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[Sipowicz]

clashfan is a known troll, disregard him.

why, because he dared to suggest that some people might like asylum better than uncharted 2?

 

[chubigans]

I don't know how many of the big God of War fans have a PS3 already though. I thought the GoW collection was going to sell big because of those guys, but it did a lot less than I'd expected. Maybe those fans are still waiting?

I can honestly say they hardly shipped any out as far as my city goes. Four stores (Wal-Mart, Target, Hastings, Gamestop) didn't even carry it. One Gamestop across town got in a total of two copies. Lots of other GAFfers reported similar incidents.

For a port of a several-years-old game with virtually no advertising, it did really really well. I didn't think it had a chance at the top 20.

 

[grandjedi6]

MW2 is not a December release.

While I expect the drop to be pretty good, MW2 will sell less in December than it did in November. Maybe much less, maybe only a couple hundred thousand less, but it will drop.

Historically, Call of Duty games do just as well in December as they've done in November. Like, less than 100k difference between two months for each platform. Hell, the Modern Warfare PS3 increased sales between November and December back in '07.

 

[Metal Gear?!]

Since people were actually arguing about what constitutes "casual" (again) in relation to Modern Warfare 2 not very long ago, it is time to post this article again:

http://thegameprodigy.com/why-casual-doesnt-mean-easy/

“Casual” games have been all the rage in the games industry over the past few years. From the explosive growth of online games to the major First-Party support of the Wii, the “casual gamer” and the entire supposed market space has become a great buzzword and mainstay in game development. Entire divisions of large companies have cropped up solely around the idea of casual, and smaller companies and developers striking it rich in this wild west of an audience.

But seriously. What does “casual” really mean?

Of course anyone can point out games that are casual versus hardcore. Wii Sports and Farmville are casual games, sure. Call of Duty and World of Warcraft are not. But what does that actually signify? And if you’re going to base independent or corporate projects and future sales figures on these genres, doesn’t it make sense to understand what they are and how they work?

By using the Game Design Canvas, we can break down both casual and hardcore games and find out what really makes them tick. When we contrast them as you’ll see in a moment, there aren’t as many differences as one would assume. However, one major difference betrays a casual game as a casual game, and that one difference influences the game’s audience, the viable platforms, sales methods, everything. It is the difference that sets it apart from the hardcore titles and gives it its soul.



Common (and Dangerous) Misconceptions of “Casual”

There are many definitions that people have attempted and employed to understand what this casual hubbub is all about. Even worse, some teams have forged ahead on their own casual titles without an understanding of what it actually means, leading to more than a few unsuccessful titles, where neither the hardcore audience nor casual audience alike have any interest. Instead of realizing what makes a game fit for a casual audience, but rather just trying to emulate a hodgepodge of aspects of other casual titles, some developers have set themselves up for failure.

The following are the main misconceptions of what casual really means. While there is a shred of truth in all of them, they still manage to miss the mark. What we want is a bull’s eye of a definition that can guide our development decisions and help us understand our players.

Casual means easy. This is by far the biggest red herring that throws many developers off. After looking at many games like Wii Play, with their simple controls, easy levels of difficulty, and one sentence explanations, this is a quick conclusion to come to. Looking at the games, back at the astronomical sales figures, and back again, many bewildered industry pros conclude that it must be due to the fact that the games are very easy to understand

This is a step in the right direction, but it’s not the whole story. Making a game’s difficulty exceptionally easy does happen to have a high correlation with successful casual games, but being easy to play is a symptom of the real cause, not the cause itself.

Casual means family-friendly themes. Another go-to explanation for the casual phenomenon is that casual games are just games without all the blood and guts and violence of most other titles. They’re much brighter and happier, boasting child-like themes and whimsical environments. Instead of destruction, the games’ stories focus on healing and nurturing.

The genres of the games also appear to be different; eschewing medieval fantasy and science fiction, perhaps casual means that the games are more closely grounded in reality, such as golf or bowling. Wii Sports Resort and Wii Fit speak to this. Games that are closer to what a family might do together for fun must be what makes them casual, right?

Again, not exactly. This approach usually focuses too much on the game’s Aesthetic Layout. Like being easy, most casual games happen have simple graphics, but doesn’t define the difference between casual and hardcore. If you take a hardcore game and change the colors and the theme to be more family friendly, you aren’t going to have a game ready for casual audiences. The simple graphics are a result of the market that the game is targeting, not the cause.

