Support NeoGAF

[Stumpokapow]

FWIW since I've been name-called, here's a list of non-budgetware/non-shovelware third party Wii exclusives, or multiplatform games where the Wii version could conceivably be the one to get based on unique / exclusive features:

The Conduit 2 - February 2011
TrackMania Wii - February 2011

...

...




...

And the possibilities for distant support, titles to be localized, etc:
The Kore Gang - out in EU, no publisher in US, unlikely to come to US
Earth Seeker - Not announced for US release
Milestone Shooting Collection 2 - Not announced for US release
Inazuma Eleven Strikers - Not announced for US release.
Ikenie No Yoru (Balance board controller horror game by Marvelous) - Not announced for US release.
Dragon Quest Monster Battle Road - Not announced for US release
Dragon Quest X - 2011? 2012? Who knows.

The Grinder - I'll be very generous here. The current state of affairs is that we have a game that is supposed a multiplayer co-op horror FPS, that was Wii exclusive, then was PS360Wii, then was a Gauntlet style topdown game on the PS360 while remaining a multiplayer co-op horror FPS on the Wii. It's pretty generous of me to incude this here, since it's pretty clear no one has a clue what's going on with this.


Don't believe me? Check Amazon. Check GameFly. Check GameFAQs. Name a publisher and then check their release list. This is it. There's of course a handful of decent multiplatform titles (next up: You Don't Know Jack! <-- I'll be getting this for 360 on the grounds that I have 4 controllers for both Wii and 360 and the 360 version is, frankly, likely to be better and have a better chance at DLC support)

 

[TheOddOne]

Let's pretend this is Generic Game A. What's wrong with being annoyed that a sub-par generic game does well?

So your mad that people actually bought a game you don't like? And what makes you qualified to say whether something is sub-par? Its like a crazy person at a gamestore yelling a game is terrible and everybody buying it should feel ashamed of themselves.

 

[TacticalFox88]

So your mad that people actually bought a game you don't like? And what makes you qualified to say whether something is sub-par?

Anyone is qualified. That's why they call it "Opinion"

 

[Zoe]

So your mad that people actually bought a game you don't like? And what makes you qualified to say whether something is sub-par?

Annoyed. And there are industry-acknowledged measurements of quality, such as Metacritic.

 

[Stumpokapow]

So your mad that people actually bought a game you don't like? And what makes you qualified to say whether something is sub-par?

Okay.

Let's do this one step at a time:

1) Many posts in this thread are either reacting positively because a game they like "deserves" to do well and has, or negatively because either a game they don't like did well or a game they did like did poorly. There are very few people who are interested in sales numbers just for the sake of sales numbers, rather than as a corollary to their interest in having games they like made and games they dislike made. Now, obviously people that take this to extremes get laughed at. There are clearly lunatics posting on GAF who have total meltdowns, ala Muppet's Square Enix shot themselves in the foot posts. But we generally agree that a moderate expression of happiness or dissatisfaction at the reception a game has with the public is a sensible thing.

2) What makes someone qualified to say that something is sub-par is that they've either played it and feel it's sub-par (for example, I feel Too Human was sub par. I have finished it), or they've decided not to play it because things they've read or seen or heard about it warns them significantly enough to feel it's sub par without playing it (for example, I feel that Superman 64 was sub par. I have never played it). Or maybe they drew the "sub par" tag out of the hat.

I've played a few hours of Epic Mickey so far and I'm enjoying it a lot, but there have been a number of very well articulated criticisms about it and I've personally had a few frustrations, so it wouldn't surprise me at all if someone felt that the game, as released, was sub-par. Not the concept. Not the lead designer. Not because it's on the Wii. The final game, as released.

 

[Kenka]

The Stumpokapow post is...


...


...forget it. I don't have any word for it. Maybe what the fuck, but that isn't enough :-(

edit : the first on the page.

 

[TheOddOne]

Anyone is qualified. That's why they call it "Opinion"

Everybody is entitled to their opinion, I am not debating that. But why would anyone be annoyed at a game selling? It should be doomed because they think its sub-par?

