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[markatisu]

I suspect you might be a bit butthurt that you couldn't come here and troll Wii third party sales like you were hoping! But hey, at least you're not alone:

Wow Zachack is super butthurt by Epic Mickey's success lol

 

[apana]

I wonder what will happen to Kinect. I have an instinct it may see big decline because holidays are over and marketing dollars will run dry. Or will Microsoft up the marketing because it's selling so well right now?

 

[jman2050]

Lot of talk about PS3/Xbox360 price cuts but not so much about Wii. Why is that? IMHO a Wii price cut could do more damage to Sony and MS than they can hurt each other.

Because the Wii continues to exist in its own universe as far as sales go. Sony vs MS is an interesting competition to look at and to predict how it shakes out in the future. Sony vs MS vs Nintendo isn't interesting to talk about because there isn't a contest from the start.

I wonder what will happen to Kinect. I have an instinct it may see big decline because holidays are over and marketing dollars will run dry. Or will Microsoft up the marketing because it's selling so well right now?

It will probably continue selling well for a while yet but I still maintain that it will ultimately come down to Kinect being able to grow as a gaming platform, of which I'm adamant that it can't to any significant degree.

 

[GC|Simon]

I'm so happy to see Donkey Kong Country Returns and Disney Epic Mickey up there. In both cases, I didn't expect this, especially in Epic Mickey's case. This shows: With a good name (Mickey), a good developer (Warren Spector / Junction Point) and a little bit marketing you can do a millionseller on Wii. It will break through 2m worldwide very soon (or maybe it already did). Disney made money with it.

 

[metareferential]

I wonder what will happen to Kinect. I have an instinct it may see big decline because holidays are over and marketing dollars will run dry. Or will Microsoft up the marketing because it's selling so well right now?

All of this assuming that those 500 M dollars were spent for the holiday season.

Which is wrong.

 

[Vinci]

I wonder what will happen to Kinect. I have an instinct it may see big decline because holidays are over and marketing dollars will run dry. Or will Microsoft up the marketing because it's selling so well right now?

Microsoft is going to give it super juice and ride it into the sunset.

What, you honestly thought they'd like go, "Well that was fun! Next!" and move on to something else?

No. Kinect is going to get a ton of support from MS.

 

[apana]

Because the Wii continues to exist in its own universe as far as sales go. Sony vs MS is an interesting competition to look at and to predict how it shakes out in the future. Sony vs MS vs Nintendo isn't interesting to talk about because there isn't a contest from the start.

No. I can't believe we're back to this again.

 

[jman2050]

No. I can't believe we're back to this again.

I did not say "it's a seperate market" because that's stupid, if that's what you thought.

 

[apana]

Microsoft is going to give it super juice and ride it into the sunset.

What, you honestly thought they'd like go, "Well that was fun! Next!" and move on to something else?

No. Kinect is going to get a ton of support from MS.

Well they could be like, "hey guys, let's just profit instead of spending so much money. It will sell itself now that it's the hot item!!!".

 

[Vinci]

What was the PS2's best holiday month?

Well they could be like, "hey guys, let's just profit instead of spending so much money. It will sell itself now that it's the hot item!!!".

Where did I suggest they were going to spend a ridiculous sum of money on it? I'm saying they're going to very well support it. Why? Because it just made them relevant to a market that, until Kinect, barely knew their system existed.

 

[a Master Ninja]

Move was a horrible mistake on Sonys part IMO.

Not sure I agree with this. The Move hardware is very profitable, and adding Move support to their games is pretty trivial.

Making Move-only games has proven disastrous, but if they can shoehorn Move into ALL of their regular games then they won't be risking much.

 

[jman2050]

Not sure I agree with this. The Move hardware is very profitable, and adding Move support to their games is pretty trivial.

This is an incredibly naive statement.

 

[LosDaddie]

Of course now everyone is all "OF COURSE Kinect is selling well, it's the next step in the motion control market, OBVIOUSLY" but going by my memory very few actually believed that. And one to none honestly believed (believed enough to make a bet about it) that it would do THIS good.
.

Nah, most will point to the $500M MARKETING BUDGET as reason why Kinect is successful (so far).

 

[Beer Monkey]

adding Move support to their games is pretty trivial.

I wish the Dead Space 2 developers felt that way.

