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[And_Gignac]

You're literally arguing that Bernie is better than Hillary on an issue, despite having the exact same stance on said issue as her.



Like, where the fuck am I right now? Is this the fucking Twilight Zone?

No, but probably in an emotionally ridden place that doesnt allow you to clearly read what I wrote. He is better because Clinton is a warhawk. Sanders is not.

September 9, 2015:

HILLARY CLINTON GOES TO MILITARISTIC, HAWKISH THINK TANK, GIVES MILITARISTIC, HAWKISH SPEECH

But who knows, maybe she already "evolved" on this issue too.

 

[SolarPowered]

Jesus Christ

People here are at each other's throats like Republicans and Democrats. GAF is starting to resemble congress at this rate lol. Sounds like a staffer messed up in a big way here.

 

[Bronx-Man]

No, but probably in an emotionally ridden place that doesnt allow you to clearly read what I wrote. He is better because Clinton is a warhawk. Sanders is not.

September 9, 2015:



But who knows, maybe she already "evolved" on this issue too.

So because Hillary may or may not say something to offer support to Israel in the future, that automatically makes Bernie the most pro-Palestine candidate of all, despite offering no support to Palestine at all.


Well shit, I'm convinced.

 

[Flying Toaster]

No, but probably in an emotionally ridden place that doesnt allow you to clearly read what I wrote. He is better because Clinton is a warhawk. Sanders is not.

September 9, 2015:



But who knows, maybe she already "evolved" on this issue too.

This is something a lot of Clinton supporters refuse to believe. But yes the fact is she is Hawkish.

This isn't bad it is just a fact. Also as great as Sanders is he will not make it, for the same reason Trump won't make it with the Republican Party neither has the support needed from the establishment.

 

[Cheebo]

Show me a Democrat candidate who prioritizes Palestine and I'll be happy to vote for him or her. Otherwise GTFO with that two-dimensional sheeple bullshit.

Because the Democratic candidate is will be more supportive of Palestine than the Republican candidate. Not to the extent you want but in American politics its a two person choice. Vote your heart in the primary, vote the least worst option of the 2 major party candidates in the general. That is how the system is setup and functions. Voting green is implicit support for the Republican candidate.

We had significant support for third party candidates in 92, 96, and 00. In all 3 cases all it did was hurt the candidate from major party whose views was closest to that of the third party candidate. And make voters LESS likely to vote third party because in the end many saw all it did was help the candidate they were most opposed to.

Ask a Ralph Nader voter from Florida how they felt after the election back in November 2000. For a while there liberals were more angry at him than they were Bush.

Voting third party is and will remain a round about method of voting for the opposing party farthest from your views unless there is MAJOR electoral reform, until then yes by voting green you are effectively voting Republican. And is how your support will be perceived by most on the left.

 

[SilentRacoon]

It doesn't change the fact that it happened.

Also, low level staffers don't take a shit without checking with their bosses. The fact that he thought this was OK says a lot about internal discussions. It also assume that he's not just the fall guy.

You seem to be passing all your assumptions as facts, perhaps they didn't and that's why they got fired. But sure lets put all the blame on him, god forbid he is unable to control the personal actions of all the people from his staff.

 

[benjipwns]

Would someone be so kind as to compare/contrast Clinton and Sander's stance/policy on gun control? Ideally in a table or bullet point format. This is an issue I'm interested in.

The one thing that I heard from Sanders is that he voted NO on allowing gun manufacturers to be sued by victims. I kinda agree with that though. I mean, if you sue because the gun malfunctioned and blew your hand off, that's one thing, but to sue because someone used the gun irresponsibly is another. Maybe my analogy is not good - and if so, please tell me why - but I compare this to suing chevrolet because some drunk driver killed a family member while driving a chevy silverado.

I hate "fact checkers" but I hate actually doing work more, so a slightly negative view:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...-characterization-of-a-controversial-gun-law/

And a very negative view:
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...ndependent_voted_against_gun_control_for.html

Bernie Sanders, Gun Nut
He supported the most reprehensible pro-gun legislation in recent memory.