 

[Mrbob]

Were most of Prologue's sales in Europe though? Man that's depressing. Sony's high selling franchises from last gen, don't have that selling power anymore.

GT is much more popular now in Europe than NA:

http://www.polyphony.co.jp/english/list.html

GT5 Prologue sold roughly two and half times as much in Europe as NA. GT4 sold over twice as much in Europe as NA.

 

[Zoe]

Everybody is entitled to their opinion, I am not debating that. But why would anyone be annoyed at a game selling? It should be doomed because they think its sub-par?

It shouldn't be doomed, but it shouldn't do great either because that sends the message that a sub-par game is all a developer has to settle for.

 

[KingDizzi]

How are these games different from Heavy Rain, MAG, NBA 2k11 etc. It's just an alternative control method, will people feel the need to "upgrade" for them?

Some people might want to play the games with move, it's the reason I got it. I can see many more people being interested in move to play Killzone 3 than say Heavy Rain for obvious reasons.

1.14 million copies of Gran Turismo 5 have been sold in the US and Canada thus far

Nice so shipment one almost done with, my 1.5 million lifetime prediction will happen for sure. WW it's going to pass 7-8 million but it thanks mostly to EU for that.

Mickey mouse being in Epic Mickey ensured the game was going to do gangbusters, while some weirdos were making out Mickey to not be big anymore because kids grew up on Drake and Josh it was clear Epic Mickey would sell very well. The drake and Josh comments were in the PAL threads though, there was some serious spin going around when it bombed.

 

[Stumpokapow]

Everybody is entitled to their opinion, I am not debating that. But why would anyone be annoyed at a game selling? It should be doomed because they think its sub-par?

In general, if things that are very well made sell well, we think that this will encourage companies to make sure their games are very well made. If games that are very poorly made do well, we think that this will give companies license to release sub-par stuff. Successful things tend to be imitated. Successful franchises tend to get sequels. Unsuccessful things are the reverse.

I think your root problem here is not that you don't understand that, it's that you disagree with respect to Epic Mickey. You should say that if that's what you mean.

 

[Sipowicz]

The software sales speak for themselves. Epic Mickey, Just Dance, Michael Jackson: The Experience, uDraw and Donkey Kong.

they do to us, they don't to developers and publishers. they will look at the sales of those games and find ways to dismiss them. alternatively they will try to ape those games with their own second rate, low budget products then complain when their shitty knockoffs dont sell as much.

it's the way of the world

 

[Penguin]

I've played a few hours of Epic Mickey so far and I'm enjoying it a lot, but there have been a number of very well articulated criticisms about it and I've personally had a few frustrations, so it wouldn't surprise me at all if someone felt that the game, as released, was sub-par. Not the concept. Not the lead designer. Not because it's on the Wii. The final game, as released.

Yeah to me, I'm happy Epic Mickey sold well because for all its problems, I think there is a gem of a game hidden beneath it.

They need to work on the camera BIG time. And perhaps not be so... gentle in letting the players... play the game without pointing out EVERY single thing.

 

[ViperVisor]

Looked through all of the thread.

Discussion is more amorphous with how and what numbers we get. Last few pages were the best.

GT5 is doing well enough. The issue is not it selling X million vs Y million. The issue is how the inertia of this great franchise was used.

 

[hatchx]

FWIW since I've been name-called, here's a list of non-budgetware/non-shovelware third party Wii exclusives, or multiplatform games where the Wii version could conceivably be the one to get based on unique / exclusive features:

The Conduit 2 - February 2011
TrackMania Wii - February 2011

...

...

Not sure I understand what you are trying to argue here, but you are forgetting Lost in Shadow and Mario Sports Mix. The former which actually looks pretty good, and the latter which will easily sell over 2 million copies worldwide.

 

[Kenka]

jvm, the rest of this thread is in your hands.

I doubt we'd get anything else before Gamasutra publishes its article ?

 

[Maxwell House]

WoW. Impressive MS....I work retail and the final 2 weeks of December we were pretty much sold out of all Xbox Hardware...local retailers were in the same boat and it was challenging to find Xbox Hardware in the final week b4 Xmas. I cant imagine how many more they would of sold if they had supply in retail like the PS3 did.