Casual means…dumb! Some hardcore gamers (and even some gaming press) appear to have taken the definition of casual to mean “dumb”. They don’t understand for a moment why in the world anyone would want to play such games when right down the block at your local Gamestop you can pick up the gaming experience of the century in Modern Warfare 2 or Uncharted 2. Of course this is a conclusion one could only come to after a cursory examination, a failure to understand what’s really going on or why people could possibly be interested in something different.

The truth is that people are different, and that these hardcore players are not built and trained to enjoy casual video games. Ironically, this violent gut response to casual games actually hints at the real cause better than the first two reasons, because it is based on the player’s skills.

The Game Design Canvas Speaks!

Using the Game Design Canvas, we can analyze casual titles and contrast them to their hardcore counterparts. This analysis can help us determine exactly what casual is and what is causing all of these differences that we just discussed.

To start, let’s look at the Game Design Canvas for a popular AAA hardcore game in a well defined genre: Halo 3.



The five components here are pretty straightforward. The Core Experience of the Halo series is for the player to feel like they are a futuristic trooper in battle. For the multiplayer, which we’re focusing on here, the player should feel like they’re in a single battle against enemy soldiers, either alone or with a team. The Punishment and Reward Systems are classic to the first person shooter genre: kill another player and gain a point for your team, or be killed and have the opposing team earn a point off of your dead body. The Long Term Incentive in multiplayer, the goal that keeps the player going, is to win the entire match and, even longer term, to increase their rating so they can play better players. Finally, the setting is a sci-fi world in the future, filled with all of the characters and locations within the rich Halo universe.

Next, let’s compare it to similarly famous console casual game: Wii Sports, specifically Tennis.



Since the Core Experience of Wii Sports Tennis is to emulate a real tennis match as much as possible, the four components supporting that experience are almost identical to the real game of tennis. The P&R Systems dictate the unreturned shots give points, and as the player gains enough points to win games and sets, they win the match. The Long Term Incentive is to win the match and raise the player’s rating so that they can face stronger and stronger computer opponents. The Aesthetics are simple, representing a small tennis court with the player’s caricature plastered on their avatar.

Other than the Aesthetic Layout, the gameplay surrounding both of these titles, outlined in the Long Term Incentive and P&R Systems, are almost identical, eliminating them as candidates for the indicators of a casual versus a hardcore game. And we’ve already decided that it couldn’t simply be the artwork that makes a game casual, so what is it?

That’s right, it’s the difference in the top-left component: the Base Mechanics.

Base Mechanics as the Foundation of Casual vs. Hardcore



By far the most noticeable difference between these two games is their Base Mechanics. In Halo, the player is required to learn and perform a number of skills simultaneously:

Walking or moving (using the left joystick)
Turning or facing (using the right joystick)
Shooting firearms and weapons
Throwing or using special items such as grenades
Jumping when necessary
Ducking when necessary
At any given time, it is almost certain that the player is required to perform at least Mechanics one through three. Much of the time they are performing even more.

Compare this to Wii Sports Tennis, where the player is required to perform only one skill to play the game:

Swing the racquet (by swinging the Wii remote)
Wii Sports Tennis is a casual game because it requires that the player perform only one skill to interface with the game. Thus, almost anyone can pick up and enjoy the title immediately because the player can focus all of their energies into mastering that single skill. Even walking or moving the tennis player around, a given in almost every game, it handled by the computer so that the player doesn’t need to think about it. The realization of the Core Experience through the Base is entirely through the single action of swinging the racquet and making contact with the ball.

Mastering Skills, Playing Games

A Base Mechanic is a skill, an action with a goal that the player can perform. Skills take time to learn. Everything that you, me, and everyone else in life learned to do well, we first learned to do poorly. Humans can only learn one skill at a time, and only when a skill is mastered can another skill be taught.

Because players can only focus on learning one new skill at a time, that means that there is a barrier to entry for games that involve multiple Mechanics. Thus, casual games can defined as games that employ few Base Mechanics, whereas hardcore titles require multiple Base Mechanics. There’s no hard and fast rule for this, but I like to suggest 1-2 for casual titles. When you get to 4 or more then you’re entering hardcore territory.

