'm not arguing whether Lebron is a good player or not, that's a given. He's among the best to ever do it. And while I'm focusing on the chips MJ has won, I do so because it's downright asinine to compare raw numbers between players who played in different eras, under different rules and in different circumstances. It's just a different game. So you have two guys that relative to their peers posted otherworldly numbers for a long time. So how can you pick which was better? Any objective metric gets thrown out of the window, so you have to go for more elusive parameters. Which guy dominated the league harder? And there's nothing, absolutely nothing you could tell me that could convince me it was Lebron. The Bulls rosters were really good, but so were the Heat, the Cavs and now the Lakers. All things considered, MJ was just more successful, not to mention the cultural impact he had as a competitive figure.
Lebron can't match that. Which is not a knock on him, he's still pretty good. But he's top 5 good, not GOAT good. Like I said, there are no objective parameters in this conversation, so if you disagree it's fine and shit.
Men_in_Boxes
Snake Oil Salesman
Here's where your argument completely falls apart.
"The Bulls rosters were really good, but so were the Heat, the Cavs and now the Lakers."
You're purposely conflating both players rosters to shift focus to team success. As if MJ and LeBron played with white IRobot replacement level players.
Instead, we know for a fact that LeBron played on inferior rosters throughout his career. LeBron the GM doesn't get high marks in my book (either does MJ the GM).
We know LeBron's first 7 years in the league resembled that of Sisyphus. No one rightly claims he had a quality roster around him at the time.
We know that the Heat were 9-9 without LeBron during his Miami years. And we know the Heat were a sub .500 team when LeBron left to join the Cavs with Wade, Bosh, and Dragic leading the way.
Miami Record Without Lebron James 2010-11 To 2013-14 | StatMuse
The Miami Heat had a 9-9 record without LeBron James between the 2010-11 and 2013-14 seasons.
Additionally, we know the Cavs were a trainwreck without LeBron during his second tenure in Cleveland.
Cavaliers Record Without Lebron James 2014-15 To 2017-18 | StatMuse
The Cleveland Cavaliers had a 4-23 record without LeBron James between the 2014-15 and 2017-18 seasons.
The data just doesn't back up your assumption. Jordan played on stacked rosters. LeBron never did.
To put it in perspective, imagine plopping a 28 year old LeBron James, at the height of his powers, on this year's Boston Celtics (roughly had a 55 win pace) without removing a single asset. That Celtics team would run roughshod over the league.
But here's the thing, it wouldn't matter because team championships don't matter when it comes to assessing a players ability.
There's 240 available minutes (48 x 5 players) in an NBA game. LeBron and MJ averaged around 40 minutes per game, meaning their teammates absorbed 83 percent of the minutes. It's completely irrational to reward players for team championships when teammates play such an enormous role.
Moreover, last night the Lakers took 82 shots. LeBron scored 40 points on 21 shots with a truly bonkers 85% true shooting percentage. That means his teammates went 23/61.
LeBron didn't lose that game because he wasn't MJ. In fact, he played significantly better than MJ did in any his Sonics or Jazz II Finals appearances. LeBron, the superior player, lost that game because his teammates were bad. MJ won games in which he played significantly worse than LBJ because his teammates were better.
In other words, players should be assessed based on their offensive and defensive abilities+impact. Not on how many rings they have.
Cutty Flam
Banned
I want the best players to shoot it too, and definitely not Danny Green, but you’ll never see a better ‘go-ahead’ shot to win the NBA Finals. That was wide open as can be. You HAVE to take that...
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Cutty Flam
Banned
Danny Green has shot 25% from three this playoffs............
He only shot 27% from three in the regular season. Players intentionally refuse to give him the ball if it can be avoided now I’ve seen happen. these last few games. He is an abysmal offensive player now. The look was wide open for him to make, but textbook LeBron James being passive and not making the correct decision in the end, which is living with the result of him shooting and either making it or missing it. The greatest player should be shooting over everyone if possible, you can rely on teammates too but I’m pretty sure LeBron could have found one of his spots and went for the win. In the end it was just a bad play
Men_in_Boxes
Snake Oil Salesman
Nah.
LeBrons job is to find the best shot on the court. A wide open Danny Green is a great shot. Markeif Morris shouldn't have thrown it at a Vizio TV. That Vizio hadn't scored a point all series.
And let's not forget, the Lakers don't even have a chance at the end if LeBron doesn't play like a GOAT through 4 quarters.
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Cutty Flam
Banned
Uh, yeah, he did have a quality roster? He reached the NBA Finals somehow...What do you have to discredit them? I have to hear this lmao
This means nothing. You are arguing that teams plummet when their best player(s) leave? This is known.A great player leaves and it is up to the rest to step up in his absence and do their best. I’d say 9/10 or more the team is going to fail compared to last year’s high mark. They’re not going to reach it. It takes so much to pull ahead in any given series. LeBron left, rebuilding years ensue. Simple as that. Their poor record without him is nothing new or anything that bolsters LeBron’s standing as an elite playerWe know that the Heat were 9-9 without LeBron during his Miami years. And we know the Heat were a sub .500 team when LeBron left to join the Cavs with Wade, Bosh, and Dragic leading the way.