As for GT5...Ummm WOW. Never thought I would see that it would bomb as hard as it is. Dont get me wrong, the numbers are still good overall, but no where close to what Sony was expecting it to be.

Microsoft must be kicking themselves for missing out on so many holiday sales due to running out of units. You would think by now, in it's fifth year out, that MS would never be caught with any sort of supply problem at retail..pretty stupid on their part, honestly. They should have rebadged a ton of the japan market 360 units to america. Of course, that might have only amounted to like a hundred thousand units but that would be a hundred thousand more sales.

 

[Penguin]

Not sure I understand what you are trying to argue here, but you are forgetting Lost in Shadow and Mario Sports Mix. The former which actually looks pretty good, and the latter which will easily sell over 2 million copies worldwide.

Lost in Shadows is already out
Mario sports Mix is a Nintendo title.

 

[SapientWolf]

Everybody is entitled to their opinion, I am not debating that. But why would anyone be annoyed at a game selling? It should be doomed because they think its sub-par?

Having a positive or negative reaction to sales data is justifiable because today's purchases inform tomorrow's development. Games are not created in a vacuum.

 

[TheOddOne]

It shouldn't be doomed, but it shouldn't do great either because that sends the message that a sub-par game is all a developer has to settle for.

I don't think sales automatically means that the world accepts sub-par games. Maby I'm a little naïve, but I feel that if a sequel does come out they will adress some (maby all) of the faults. I can totally understand your point though, this could go in the wrong direction. Some publishers or developers tend to pump out the same stuff, without adressing the faults.

In general, if things that are very well made sell well, we think that this will encourage companies to make sure their games are very well made. If games that are very poorly made do well, we think that this will give companies license to release sub-par stuff. Successful things tend to be imitated. Successful franchises tend to get sequels. Unsuccessful things are the reverse.

I think your root problem here is not that you don't understand that, it's that you disagree with respect to Epic Mickey. You should say that if that's what you mean.

It not specific too Epic Mickey though, I'm talking about a broad spectrum. I understand the point about succesful things getting imitated, but I do think most of the imitated stuff try to find their own uniqueness.

 

[RurouniZel]

Lost in Shadows is already out
Mario sports Mix is a Nintendo title.

Can I add De Blob 2?

 

[[Nintex]]

Lost in Shadows is already out
Mario sports Mix is a Nintendo title.

Nintendo is (was?) going to release Zelda in March. At least that's what they told concerned retailers in Europe who were surprised that DKCR was the holiday title instead of the expected new Zelda. I expect an announcement at the conference in Amsterdam and NY as a surprise otherwise the game might've been delayed again.

 

[Stumpokapow]

I see MSM / Lost in Shadow are already dealt with.

Can I add De Blob 2?

No, because it's not exclusive and there's no information released so far to suggest that the Wii version is notably the one to get.

Not sure I understand what you are trying to argue here,

I'm not arguing anything. A poster specifically referenced that I compiled these sorts of lists before, and so I provided one now. You can take what you want from it and use it to argue a point about 3rd parties on the Wii in 2011.

 

[RurouniZel]

No, because it's not exclusive and there's no information released so far to suggest that the Wii version is notably the one to get.

Ah, didn't realize it wasn't exclusive. My bad.

 

[szaromir]

Microsoft must be kicking themselves for missing out on so many holiday sales due to running out of units. You would think by now, in it's fifth year out, that MS would never be caught with any sort of supply problem at retail..pretty stupid on their part, honestly. They should have rebadged a ton of the japan market 360 units to america. Of course, that might have only amounted to like a hundred thousand units but that would be a hundred thousand more sales.

I think they consider it regrettable but unavoidable. They possibly shipped 8M 360s worldwide in the last quarter, they couldn't have produced more units, what if the demand wasn't there? Maybe retail didn't want to order too many 360s before Christmas and after they ran out of stock it takes several weeks to ship new ones? Add a thousand different factors. It was unavoidable unless the demand was very modest.