 

[Flying Toaster]

Because the Democratic candidate is will be more supportive of Palestine than the Republican candidate. Not to the extent you want but in American politics its a two person choice. Vote your heart in the primary, vote the least worst option of the 2 major party candidates in the general. That is how the system is setup and functions. Voting green is implicit support for the Republican candidate.

We had significant support for third party candidates in 92, 96, and 00. In all 3 cases all it did was hurt the candidate from major party whose views was closest to that of the third party candidate.

Voting third party is and will remain a round about method of voting for the opposing party farthest from your views unless there is MAJOR electoral reform, until then yes by voting green you are effectively voting Republican.

Don't let the irony of this truth out of the bag. Hardcore progressives that vote Green would melt if they realized the truth about voting Green.

 

[dehydratedbabies]

I really wonder what you guys are going to say if after the debate there is no change from minority voters towards Bernie.

Lots of racist stuff, obviously!

What's the origin of "stans"? Is that an Eminem reference?

 

[And_Gignac]

So because Hillary may or may not say something to offer support to Israel in the future, that automatically makes Bernie the most pro-Palestine candidate of all, despite offering no support to Palestine at all.


Well shit, I'm convinced.

Well, he supports the state-hood of Palestine. But yeah he is not good for Palestine, he is just the "best" (in my opinion) of what we have, if that makes sense. I personally dislike a lot how he addresses the issue; you cant put Israel and Palestine in the same venue of "victimism".

 

[B-Dubs]

You seem to be passing all your assumptions as facts, perhaps they didn't and that's why they got fired. But sure lets put all the blame on him, god forbid he is unable to control the personal actions of all the people from his staff.

You're also taking everything out of the campaign at face value. I never blamed him for this, if you were to go back and read my commentary in the OP I point out that this was done by said staffer and regurgitate Bernie's campaign's point while pointing out that they need to stop making this fucking mistake already. My ire is, and has always been, pointed at his campaign and not at him. So stop telling me I'm putting all the blame on him and read the damn OP in it's entirely before posting.

 

[Jag]

So because Hillary may or may not say something to offer support to Israel in the future, that automatically makes Bernie the most pro-Palestine candidate of all, despite offering no support to Palestine at all.


Well shit, I'm convinced.

Bernie is probably the closest to Obama on Israel out of every candidate currently running. Those that are looking for a blanket endorsement of all Palestinian issues aren't going to get it.

What does Bernie believe is the best path toward peace between Israel and the Palestinians ?

Bernie believes in a two-state solution:

“The hatred, violence and loss of life that define this conflict make living an ordinary life a constant struggle for both peoples. We must work with those Israeli and Palestinian leaders who are committed to peace, security and statehood rather than to empty rhetoric and violence. A two-state solution must include compromises from both sides to achieve a fair and lasting peace in the region. The Palestinians must fulfill their responsibilities to end terrorism against Israel and recognize Israel’s right to exist. In return, the Israelis must end their policy of targeted killings, prevent further Israeli settlements on Palestinian land and prevent the destruction of Palestinian homes, businesses and infrastructure.”
http://feelthebern.org/bernie-sanders-on-israel-and-the-palestinians/

 

[Bronx-Man]

You're also taking everything out of the campaign at face value. I never blamed him for this, if you were to go back and read my commentary in the OP I point out that this was done by said staffer and regurgitate Bernie's campaign's point while pointing out that they need to stop making this fucking mistake already. My ire is, and has always been, pointed at his campaign and not at him. So stop telling me I'm putting all the blame on him and read the damn OP in it's entirely before posting.

But reading is hard

 

[Ziltoidia 9]

Neither Israel nor Palestinian are angels. There isn't a perfect candidate on the issue. We need to stop thinking we can solve their conflict and just call for them to stop both sides from bombing and taking over land. That's all we can do. Religion makes people ape shit apparently over there.

 

[And_Gignac]

I hate "fact checkers" but I hate actually doing work more, so a slightly negative view:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...-characterization-of-a-controversial-gun-law/

And a very negative view:
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...ndependent_voted_against_gun_control_for.html

kii the good sis Mark Joseph Stern (the slate article writer) is a very vocal anti Sanders writer. He is really handsome though, so I will let him say what he got to say.

