Support NeoGAF

[Redbeard]

This is the game that will get me to spend $460+ on launch day. If this wasn't coming out I could probably excercise enough self-control to hold off for a while.

 

[Xellos]

So . . . PS3 version? Yes? No? No comment until after Oblivion's X360/PC launch? Not requiring the HDD would seem to leave the door open.

 

[Polari]

So . . . PS3 version? Yes? No? No comment until after Oblivion's X360/PC launch? Not requiring the HDD would seem to leave the door open.

There's no way he can answer that, so why bother posing the question?

 

[GDJustin]

O RLY?

 

[anotheriori]

btw if its mandated that games are required to run w/o the HDD, why didn't MS have backwards compatibility available on memory cards? since now the hdd is just a glorified memory card, they could've saved money also if they went with standardized hdd (but i'm betting they're making money off the hdd).

 

[Ponn]

The incentive would probably be to sell you extra content across Xbox Live. Games that would probably need more space than a memory card could handle. New maps and planes for sequels like Crimson Skies,Halo 3 expansion packs,PGR bonus courses and cars. 64 megs could probably hold some of these but there would be compromises on a memory card maybe? Thats my take on it-a hard drive would give developers more room to expand on their already released games.

That's idealistic and stuff like that and more is what I wanted to see out of the HDD on the original Xbox and that came out woefully short. Now what is the reality of everything you said and wanting developers to do happening on a non-standard HDD machine? Do you really see third party developers embracing the HDD now and spending money on extras and expansions packs that are questionable to be used? At this point the HDD is almost to add on point since it is no longer required to be used. The real point is it may get used at the same levels it did on the Xbox, but this seals the deal that it will not very likely be used to the fullest it could have and should have been and that's sad for everyone.

 

[Xellos]

There's no way he can answer that, so why bother posing the question?

It was a silly question; I didn't mean for it to be taken too seriously (in particular the bit about "no comment until after the X360 Oblivion launch?"). Maybe I should have added an emoticon. :\

 

[Agent Icebeezy]

btw if its mandated that games are required to run w/o the HDD, why didn't MS have backwards compatibility available on memory cards? since now the hdd is just a glorified memory card, they could've saved money also if they went with standardized hdd (but i'm betting they're making money off the hdd).

Cost of backwards compatibility is built into the HDD

 

[Wax Free Vanilla]

Probably stemmed from the rumore Oblivion wasn't going to be on PS3, because of the lack of a HDD :lol

A comment like that sure seems empty now...

Yep,

From the mis-informed people at the other place.

Elder Scrolls Oblivion (PS3 version was shitcanned due to lack of HDD)

This bodes very poorly for Sony next gen, let me explain.
First off, games that requires large streaming worlds need a hard drive.
Oblivion was canceled for the PS3 during E3. It was rumored to have happened after Bethesda learned from Sony that there were no plans to ship a hard drive with the unit.

It will NOT be able to stream large worlds like 'Oblivion' out of the box.

TSK, TSK :lol :lol :lol

There's more of them, but I couldn't be bothered to trawl through all the shit there to retrieve them.

 

[acklame]

Yep,

From the mis-informed people at the other place.








TSK, TSK :lol :lol :lol

There's more of them, but I couldn't be bothered to trawl through all the shit there to retrieve them.

there's a big ass thread at ign board about how the ps3 won't get oblivion because of no standard HDD :lol

lots of crow eating today...

 

[Dr_Cogent]

Who thought it didn't work without a hard drive?

Didn't the man J. Allard tell them not to rely on having one? We heard that a long time ago too.

:lol

Cogent + MS = -1 Xbox 360 Sale

Come to papa PS3.

Sony, one other thing, don't freaking lie to me like MS did.

 

[Suikoguy]

Yeah, it costs money to implent HDD loading AND DVD loading. Geeze, every xbox had a HDD, yet only a handful of games used the HDD. So now, with the HDD not being standard, I see it being used even less.

What a crappy week in gaming

Sony, if you pull this same shit that Microsoft pulled, I will quit console gaming!