 

[Penguin]

Nintendo is (was?) going to release Zelda in March. At least that's what they told concerned retailers in Europe who were surprised that DKCR was the holiday title instead of the expected new Zelda. I expect an announcement at the conference in Amsterdam and NY as a surprise otherwise the game might've been delayed again.

Yeah, I'm really expecting Zelda in May/June of this year, and maybe one minor Nintendo franchise in March/april to cover the spread. Then an announcement of some decent 1st party holiday titles at e3.

 

[Eternia]

It's not like these sales are so much lower than GT4, though.

Unit sales overall I suppose it did not, however, so far it had >15% decrease in sales while competing with apparently only one other big software release which was Black Ops, benefit of releasing during the holiday sales period, first new entry of the series on current hardware, and had close to the same number of days on sale as its predecessor. You would think that would at least raise some flags in the minds of some people. Even with the botched launch, Europe seemed to do fine and in certain regions it broke previous first day highs of the series by GT4.

I personally don't think it bombed or flopped in America but a huge IP continuing to trend downwards in two significant regions shouldn't be ignored or shrugged off with 'it still sold well enough'. Maybe it's too late to change the trend but that's something else entirely.

 

[Saint Gregory]

I see less "Epic Mickey doesn't count" and more people either reveling in or cursing the irony that Wii's first third-party success in ages is also an unexpectedly large critical disappointment.

I get what you're saying but it's still pretty ironic that in a month where there's 4 Wii exclusive 3rd party games showing up in a combined SKU top 10 list that you'd say this.

It also adds further nonsense to the widely held opinion from Wii-Age that it's actually really easy to sell traditional third party Wii games so long as they follow whatever arbitrary template best fits this month.

"Third party traditional Wii games can sell so long as they use a massively popular licence, are advertised really well, are produced by a PC development god and are unfinished and control like an early PSone platformer."

What? I can't speak for anyone else but all I've ever argued in the past is that if you're going to waste money making a game you may as well waste a little more advertising it so that people can recognize it amongst the sea of shovelware on the shelves at Walmart. Disney did that and surprise. . . their game sold. Maybe it was a fluke, but I doubt any other 3rd party is going to dive in to find out.

 

[TunaLover]

More significantly, in our view, the top two selling Kinect software titles outsold the top two Move titles by over 13:1."

Woah, I thought people was all over more precise Wiimotes.

 

[viciouskillersquirrel]

So any good graphs come out of this thread yet?

 

[antiquegamer]

Microsoft must be kicking themselves for missing out on so many holiday sales due to running out of units. You would think by now, in it's fifth year out, that MS would never be caught with any sort of supply problem at retail..pretty stupid on their part, honestly. They should have rebadged a ton of the japan market 360 units to america. Of course, that might have only amounted to like a hundred thousand units but that would be a hundred thousand more sales.

Well depends on how you feel about what MS PR said (ie if you think they are just blowing smoke), they did say they reroute production for Jan-Feb to cover December shortage. From observing local stores around me when I go out shopping, I did notice a lot of restock of the 250gb right before Christmas. I think biggest mistakes or miscalculation MS did, was that people actually opt for the 250gb version and not the 4gb.

I am thinking may be price is not as important this year for many as economy getting better and they feel more secure about their job and most "causual" always go for the "best" sku because they figure that will cover everything they need. (Not to mention many place the clerks often misinform, though you can't blame them with so many different sku about which one work with Kinect or can be on-line).

 

[Grampa Simpson]

So any good graphs come out of this thread yet?

Aren't they relegated to JVM on Monday's anymore?

 

[Zachack]

I don't think sales automatically means that the world accepts sub-par games. Maby I'm a little naïve, but I feel that if a sequel does come out they will adress some (maby all) of the faults. I can totally understand your point though, this could go in the wrong direction. Some publishers or developers tend to pump out the same stuff, without adressing the faults.

Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. I have a mixed view towards Spector because his glory days seem to be long, long behind him and I don't really think having a big success is going to turn this trend around (since I don't think DXIW was a sales failure). Also, I think the word "bit" was ignored when I said I was annoyed. I was a bit annoyed that CODWOW sold as well as it did a couple years ago, just as I was a bit annoyed that I spilled coffee on hand this morning as I walked back to my office and I was a bit annoyed that I got to work 15 minutes late.