& Sanders has evolved on the gun issue tho lmao

 

[andthebeatgoeson]

Are there any other progressives that support Sanders?

Lawl. That's cold. I thought I saw a graphic on CNN last night how Hillary's black support is dropping.

 

[benjipwns]

Really, this is going all according to plan for Joe. Bernie's racism and pro-gun fanaticism and hatred of the Palestinians is sinking his campaign. Hillary is headed to prison.

And here comes Joe to unify the party. And the nation.

 

[Vigilant Walrus]

Question; Is it an oxymoron to say that you believe in Israels right to exist, but that you disapprove of the unequal treatment of the Palestinian people?

I wonder if you can be pro-Israel but basically be Anti Israeli-Government-and-Policy?


Is this viewpoint hypocrisy in your guys opinion?

 

[Flying Toaster]

Question; Is it an oxymoron to say that you believe in Israels right to exist, but that you disapprove of the unequal treatment of the Palestinian people?

I wonder if you can be pro-Israel but basically be Anti Israeli-Government-and-Policy?


Is this viewpoint hypocrisy in your guys opinion?

Not at all. I feel this way.

Perhaps we are just bad people.

 

[Bronx-Man]

Really, this is going all according to plan for Joe. Bernie's racism and pro-gun fanaticism and hatred of the Palestinians is sinking his campaign. Hillary is headed to prison.

And here comes Joe to unify the party. And the nation.

Sandersland is resembling Foxland.

 

[Chariot]

Neither Israel nor Palestinian are angels. There isn't a perfect candidate on the issue. We need to stop thinking we can solve their conflict and just call for them to stop both sides from bombing and taking over land. That's all we can do. Religion makes people ape shit apparently over there.

What is that.
There are criminal elements among the palestinians, some of them terrorists or associates, sure. But most of the support the terrorists get is rooted on the fact that the common people of Palestine have no one else to turn to. The governments negotiating with Israel lose land since they can't deal with the illegal settlements and the countries of the world have abandoned the people of Palestine - or in the case of the USA, support their displacement and killing. In the case of Palestine it's not religion that drives them - it's survival. In the case of Israel it's bigotery, racism and hunger for power. Whoever thinks that Israel needs to build illegal settlements for their survival is bonkers.

 

[noshten]

Sandersland is resembling Foxland.

You do realize he is trolling?

 

[docbon]

Giving Bibi the cold shoulder doesn't mean shit if an operation twice as deadly as Cast Lead was still allowed to occur in Gaza, followed by continued bulldozing for new settlements in the West Bank.

"WHY WON'T YOU JUST LET US DECIDE WHO'S BEST FOR YOU PEOPLE?!"

Didn't you just get through shitting on a dude for wanting to vote for an explicitly pro palestinian candidate?

 

[Bronx-Man]

Giving Bibi the cold shoulder doesn't mean shit if an operation twice as deadly as Cast Lead was still allowed to occur in Gaza, followed by continued bulldozing for new settlements in the West Bank.



Didn't you just get through shitting on a dude for wanting to vote for an explicitly pro palestinian candidate?

I was joking about the 2000 thing.

 

[pgtl_10]

Sanders is PEP(Progressive Except Palestine). American politics as usual.

 

[JordanN]

What is that.
There are criminal elements among the palestinians, some of them terrorists or associates, sure. But most of the support the terrorists get is rooted on the fact that the common people of Palestine have no one else to turn to. The governments negotiating with Israel lose land since they can't deal with the illegal settlements and the countries of the world have abandoned the people of Palestine - or in the case of the USA, support their displacement and killing. In the case of Palestine it's not religion that drives them - it's survival. In the case of Israel it's bigotery, racism and hunger for power. Whoever thinks that Israel needs to build illegal settlements for their survival is bonkers.

No, that can't be right.

When Hamas freed Gilad Shalit you know what the ransom was? Hundreds of convicted murderers being freed.

 

[Chariot]

Sanders is PEP(Progressive Except Palestine). American politics as usual.

Hah?
Sanders is in support of a two state solution, against settlements and the attacks and siege of Gaza and he is especially no fan of Netanyahu.