 

[Dr_Cogent]

Hard Drive this, Xbox Live that, backwards compatibility these. :lol

 

[DarienA]

Yeah, it costs money to implent HDD loading AND DVD loading. Geeze, every xbox had a HDD, yet only a handful of games used the HDD. So now, with the HDD not being standard, I see it being used even less.

What a crappy week in gaming

Sony, if you pull this same shit that Microsoft pulled, I will quit console gaming!

If you're waiting for Sony to pack in the HDD.....

 

[Suikoguy]

If you're waiting for Sony to pack in the HDD.....

Sony has never said they were including a HDD, I don't expect them too.
Sure, it would be great... but its not gonna happen

 

[element]

Sony has never said they were including a HDD, I don't expect them too.

MS never said it was standard...

 

[Suikoguy]

MS never said it was standard...

Err, yes they have, many times. Don't make me pull up quotes...

Edit: They did hint that the HDD may not be packaged at some point.

 

[HomerSimpson-Man]

If MS didn't do a HDD standard, Sony has even more reason not to have HDD packed-in.

 

[Dr_Cogent]

MS never said it was standard...

Lying by omission is still lying.

 

[DarienA]

MS never said it was standard...

That's bullshit.

 

[Guy LeDouche]

MS never said it was standard...

hah. You should photoshop a big "DENIAL!" tag on your avatar.

 

[Shompola]

MS hints were something like this in the past year : HDD(very short period) -> No HDD(longest period) -> HDD(a few months) -> NO HDD(now)

 

[jett]

PS3 port here I come!

 

[IJoel]

It's obvious Bethesda is referring to downloadable content for mods and additions to the game, just like PC gamers did with Morrowind. They've alluded to doing this on the Xbox 360.

 

[Patrick Klepek]

Some games WILL require the use the hard drive, but 99% of games will not becuase they don't want to splinter the userbase. Microsoft has already gone on record saying certain MMOs could make that a requirement for use.

 

[Synth_floyd]

I'm sure within a year or two the "Xbox 360 Core" will be phased out entirely.

 

[element]

Err, yes they have, many times. Don't make me pull up quotes...

go find a quote from a microsoft employee saying 'a HDD comes standard with each box'.

 

[Dr_Cogent]

go find a quote from a microsoft employee saying 'a HDD comes standard with each box'.

Go find their spec sheet, where it mentions the Hard Drive - IN THE SPECS.

Check the specs for yourself.

Does it say optional anywhere in there about the storage? No? Didn't think so.

And if that page changes, MS changed it. The specs are the specs. If the HD was optional, it should have been listed as such. It was instead documented in such a way that MS could "change their mind" and use your excuse that they never "said" that the HD comes standard with every Xbox 360.

Storage

* Detachable and upgradeable 20GB hard drive
* 12x dual-layer DVD-ROM
* Memory Unit support starting at 64 MB

Detachable and upgradeable 20 GB hard drive

Nowhere does it qualify that this isn't standard with every unit.

MS has good lawyers, they have learned over the years how to be deceptive. This isn't the first time they have lied to everyone about something where users thought something came standard and it was yanked out from under them. This trick is old hat with MS.

 

[Yusaku]

I'm sure within a year or two the "Xbox 360 Core" will be phased out entirely.

Agreed. I think this move is basically MS wanting to have it both ways. They want to say "Xbox 360 starting at $299!" But when you go to the store all you see are $399 HD bundles. I'd expect the core package to disapear after the first price drop.

 

[Suikoguy]

Thanks Dr_Cogent, saved me the time.. of course that does not include the many hints and pretty much statments from MS employees about the HDD

Including the recent Gameinformer article.

MS was intentionally deceptive

Agreed. I think this move is basically MS wanting to have it both ways. They want to say "Xbox 360 starting at $299!" But when you go to the store all you see are $399 HD bundles. I'd expect the core package to disapear after the first price drop.

If that ends up being the case, how many will turn around and walk out saying "Fuck it"

 

[SteveMeister]

Go find their spec sheet, where it mentions the Hard Drive - IN THE SPECS.