As stated earlier when discussing misconceptions, games with few Base Mechanics tend to be easy. However, making an easy game does not make it a casual title. If you gave the player easier tasks in Halo 3, such as defeating a single enemy instead of dozens in succession, then it would still be a hardcore title. The tuning (how difficult the game is) may be easier, but the skills required of the player would be the same. Casual players would be able to succeed, but they would still have trouble in terms of the skills that the game was asking them to perform. On the other hand, players who had already mastered all six Mechanics required would likely be bored to tears from such a game.

Simplicity in Difficulty

At first glance, there appear to be some exceptions to this rule. For example, what about games that have a low number of Mechanics, but the games are tuned to be very hard?



Take for example the niche genre of bullet-hell games. I happen to be a huge fan of titles like these, but many of my friends have no interest in them because they have a tendency to make you pull your hair out. In these titles, the player is often a spaceship against a barrage of bullets. Often the entire screen is filled with deadly orbs that, if touched, will result in the player’s death. This game is certainly hardcore; while the shoot-em-up genre is one that encompasses new and mature players, bullet-hell games require that the player be a true guru of navigating tight spaces.

Thus, to make sense of how a bullet-hell game is a hardcore title, it makes sense to break up the seemingly single mechanic of avoiding bullets into their skills levels. Consider the following Base Mechanics:

Avoid a bullet
Avoid several bullets
Avoid many bullets
Navigate an entire screen of bullets
Etc…
When broken into more than one Base Mechanic, this genre, and others which are considered very difficult and unwelcoming, begins to make sense. Becoming more proficient at a skill is essentially the same as learning a new skill entirely. If someone can hit a ball in Wii Sports Tennis, that doesn’t mean that they can hit the ball to the backhand corner every time. The latter would be a more honed skill, built on top of what the player already learned. In this sense, the requirements of the game (the P&R Systems) demand that the player develop themselves, actually adding another Base Mechanic to the mix.

How Many Skills?

When designing a game for a particular audience, it’s helpful to be aware of what skills the audience already has, and thus, if the game is really casual or not. Casual does not mean easy; casual means the number of skills needed to play the game. If the audience has experience with platformers, then you can create additional Base Mechanics to your platformer to keep the game interesting, like the later Megaman X games on top of the original Megaman games. This allows for greater depth and length of to your games but at a price; you alienate players who don’t have a resume of experience with at least some of the Base Mechanics you require.

If you assume your audience has no experience and you want to appeal to as many people as possible (often the goal of a casual title), then you can focus on a single Mechanic, such as the breakout indie title Canabalt. Players are going to burn through these games quicker as they soon master the single skill presented to them, but you’ll have more players at your doorstep.

The trade-off is up to the developer, but being aware of how many Mechanics are asked of the player, whether developing a casual or a hardcore title, can make mastering the skill of creating a successful title much easier.

 

[Sohter.Nura]

Historically, Call of Duty games do just as well in December as they've done in November. Like, less than 100k difference between two months for each platform. Hell, the Modern Warfare PS3 increased sales between November and December back in '07.

Well, there's also the fact that MW2 november had the pre-order numbers included in it. I think the hype was so big that it ended up affecting the first month numbers compaired to other entries in the series, therefore it will have a huge drop-off.

 

[gafster1]

Lol. Return of the King.

 

[dimb]

Historically, Call of Duty games do just as well in December as they've done in November. Like, less than 100k difference between two months for each platform. Hell, the Modern Warfare PS3 increased sales between November and December back in '07.

Except Call of Duty became a big seller with the last title. Word of mouth perpetuated it in a way that can't affect MW2. Sales will be much more front loaded this time around with that in mind.

 

[Takao]

I'm really afraid to ask, but how bad did Jak & Daxter: The Lost Frontier do on PS2 and PSP? Sub 15k combined?

 

[xbhaskarx]

Lol november and black friday retail musings are always so useless.

Musings-GAF has let me down once again.

Anyone who even bothers to read those retail musings threads needs to realize that anecdotal evidence is useless so they can stop wasting time on such nonsense.

 

[AniHawk]

I'm really afraid to ask, but how bad did Jak & Daxter: The Lost Frontier do on PS2 and PSP? Sub 15k combined?

Jak and Daxter 2 did a little over 40k combined.

 

[TurtleSnatcher]

Any word on Borderlands? I see UC2 numbers and stuffs but it was higher then UC2 in NPD so I wonder how it finished.

