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[DangerousDave]

wait this is REAL?

like 106k total?

impossible...

Shitty games usually sell bad.

There is a lot of competence in FPS/TPS. Any fps below 80 in Metacritics is doomed in the charts (Legendary, Darkest of Days, Damnation, Bionic Commando, etc). Any game over 85 sells a lot (Bioshock, CoD4, Batman, etc).

So, be happy that the users demands quality games.

 

[Slavik81]

you're missing something else though that is less obvious. developing on the wii takes a very different mind set and dare i say it very different talents.

Retro one of the most talented studios out there make a brilliant game like Prime 3, a follow up to a critically acclaimed series... and what happens? pretty little.

I was under the impression that Metroid Prime 3 sold better than 2. Your argument is also contrary to what the thought was on its sales at the time.

For instance, this dig article thought the sales were impressive.
http://digg.com/nintendo/Metroid_Prime_3_outsells_Bioshock_CVG

 

[x Power Pad Death Stomp x]

Fossil Fighters could have sold more than that. Nintendo doesn't have the stock on the shelves. I'm turning away people all day looking for the game for their kids and the weekends are non stop kids looking for it, lamenting that everywhere in the mall is sold out. We are lucky to get 2 to 4 copies in a week and they are gone.

Reverse of that for poor Wolfenstien. No pre orders, despite it having prominent marketing in store and a bonus tiem for doing so. The day it came out we got 2 copies for 360, 1 for Ps3, and 1 for PC. Sold out that day and didn't get a restock for a week and a half. By then, no one seemed to care and we onto the next release.

 

[speculawyer]

There is a lot of competence in FPS/TPS. Any fps below 80 in Metacritics is doomed in the charts (Legendary, Darkest of Days, Damnation, Bionic Commando, etc). Any game over 85 sells a lot (Bioshock, CoD4, Batman, etc).

So, be happy that the users demands quality games.

Indeed. The VG market has certainly created a lot of good quality out there because the gamers do reward quality with their money. And that is a very good thing compared to the movie biz where shit can make hundreds of millions and great movies can get no attention at all.

 

[AniHawk]

Indeed. The VG market has certainly created a lot of good quality out there because the gamers do reward quality with their money. And that is a very good thing compared to the movie biz where shit can make hundreds of millions and great movies can get no attention at all.

Transformers Revenge of the Fallen still sold 700k across all platforms.

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

Four publishers in the top 20 - Nintendo, EA, Square, and Activision.

Industry am healthy total.

 

[Son of Godzilla]

Transformers Revenge of the Fallen still sold 700k across all platforms.

ACCORDING TO MY ISSUE OF GAME INFORMER TRANSFORMERS IS A WONDERFULLY ADEQUATE GAME THAT DESERVED TO EARN A 6 OR 7. THOSE COUNT AS PASSING, STOP TROLLING.

Edit: Anyways straight up, those numbers are pathetic. I don't remember the last time a sub-100k game broke the top 10. The top 20 was below 50k? That's fucking horrible.

 

[Nirolak]

Edit: Nevermind, read that as 10.

 

[HK-47]

You could likely make a GOOD Wii Madden/Dead Space for less then half the cost of a PS360 version. With all the features, serious marketing, and at least better then XB1 graphics.

What is the basis for this assumption?

 

[HK-47]

I was under the impression that Metroid Prime 3 sold better than 2. Your argument is also contrary to what the thought was on its sales at the time.

For instance, this dig article thought the sales were impressive.
http://digg.com/nintendo/Metroid_Prime_3_outsells_Bioshock_CVG

Fourth best in series. Not sure if it ever got past II's 1.8 million.

 

[Fuzzy]

Fourth best in series. Not sure if it ever got past II's 1.8 million.

1.8 million for MP2? Not in the US.

 

[LegendofJoe]

Four publishers in the top 20 - Nintendo, EA, Square, and Activision.

Industry am healthy total.

This is terrible, I don't know where to begin.

 

[charlequin]

Is the weakness of the Wii's online infrastructure caused at least partially by its hardware?

I'm not qualified to say. It could be?

