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Powerful 3D console = Powerful 2D console ?
- Thread starter Vieo
- Start date
The Abominable Snowman
Member
To my understanding, the PS2 would have been the best if it wasn't limited to 48MBVieo said:And technically speaking, what is currently the most 2D capable console? NeoGeo?
It can push the most sprites, and particles.
The Abominable Snowman
Member
Yeah, it's pretty much null now, especially next gen. The focus now should be alternatives to sprites that produce a better end result. Cell Shading is nice, and Flash shows potential.aaaaa0 said:
NeoGeo is actually pretty weak 2D hardware. It was outclassed by the Saturn and PS1 and perhaps even the 3DO. Where the Neo had the advantage over the early 32 bit machines was nearly unlimited cart ROM vs very limited RAM.
Right now all three machines are pretty much capable of anything in terms of 2D sprites, though Xbox would probably be the winner just because of total RAM.
Right now all three machines are pretty much capable of anything in terms of 2D sprites, though Xbox would probably be the winner just because of total RAM.
Is Alien Hominid actually using some sort of retrofitted Flash Player to run on the console ports? Are there any other console games using Flash? From the dev community I've heard about the possibility of ported Flash menu interfaces, but not full games/other assets.The Abominable Snowman said:
MomoPufflet
Member
I was under the impression that tiny RAM was what hurt PS1 as a 2D machine. Saturn had more, plus the RAM expansion cart.
Finaika
Member
Not necessarily, the PS1 has superior 3D capabilities than the Saturn, but its 2D capabilities are subpar. Notice the tons of missing frames + horrendous loading times for its Capcom or SNK fighters ports.Vieo said:
Of course compared to now Neo Geo is weak, but when it was released way back in 1990 it was a monster for its time.Fatghost28 said:
APF said:
There are at least a handful of console games using Flash for UI (I know for sure that Stranger's Wrath did).
It would not surprise me to see Flash based games showing up on consoles at some point. Vector graphics are the right way to do high quality 2d art (especially since consoles now display at 480, 720, and 1080). ActionScript is an interesting programming language...it has quite a few flaws, but a number of neat things (hooray for closures!).
The Abominable Snowman
Member
Wasn't the Sammy Rumblefish games Flash-made mostly?
â Narayan
Member
Yep, and it made the characters look like paper-dolls.The Abominable Snowman said:
Hellraizah
Member
Good 2D hardware MUST be cartridge based.
Hellraizah
Member
With good animation and high definition support, easily.Tain said:
atomiswave
Member
its not like any 2d games company is going to care about pushing better sprites than before. I think it will not get better than street fighter III third strike. and with sony not liking 2d games, let the rehashing begin !!
atomiswave
Member
hm...for some reason i posted it twice..
The Abominable Snowman
Member
So the Naomi/2 sucked...?Hellraizah said:
anotheriori
Member
I think 2D oriented hardware was basically:
NeoGeo MVS
Capcom CPS3
and maybe Naomi (GGXX)
probably powerful 3D = powerful 2D, generally powerful 2D consists of lots of ram and sprites on screen.
gotta give a hand of applause for the MVS though it held out really well.
so like a whole bunch large detailed 60fps 1080i resolution sprites, which next gen should be able to do, but now the content creation costs is where it becomes unreasonable.
NeoGeo MVS
Capcom CPS3
and maybe Naomi (GGXX)
probably powerful 3D = powerful 2D, generally powerful 2D consists of lots of ram and sprites on screen.
gotta give a hand of applause for the MVS though it held out really well.
so like a whole bunch large detailed 60fps 1080i resolution sprites, which next gen should be able to do, but now the content creation costs is where it becomes unreasonable.
What are some properties of 2D not easily replicated by 3D?
How would we go about imitating those properties with 3D?
Apart from fixed interfaces, what other concievable uses or benefits of 2D are there in the next gen... as opposed to 3D simulating 2D appearance?
The only benefit I see is, lower cost for more simplistic 2D items... for the items that require high amounts of animation, the cost of 2D quickly scales up in a linear fashion.