No, that can't be right.

When Hamas freed Gilad Shalit you know what the ransom was? Hundreds of convicted murderers being freed.

Hamas is the terrorist element I spoke of, so I don't know what your argument is.

 

[Gus tha God]

This has been known since the beginning. You can not be a politician in the US if you support Palestine.

To many people, Bernie is hero who's fighting against all those other shitheel politicians. To me, he's just another one of those shitheels.

 

[Fennec]

The campaign apologized for the occurrence, but no doubt he is a pro-Israel politician. I doubt he will be as "hard" on Israel especially in rhetoric as Obama.

Was Obama specifically "harder" on Israel compared to the previous US presidents? From my European point of view, I don't think so. Since he was elected, Israel has more than ever blindly killed innocent peoples and all the USA did is veto any UN resolution against Israel. As usual.

 

[DrFaustPhD]

And when he told people who disagreed with him on Israel/Palestine to "Shut up? was that a staffer too?

Did you even watch the video in your own link? It's a big fat stretch to say he was telling people who disagreed with him to shutup - it was clearly and explicitly asking people to who were interrupting him to shutup. Yeah, its not the most diplomatic response, but he was just trying to finish his reply to the woman who asked him a question and people in the group just started yelling all sorts of stuff, preventing him from finishing.

 

[JordanN]

Hah?
Hamas is the terrorist element I spoke of, so I don't know what your argument is.

You said "they have no one else to turn to and it's for survival" but Hamas don't care about them.

 

[User 463088]

Would someone be so kind as to compare/contrast Clinton and Sander's stance/policy on gun control? Ideally in a table or bullet point format. This is an issue I'm interested in.

The one thing that I heard from Sanders is that he voted NO on allowing gun manufacturers to be sued by victims. I kinda agree with that though. I mean, if you sue because the gun malfunctioned and blew your hand off, that's one thing, but to sue because someone used the gun irresponsibly is another. Maybe my analogy is not good - and if so, please tell me why - but I compare this to suing chevrolet because some drunk driver killed a family member while driving a chevy silverado.

It's not a chart, but it goes over a few of the times Sanders has been on opposite sides of the rest of the potential Dem candidates. Guns! Pew! Pew!

Did you even watch the video in your own link? It's a big fat stretch to say he was telling people who disagreed with him to shutup - it was clearly and explicitly asking people to who were interrupting him to shutup. Yeah, its not the most diplomatic response, but he was just trying to finish his reply to the woman who asked him a question and people in the group just started yelling all sorts of stuff, preventing him from finishing.

Yes, I watched the video. I watched it when it happened too. Sander's default response to someone who doesn't agree with him is to get all pissed off. He did it here. He did it with the BLM people as well. He does it in interviews, especially if he doesn't get to talk about economic populism.

 

[Chariot]

You said "they have no one else to turn to and it's for survival" but Hamas don't care about them.

Of course Hamas care. Not a lot, but they do care, after all they are palestine too and get their support from that base. Even if they mostly care for themselves, they are caring for palestine too. And this is more than they get from anyone else. If you have no friends the enemy of your enemy is the best you can get.

 

[Valhelm]

Question; Is it an oxymoron to say that you believe in Israels right to exist, but that you disapprove of the unequal treatment of the Palestinian people?

I wonder if you can be pro-Israel but basically be Anti Israeli-Government-and-Policy?


Is this viewpoint hypocrisy in your guys opinion?

I think most Americans feel this way, to a degree.

 

[genjiZERO]

Because the Democratic candidate is will be more supportive of Palestine than the Republican candidate. Not to the extent you want but in American politics its a two person choice. Vote your heart in the primary, vote the least worst option of the 2 major party candidates in the general. That is how the system is setup and functions. Voting green is implicit support for the Republican candidate.

We had significant support for third party candidates in 92, 96, and 00. In all 3 cases all it did was hurt the candidate from major party whose views was closest to that of the third party candidate. And make voters LESS likely to vote third party because in the end many saw all it did was help the candidate they were most opposed to.

Ask a Ralph Nader voter from Florida how they felt after the election back in November 2000. For a while there liberals were more angry at him than they were Bush.