Check the specs for yourself.

Does it say optional anywhere in there about the storage? No? Didn't think so.

And if that page changes, MS changed it. The specs are the specs. If the HD was optional, it should have been listed as such. It was instead documented in such a way that MS could "change their mind" and use your excuse that they never "said" that the HD comes standard with every Xbox 360.

Storage

* Detachable and upgradeable 20GB hard drive
* 12x dual-layer DVD-ROM
* Memory Unit support starting at 64 MB

Detachable and upgradeable 20 GB hard drive

Nowhere does it qualify that this isn't standard with every unit.

MS has good lawyers, they have learned over the years how to be deceptive. This isn't the first time they have lied to everyone about something where users thought something came standard and it was yanked out from under them. This trick is old hat with MS.

That'd be a good point if it wasn't for the fact that Microsoft has been telling developers not to count on the HDD being there all the time pretty much from the beginning.

 

[element]

The information contained in this fact sheet relates to a prerelease product that may be substantially modified before its first commercial release. Accordingly, the information may not accurately describe or reflect the product when first commercially released. This fact sheet is provided for informational purposes only, and Microsoft makes no warranties, express or implied, with respect to the fact sheet or the information contained in it.

that also isn't a quote. I want a quote from Bill Gates, J Allard, or Robbie Bach. Not some sheet, not some unquoted 'interview'. You guys say it is out there, I'd like to see it.

 

[Mrbob]

I think the closest thing you can find is in the new GI where Allard says the first XBox 360 will ship with a hdd.

 

[element]

I think the closest thing you can find is in the new GI where Allard says the first XBox 360 will ship with a hdd.

And it still will be.

This is the type of misconceptions that cause this problem. People saw features, and didn't read the fine print.

 

[Suikoguy]

And it still will be.

This is the type of misconceptions that cause this problem. People saw features, and didn't read the fine print.

And what fine print said that not all Xbox 360's included a HDD?

\/ Can it be any more plain that that? Thanks Sangreal

 

[sangreal]

that also isn't a quote. I want a quote from Bill Gates, J Allard, or Robbie Bach. Not some sheet, not some unquoted 'interview'. You guys say it is out there, I'd like to see it.

http://www.xbox.com/en-US/press/e32005/20050516-e3exboxuberpr.htm

Microsoft detailed more key platform experiences that come standard with every Xbox 360 system:
...
Detachable and expandable 20GB hard drive to download demos and trailers along with new game levels, maps, weapons, vehicles, skins, community-created content and more, to rip music for playback and to listen to custom playlists in every game

 

[Seth C]

That'd be a good point if it wasn't for the fact that Microsoft has been telling developers not to count on the HDD being there all the time pretty much from the beginning.

Too bad that listing it basically told the CONSUMER to expect the hard drive to be there. That page is for the consumer, after all, not the developers, and the consumers are the ones buying the thing.

 

[Rhindle]

Once again, the $399 package *is the basic package.*

If the fact that they threw out the Retard Pack as an option offends you, just try to pretend it was never offered, and you had no choice but the pay $399. If you want to complain about the price being too high, fair enough go ahead.

 

[GhaleonEB]

Too bad that listing it basically told the CONSUMER to expect the hard drive to be there. That page is for the consumer, after all, not the developers, and the consumers are the ones buying the thing.

The spec sheet is one thing. But MS said clearly at E3 - many sources - that the HDD was standard. That just went to reinforce the spec sheet, which on its own is a little vauge. But all the MS reps confirming it, and now this?

 

[Mrbob]

Yeah what Allard said isn't wrong. But it is a little flakey. I'm going to post a couple question and answers from GI. It's a little enlightening after the announcement today:

GI: Will the Xbox 360 be sold in different models, one with a hard drive and one without? What about different sized hard drive?