 

[Grampa Simpson]

Side note, a graph made by Jokeropia some months ago:

Quoting for the new page. Sweet Evil Jesus!

 

[Kenka]

I must be reading this wrong.


Or maybe Sony did indeed lose all its treasure chests it gathered from 1994 to 2006 when the PlayStation 3 started to sink.

edit : there must be something wrong though : Nintendo has probably earned a lot more than 2 billions and something with the GB, the NES and the SNES or maybe even the N64 from 1983 onwards.

edit 2 : are the numbers inajusted to inflation ?

 

[antonz]

I must be reading this wrong.


Or maybe Sony did indeed lose all its treasure chests it gathered until 2006 when the PlayStation 3 started to sink.

No that is correct the PS3 erased all the earnings the PS1 and PS2 made. Its been a very costly Generation for Sony

 

[bigpumbaa]

Just Dance 2 is an interesting case. As is Epic Mickey. Critical acclaim is important to people who post on gaming forums. And we've controlled (and still control) the market for a long time.

But terms like "shovelware" mean nothing to most consumers. And was this generation goes on, "most consumers" will become more and more important (at least for Wii and Kinect titles).

I'd actually love to see what the average "national score" of an Epic Mickey and/or Just Dance 2 would be. I think they'd be much, much higher than even GAF would anticipate.

The fundamental rules of our little medium are changing, kiddos.

 

[Thunder Monkey]

FWIW since I've been name-called, here's a list of non-budgetware/non-shovelware third party Wii exclusives, or multiplatform games where the Wii version could conceivably be the one to get based on unique / exclusive features:

The Conduit 2 - February 2011
TrackMania Wii - February 2011

...

...




...

And the possibilities for distant support, titles to be localized, etc:
The Kore Gang - out in EU, no publisher in US, unlikely to come to US
Earth Seeker - Not announced for US release
Milestone Shooting Collection 2 - Not announced for US release
Inazuma Eleven Strikers - Not announced for US release.
Ikenie No Yoru (Balance board controller horror game by Marvelous) - Not announced for US release.
Dragon Quest Monster Battle Road - Not announced for US release
Dragon Quest X - 2011? 2012? Who knows.

The Grinder - I'll be very generous here. The current state of affairs is that we have a game that is supposed a multiplayer co-op horror FPS, that was Wii exclusive, then was PS360Wii, then was a Gauntlet style topdown game on the PS360 while remaining a multiplayer co-op horror FPS on the Wii. It's pretty generous of me to incude this here, since it's pretty clear no one has a clue what's going on with this.

Don't believe me? Check Amazon. Check GameFly. Check GameFAQs. Name a publisher and then check their release list. This is it. There's of course a handful of decent multiplatform titles (next up: You Don't Know Jack! <-- I'll be getting this for 360 on the grounds that I have 4 controllers for both Wii and 360 and the 360 version is, frankly, likely to be better and have a better chance at DLC support)

It's almost like they were just waiting for the market to dry up so they could pull support and declare themselves geniuses for fleeing a sinking ship.

 

[apana]

Yeah, I'm really expecting Zelda in May/June of this year, and maybe one minor Nintendo franchise in March/april to cover the spread. Then an announcement of some decent 1st party holiday titles at e3.

Zelda in Holdiays 2011, Nintendo has nothing else.

 

[antonz]

I must be reading this wrong.


Or maybe Sony did indeed lose all its treasure chests it gathered from 1994 to 2006 when the PlayStation 3 started to sink.

edit : there must be something wrong though : Nintendo has probably earned a lot more than 2 billions and something with the GB, the NES and the SNES or maybe even the N64 from 1983 onwards.

edit 2 : are the numbers inajusted to inflation ?

No adjustment for inflation I dont think. Just tracking numbers since then so yeah with inflation it probably skews higher for Nintendo. Either way they are an amazing company when it comes to finances. Even in their darkest years they did well financially

 

[boiled goose]

Just Dance 2 is an interesting case. As is Epic Mickey. Critical acclaim is important to people who post on gaming forums. And we've controlled (and still control) the market for a long time.

