The only people saying this are people without 360s (or with blinders on). The 360 has less party games with casual appeal, but overall it has a much larger diversity of good games across every genre. The only two genres that are really lacking good games are platforming and party/mini games.
I'm really sick of this meme, but I think you are just confusing "games without strong casual appeal" with "narrow lineup."
When I worked at a game store last year, the biggest problem we had with the 360 was when parents would come in looking for games for their children. I spent a lot of time going over the games on the shelf and couldn't find many games that fit that demographic. Sure, there was the occasional Cars, Harry Potter, and Disney license game, but it's pretty obvious those games aren't the main focus. There may be games in all genres on the system, but it's image comes from games like Gears of War, Halo, Bioshock, etc. In the end, we would tell parents to pick up a Wii, or go with a PS2 since all the genres were represented well.
I think casuals do care about online. All you have to do is look at how many people are playing casual games online on their computer every single day.
The question is, how many of them do this competitively (as in playing online simply to go against other humans) and how many do it as an inexpensive (or free) way of playing something? Most of the little old ladies I know who play games online play stuff that isn't about competing with other people but about playing the game itself.
I think casuals do care about online. All you have to do is look at how many people are playing casual games online on their computer every single day. With that said, the online implementation on the consoles is still lagging behind how simple it is on the PC (launch browser and go). The 360 made huge strides here where you're always online, but you still have to get over that initial setup process and pay to play, which are two big barriers of course.
Good point. In addition, certain people will never consider buying a gaming system that revolves around a controller like the 360s. Sure, we are familiar with it, but it is a major barrier to most non-gamers.
You note the affinity towards casual online computer games. The difference here is that everyone has a computer, these computers are already hooked up to the internet for (typically) more important reasons (news, work, school, etc. not just games), and they use the familiar keyboard or mouse input. These people aren't going to see the allure in purchasing an expensive console, figuring out how to hook it up to the internet, and all that jazz. These features might attract users already in a household, but they wouldn't be enticing for the vast, vast majority of the casual online gaming crowd. Now that I read your post more thoroughly, I see that you essentially note this in the last sentence. Arg. Lastly, you need to consider the fact that many of these games are enjoyed as a single player experience through the medium of the internet, and 'online' is only in reference to the way you access them.
It was pretty much how it went. Reggie didnt spend a dime on advertising at launch. Nintnedo instead sent tons of consoles to newspapers and magazines to get mainstream casual owners interested. Stuff like Time Magazine talking about the Wii before launch got casuals hooked. It was pretty brilliant
To suggest that they went after Zelda Fans or Nintendo fans first is disengenous. Especially when the bigger Core games came out late 07/early this year.
The question is, how many of them do this competitively (as in playing online simply to go against other humans) and how many do it as an inexpensive (or free) way of playing something? Most of the little old ladies I know who play games online play stuff that isn't about competing with other people but about playing the game itself.
All board and card games that you would play online are competitive. Spades, poker, bridge, etc.
Cheez It said:
Good point. In addition, certain people will never consider buying a gaming system that revolves around a controller like the 360s. Sure, we are familiar with it, but it is a major barrier to most non-gamers.
You note the affinity towards casual online computer games. The difference here is that everyone has a computer, these computers are already hooked up to the internet for (typically) more important reasons (news, work, school, etc. not just games), and they use the familiar keyboard or mouse input. These people aren't going to see the allure in purchasing an expensive console, figuring out how to hook it up to the internet, and all that jazz. These features might attract users already in a household, but they wouldn't be enticing for the vast, vast majority of the casual online gaming crowd. Now that I read your post more thoroughly, I see that you essentially note this in the last sentence. Arg. Lastly, you need to consider the fact that many of these games are enjoyed as a single player experience through the medium of the internet, and 'online' is only in reference to the way you access them.
Definitely on that first point. Even if you just use one button and an analog stick, the 360 controller just looks intimidating. Ironically enough, it's usually easier to use than the Wiimote (seeing casual players trying to aim their throws and control the camera in Boom Blox and be rather....frustrating) if you are using more than one button (aka Wiichuk combo). Hell, I still get B, C, and Z mixed up sometimes on the Wii!
But yeah, overall, casual players seem to be much more at ease with the Wii, especially if they're just using the Wiimote.
Agree on your second point except for the last part. All online board and card games are competitive, and they're being played as much as Bejeweled and Bookworm.
To suggest that they went after Zelda Fans or Nintendo fans first is disengenous. Especially when the bigger Core games came out late 07/early this year.