Allard: It's something we're not ready to announce yet. We've been getting good feedback from people at E3 and a lot of retailers. Look at the succes the Ipod has had with different offerings. That is something we have looked at, sort of on the long term horizon. We want to go get everybody out there that likes to play, and make them an Xbox customer. HOw do we do that? I don't think it's a one size fits all approach over th next five year horizon. I think we'll enter the market in a very conventional fashion, and from there it's all about listening to gamers. That's what we do. Until we have the first couple of million customers, it's hard to say how we might further advance the audience.

Looks like plans have advanced from when Allard was interviewed. Some more:

GI:We've heard from developers that because there will be some customers without hard drives for their 360s, that develoeprs are mad that they can't automatically utilize the hard drive like in the original Xbox.

Allard: I think what you want to do is leave the option open. ONe of the things we did with the first Xbox was we said, "Look, party on the hardware all you want. You can use 100 percent of the resources in the very first Xbox." And that kicked us in to having the exact same spec going forward for the first five years. We can't take the hard drive out of the Xbox because it breaks Halo. It breaks launch titles. And so we didn't want to have that contraint again, so we've been selective this time, and we've said, "Hey look, don't bank on the hard drive always being there. There may be a scenario in the future where we don't want to have the hard drive, and in that case, we have to make sure tha the games you've created are accessible to the broadest possible audience." And that's what they want as well. So we're saying, "Don't bank on it, but use the crap out of it, because there's going to be a ton of machines with hard drives no matter what happens in the future."

Then he goes on to talk about how the fast DVD drive helps make up for the lack of hdd. Don't know how much I buy that.

Also, this is the quote people may be talking about regarding X360 and hdd:

GI: So the first Halo, or any Xbox title, won't be backwards compatible if you don't have an Xbox 360 hard drive?

Allard: Yeah, it won't work. Backwards compatibility is going to require a hard drive. We've been talking a little bit about la la land, and saying, "Maybe there's someday that Xbox 360 doesn't come with a hard drive." Actually, the very first one we sell is going to have a hard drive. It doesn't mean that the hard drive is always going to be attached. The owners can take it to a friend's house, and the other people can still use the 360 to play games.

A couple things. While Allard doesn't say the X360 will always have a hdd, he certainly hints that the hdd will be the standard for the system and perhaps down the road they may take it out. Secondly, MS did lie somewhat about backwards compatability. At E3 Robbie Bach said Xbox 360 will be BC with top selling games. Well, the core pack will not be BC at all.

 

[EternalDarko]

The Microsoft line is that games may take advantage of the HDD if it's there, but must be able to run if it's not. Beyond that I can't be more specific.

Mods?

you know it's true.

 

[HokieJoe]

Visit other forums. GAF is like this after any explosion. It takes longer for us to eat crow.

I ate my crow a few hours ago after spazzing like an 8year old.

YES!

Yep. They were ready to string Major Nelson up by his testes over at his blog site. :lol

 

[Scott]

The spec sheet is one thing. But MS said clearly at E3 - many sources - that the HDD was standard.

You sure? I think what they've said all along is that the SKU they're focusing on will include it.

From Kikizo's video-interview with Robbie Bach (E3):

Kikizo: And, so the pack-in is going to be wireless?

Robbie Bach: Uh, yeah.

Kikizo: What about the harddrive? Removable?

Robbie Bach: It is removable.

Kikizo: And is it.. are there 2 SKUs?

Robbie Bach: We haven't announced anything on the SKU front, um, and uh, probably won't. We have a lot of flexibility there... I think Sony's reconfigured the PS2 probably six different times. Um, and so, we're just maintaining our flexibility. Seeing uh, what the market place wants. We're getting a lot of feedback here at the show from a lot of people. But the focus right now is on the SKU you see here with the headset, the remote, and the wireless controller. And the harddisc.

Source: http://games.kikizo.com/features/robbiebach_videointerview_july05.asp

Quote is taken from 15:20 into the interview.

Also at 14:55, he mentions a different SKU he calls the "base SKU," which no doubt has evolved into the "Core" pack. Though, he also mentions that the wireless controller will be standard in this SKU, so that actually is something they've changed their stance on.