But terms like "shovelware" mean nothing to most consumers. And was this generation goes on, "most consumers" will become more and more important (at least for Wii and Kinect titles).

I'd actually love to see what the average "national score" of an Epic Mickey and/or Just Dance 2 would be. I think they'd be much, much higher than even GAF would anticipate.

The fundamental rules of our little medium are changing, kiddos.

Neither Just Dance nor Epic Mickey are shovelware.

Epic Mickey is a relatively high budget core game with a broad appealing mascot that got mediocre reviews ( and is probably a mediocre game)
Just dance is a casual dancing game that values qualities that core gamers dont. ( loose scoring, no particularly precise, etc.) but an overall fun game for most people.

No adjustment for inflation I dont think. Just tracking numbers since then so yeah with inflation it probably skews higher for Nintendo. Either way they are an amazing company when it comes to finances. Even in their darkest years they did well financially

like opiate commented before, both MS and Sony seem to care more about marketshare and control while nintendo seems to care more about profitability.

Nintendo could have definitely sacrificed money for marketshare with the Wii, but it would have probably cost them something. (more moneyhats, more aggressive advertising of non casual and third party games, pushing Wii firmware, etc)

 

[Lunchbox]

damn it, i wanted to make gt5 shortages jokes, but forgot the numbers were out today

 

[TunaLover]

Graphs normally are just a bunch of cold data, but this one is different, just look that beautifull curves, a work of art.

 

[Rainier]

Zelda in Holdiays 2011, Nintendo has announced nothing else.

Fixed.

Nintendo doesn't announce games years before they're finally released.

 

[Saint Gregory]

Fixed.

Nintendo doesn't announce games years before they're finally released.

Except for Zelda, which they really should stop announcing years before it's finally released.

 

[apana]

Fixed.

Nintendo doesn't announce games years before they're finally released.

Well care to tell me what that holiday 2011 game could be if it's not Zelda? We at least knew that Retro or Project Sora were working on something. People had speculated on Donkey Kong and Kic Icarus revivals also. Pikmin/Starfox/Diddy Kong Racing probably couldn't be a holiday game. Wii Relax is a definite possiblity but Nintendo would need to balance it with a "core" game.

 

[kame-sennin]

Just Dance 2 is an interesting case. As is Epic Mickey. Critical acclaim is important to people who post on gaming forums. And we've controlled (and still control) the market for a long time.

But terms like "shovelware" mean nothing to most consumers. And was this generation goes on, "most consumers" will become more and more important (at least for Wii and Kinect titles).

I'd actually love to see what the average "national score" of an Epic Mickey and/or Just Dance 2 would be. I think they'd be much, much higher than even GAF would anticipate.

The fundamental rules of our little medium are changing, kiddos.

Indeed. Whenever I hear a developer complain that it's difficult to design games for the Wii because metacritic scores often don't correlate with sales, I know that person doesn't understand the market or the industry at all.

 

[SuperBonk]

Indeed. Whenever I hear a developer complain that it's difficult to design games for the Wii because metacritic scores often don't correlate with sales, I know that person doesn't understand the market or the industry at all.

Wouldn't this mean that game critics also don't understand the market or the industry?

Did they ever?

 

[Dreams-Visions]

Graphs normally are just a bunch of cold data, but this one is different, just look that beautifull curves, a work of art.

if these were ski slopes, Nintendo would be a double black diamond.

 

[Penguin]

Zelda in Holdiays 2011, Nintendo has nothing else.

I don't know how to phrase this, but I think this thread shows Nintendo doesn't need Zelda as a holiday title. I mean when you think about it Donkey Kong Country probably wouldn't have been most people's ideal choice for a holiday title before the success of New Super Mario Bros wii.

Nintendo had a stellar holiday season without a title with Mario in it and without a title with the word Wii in it (what the hell happened to Wii Party anyhow)

I think Nintendo doesn't need to rely on Mario and Zelda as much as they did during the Cube era.