 

[Opus Angelorum]

...if they can shoehorn Move into ALL of their regular games then they won't be risking much.

I don't think shoehorning Move into 'regular' games is a good idea at all (see : sixaxis).

 

[a Master Ninja]

This is an incredibly naive statement.

It would be much cheaper/safer than developing Move-only games. Obviously GOOD Move implementation requires a little time and elbow grease, which games like NBA2K11 didn't get.

I don't think shoehorning Move into 'regular' games is a good idea at all (see : sixaxis).

Sixaxis wasn't usually optional.

As a gamer, I always think shoehorning is a bad idea. But for Sony, putting an optional control scheme in all their first party software makes some sense even if playing with a DS3 is the superior way to play.

 

[kswiston]

This is an incredibly naive statement.

Why? Nintendo and others didn't seem to have much trouble getting old gamecube titles to run using the wiimote. I doubt that those ports were particularly hard or expensive to make. And those were titles that were never meant to use a pointer/motion control.

If indie PC devs can get multiple input configurations (KB+M, Controller, ETC) in their games, I am sure that AAA Sony devs can do the same with move.

 

[Vinci]

Nah, most will point to the $500M MARKETING BUDGET as reason why Kinect is successful (so far).

People are buying the thing 'cause they like the concept, or they've tried it and enjoy playing with it. What threw me off earlier was not understanding how much people enjoyed using Kinect in games. Here's hoping MS can continue supporting it with good stuff, because I'd hate for people's support of the system to go unrewarded in the long-term.

 

[metareferential]

I don't think shoehorning Move into 'regular' games is a good idea at all (see : sixaxis).

There's a big difference: Move can replace standard controls.

And it is optional too.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Move could have been better - maybe not a sensation, but better - if Sony acted differently.

They were obviously treating it with trepidation, where they didn't want to put anything above the minimum amount of eggs in that basket. They needed to at least feign support for it with high quality Move-only games, but they refused, because Move was just an accessory and they wanted to sell to the main base that takes offense to motion controls.

But it's circular logic, because Move will never be anything more than just an accessory if people don't have a reason to buy it.

 

[Opus Angelorum]

There's a big difference: Move can replace standard controls.

And it is optional too.

Absolutely, but for it to work it has to be implemented properly at the beginning of development.

 

[Htown]

So... how'd Goldeneye do?

Not good, probably. the figure from last npd was what, 70k?

It was never going to be super huge, since the FPS market has pretty much abandoned the Wii at this point, but as I've said it didn't help that they released it literally ONE WEEK before Black Ops came out. The shooter fans that ARE on Wii likely went with Black Ops instead.

 

[metareferential]

Absolutely, but for it to work it has to be implemented properly at the beginning of development.

That's precisely the point.

I don't think Sony will have problems implementing it in upcoming first party titles - at least shooters seem to be the major focus for Move right now (Kz3, Socom 4, Resi3, Mag).

Whether third party developers will dedicate resources to the peripheral remains to be seen.

 

[Lonely1]

Not good, probably. the figure from last npd was what, 70k?

It was never going to be super huge, since the FPS market has pretty much abandoned the Wii at this point, but as I've said it didn't help that they released it literally ONE WEEK before Black Ops came out. The shooter fans that ARE on Wii likely went with Black Ops instead.

For what is worth. There's 20K plus people playing BO Wii constantly nowadays. Up from 5k at the launch week. And seems that Goldeneye sold More than BO wii at least in the UK.

 

[Celine]

I've noticed more people on my friends list playing Kinect Sports than any other Rare game this generation.

Anyone have the total US sales for Banjo-Kazooie: Nuts & Bolts and Viva Pinata: Trouble in Paradise?

LTD until January 2009 ( rounded to ten thousands ):
Banjo: Nuts & Bolts - 150k
Viva Pinata 2 - 80k

 

[kame-sennin]

how are they not in direct competition? they were both meant to expand their markets and take market from wii to further this generation and lay down the groundwork for the next. MS succeeded, sony not so much.

No, only Microsoft is interested in making inroads into the expanded audience. The Playstation Move is a defensive product, designed to protect Sony from loosing their core audience to the Wii or Kinect. That's why there has been so much focus on core move games. If Sony's core audience wants motion control, it most logical for them to buy a move. That also explains why the Move isn't selling anywhere near Kinect levels, the add-on is not meant to grow the audience for PS3.