Also, variety outside of color swap is more difficult to achieve with 2D.
How would we go about imitating those properties with 3D?
Apart from fixed interfaces, what other concievable uses or benefits of 2D are there in the next gen... as opposed to 3D simulating 2D appearance?
The only benefit I see is, lower cost for more simplistic 2D items... for the items that require high amounts of animation, the cost of 2D quickly scales up in a linear fashion.
Also, variety outside of color swap is more difficult to achieve with 2D.
The Abominable Snowman
Member
Charm and detail, basicallyZaptruder said:
Artstyle and higher res Cel-shaded textures, as well as higher poly models. I don't think Cel-shading allows for normal mapping or bump mapping.
AndreasNystrom
Member
Wasnt the Saturn really some "sprite-warp"-3d machine. Aka, it wasnt really doing real 3d, but it used some warp-technique to make it look 3d.
The any info i remember, was that the PS2 had hardware for pushing over 18million sprites / second.
Thats a bit more then my old amiga which had 8 hardware-sprites
The any info i remember, was that the PS2 had hardware for pushing over 18million sprites / second.
Thats a bit more then my old amiga which had 8 hardware-sprites
The Abominable Snowman said:
See. That answer doesn't cut it.
What the hell is charm and detail on a technical basis?
I was looking more for answers like dynamic stretching, warping, etc... basically 2D animation tricks that exaggerate the movement of the characters by blurring, stretching, distorting the length of the frames.
Another thing that you might lose would be a 'neutral perspective'... I'm kinda just making up terms as I go along, but the idea is that 2D allows a character to stay in a similar perspective regardless of their position on their screen...
like in Zelda, the sprite is the same regardless of which part of the screen he's on; he changes according to facing and animation.
3D on the other hand, will show it according to a perspective, changing the view slightly as he moves from right to left of the screen.
Although there is something out there called orthogonal perspective (I think) that replicates the 2D perspective trick... and you'd be able to apply that to 3D still.
The main change is the nature of the animation... the frame by frame nature means larger changes can be made while still maintaining consistency...
on the otherhand, it's not impossible to replicate the effect in 3D; instead of having a guided path for points to travel along, which is kinda how 3D animation operates, capture each point in a stop motion type deal, such that the game displays each frame independent of each other... but at a fixed rate. Fast enough, it still creates the illusion of movement; but not via mathematical transformation of the points...
It'll require more work though; even with traditional 3D animation procedures, and then writing software that could capture each frame and the points... you'd have to get someone to go back in and touch up each frame, in order to get that 'hand crafted' feel.
The other thing that might be tricky would be the stylistic use of lines... artists use advance judgement in terms of deciding which line to occlude, abstract, thicken, etc... with a computer, even though you might be able to achieve the look of one frame via some complex rules, it would become immediately obvious that it was 3D in motion...
but I think that's a small price to pay for both developers and players, when the benefits include, more variety, smoother animation and more views.
3D technology has finally matured to the point where any flaws between art styles of 3D games emulating a 2D look, and 2D games themselves, would be accountable via the talent of the developer...
I mean... somehow I think they'd be less people holding the likes of Street Fighter EX series in disdain if the graphics and style were more akin to this:
Instigator
Banned
Fatghost28 said:
Irrelevant. Saturn and PS1 were released over 4 years after Neo Geo. For all the dough the Neo Geo was worth in early 1990 (it did beat the Genny and SNES), newer technology outclassed it in late 1994 (Saturn & PS1). That's obvious.
And while people assumed PS1 was just a 3D machine, at its core, it was still a sprite pusher (which distorted those same sprites into 3D geometry, similarly to the Saturn, but more powerful).
Instigator
Banned
Zaptruder said:I mean... somehow I think they'd be less people holding the likes of Street Fighter EX series in disdain if the graphics and style were more akin to this:
Tecmo already have the plasticky, anime characters covered.
Vieo said:If a console has powerful 3D visuals, does that automatically mean it can push powerful 2D visuals?