So the conclusion would be that Madden sales would not be indicative of sales of, say, FPSs?

That is my personal conclusion, yes.

Is Madden simply that popular?

Oh, I just remembered: you're British, aren't you?

Yes, Madden is simply that popular. :lol

 

[GrotesqueBeauty]

What is the basis for this assumption?

Without pretending to have specific statistics on hand, wasn't the cost of a typical big budget game last gen like 1/2 or even 1/3 of the development costs for a "comparable" HD experience this gen? One would assume that the increased detail that goes into all the assets means more man hours.

 

[vanguardian1]

Without pretending to have specific statistics on hand, wasn't the cost of a typical big budget game last gen like 1/2 or even 1/3 of the development costs for a "comparable" HD experience this gen? One would assume that the increased detail that goes into all the assets means more man hours.

The PS2 versions of Madden were treated far better than the Wii versions. Is that a better comparison?

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

Why did Wii Sports Resort sell more this month than last month?

Because it wasn't so frontloaded that its first 1-2 weeks outsold the next 4.

I thought the entire point for developing on Wii was that you could spend less money to make a game that Wii owners want versus however much it costs to make a game that 360/PS3/PC owners want.

Well, sure. Developing an original RE4-ish title will be cheaper than developing an original RE5-ish title.

:lol The vgwidgetz.com domain was purchased for that very reason.

Awesome.

If the DS and Wii are attractive enough to become the best selling consoles without their support, exactly where are they going to get their shoe in the door with all those owners content enough with what already exists?

Based on logic like this, though, wouldn't every single publisher have been worried about the PS2 because it would've been very popular even without them?

 

[boiled goose]

Four publishers in the top 20 - Nintendo, EA, Square, and Activision.

Industry am healthy total.

Sequels
Big Franchises
Tie-ins

That is all we are getting.
People this gen love the big blockbuster game model. Lets see what happens in the long run.
All that matters is hype and recognition.



Just started playing LittleKingsStory recently. And it is scary that is doesn't even seem like a remote possibility that such a high quality title will do well at retail.

 

[wazoo]

Sequels
Big Franchises
Tie-ins

That is all we are getting.
People this gen love the big blockbuster game model. Lets see what happens in the long run.
All that matters is hype and recognition.

.

The Top20 is quite frightening if you are a next gen publisher. 2 games for ps3, two big licences/heavy budgets and nothing else. 360 is just slightly better.

 

[thestopsign]

Edit: Anyways straight up, those numbers are pathetic. I don't remember the last time a sub-100k game broke the top 10. The top 20 was below 50k? That's fucking horrible.

It happened last month, so you must not have a very good memory. It also happened in April.

 

[Fredescu]

What is the basis for this assumption?

Pixels are, like, super expensive.

 

[wazoo]

There are tons of cartoony sports games on wii. Family fun footbal, backyard football, etc. madden is now part of those as supposed to offering the realistic , full fledged experience.

While the visual style might get them more sales in the lower age groups, it will cost them sales in the older age groups. wii owners are from all age groups and a significant portion are >35 years old. now these gamers have no option for a football game.

Marketing push is also a problem. Madden, I can not comment, I do not live in the US, but for FIFA (which is the Euro madden ), the Wii version has also the same approach. It may be good or bad, who knows, but as for marketing goes, all exposure is for the HD versions. Fifa 10 Wii was at Gamescon and almost nobody saw it, it was even not (or barely) talked at EA press conference. You can not succeed with this "I do it but I am ashamed" approach. I am pretty sure, what saved GST was the lack of HD versions puting a shadow on it, and it was pretty successfull in Europe at least.

There is room for light sports games (2M sales for Mario Strikers) but 1/ if you do not push it, nobody will know it, because on the cover box, it is still the same game outside 2/ you have to be proud of doing it (see Moore talk about problems with devs inside EA)

 

[Stumpokapow]

I'm not qualified to say. It could be?

More its ecology, but hardware is involved too.