Does Sony have the financial wiggle room to drop the price of the PS3 100 dollars? Sony made a grand total of 41 million dollars in their network services division in Q1 + Q2 of 2010 (Q3 data arrives later this month). They have just reached the point where they are treading water -- a 100 dollar price cut will almost assuredly drop them back down to losses again.

Let's say they cut the price of the PS3 by 100 dollars, and sell 10 Million units. That's a loss of revenue of 1 billion dollars. If they were going to earn a profit of, say, 500 million next year (not likely, but let's run with it), then a price cut would drop them to a 500 million dollar loss all by itself.

Sony has to stop bleeding at some point. I think the best they can do is a 50 dollar price drop and hope to maintain their economic stabilization. Recouping even a portion of those massive losses is likely out the window: Sony once again has to choose between falling further behind the competition or spending in order to keep up (they chose to spend last time. It cost a lot of money, but they kept up, at least with Microsoft).

They need to take whatever money they'd be willing to loose via a price cut and invest it in different software. Their current line-up simply doesn't have enough mainstream appeal to move the hardware. A price cut will cause a sales bump, but only mainstream software can fix the central problem.

 

[Nuclear Muffin]

So, anyone keeping track of Kinect sales? We know that they sold roughly 930,000 Kinect bundles this month and I'm sure that we got some rough numbers last month (but I can't really remember than well).

 

[perfectchaos007]

Turned upside down it says "BIBLE"

subliminal?

edit: I was beat of course, but I'm just now reading through this thread lol

 

[Opus Angelorum]

So, anyone keeping track of Kinect sales? We know that they sold roughly 930,000 Kinect bundles this month and I'm sure that we got some rough numbers last month (but I can't really remember than well).

1.37 Million Xbox 360s sold in November and half of them were Kinect bundles, so over 2 Million thus far.

 

[kswiston]

I like to point out that, while it's true the all three consoles are doing great sales for the position they are compared to the past, the current one is a generation where two out of three console have a shot of being top 3 worst loss-leader ever.

Spoiler

with the exception that's stupidly profitable

Do we know how much money the 360 has lost Microsoft to date? I know the $1 billion lost to the red ring fiasco didn't help matters, but I was under the impression that the 360 has been profitable for some time now. Sure, they won't make back the money they spent breaking into the market with the original xbox this gen, but is the 360 on its own still in the red?

As for the PS3, that was Sony's fault. Someone should have realized that selling a $600 console at a $200 loss, after spending billions on R&D, was not the wisest decision. But those mistakes were made very early on. Since then, they have done a decent job of turning things around. PS3s are finally selling for a profit, there has been healthy software growth. Sure, some things could have been handled better (GT5 launch, Move, SCEJ's software output in general), but after such a disastrous launch, things could be a lot worse than they are currently. December 2010 PS3 hardware sales are down 11% from last year, but they are still up 50% over December sales in 2007 and 2008. It's pretty clear that the slim redesign has had a lasting positive impact on baseline PS3 sales month to month.

Hopefully both console manufacturers take this gen as a lesson going forward. Focus less on raw power and flashy specs, and focus more on getting costs down (both on hardware and software development), improving on the strengths that each brand already has, and offering new experiences to draw in new consumers.

 

[Beer Monkey]

Do we know how much money the 360 has lost Microsoft to date? I know the $1 billion lost to the red ring fiasco didn't help matters, but I was under the impression that the 360 has been profitable for some time now. Sure, they won't make back the money they spent breaking into the market with the original xbox this gen, but is the 360 on its own still in the red?

Unfortunately it is impossible to tell because in the segmented financials, gaming is combined with money pits like Zune.

 

[Zoe]

Unfortunately it is impossible to tell because in the segmented financials, gaming is combined with money pits like Zune.

Isn't R&D also muddied up from the original Xbox?

 

[Nuclear Muffin]

1.37 Million Xbox 360s sold in November and half of them were Kinect bundles, so over 2 Million thus far.

So that's 1,615,000 in the US so far from bundles. Didn't we get some figures for Europe and standalone US Kinects last month as well?

 

[Jokeropia]

What was the PS2's best holiday month?

2.73m, December 2002.