Voting third party is and will remain a round about method of voting for the opposing party farthest from your views unless there is MAJOR electoral reform, until then yes by voting green you are effectively voting Republican. And is how your support will be perceived by most on the left.

I voted Nader in VA in 2000 and have never regretted it.

 

[pgtl_10]

This has been known since the beginning. You can not be a politician in the US if you support Palestine.

To many people, Bernie is hero who's fighting against all those other shitheel politicians. To me, he's just another one of those shitheels.

Bernie is not a socialist either. His job is to rally young voters who are tired of neo-liberalism to support Democrates. If he doesn't win the nomination he will convince people to vote the neo-liberal status quo. He is a rally the base candidate. Nothing more.

 

[noshten]

Was Obama specifically "harder" on Israel compared to the previous US presidents? From my European point of view, I don't think so. Since he was elected, Israel has more than ever blindly killed innocent peoples and all the USA did is veto any UN resolution against Israel. As usual.

Hence I specifically said rhetoric.

 

[pgtl_10]

Of course Hamas care. Not a lot, but they do care, after all they are palestine too and get their support from that base. Even if they mostly care for themselves, they are caring for palestine too. And this is more than they get from anyone else. If you have no friends the enemy of your enemy is the best you can get.

From my understanding Hamas' goal is an Islamic/Palestinian state (Unsure which) between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River. They could change that position in recent years.

 

[Fennec]

Hence I specifically said rhetoric.

Let me reformulate my thought : was he, rhetorically speaking, harder than is predecessors?

I mean if he was, it's because the acts of war Israel did were harder too.

 

[pgtl_10]

Because the Democratic candidate is will be more supportive of Palestine than the Republican candidate. Not to the extent you want but in American politics its a two person choice. Vote your heart in the primary, vote the least worst option of the 2 major party candidates in the general. That is how the system is setup and functions. Voting green is implicit support for the Republican candidate.

We had significant support for third party candidates in 92, 96, and 00. In all 3 cases all it did was hurt the candidate from major party whose views was closest to that of the third party candidate. And make voters LESS likely to vote third party because in the end many saw all it did was help the candidate they were most opposed to.

Ask a Ralph Nader voter from Florida how they felt after the election back in November 2000. For a while there liberals were more angry at him than they were Bush.

Voting third party is and will remain a round about method of voting for the opposing party farthest from your views unless there is MAJOR electoral reform, until then yes by voting green you are effectively voting Republican. And is how your support will be perceived by most on the left.

No by voting Green, I vote for the Green party. My job isn't to make sure the Republicans lose. My job is to vote for who I think is best capable of running the country. This sports fan like attitude among voters is why new ideas can't come in fast enough. Liberals that are mad at Ralph Nader for his support are not really liberals. They are fans of the Democrat party and only want their team to win nothing more.

 

[JordanN]

Of course Hamas care. Not a lot, but they do care, after all they are palestine too and get their support from that base. Even if they mostly care for themselves, they are caring for palestine too. And this is more than they get from anyone else. If you have no friends the enemy of your enemy is the best you can get.

They hoard entire luxury cars and expensive hotels to themselves, while leaving the rest of Gaza being in poverty. If that's caring, that makes every other dictator/despot love their country too.

 

[pgtl_10]

They hoard entire luxury cars and expensive hotels to themselves, while leaving the rest of Gaza being in poverty. If that's caring, that makes every other dictator/despot love their country too.

Eh same could be said Father and even Israeli politicians like Olmert and Lieberman.

 

[Bronx-Man]

No by voting Green, I vote for the Green party. My job isn't to make sure the Republicans lose. My job is to vote for who I think is best capable of running the country. This sports fan like attitude among voters is why new ideas can't come in fast enough. Liberals that are mad at Ralph Nader for his support are not really liberals. They are fans of the Democrat party and only want their team to win nothing more.

I'll always chose to go 2 steps forward than 15 steps back.

 

[noshten]

Let me reformulate my thought : was he, rhetorically speaking, harder than is predecessors?

I mean if he was, it's because the acts of war Israel did were harder too.