Online FPSes need:
- Patches, to prevent exploits. No dice on Wii. Hardware.
- Patches, to balance things. No dice on Wii. Hardware.
- Storage, to store downloadable maps, user-made content, etc. No dice on Wii until recently, and even then exponentially more difficult to do than any other platform. Also, with reference to user generated content, I'm including stuff like Halo's forge system. Hardware and Nintendo's attitude.
- Persistent online identities, to track statistics. Especially this generation, where leveling up is now an accepted part of playing an FPS online. Look at Bungie.net or Steam's TF2 stats. Nintendo's attitude.
- Voice chat or easy text chat. Yes, yes, someone can post that Penny Arcade comic where the punch-line is "Chatty bitch, wanna talk? Get on IRC.", but ultimately people like to communicate with each other, whether it's "GG" or "I need a Medic" or shittalking the opposing team. Wii supports USB keyboards, but the ecology is such that no one would use them. Wii supports voice chat, but since they made it proprietary technology and bundled it with a game that's 180 degrees different than an FPS, we can count voice chat out as being relevant on the Wii. Hardware and Nintendo's attitude.
- Achievements. Yup, I went there. No, what the Conduit has does not cut it. Nintendo's attitude.
- Easy social networking. It needs to be easy to find and play friends. It needs to be possible for me to invite my friends to play a game. If my friend is playing Tiger Woods and I want to frag him, I need to be able to send him and invite, or at the very least he needs to be able to know that I'm playing an FPS and be able to think to join me. It needs to be easy to find a rematch--a separate "People met online" versus "Friends list" is useful for this. Hardware and Nintendo's attitude. Lol friends codes lol.
- It needs to be able to process at least 8-12 players, the physics of what they are doing, vehicles if the game lends itself to them, adequate draw distance, etc without lag. The Wii can probably do this in general, but this would be a hardware requirement.

... finally, it also needs a developer with significant experience in doing these things. The Conduit at its best moments felt like a well-crafted homage when in reality what's necessary is an industry-leader. B-tier FPSes flop on 360, PS3, and PC all the time. Look at Wolfenstein. FPS modes in Dark Sector, Prey, and even recent stuff like Riddick are very underpopulated, because people really gravitate to the best. I would say part of the reason why these teams are not working on Wii is the aforementioned issues, and part of it is that resources-wise it's more feasible for them to do one PS360PC and outsource PS2Wii than it is to do both, and part of it is that Nintendo does not meaningfully reach out to these teams and the extent to which they care about western FPSes is that they're willing to highlight them when they've already been made.

I would put forward that on the Wii, if a game pulls off half these things it's because of painstaking effort by the developers and it's still a hacked up attempt. Mario Kart's friends channel certainly beats nothing, but it's not what I was talking about under Easy Social Networking.

So it's the hardware and it's Nintendo's atttitude and approach to things. The Wii's ecology does not encourage FPS development. (Before the hive gets mad at me about this one; if I'm wrong, why doesn't the Wii get top tier FPS development, and calling multinational corporations fanboys is going to be inherently less plausible than any argument I've made)

 

[LazerRanger]

Not sure if any one has brought this up but if you look at the launch aligned numbers of 360 and PS3 (34 weeks), combined they add up to amount PS2 had at the same time, sadly I'd written a better worded comment yesterday (and accidently switched off my PC before replying) but its very interesting if I'm remebering correctly :S (a bit ill).

 

[EDarkness]

I agree completely.
Madden 07 on wii was even considered by some to be the most fun version.

EA built upon each Tiger woods release. Slowly building up quality to the point they made the definitive version with 10.

With madden they have gone up in some areas, down in others, changed the branding and visuals drastically, delivered less features than other versions, etc.

TW makes sense of wii cause of realism. people looking for that experience for football on the wii now have no option.

There are tons of cartoony sports games on wii. Family fun footbal, backyard football, etc. madden is now part of those as supposed to offering the realistic , full fledged experience.

While the visual style might get them more sales in the lower age groups, it will cost them sales in the older age groups. wii owners are from all age groups and a significant portion are >35 years old. now these gamers have no option for a football game.