 

[OldJadedGamer]

Any word on Borderlands? I see UC2 numbers and stuffs but it was higher then UC2 in NPD so I wonder how it finished.

Did I miss something and the UC2 numbers were posted?

 

[Basileus777]

Did I miss something and the UC2 numbers were posted?

I don't think we got anything other than it wasn't in the top 20.

 

[Why For?]

I'm just gonna say I hate the distinction between hardcore/casual games because it seems that the terms describe more how people play the game and not what the game is, but people use it to describe a game.

Bingo.

Mario Kart 64 is as hardcore as any of you guys want it to be. Game may have 'looked' Mario, but that mother was awesome.

 

[Johann]

Did I miss something and the UC2 numbers were posted?

We have a Pachter quote:

“I’m sure that the game will get a boost from winning the VGA’s Game of the Year, but it’s only sold 650,000 in the U.S. so far, which is really shocking given its review scores.”

http://www.criticalgamer.co.uk/2009/12/14/michael-pachter-–-uncharted-2-sales-lacklustre/

Since it sold 537K in October, that leaves about 113K US sales in November.

 

[Takao]

Jak and Daxter 2 did a little over 40k combined.

It's bad when I can say I'm pleasantly surprised something hit 40k in one month.

This one I don't expect an answer for, but I'll shoot for it anyways, how did DragonBall: Raging Blast (PS3/360), DragonBall: Revenge of King Piccolo (Wii), and DragonBall Z: Attack Of The Saiyans (DS) do?

 

[jay]

Since people were actually arguing about what constitutes "casual" (again) in relation to Modern Warfare 2 not very long ago, it is time to post this article again:

http://thegameprodigy.com/why-casual-doesnt-mean-easy/

That article ignores the historic definitions of these terms. I'd like an explanation of why certain games he would classify as core, like Halo or GTA, meet mass success with people who would not typically play many games. Traditionally these are called casual titles not because of specific properties of the games but because of the audiences they attract (which would of course have to do with properties of the game but it's easier to go the other way around).

It's a good article but using it as some kind of discussion stopper is odd. Does this guy work for Websters and have final say on definitions?

 

[Sagitario]

Any chance of approximate Vesperia and DotNW numbers?

 

[AniHawk]

It's bad when I can say I'm pleasantly surprised something hit 40k in one month.

This one I don't expect an answer for, but I'll shoot for it anyways, how did DragonBall: Raging Blast (PS3/360), DragonBall: Revenge of King Piccolo (Wii), and DragonBall Z: Attack Of The Saiyans (DS) do?

Extraction LTD > DBZ 360 > DBZ PS3 > DBZ DS > DB Wii

Symphonia 2 and Vesperia 360 are very very close. Both are over 130k.

 

[Sagitario]

Thanks for the update! I think that confirms the size of the Tales fanbase in USA ...

 

[Sadist]

Extraction LTD > DBZ 360 > DBZ PS3 > DBZ DS > DB Wii

Symphonia 2 and Vesperia 360 are very very close. Both are over 130k.

Damn :lol

The sales for the two Tales games improved like 30k +.

 

[Firestorm]

Extraction LTD > DBZ 360 > DBZ PS3 > DBZ DS > DB Wii

Symphonia 2 and Vesperia 360 are very very close. Both are over 130k.

Close isn't good enough for console wars. We need a greater than sign between them!

And yeah, that's pretty impressive. 100k at the end of last year I believe. 30% more over the course of this year.

 

[Firestorm]

That article ignores the historic definitions of these terms. I'd like an explanation of why certain games he would classify as core, like Halo or GTA, meet mass success with people who would not typically play many games. Traditionally these are called casual titles not because of specific properties of the games but because of the audiences they attract (which would of course have to do with properties of the game but it's easier to go the other way around).

It's a good article but using it as some kind of discussion stopper is odd. Does this guy work for Websters and have final say on definitions?

Here's my definition!

Casual: Easy to pick up, understand, and play. Often hard to master. This includes games like Bejeweled, Peggle, Farmville, and just about anything you find on AddictingGames or Facebook

Mainstream: High profile games with usually heavy marketing aimed at a broad audience. Usually not too hard to get into, but can be a barrier for those not accustomed to playing video games. Games here include Super Mario Galaxy, Call of Duty 72, Halo, and God of War.