Miami Record Without Lebron James 2010-11 To 2013-14 | StatMuse
The Miami Heat had a 9-9 record without LeBron James between the 2010-11 and 2013-14 seasons.www.statmuse.com
Additionally, we know the Cavs were a trainwreck without LeBron during his second tenure in Cleveland.
Cavaliers Record Without Lebron James 2014-15 To 2017-18 | StatMuse
The Cleveland Cavaliers had a 4-23 record without LeBron James between the 2014-15 and 2017-18 seasons.
They both did. Both Jordan and LeBron had stacked rosters. LeBron actually had vastly greater teammates than Jordan if you take some time to think about it. Jordan still accomplished more. Please try to see this point clearly, look at Jordan’s teams and look at LeBron’s teams
That’s make believe, pretending. This does not prove any point. I’m not going to imagine anything that didn’t happen in the NBA and try to use it to prove a point
Again, this is false. I responded to you about this topic laying out why championships can be a huge factor in assessing talent and you had nothing to say about it. You are outright saying that championships mean nothing when comparing elite players when they tell a hell of a lot about these legends of the game
The case with almost every team, sure
It’s true that the team entire and their play decides who wins and who loses in a series, but how does the team win without a fierce leader? You need 1-2 guys who are willing to play cutthroat basketball and kill their opponents on the floor, metaphorically speaking. A player like MJ attacked from every angle imaginable you can imagine and he did so without cease. He would collapse before he let up. That is not LeBron. LeBron cannot even find it in himself to take the final shots during closing time, final 2 minutes of the game. He and Jordan are separated by a mile in that regard. Jordan and Kobe both were superior closers. LeBron struggles during closing time and it’s a major factor that often has gotten in the way of him winning games that he had in the palm of his hand all throughout his career, hence one of the reasons he does not have as many rings as Jordan or Kobe despite having made many more opportunities than both MJ, Kobe
Stats don’t mean anything in a loss. LeBron is not parading over the fact that he shot well right now.Because he could not find a way to win with his teammates, he is back at the drawing board trying to find a way to win. His stats may be great, but he didn’t do enough to win. You have to know exactly what to do to win with your team to be a champion. There are no excuses. If LeBron needs 44 pts and to feed AD more to get his game rolling then that’s what he needs to do. Kobe shot 6/24 in a winning effort in game 7 versus the Celtics in 2010 and his game was far more spectacular than this last game by LeBron? Why is that? Because he operated on the floor to win. Kobe’s game and his teammates’ games all lead to a championship. That’s what LeBron needs to do. Doesn’t matter how, find a way
It should be assessed by a multitude of factors and areas. Championships included because they say a lot
Cutty Flam
Banned
His job is to win the game. He has such high shooting percentages, WHY NOT TAKE THE FINAL SHOT? Scared? I think so
MJ and Kobe would have taken that shot even if Phil drew up a different play. No doubt in my mind. You make your own legacy. You have to claim the trophy. Danny Green is the worst man to give it to on the floor. He has shot 25% from three this postseason. Any single player would have been a better option to shoot that shot, no matter how open he is. It’s no wonder he missed, he misses 75% of his threes in the playoffs
It’s the right shot but it’s the wrong player taking it
Men_in_Boxes
Snake Oil Salesman
Why let facts inform your opinion when tinted glasses are so nice...
There comes a point in a basketball debate when you're task is to inform the other person that Mo Williams, Zydrunus Ilgauskus, Anderson Verejao, and Larry Hughes were LeBron's best teammates. The idea that my job is to prove to you that those four players weren't very good number 2 and number 3 teammates has dampened my enthusiasm for such discussion with you.
So I'll just leave it at this. Michael Jordan was definitely an above average NBA player. We agree on that.
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Cutty Flam
Banned
Men_in_Boxes
, you can’t seem to address anything I talk about when it comes to basketball. You have to pick one point out of dozens to try to refute and you still fail. It’s alright though, you can quit on the discussion if you’d like, you aren’t conceding to any of the facts several posters have been throwing at you nonstop, so why even engage? You clearly only want to hear your fallacious arguments. Why engage with someone like you, who must twist things around to support your agenda? Frankly, it’s almost a waste of time even be talking ball with you if you can’t even see how Michael Jordan is a better player than LeBron James...Seems to be easy for 98% of the test here who love the gameNice little point though. 23 shots haha. I guess LeBron wins that little competition. Now can you explain to us what it means to close a game out and who were the best closers among those three? Here’s a hint: Closing is not only about the last shot
Still waiting to hear how such ‘trash’ players managed to reach the NBA Finals in 2007 in the first place btw
Have fun with the discussions. I’m not going to stop talking about basketball unless a mod wants me to step away from the threads. I came to this thread to talk ball with everyone. I’m still going to have fun and laugh at all the cringe bullshit arguments you come up with about basketball no matter what. You can’t even talk about the game in full, you have to run away just like LeBron from last night’s final shot
Lionel Richie
Member
KCP is even more open, I mean it's a corner 3 versus a top of the arc 3.