Well said. I've been saying this a while now, but EA has no idea what Wii owners want when it comes to football games. You'd think they would have gotten the hint with Madden 09. The people who play Madden are NOT grandmas. If they want to make a family version of Madden, then they need to find a new IP for that. The people who buy Madden every year WANT SIM FOOTBALL. Not this family stuff. EA had something going with Madden 07, but after that they just threw things out the window. In some way I'm glad this bombed. Sure the Wii isn't as powerful as the PS3 and 360, but if the PS2 can get good games of actual football, I don't see any reason why the Wii can't as well. Let's see if they try to reinvent the game next season, too....

 

[AdventureRacing]

Well, there's prestige involved as well; while it may be hard to put a number on it, that's a real value for the perception of your products, and thus for resumés if you work on them.

Just look at the film industry: there's plenty of demand for direct-to-video movies, their quality can be high, and lots of money is made by them. But all the best talent wants to work on theatrical films, even though they cost massively more and are riskier. It's because the prestige rewards are hugely greater.

This is understandable but surely if your company is one of the many that is struggling for profits you need to at least look at branching out, even if it's not your main focus.

 

[boiled goose]

Well said. I've been saying this a while now, but EA has no idea what Wii owners want when it comes to football games. You'd think they would have gotten the hint with Madden 09. The people who play Madden are NOT grandmas. If they want to make a family version of Madden, then they need to find a new IP for that. The people who buy Madden every year WANT SIM FOOTBALL. Not this family stuff. EA had something going with Madden 07, but after that they just threw things out the window. In some way I'm glad this bombed. Sure the Wii isn't as powerful as the PS3 and 360, but if the PS2 can get good games of actual football, I don't see any reason why the Wii can't as well. Let's see if they try to reinvent the game next season, too....

Do we know the LTD of Madden 09?

Wouldn't EA have gotten hint if 09<08 or if 09 not >>08 with the massive increase in wii userbase that year? Make it more casual, thats the answer.

This while tiger gets sales boosts as it gets more full featured, more realistic, and more complex controls each year.

The most important thing you mention though. no matter the reason, if you cant sell the biggest and arguably the only real football game of the year to the platform with the highest userbase in the US, you are clearly doing something wrong.

 

[vanguardian1]

The most important thing you mention though. no matter the reason, if you cant sell the biggest and arguably the only real football game of the year to the platform with the highest userbase in the US, you are clearly doing something wrong.

Haven't you noticed? It's the developers fault if it fails on Ps360, but it's the Wii's fault (or the demographics) if it fails on Nintendo's home console platform. I can't remember the last time an argument DIDN'T go in that direction....

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

Without pretending to have specific statistics on hand, wasn't the cost of a typical big budget game last gen like 1/2 or even 1/3 of the development costs for a "comparable" HD experience this gen? One would assume that the increased detail that goes into all the assets means more man hours.

The relative difference goes down considerably if you're talking the best of the best from last gen. I'll also not pretend to have specific numbers, but I was under the impression that some of the bigger titles from last gen (Halo 2, MGS3) had budgets from 10-15 million, with other games like Enter the Matrix, Final Fantasy 10-12, and GTA breaching the 30 million mark, all before marketing.

Once your budget has reached that plateau and you no longer have the luxury of recouping costs with a multiformat release (if your game is Wii exclusive), this suddenly becomes a very nerve-racking choice, especially given the uncertainty to how the market for your game will respond to motion controls.

You can of course make quality Wii games that barely make use of the Wiimote (MH3, SSBB, TvC, and Twilight Princess come to mind), but these experiences can easily be ported to (or in some cases, improved upon by utilizing)other platforms, which raises the question of why you would want them to be Wii exclusive at all.

Based on logic like this, though, wouldn't every single publisher have been worried about the PS2 because it would've been very popular even without them?

This is a silly comparison, because Sony's first party isn't/wasn't nearly strong enough to carry the PS2 to 120 million plus sales without Metal Gear, Final Fantasy, GTA, DMC, Tekken, and every sports game under the sun. If you made all of those franchises GCN/Xbox-only multiplats the PS2 would have been slaughtered.