Hardcore: Often hard to get into, complex game mechanics that are not understood at quick glance, require a deeper understanding of video games to play. Also a lot of exposure to video games to even find out about. This would include Demon's Souls, Anno, and any of the -sport- Manager games.

Feel free to tell me I'm wrong.

 

[Taurus]

Here's my definition!

Casual: Easy to pick up, understand, and play. Often hard to master. This includes games like Bejeweled, Peggle, Farmville, and just about anything you find on AddictingGames or Facebook

Mainstream: High profile games with usually heavy marketing aimed at a broad audience. Usually not too hard to get into, but can be a barrier for those not accustomed to playing video games. Games here include Super Mario Galaxy, Call of Duty 72, Halo, and God of War.

Hardcore: Often hard to get into, complex game mechanics that are not understood at quick glance, require a deeper understanding of video games to play. Also a lot of exposure to video games to even find out about. This would include Demon's Souls, Anno, and any of the -sport- Manager games.

Feel free to tell me I'm wrong.

I think you are pretty much spot on.

 

[markatisu]

Thanks for the update! I think that confirms the size of the Tales fanbase in USA ...

Yeah its the same 130k people :lol

Not surprising though, both games saw a $19.99 price tag several times in the last few months

http://www.criticalgamer.co.uk/2009/...es-lacklustre/

Since it sold 537K in October, that leaves about 113K US sales in November.

Ouch

 

[batbeg]

Jak and Daxter 2 did a little over 40k combined.

It's terrifying to think that I'm actually pleasantly surprised with this.

I'd hope there were a couple thousand who also got the digital copies, as I'm one of them.

All the same, goodbye to the Jak and Daxter franchise.

 

[The_lascar]

Extraction LTD > DBZ 360 > DBZ PS3 > DBZ DS > DB Wii

DB Wii LTD or only november ?

 

[Ultimo hombre]

Anyone got Forza 3 and Borderlands (360) numbers?

 

[legend166]

Did we ever get any numbers for Metroid Prime Trilogy?

 

[jay]

Here's my definition!

Casual: Easy to pick up, understand, and play. Often hard to master. This includes games like Bejeweled, Peggle, Farmville, and just about anything you find on AddictingGames or Facebook

Mainstream: High profile games with usually heavy marketing aimed at a broad audience. Usually not too hard to get into, but can be a barrier for those not accustomed to playing video games. Games here include Super Mario Galaxy, Call of Duty 72, Halo, and God of War.

Hardcore: Often hard to get into, complex game mechanics that are not understood at quick glance, require a deeper understanding of video games to play. Also a lot of exposure to video games to even find out about. This would include Demon's Souls, Anno, and any of the -sport- Manager games.

Feel free to tell me I'm wrong.

God, I'm so hardcore.

A distinction between casual and mainstream seems useful, good work.

And you're wrong.

 

[Nirolak]

Anyone got Forza 3 and Borderlands (360) numbers?

We know Borderlands 360 is over 100k from the official list data actually.

 

[Firestorm]

God, I'm so hardcore.

A distinction between casual and mainstream seems useful, good work.

And you're wrong.

no u

 

[commedieu]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1NpZxn860M

This has to be made into reaction gifs for future NPD please...

please gaf

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

Yeah its the same 130k people :lol

Not surprising though, both games saw a $19.99 price tag several times in the last few months



Ouch

If UC2 has any kind of Christmas presence (no pun intended), it should be around 800k by the end of the year. That level of sales at full price is very healthy for one territory, the panic button doesn't need to be pressed.

 

[elrechazado]

If UC2 has any kind of Christmas presence (no pun intended), it should be around 800k by the end of the year. That level of sales at full price is very healthy for one territory, the panic button doesn't need to be pressed.

for the highest rated game of the year?

 

[commedieu]

for the highest rated game of the year?

For some reason quite a few people get confused into thinking quality = sales. The logic falls apart in all other industries, but for some reason people are hung on sales meaning quality. Sales stats alone for gaming is generally an indication of popularity. Lady Gaga isn't better than many artists, yet.. makes sales, nothing at all to do with ratings or quality. Factor in 20-40million dollar ad campaigns, and its amazing you or anyone can come to the ratings/sales conclusion.