You gotta remember that the previous presidents were Bush, Clinton, Bush Sr. and Ron - I don't remember any of them being really rhetorically as harsh as Obama has. Obviously talking the talk is different than doing anything in terms of pressuring the Israeli Administration.

 

[2 Slice Toaster]

No by voting Green, I vote for the Green party. My job isn't to make sure the Republicans lose. My job is to vote for who I think is best capable of running the country. This sports fan like attitude among voters is why new ideas can't come in fast enough. Liberals that are mad at Ralph Nader for his support are not really liberals. They are fans of the Democrat party and only want their team to win nothing more.

You don't think there was genuinely a lot of people who weren't diehard Democrats who just...didn't want George fuckingBush to be president?

 

[dramatis]

No by voting Green, I vote for the Green party. My job isn't to make sure the Republicans lose. My job is to vote for who I think is best capable of running the country. This sports fan like attitude among voters is why new ideas can't come in fast enough. Liberals that are mad at Ralph Nader for his support are not really liberals. They are fans of the Democrat party and only want their team to win nothing more.

It's not a sports fan attitude.

If your realistic options are A or B (only A or B can win), choosing option C is just you being individualistic and principled, and answerable only to yourself. It does nothing for society. You won't settle because you think you're too good for the system, and then complain when the system doesn't reflect you or moves too slow to reflect you. You get mad at other people who are less idealistic and more pragmatic than you. It's not about teams, it's about the actual future, not your principled idealistic future that doesn't come at the speed of light.

So what if people vote Democratic or Republican? They're the ones who get to have a say, who get to change something. Unless the system changes (which requires you vote for the people who can change it from the inside), your third party vote will be meaningless. Blame the system, blame other people, blame everyone but yourself, sure.

 

[Gus tha God]

Neither Israel nor Palestinian are angels. There isn't a perfect candidate on the issue. We need to stop thinking we can solve their conflict and just call for them to stop both sides from bombing and taking over land. That's all we can do. Religion makes people ape shit apparently over there.

Wow you know absolutely nothing about what's going on over there.

 

[User 463088]

No by voting Green, I vote for the Green party. My job isn't to make sure the Republicans lose. My job is to vote for who I think is best capable of running the country. This sports fan like attitude among voters is why new ideas can't come in fast enough. Liberals that are mad at Ralph Nader for his support are not really liberals. They are fans of the Democrat party and only want their team to win nothing more.

This is the kind of stuff that just drives me absolutely insane. Who are any of us to tell someone what they are or what they aren't. If you say you're a liberal, you're a liberal. Ralph Nader fucked over the 2000 election. Not just in Florida, but elsewhere as well. (Especially New Hampshire) Was Nader the sole reason Gore lost? No. Gore made some mistakes, especially running away from Clinton.

The shit that our country went through (in part because of) Ralph Nader's inflated view of self-importance, quite literally, nearly destroyed our country. It fucked over our economy. Caused the loss of thousands of Americans and god knows how many Iraqis.

So, ya, as a liberal who has worked for a decade to get liberal candidates into office up and down ballot, I can be pissed at what Nader helped to achieve. .

 

[Stumpokapow]

Really, this is going all according to plan for Joe. Bernie's racism and pro-gun fanaticism and hatred of the Palestinians is sinking his campaign. Hillary is headed to prison.

And here comes Joe to unify the party. And the nation.

The thing I like about you is that you're the perfect combination of a bright guy who does a good job arguing unpopular but mostly sincere positions in a really systematic, almost Socratic way... and a troll who loves riling people up for kicks. Your game is totally on fleek today.

 

[genjiZERO]

No by voting Green, I vote for the Green party. My job isn't to make sure the Republicans lose. My job is to vote for who I think is best capable of running the country. This sports fan like attitude among voters is why new ideas can't come in fast enough. Liberals that are mad at Ralph Nader for his support are not really liberals. They are fans of the Democrat party and only want their team to win nothing more.

I completely agree with you. I'll also add that I personally think it's immoral to support a candidate who allows for the apartheid status quo in Palestine/Israel today. So even if I did think the Democrat candidate was more aligned to my point of view I wouldn't be able to vote for that candidate because I think that action would be immoral.