 

[Stumpokapow]

Haven't you noticed? It's the developers fault if it fails on Ps360, but it's the Wii's fault (or the demographics) if it fails on Nintendo's home console platform. I can't remember the last time an argument DIDN'T go in that direction....

Regardless of whose fault it is, what's the net impact of developers / publishers believing that they'll succeed on PS3 / 360 and fail on Wii?

 

[AstroLad]

Regardless of whose fault it is, what's the net impact of developers / publishers believing that they'll succeed on PS3 / 360 and fail on Wii?

Becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Anyone who ever called The Secret bullshit can just look at third-party efforts this gen to see that there is some truth to it.

 

[DangerousDave]

Transformers Revenge of the Fallen still sold 700k across all platforms.

Of course, it's not a rule written in stone. Movie based games, games very advertised, licensed games... all this may affect the sales.

But in HD consoles, in the main generes, good games usually have good sells and bad games usually have bad sells.

 

[SapientWolf]

Haven't you noticed? It's the developers fault if it fails on Ps360, but it's the Wii's fault (or the demographics) if it fails on Nintendo's home console platform. I can't remember the last time an argument DIDN'T go in that direction....

People blamed the demographics for the poor sales of Viva Piñata and Banjo Kazooie N&B so that goes both ways.

 

[Majmun]

Huh, where's Metroid Prime Trilogy?

 

[HK-47]

1.8 million for MP2? Not in the US.

No, 1.8 for Metroid II worldwide.

 

[Sipowicz]

the new metroid looks really good. it could be more accessible as well to new people as it's 2D

 

[Flying_Phoenix]

There was a slight uptick in Wii sales due to WSR, I would assume WF+ will do the same. NSMB Wii will sell to core and casual, it's bonus is that it's coming during the holidays which sees large console sales regardless of games

Slight "uptick"? Didn't the Wii sell LESS than it did the previous month WSR did? Regardless the Wii still sold very poor in comparison to its usual sales and so far this trend hasn't been shaking. If the sequel to their biggest casual game doesn't move units how will a sequel to a lesser popular casual game? NSMB Wii could move units but who's to say that it won't sell mostly to a market that already got on the Wii boat with Mario Kart Wii (after all Mario Kart DS and New Super Mario Bros. both have the legs of a Goddess).

Other posters and I have always said that it was foolish that Nintendo didn't bother expanding their market and trying to grab new userbases instead of putting all of their eggs in one basket. Yet we kept getting hammered on with "how it's too risky" or "don't fix what isn't broken" arguments. Now that Nintendo is showing signs of slipping in Japan, North America, and most likely other parts of the world as well, hopefully conservative Nintendo fans could actually see the sense in the argument.

Is the weakness of the Wii's online infrastructure caused at least partially by its hardware?

No.

 

[elrechazado]

Huh, where's Metroid Prime Trilogy?

Right where rational people expected...dud.

 

[vanguardian1]

People blamed the demographics for the poor sales of Viva Piñata and Banjo Kazooie N&B so that goes both ways.

True, but how often does it get said for each, in comparing the platforms?

 

[Stumpokapow]

True, but how often does it get said for each, in comparing the platforms?

Again it really doesn't matter, because what is the net impact of people believing that games will fail on Wii because of demographics versus the net impact of people believing that games will fail on PS360 because of demographics?

 

[gerg]

Text.

It seems like a lot of the aspects you mentioned could, as I have said, been adopted by Nintendo at minimal cost and with minimal effect on their business strategy. (Unlike HD graphics, which would have run contrary to cheap, but profitable, hardware.)

So it's the hardware and it's Nintendo's atttitude and approach to things. The Wii's ecology does not encourage FPS development. (Before the hive gets mad at me about this one; if I'm wrong, why doesn't the Wii get top tier FPS development, and calling multinational corporations fanboys is going to be inherently less plausible than any argument I've made)

As I've said in the past, I agree that it's Nintendo's attitude, but not specifically in respect to online play, that drove third-party developers away from development on the Wii. The responsibility for the current situation regarding third-party development lies with both parties, but I find it hard to blame either one of them.

Although I'm not sure if you ever really disagreed with me on this.