Best NPD months:

1.) Wii Dec 2009: 3.81 million
2.) DS Dec 2009: 3.31 million
3.) DS Dec 2008: 3.04 million
4.) PS2 Dec 2002: 2.73 million
5.) DS Dec 2010: 2.5X million
6.) DS Dec 2007: 2.47 million
7.) Wii Dec 2010: 2.36 million
8.) GBA Dec 2003: 2.26 million
9.) Wii Dec 2008: 2.15 million
10.) GBA Dec 2002: 2.14 million
11.) GBA Dec 2004: 2.06 million
12.) Wii Nov 2008: 2.04 million

I think that's every number above 2 million.

 

[Parmenides]

Do we have opening numbers for previous GTs anywhere?

Yes.There's no need to worry;Gran Turismo 5 story is far from over (even in Japan).

US NPD Sales: February 2005

Top 10 By Units - Software
1 PS2 GRAN TURISMO 4 Sony $30,527,340 618,559
2 PS2 NBA STREET V3 Electronic Arts $10,424,910 212,773
3 PS2 GRAND THEFT: ANDREAS Take-Two Interactive $7,634,198 159,167
4 PS2 MVP BASEBALL 2005 Electroni Arts $4,031,346 134,726
5 GBA ZELDA: THE MINISH CAP Nintendo $3,768,164 123,736
6 XBX NBA STREET V3 Electronic Arts $5,731,482 117,251
7 PS2 MERCENARIES LucasArts $5,238,154 105,198
8 GCN RESIDENT EVIL 4 Capcom $5,205,004 103,455
9 PS2 CHAMPIONS:RETURN ARMS Sony $5,023,108 102,167
10 PS2 MADDEN NFL 2005 Electronic Arts $2,837,222 99,526

US NPD Sales: March 2005

1 PS2 GRAN TURISMO 4 Sony $ 26,165,740 532,219
2 PS2 MVP BASEBALL 2005 Electronic Arts $ 9,917,162 337,736
3 PS2 FIGHT NIGHT ROUND 2 Electronic Arts $ 12,891,970 261,974
4 PS2 DEVIL MAY CRY 3 Capcom $ 12,467,640 252,006
5 XBX SW: REPUBLIC COMMANDO LucasArts $ 10,644,190 214,923
6 PS2 GOD OF WAR Sony $ 10,612,730 214,028
7 XBX FIGHT NIGHT ROUND 2 Electronic Arts $ 9,902,274 201,638
8 XBX BROTHERS ARMS:HILL 30 Ubi Soft $ 8,670,007 186,542
9 XBXMVP BASEBALL 2005 Electronic Arts $ 5,456,600 185,589
10 XBX T.CLANCY:CHAOS THEORY Ubi Soft $ 8,157,217 163,766

NPD: US Console Top Ten 2005

1. Madden NFL 06 (PS2) - 2,900,000
2. Pokemon Emerald (GBA) - 1,700,000
3. Gran Turismo 4 (PS2) - 1,500,000
4. Madden NFL 06 (Xbox) - 1,200,000
5. NCAA Football 06 (PS2) - 1,100,000
6. Star Wars: Battlefront II (PS2) - 1,000,000
7. MVP Baseball 2005 (PS2) - 970,000
8. Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith (PS2) - 930,000
9. NBA Live 06 (PS2) - 820,000
10. LEGO Star Wars (PS2) - 800,000

Shipments (North America)

Gran Turismo 4  3,060,000

 

[Penguin]

So... how'd Goldeneye do?

Yeah curious what Kirby and Goldeneye are up to.

 

[Vinci]

2.73m, December 2002.

Best NPD months:

1.) Wii Dec 2009: 3.81 million
2.) DS Dec 2009: 3.31 million
3.) DS Dec 2008: 3.04 million
4.) PS2 Dec 2002: 2.73 million
5.) DS Dec 2010: 2.5X million
6.) DS Dec 2007: 2.47 million
7.) Wii Dec 2010: 2.36 million
8.) GBA Dec 2003: 2.26 million
9.) Wii Dec 2008: 2.15 million
10.) GBA Dec 2002: 2.14 million
11.) GBA Dec 2004: 2.06 million
12.) Wii Nov 2008: 2.04 million

I think that's every number above 2 million.

Well yes, I can see what all the Wii panic is about.

 

[szaromir]

Unfortunately it is impossible to tell because in the segmented financials, gaming is combined with money pits like Zune.