They didn't have to but only because the hardcore Nintendo fans were already there, thus it makes sense to target the majority of marketing $ to new/casual fans.
But those aren't the only games they're playing: Pogo.com, for example, has board and card games but they also have a lot of things that aren't -- and part of the incentive of playing is receiving some tangible reward (in the shape of tokens that can be traded in for cash and/or other stuff). Part of its appeal isn't necessarily the competition, per se, but the fact that they're able to play games for free and perhaps win something on top of that. Zero risk, possible reward. This is completely different from services like Live where you pay to play stuff and all you really gain from doing so is e-peen.
I agree that games like board games and card games, which are traditional and (by their very nature) competitive, are popular with the casual crowd. But I think that has more to do with their familiarity than it does any inherent interest in competing online.
The only people saying this are people without 360s (or with blinders on). The 360 has less party games with casual appeal, but overall it has a much larger diversity of good games across every genre. The only two genres that are really lacking good games are platforming and party/mini games.
I'm really sick of this meme, but I think you are just confusing "games without strong casual appeal" with "narrow lineup."
The meme exists not because the 360 lacks certain games, but because of how the games on the 360 are presented.
What games get all the advertising dollars? What games are put at the forefront of the console experience? It's almost always the shooters, sports & driving games. The 360 has the best RPG lineup of the current gen consoles, but unless you're avidly devouring all the 360 has to offer, you'd never notice.
It's the same thing with the Wii. The Wii has plenty of great, core games on it, but the games that get the huge advertising budgets are Wii Sports, Wii Fit, Mario & Sonic, Rayman Raving Rabbids and the like. So people get the impression that that's all the Wii is, plus the occasional Nintendo franchise game.
It's less about reality, and more about marketing. To fix the perception, the companies need to fix their respective marketing.
Wii beat everything, PS3 fell on its face, 360 thrived in the shadow of Nintendo. Basically what we EXPECT to happen now but at the time it was contrary to what everyone thought they "knew" about the emerging gen.
Ahh yes. Forgot about that little icing on the cake. The next several NPDs were even more entertaining on that front, with all the "grudge match PS3 vs. GBA" gifs and the fact PS3 kept losing.
Wii beat everything, PS3 fell on its face, 360 thrived in the shadow of Nintendo. Basically what we EXPECT to happen now but at the time it was contrary to what everyone thought they "knew" about the emerging gen.
Ahh yes. Forgot about that little icing on the cake. The next several NPDs were even more entertaining on that front, with all the "grudge match PS3 vs. GBA" gifs and the fact PS3 kept losing.
Was it that time when Sony said PS3 was supply constrained (someone at Sony made a bet about finding PS3s at stores...) when it wasn't and people where very excited because the announcements of Home and LBP would increase sales?
It was pretty much how it went. Reggie didnt spend a dime on advertising at launch. Nintnedo instead sent tons of consoles to newspapers and magazines to get mainstream casual owners interested. Stuff like Time Magazine talking about the Wii before launch got casuals hooked. It was pretty brilliant
To suggest that they went after Zelda Fans or Nintendo fans first is disengenous. Especially when the bigger Core games came out late 07/early this year.
They didn't market toward core gamers at launch, but they certainly shored up their Gamecube base by announcing Smash Brothers with online at E3 2005, and rolling out Zelda/Galaxy/Prime 3 within a year of launch.
Was it that time when Sony said PS3 was supply constrained (someone at Sony made a bet about finding PS3s at stores...) when it wasn't and people where very excited because the announcements of Home and LBP would increase sales?
Naw, that was a few months ago, I think. Feb 2007 was the beginning for the logically minded people to accept the Wii was gonna win. Better sales than 360, lined up by launch date, a failing PS3, due to price and a stagnant 360 (even now when 360 sells ~200K, it's just horrible considering the lead they had). It was in it's 2nd year but only really matched it's previous sales.
BTW, this seems to be the biggest NPD thread ever.
I know this was already discussed to death in several threads over the past few years...
but if possible, and for all future NPD and console war threads, is it too much to ask people to kindly indicate what exactly they consider "hard-core" gaming?
- contains esoteric content that does not appeal to the majority of the market and/or based on obscure content that is not easily approachable by the average consumer?
- contains extreme violence, especially when directly initiated by the player?
- contains "realistic" violence that allows the player to perform acts of violence in normally peaceful situations?
- contains often initially difficult game systems that reward players that invest time and effort in mastering such systems?
- utilizes bleeding-edge graphics technology?
- requires learning one or more "complex" systems as a prerequisite for for even playing the game at its lowest difficulty setting? (SimCity, some RPGs)
- requires intellectual aptitude instead of twitch/reflex in order to progress?