 

[Cormacaroni]

So now this means developers are in a sort of catch - 22

Cache 22? :lol

 

[Chi-Town]

We already have the info from Steve but...

http://www.gameinformer.com/NR/exeres/1AB3EC02-5021-4D70-B466-C11538918174.htm

Ever since Microsoft's announcement of the Xbox 360's pricing structure, gamers everywhere have been wondering if developers will take full advantage of the hard drive since it's not a standard accessory with every system. After all, why would a developer want to risk excluding a large segment of the 360 gaming market?

Bethesda, maker of The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion for Xbox 360, has previously boasted considerable use of the hard drive for its massive RPG. Many gamers are wondering if they can still play Oblivion if they purchase the hard drive-free Core System. We contacted Bethesda directly to find out.

"We've known since day one that there would be versions of the 360 without a hard drive, so Oblivion will still work on every 360," assures Todd Howard, executive producer at Bethesda. "That being said, Oblivion takes full advantage of the hard drive and uses it extensively, so we'd certainly recommend that everyone gets one."

This indicates that the hard drive can be tapped for more than just MP3 and photo storage. It seems developers are not afraid to utilize the hard drive for optimizing load times and streamlining their games much like the original Xbox.

 

[Agent Icebeezy]

Ever since Microsoft's announcement of the Xbox 360's pricing structure, gamers everywhere have been wondering if developers will take full advantage of the hard drive since it's not a standard accessory with every system. After all, why would a developer want to risk excluding a large segment of the 360 gaming market?

Bethesda, maker of The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion for Xbox 360, has previously boasted considerable use of the hard drive for its massive RPG. Many gamers are wondering if they can still play Oblivion if they purchase the hard drive-free Core System. We contacted Bethesda directly to find out.

"We've known since day one that there would be versions of the 360 without a hard drive, so Oblivion will still work on every 360," assures Todd Howard, executive producer at Bethesda. "That being said, Oblivion takes full advantage of the hard drive and uses it extensively, so we'd certainly recommend that everyone gets one."

This indicates that the hard drive can be tapped for more than just MP3 and photo storage. It seems developers are not afraid to utilize the hard drive for optimizing load times and streamlining their games much like the original Xbox.



That's cool

 

[u_neek]

------------

From GameInformer - probably old.
http://www.gameinformer.com/News/Story/200508/N05.0817.1800.09580.htm

Ever since Microsoft's announcement of the Xbox 360's pricing structure, gamers everywhere have been wondering if developers will take full advantage of the hard drive since it's not a standard accessory with every system. After all, why would a developer want to risk excluding a large segment of the 360 gaming market?

Bethesda, maker of The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion for Xbox 360, has previously boasted considerable use of the hard drive for its massive RPG. Many gamers are wondering if they can still play Oblivion if they purchase the hard drive-free Core System. We contacted Bethesda directly to find out.

"We've known since day one that there would be versions of the 360 without a hard drive, so Oblivion will still work on every 360," assures Todd Howard, executive producer at Bethesda. "That being said, Oblivion takes full advantage of the hard drive and uses it extensively, so we'd certainly recommend that everyone gets one."

This indicates that the hard drive can be tapped for more than just MP3 and photo storage. It seems developers are not afraid to utilize the hard drive for optimizing load times and streamlining their games much like the original Xbox.

Game Informer has also heard rumblings that Microsoft mandated all Xbox 360 games be playable without hard drive assistance (MMOs are excused from this requirement). It's up to the developer to choose how much hard drive optimization to include in their games from that point.

We'll unravel more on details on Xbox 360 in the months leading up to launch.

 

[Solid]

mm

http://www.ga-forum.com/showthread.php?t=59598

 

[RaySpencer]

The boxart looks pretty good, reminds me off Morrowind, i havent followed the Elder Scrolls before that, so i dont know if thats what they allways look like...but looks nice none the less

cant wait to own this game and do nothing but rob people of absolutely EVERYTHING ! WOO !

 

[Borys]

PC art is actually better (just like the game) because it isn't obscured by that limey green Xbox 360 logo.

They didn't scaled the Xbox 360 box just slapped the 360 logo on top of PC version, haha.