 

[donny2112]

The 360 had sold 2.9m units in the year before the 360 launched.

"Magic ..."

Where's Donny with the results thread?

Results should be posted today.

No, 1.8 for Metroid II worldwide.

It really sold that much on GameBoy?

Spoiler

 

[liuelson]

The industry realized its sixth consecutive month-over-month decline, and while improved over the last several months, it's still a notable decline. The back four months of the year would have to be up 14% in aggregate for 2009 to come in flat in comparison to 2008 sales.

Is the video game industry a market-leading indicator (at least upward)? In other words, would a rise in the video game industry be a reliable predictor of the overall economy coming out of recession, or would the video game industry tend to improve at the same time or lagging behind the rest of the economy?

...no, looking at how people spend entertainment dollar isn't necessarily a good indicator of anything especially when you're seeing so many moves by industry players to get people to buy stuff all of the time leading to constant fluctuation with a lack of patterns signifying a trend.

Argument for video game industry as a leading indicator: recession resistant, people slow spending in video games last, video games are seen as good entertainment value, increase in spending would focus on those "good value" purchases first.

Argument for video game industry as a trailing indicator: recession resistant implies trailing indicator going into recession, people stop spending in other areas before video games, people will resume spending in those other areas before increasing spending in video games.

Why it matters: I understand there's a lot of short term fluctuation in sales, but thinking about m/m and y/y for the industry as a whole, if the video game industry tends to be a trailing indicator (my personal guess), then the continued overall industry decline in August does not necessarily mean bad things for the future, particularly this holiday season.

If, however, there's data to show that the video game industry actually tends to be last into a recession and first out (leading indicator coming out), then the continued decline in August means a general economic recovery may not come until after the holidays.

 

[WrathOfOtaibah]

A lot of hopeful people with the PS3.

Changing the design won't bring a lot of people out to get it. The price point will and most likely have going by the sales last month. It'd be interesting to see the weekly breakdowns, before and after the price drop.

PS3 better outsell the 360 in September. In the well of excuses Sony fans have been drawing from since the beginning, this is pretty much it. They have reached the bottom. If it doesn't move at this point, nothing will.

 

[Basileus777]

Well said. I've been saying this a while now, but EA has no idea what Wii owners want when it comes to football games. You'd think they would have gotten the hint with Madden 09. The people who play Madden are NOT grandmas. If they want to make a family version of Madden, then they need to find a new IP for that. The people who buy Madden every year WANT SIM FOOTBALL. Not this family stuff. EA had something going with Madden 07, but after that they just threw things out the window. In some way I'm glad this bombed. Sure the Wii isn't as powerful as the PS3 and 360, but if the PS2 can get good games of actual football, I don't see any reason why the Wii can't as well. Let's see if they try to reinvent the game next season, too....

EA hasn't made Madden into a good sim on any platform. The only way in which the Wii version is less of a sim is the graphical style.

 

[Massa]

Shitty games usually sell bad.

There is a lot of competence in FPS/TPS. Any fps below 80 in Metacritics is doomed in the charts (Legendary, Darkest of Days, Damnation, Bionic Commando, etc). Any game over 85 sells a lot (Bioshock, CoD4, Batman, etc).

So, be happy that the users demands quality games.

I think Activision totally dropping the marketing for that game after id was bought by Bethesda had a much bigger impact than the game's quality - which wasn't "shitty" at all.

 

[John Harker]

wait this is REAL?

like 106k total?

impossible...

Clearly, The Conduit is far superior. And it only took 1 SKU to beat it too!

 

[DangerousDave]

I think Activision totally dropping the marketing for that game after id was bought by Bethesda had a much bigger impact than the game's quality - which wasn't "shitty" at all.

73 of metascore in a FPS in 360 (it's competing in the big league) is shitty. The users have too many similar (and much better) games to choose.

 

[evilromero]

the new metroid looks really good. it could be more accessible as well to new people as it's 2D

WTF?

 

[Xeke]

WTF?

Other M seems to play on a mostly 2D plain.

 

[evilromero]

I hope not. Batman proved a third-person metroid is possible.