- is priced beyond the reach of the average consumer? (a la NeoGeo or high-end PC gaming)
- allows or even demands that the user create/compile content themselves or even fiddle with hardware just to get things running? (custom firmwares, gp2x, compiling your own Angband flavors)
What else did I miss? Probably quite a few, since some people will always have different interpretations of the same "hard-core" tag. I really don't see what's wrong with the Wii outstripping everyone else. At the least it gives mainstream media better gaming press than violence in GTAIV or kids being inspired by games to kill others. MS, Sony and the other 3rd party publishers all know the market is big enough to support their big-budget titles anyway; it's not like the only console that will remain standing in 2012 will be Nintendo's.
Hopefully gaming will go the way that comics and graphic novels went in the past decade or so: with less dollar trash flooding the market and an increased number of quality books that hooked buyers with their presentation, production quality, storytelling, and fresh ideas. Great graphics still sell of course but they're only really going to work on kids picking up single issues.
I picked Fables up just because of the stunning cover art, but was hooked ever since.
Was it that time when Sony said PS3 was supply constrained (someone at Sony made a bet about finding PS3s at stores...) when it wasn't and people where very excited because the announcements of Home and LBP would increase sales?
More software than 360 and PS3 put together in North American alone. Wii is the true software beast - lots of hardware, plus buyers that certainly do buy more than Wii Sports = Software King.
The 360's head start is really screwing up a lot of people's perspective of the true situation, it seems.
Edit: Lol, equal software. Point still stands. 360 has been touted as the software king for a long time now. It's still ahead overall, of course. But it says a lot for Wii to surpass 360's software each month with a lower installed base.
Holy shit. :lol Wii is outpacing both 360 and ps3 combined with both software and hardware. Hehe the irony, "HD gaming" alltogether beaten hard by the little console that could. And all while having massive shortages since launch. What's that Microsoft; First to 10 wins? Well, I guess you where on to something there!
Top 20 Video Game Titles:
1. Grand Theft Auto IV* (Xbox 360) 1.850.000
2. Mario Kart Wii (Wii) 1.120.000
3. Grand Theft Auto IV* (PS3) 1.000.000
4. Wii Play w/ Remote (Wii) 360.000
5. Super Smash Bros. Brawl (Wii) 326.000
6. Gran Turismo 5: Prologue (PS3) 224.000
7. Pokemon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers of Darkness (NDS) 202.000
8. Pokemon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers of Time (NDS) 202.000
9. Guitar Hero III: Legends of Rock (Wii) 152.000
10. Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare* (Xbox 360) 141.000
11. Crisis Core: Final Fantasy VII (PSP)
12. Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six: Vegas 2* (Xbox 360) 103.500
13. Naruto: Ultimate Ninja 3 (PS2)
14. Game Party (Wii)
15. Guitar Hero III: Legends of Rock* (PS2)
16. New Super Mario Bros. (NDS)
17. Mario Kart DS (NDS)
18. Rock Band* (Xbox 360)
19. Mario Party DS (NDS)
20. Super Mario Galaxy (Wii)
Top 10 Wii Titles:
1. Mario Kart Wii 1.120.000
2. Wii Play w/ Remote 360.000
3. Super Smash Bros. Brawl 326.000
4. Guitar Hero III: Legends of Rock 152.000
5. Game Party
6. Super Mario Galaxy
7. Mario and Sonic: Olympic Games
8. Carnival Games
9. Mario Party 8
10. Tiger Woods PGA Tour 08
Top Xbox 360 Titles:
1. Grand Theft Auto IV* 1.850.000
2. Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare* 141.000
3. Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six: Vegas 2 103.500
4. Rock Band*
5. Guitar Hero III: Legends of Rock*
6. Army of Two
7. Major League Baseball 2K8
8. Halo 3*
9. Iron Man
10. Assassin's Creed*
Top PS2 Titles:
1. Naruto: Ultimate Ninja 3
2. Guitar Hero III: Legends of Rock*
3. MLB '08: The Show
4. God of War II
5. Shin Megami Tensei: Persona 3
6. Rock Band*
7. Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas
8. Metal Gear Solid: Essential Collection
9. Iron Man
10. Grand Theft Auto: The Trilogy
Top 10 PS3 Titles:
1. Grand Theft Auto IV* 1.000.000
2. Gran Turismo 5: Prologue 224.000
3. Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare
4. MLB '08: The Show
5. Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six: Vegas 2*
6. Rock Band*
7. Guitar Hero III: Legends of Rock*
8. Army of Two
9. Assassin's Creed*
10. Iron Man
Top 10 NDS Titles:
1. Pokemon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers of Darkness 202.000
2. Pokemon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers of Time 202.000
3. New Super Mario Bros.
4. Mario Kart DS
5. Mario Party DS
6. Mario and Sonic: Olympic Games
7. Imagine: Babyz
8. Pokemon Diamond Version
9. The World Ends With You 43.000
10. Brain Age 2: More Training in Minutes a Day
Top 10 PSP Titles:
1. Crisis Core: Final Fantasy VII
2. God of War: Chains of Olympus 64.000
3. Grand Theft Auto: Vice City Stories
4. MLB '08: The Show
5. Grand Theft Auto: Liberty City Stories
6. Midnight Club 3: DUB Edition
7. Ratchet & Clank: Size Matters
8. Patapon
9. Need for Speed Carbon: Own the City
10. Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six: Vegas
Top 20 Video Game Titles:
1. Grand Theft Auto IV* (Xbox 360) 1.850.000
2. Mario Kart Wii (Wii) 1.120.000
3. Grand Theft Auto IV* (PS3) 1.000.000
4. Wii Play w/ Remote (Wii) 360.000
5. Super Smash Bros. Brawl (Wii) 326.000
6. Gran Turismo 5: Prologue (PS3) 224.000
7. Pokemon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers of Darkness (NDS) 202.000
8. Pokemon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers of Time (NDS) 202.000
9. Guitar Hero III: Legends of Rock (Wii) 152.000
10. Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare* (Xbox 360) 141.000
11. Crisis Core: Final Fantasy VII (PSP)
12. Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six: Vegas 2* (Xbox 360) 103.500
13. Naruto: Ultimate Ninja 3 (PS2)
14. Game Party (Wii)
15. Guitar Hero III: Legends of Rock* (PS2)
16. New Super Mario Bros. (NDS)
17. Mario Kart DS (NDS)
18. Rock Band* (Xbox 360)
19. Mario Party DS (NDS)
20. Super Mario Galaxy (Wii)
Top 10 Wii Titles:
1. Mario Kart Wii 1.120.000
2. Wii Play w/ Remote 360.000
3. Super Smash Bros. Brawl 326.000
4. Guitar Hero III: Legends of Rock 152.000
5. Game Party
6. Super Mario Galaxy
7. Mario and Sonic: Olympic Games
8. Carnival Games
9. Mario Party 8
10. Tiger Woods PGA Tour 08
-
xx. Okami < 100.000
Top Xbox 360 Titles:
1. Grand Theft Auto IV* 1.850.000
2. Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare* 141.000
3. Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six: Vegas 2 103.500
4. Rock Band*
5. Guitar Hero III: Legends of Rock*
6. Army of Two
7. Major League Baseball 2K8
8. Halo 3*
9. Iron Man
10. Assassin's Creed*
Top PS2 Titles:
1. Naruto: Ultimate Ninja 3
2. Guitar Hero III: Legends of Rock*
3. MLB '08: The Show
4. God of War II
5. Shin Megami Tensei: Persona 3
6. Rock Band*
7. Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas
8. Metal Gear Solid: Essential Collection
9. Iron Man
10. Grand Theft Auto: The Trilogy
Top 10 PS3 Titles:
1. Grand Theft Auto IV* 1.000.000
2. Gran Turismo 5: Prologue 224.000
3. Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare
4. MLB '08: The Show
5. Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six: Vegas 2*
6. Rock Band*
7. Guitar Hero III: Legends of Rock*
8. Army of Two
9. Assassin's Creed*
10. Iron Man
Top 10 NDS Titles:
1. Pokemon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers of Darkness 202.000
2. Pokemon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers of Time 202.000
3. New Super Mario Bros.
4. Mario Kart DS
5. Mario Party DS
6. Mario and Sonic: Olympic Games
7. Imagine: Babyz
8. Pokemon Diamond Version
9. The World Ends With You 43.000
10. Brain Age 2: More Training in Minutes a Day
-
xx. Ninja Gaiden Dragon Sword 23.700
Top 10 PSP Titles:
1. Crisis Core: Final Fantasy VII
2. God of War: Chains of Olympus 64.000
3. Grand Theft Auto: Vice City Stories
4. MLB '08: The Show
5. Grand Theft Auto: Liberty City Stories
6. Midnight Club 3: DUB Edition
7. Ratchet & Clank: Size Matters
8. Patapon
9. Need for Speed Carbon: Own the City
10. Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six: Vegas