MJ was still a better player relative to his peers than Lebron. Lebron has nothing on MJ but the wishful thinking of his fans.
Men_in_Boxes
Snake Oil Salesman
MJ wasn't even the best player in his draft class.
LeBron has scoring efficiency, passing, rebounding, defense, versatility, and BBIQ over Jordan. He's a better offensive player than Jordan and a better defensive player than Jordan.
Jordan has individual scoring, foul shooting, luck and marketability over LeBron. He's an inferior offensive, as well as defensive player compared to LeBron.
Remember, Scottie Pippens Bulls record playing without Jordan is greater than Jordans Bulls record playing without Pippen.
The 1994 Bulls run exposed Jordan as the most overrated player in the game.
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Walter Matthau
Gold Member
Jordan
- 5× NBA Most Valuable Player (1988, 1991, 1992, 1996, 1998)
- NBA Defensive Player of the Year (1988)
- 9× NBA All-Defensive First Team (1988–1993, 1996–1998)
- 10× NBA scoring champion (1987–1993, 1996–1998)
- 3× NBA steals leader (1988, 1990, 1993)
- 4× NBA Most Valuable Player (2009, 2010, 2012, 2013)
- 5× NBA All-Defensive First Team (2009–2013)
- NBA scoring champion (2008)
- NBA assists leader (2020)
Jordan accomplished these individual achievements with a shorter career without jumping from team to team. He's a way better defensive player and scorer with less turnovers. I wouldn't argue that Lebron is the better passer.
Men_in_Boxes
Snake Oil Salesman
Jordan accomplished very little without Scottie Pippen. In fact, Pippen has a better winning percentage without Jordan, than Jordan does without Pippen. That's pretty illuminating.
Jordans defense was vastly overrated. When he first retired, the Bulls defense IMPROVED. When LeBron left the Heat, their defensive ranking plummeted 11 spots.
No case can be made that Jordan was a better defender than LeBron. LeBron can guard all five positions. We saw what he did to MVP Derrick Rose, Roy Hibbett, Kevin Garnett, and Jamal Murray. We also saw what how useless Jordan was against Hakeem, Karl Malone, and Shawn Kemp. Little man guard defense has always been vastly overrated in basketball. Defense is still, to this day, dominated by big men.
All the accolades you list are either the result of popularity contest which prove nothing, or fail to make a meaningful contribution to the conversation. For example, I've argued that MJ is the greatest individual scorer ever. I'd rather take the greatest offensive player ever because that's what matters.
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Romulus
Member
If my life depended on it, Jordan over Lebron all day every day. I still remember Lebron's "choke stare." Hell, if the Heat had a strong big man, the series would be over by now.
Lebron is just more physically gifted, taller, much bigger, yet still extremely fast and athletic. Jordan was tall and very lanky by comparison. And if Jordan had that sort of size, you're talking about a straight up bully. People literally get out of Lebron's way and he's considered kinda soft to be so big. imagine Jordan's post up game at 6'8 260lbs lmao. Dominance.
Lebron is just more physically gifted, taller, much bigger, yet still extremely fast and athletic. Jordan was tall and very lanky by comparison. And if Jordan had that sort of size, you're talking about a straight up bully. People literally get out of Lebron's way and he's considered kinda soft to be so big. imagine Jordan's post up game at 6'8 260lbs lmao. Dominance.
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Men_in_Boxes
Snake Oil Salesman
Michael Jordan was 1-6 in elimination games. A .142 winning percentage.
LeBron James is 14-9 in elimination games. A .608 winning percentage.
Lionel Richie
Member
Who was the best player in his draft class and why?
Romulus
Member
Making a comparison of 7 games vs 23 games?
I'm really wondering why you choose that, seems blatantly cherry-picked because the numbers are so far off. I could find any random player in the league that only played in one "elimination game" and was victorious, so he's literally 100% in elimination games. "Best player of all time!" So that just doesn't work to begin with.
And, I bet if anyone looked into the numbers more its because there's relevant info you're purposely leaving out. I wonder how many of those elimination games were when MJ had no help and was scoring 38+ ppg in the playoffs. At least one of them was when he came back from baseball, so there's that. In fact, MJ had the highest ppg in the playoffs of all time.
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Lakers' Anthony Davis listed as probable for Game 6 of NBA Finals after re-aggravating heel injury
Davis played 42 minutes in Game 5, but was hobbling at points after re-injuring his heel in the first quarter
www.cbssports.com
SpiceRacz
Member
You lost me here.
Hinedorf
Banned
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