The game is a good one, but there are more people that would rather play MW2. Same could be applied to Forza3, being the definitive racer of our lifetime. Batman AA was also rated very high, as was Little Big Planet. All that was needed for UC2 was 2.5 million sales of UC, so its safe to imagine the alarms aren't going off in anywhere. Naughty Dog gets to go to sleep knowing that their best work is out, that people love it, and that they accomplished what no other devs have been able to do this gen with UC2. If they wanted just money, maybe they should invest into Wii/DS/Apple Games right?

 

[Takao]

The DragonBall games seriously did under 15k each for November? Gosh that's terribad. Does not bode well for the new publisher (Formerly Atari, now Namco Bandai). Yeesh.

they wanted just money, maybe they should invest into Wii/DS/Apple Games right?

For some reason I don't think Naughty Dog, a fully owned studio by Sony Computer Entertainment, has that option. :lol

 

[thestopsign]

for the highest rated game of the year?

Rephrase that to Sony's #1 holiday title this year, that is why the sales should be considered bad. The title was positioned as the hardware pusher for Sony this year, it obviously can't push hardware if it doesn't sell.

 

[markatisu]

If UC2 has any kind of Christmas presence (no pun intended), it should be around 800k by the end of the year. That level of sales at full price is very healthy for one territory, the panic button doesn't need to be pressed.

Well the game has already done more faster than its original, but still its sad it was so front loaded. I dont think I hit the panic button but going from 530 to 113 is ouch no matter how its spun

 

[elrechazado]

For some reason quite a few people get confused into thinking quality = sales. The logic falls apart in all other industries, but for some reason people are hung on sales meaning quality. Sales stats alone for gaming is generally an indication of popularity. Lady Gaga isn't better than many artists, yet.. makes sales, nothing at all to do with ratings or quality. Factor in 20-40million dollar ad campaigns, and its amazing you or anyone can come to the ratings/sales conclusion.

The game is a good one, but there are more people that would rather play MW2. Same could be applied to Forza3, being the definitive racer of our lifetime. Batman AA was also rated very high, as was Little Big Planet. All that was needed for UC2 was 2.5 million sales of UC, so its safe to imagine the alarms aren't going off in anywhere. Naughty Dog gets to go to sleep knowing that their best work is out, that people love it, and that they accomplished what no other devs have been able to do this gen with UC2. If they wanted just money, maybe they should invest into Wii/DS/Apple Games right?

notsureifserious

 

[AniHawk]

It's terrifying to think that I'm actually pleasantly surprised with this.

I'd hope there were a couple thousand who also got the digital copies, as I'm one of them.

All the same, goodbye to the Jak and Daxter franchise.

It's been dead for a long time.

 

[Zizbuka]

NPD needs to start tracking X360 failures. Guess there were lots in October?

 

[TheGreatDave]

NPD needs to start tracking X360 failures. Guess there were lots in October?

:|

 

[dolemite]

NPD Canada reported 2 million Wiis sold in Canada:
source

 

[jman2050]

Naughty Dog gets to go to sleep knowing that their best work is out, that people love it, and that they accomplished what no other devs have been able to do this gen with UC2. If they wanted just money, maybe they should invest into Wii/DS/Apple Games right?

I like the game but seriously, no.

 

[user_nat]

NPD needs to start tracking X360 failures. Guess there were lots in October?

Are you sure it wasn't for all the banned consoles?

 

[AniHawk]

I like the game but seriously, no.

Yep. That honor goes to UbiSoft Montpellier for Rabbids Go Home.

 

[jman2050]

Yep. That honor goes to UbiSoft Montpellier for Rabbids Go Home.

Actually, that honor goes to Epic for making a Super Metroid clone that actually understands what made Super Metroid so good!

 

[The Technomancer]

Honestly, at this point the only thing that bugs me about the whole "Hardcore vs. Casual" debate is when you get bros who only play Halo 3 and Madden hating on stuff like Galaxy for being "a stupid kiddy game". I still remember the fallout after both IGN and Gamespot gave it GotY, and the comment sections were filled with "this lame kiddy game with cartoony graphics is total suck and goty is bullshit".

The above definitions, of casual, mainstream, and hardcore seem right about on.

 

[squicken]

I like a casual versus hardcore definition as the next guy, but I'm pretty sure the Demon's Souls crowd would be frustrated by Madden about as fast as the Madden crowd would be frustrated by Demon's Souls.