Yeah, 360 is most likely in the black by now (the division has lost $1.5B since 360's launch).

 

[kswiston]

Yes.There's no need to worry;Gran Turismo 5 story is far from over (even in Japan).

I was under the impression that Gran Turismo is one of those series that does very well once it hits greatest hits pricing.

shipments of prologue to North America are over 1M. What did that debut at?

 

[Pooya]

So that's 1,615,000 in the US so far from bundles. Didn't we get some figures for Europe and standalone US Kinects last month as well?

300,000 in France, nothing from anywhere else as far as I remember.
source:
http://lci.tf1.fr/high-tech/2011-01/avec-kinect-nous-avons-fait-mieux-que-la-wii-6216192.html

 

[FrankT]

Yeah, 360 is most likely in the black by now (the division has lost $1.5B since 360's launch).

Yea I was going to say there is $1.6B left on the books iirc. $1.5B, no matter. Regardless, at this rate I have a feeling they will clear the rest fairly quickly, which is great on the business side because they are going to milk the rest of this generation for all it's worth.

So, anyone keeping track of Kinect sales? We know that they sold roughly 930,000 Kinect bundles this month and I'm sure that we got some rough numbers last month (but I can't really remember than well).

I thought we got a rough estimate of 1.5M last month bundles and all, but likely wrong. Anyhow, if correct that would be 2.4M in the US without the stand alones for Dec.

 

[The Technomancer]

2.73m, December 2002.

Best NPD months:

1.) Wii Dec 2009: 3.81 million
2.) DS Dec 2009: 3.31 million
3.) DS Dec 2008: 3.04 million
4.) PS2 Dec 2002: 2.73 million
5.) DS Dec 2010: 2.5X million
6.) DS Dec 2007: 2.47 million
7.) Wii Dec 2010: 2.36 million
8.) GBA Dec 2003: 2.26 million
9.) Wii Dec 2008: 2.15 million
10.) GBA Dec 2002: 2.14 million
11.) GBA Dec 2004: 2.06 million
12.) Wii Nov 2008: 2.04 million

I think that's every number above 2 million.

Oh man, I remember the Dec 2009 NPD thread. So many good memories :lol

 

[Vinci]

Oh man, I remember the Dec 2009 NPD thread. So many good memories :lol

Yes. I came late to it, though, so I mostly just saw the aftermath.

 

[Jokeropia]

Yes.There's no need to worry;Gran Turismo 5 story is far from over (even in Japan).

 

[Psychotext]

Shipments (North America)

Gran Turismo 4  3,060,000

Related to this, do we know what the opening shipments were for GT3 and GT4? (Worldwide or US, both work for me) I tried searching for historical versions of PD's shipment page, but they don't go back anywhere near far enough.

 

[Brannon]

So Sony is going to cut the price of their consoles first this year?

Cool beans. Then I'll definitely wait until then to purchase a second PS3 for homebrew purposes. Thanks Sony!

 

[Celine]

Do we know how much money the 360 has lost Microsoft to date? I know the $1 billion lost to the red ring fiasco didn't help matters, but I was under the impression that the 360 has been profitable for some time now. Sure, they won't make back the money they spent breaking into the market with the original xbox this gen, but is the 360 on its own still in the red?

I believe Xbox 360 is still in red ( cumulative wise) but you are right recently they are turning some nice profits every quarter.

What I wanted to highlight is that comparing sales number with ( very ) old systems for a ranking isn't very telling because market conditions has changed remarkably.
For instance huge "investments" ( losses ) of billion(s) weren't found until recently for the obvious reason that any gaming company ( not named Nintendo ) would be bankrupt by them.
I recall that Sega downfall, still considered spectacular to this day, totaled losses for slightly less than a billion in early 2000.

So if someone says that sales number for a second or third place console are abnormally high compared to the past generations, I always think that the losses incurred by those two systems were abnormal ( historically speaking).

Side note, a graph made by Jokeropia some months ago:

 

[John Harker]

Turned upside down it says "BIBLE"

subliminal?

edit: I was beat of course, but I'm just now reading through this thread lol

okay okay, i didn't notice that it said bible when i used that particular image haha

 

[JaxJag]

I get the vibe from the sells data, or at least the software sells data, that the Move is going become the next EyeToy for Sony.

 

[Vinci]

Side note, a graph made by Jokeropia some months ago:

HOLY GOD