And technically speaking, what is currently the most 2D capable console? NeoGeo?
No, see N64.
Longer answer:
Ttraditonally, 2D games are tile based while 3D use polygons (triangles). 2D performance is dependent on how the console handles tiles, multiple backgrounds, sprites and so on. 3D is more reliant on processort and GPU power, as well as the effects that the Videocard can push.
Basically, if a console is designed to have powerful 3D graphics but they neglect 2D, have shitty sprite or tile system, then it will become a pain to develop 2D games, let alone good ones.
2 and half D is another story.
About 1MB more total... though Saturn had notable expansion carts, for last gen it was...OmniGamer said:
PlayStation
-2MB main RAM
-1MB video RAM
-5KB L1 Cache
-512KB audio RAM
-32KB CD-buffer RAM
Sega Saturn
-2MB main RAM
-1.5MB video RAM
-512KB audio RAM
-512KB CD-buffer RAM
-1MB RAM expansion (SNK)
-4MB RAM expansion (Capcom)
Nintendo 64
-4MB unified RAM
-24KB L1 Cache
-4MB RAM expansion (Nintendo)
Ponn01 said:
...Yes, i'm aware of both the SNK RAM cart, which was slower than the internal ram, and the Capcom 4MB RAM cart which ran at full speed...I have X-Men vs. Street Fighter, MSH vs. Street Fighter, and Vampire Savior....i'm talking about the stock system and the differences in loading for similar 2D games(for instance, Street Fighter Alpha 2 for PS/Saturn).
*Edit* Thanks jarrod
Instigator said:
And no one really complains about the graphics of DOA3 or DOAU.
The gameplay on the otherhand... well I've described above how you could keep the frame by frame animation system of the game; fix the perspective, so that hit detection is consistent and you can have gameplay akin to that of a 2D fighter, but with 3D graphics.
anotheriori
Member
The reason why 2d->3d transition doesn't work to well is that the 2D representation is taken with a bit of imagination for the viewer to fill in the details as it's a symobolic representation of the character, unlike a 3D model where realism comes into play. By making the model 3D (from a 2D original) people's expectations can't be fullfiled.
It works better when the character is originally created in 3D but even then the problem comes into play with DOA models where the chosen anime style is rejected by people who want realism, so in some sense 3D = realism. People expect details, wrinkles, freckles etc when characters make the transition.
Lastly this probably isn't a very good argument but with 2D the artist has more control and detail working on an exact perspective (2D) on an exact frame, so that it look exactly a certain way. With 3D its somewhat a stab in the dark, since the perspective can be changed and unlike 2D they characters can't dynamically change as easily from frame to frame.
It works better when the character is originally created in 3D but even then the problem comes into play with DOA models where the chosen anime style is rejected by people who want realism, so in some sense 3D = realism. People expect details, wrinkles, freckles etc when characters make the transition.
Lastly this probably isn't a very good argument but with 2D the artist has more control and detail working on an exact perspective (2D) on an exact frame, so that it look exactly a certain way. With 3D its somewhat a stab in the dark, since the perspective can be changed and unlike 2D they characters can't dynamically change as easily from frame to frame.
Suburban Cowboy
Member
paper mario looked pretty good and had a bunch of sprites on screen at any given time. is that considered 2d?
I never got the "Hi-res 2D" thing most people drool about. For pixel graphics the sweet spot is standard resolution on a proper arcade monitor (ie about 320x220 to 384x240). When you go higher, you get more of an "illustration" look which isn't nearly as charming. I like when every pixel is significant.
This is also why I hate that many arcade conversions now (for example Metal Slug 3-5 and just recently Mushihimesama) don't have proper lo-res support for that true arcade look. At 480i (as opposed to 240p) the pixels lose integrity and the overall look just breaks apart.
This is also why I hate that many arcade conversions now (for example Metal Slug 3-5 and just recently Mushihimesama) don't have proper lo-res support for that true arcade look. At 480i (as opposed to 240p) the pixels lose integrity and the overall look just breaks apart.