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Star Citizen Pre-Alpha: 'Arena Commander' Dogfighting
- Thread starter MrBig
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Irobot82
Member
A lot of that and I also think of lot of them enjoy him becoming psychotic. It's like playing both sides of the field and watching it all burn. I do believe they don't think the game will be what CR has promised due to feature creep and Derek Smart has gone from flame troll to losing reality.
Dictator93
Member
Zalusithix
Member
Well, a mobile command center doesn't need to be scary. In a battle it just needs to survive, have the ability to monitor the situation, and coordinate the other ships. Being in combat is actually a detriment, as you're occupied dealing with the immediate threat rather than looking at the big picture. Thus the emphasis on sensors and a bridge with a good view. Sensors for picking up things on radar from far away, and the bridge for visual fallback where more than one person can actually see what's going on.
That said, my Carrack is predominantly for exploration and getting me from point A to point B to check up on the various ships in my fleet that I'll have delegated out to the org. A personal hub of operations if you will. Actual battlefield logistics will be a side task, and one that I probably wont be fulfilling with it all too often. Combat isn't my main focus in the org, and if there's something big planned where I can count on a sizable human crew, then there's a good chance it will be in the Idris. The Carrack would only be used in impromptu situations or times where there aren't enough people to man the Idris.
staticneuron
Member
True, but what I was talking about was being on my own using the phoenix as a BAMF cruise boat. If I was sure I had a squadron at my back I wouldn't care. I guess I mistated what I meant by mobile command center
I don't mean this....
I mean this..
with a little bit of this
Why be a space pirate when you can be a space party animal?
Rephin
Member
You. I like you. lol
Xane
Member
It is, don't worry.
Sorry for being pedantic again: Would you people stop posting out of context quotations references relating to Star Citizen? Who said what and when? Where's that being mentioned? Source? Deep link to the overly verbose videos CIG keeps putting out?
Not everybody stays glued to all the Star Citizen feeds everywhere every time. ;-)
Aha, found it: A useful, searchable summary of "Reverse the Verse"
Well... "useful". There's far too much "Ben ate a Pizza!" - level stuff, but it's far more skippable in text form - thank goodness.
Zalusithix
Member
If they're using high end materials, a good design, and strict QC then $550 seems about right. That's nothing in the sim world. They're already offering a budget model, so I'd prefer the attempt at a high end one actually be high end. The market needs something to knock the Warthog off the top spot for commercially available HOTAS.
There's always the CH Products Sticks/Pro Throttle. They don't look as fancy as the Warthog, but the throttle's mini stick makes the setup practically ideal for space games (close to a 2-Stick setup, probably better in terms of main thruster control) where lateral thrust is required. In terms of reliability, they also seem to be outstanding.
Dubbedinenglish
Banned
CH stuff and the VKB products are above the Warthog in terms of #1. Those are top ones not because of touch screens or lights and shit, it's because of build quality and mechanical precision. This is also not a new model, it is a rebranded X-65 with trackballs. Also if they are doing a LED screen at the bottom of the joystick then it is really the most stupid place to put on as it will both out of view and obstructed by your arm.
I just don't see Saitek starting new manufacturing processes just to make one branded high end HOTAS, it'll be based off the X65F or X55 depending on how their fabs are set up.
For some unfathomable reason Thrustmaster doesn't make pedals any more so you can't use their software to combine non-TM devices to play (older) games which only support one controller. Genius.
For some unfathomable reason Thrustmaster doesn't make pedals any more so you can't use their software to combine non-TM devices to play (older) games which only support one controller. Genius.
But, but, but! It's shiny, lights up like a christmas tree and is probably expensive. It must be high end! >.<
If they also will make the screen a bloody touch screen and put it at the base of the Joystick. Well... it's no less stupid than the switches at the base of the low end stick they showed. On the contrary - it's even more inconvenient. There will then be no tactile feedback whatsoever, making blindly operating it - which is what is required of any function on a flighstick - a hassle.
I'm an absolute sucker for metal. I went with the plastic CH Products stick and throttle. 'Nough said.
Zalusithix
Member
CH products are an oddball. They're not products that you'll find heavily advertised, and thus off the radar of many consumers. They also lack the button/toggle switch count of their more mainstream competition. Add in the super low key looks and you have a product that's a hard sell to the general public.
I said commercially available products, referencing highly available consumer gear. CH is already pushing that. VKB? Yeah, now we're in an entirely different range of products. As for the rebranded X65, I doubt it. The X65 was a force sensing joystick. I don't think we're going to see that here. Until we see the end product, anything is up for grabs. The mock ups we saw back at the debut weren't functional units.
Dubbedinenglish
Banned
Eh those two are no less niche than the Warthog, availability aside IMO. If you are getting a Warthog then you will know about the others.
As far as the X-65, that's exactly what they debuted with:
If I'm not mistaken the force sensing was one edition of the X-65, while cool if it were, I think they'll use a traditional hall sensor set up.
Zalusithix
Member
Eh those two are no less niche than the Warthog, availability aside IMO. If you are getting a Warthog then you will know about the others.
As far as the X-65, that's exactly what they debuted with:
If I'm not mistaken the force sensing was one edition of the X-65, while cool if it were, I think they'll use a traditional hall sensor set up.
The Warthog isn't that niche. It's been reviewed by a number of mainstream gaming/news sites. It's available from most online stores around the world. It's from a brand you can find in brick and mortar shops. CH I'll grant you as having the possibility of having heard of due to how long the company has been around. VKB? Not a chance. They'd only be something you'd come across if you were looking for non-commercial stuff. Hell, they don't even offer a HOTAS as the T part is missing. Quality gear, sure, but that's a whole different level of stuff.
As for the promo image, I'm just waiting for the real product before I judge it at this point. I don't put much faith in mock ups and bullet points. Things evolve during the creation of a product. There's already going to be a bunch of custom molding going on, so designing / refining a new gimbal area isn't something that should be outright dismissed. If anything, it's the perfect opportunity for them to do so. I don't expect them to beat the niche market in quality, but anything that moves the general consumer market along is welcome.
Agree with the VKB - It's nearly as esoteric as the MFG Crosswind or Slaw Device pedals for the average consumer. When people are looking to spend 300€ on a Warthog + X€ for pedals however, they can be expected to consider their options. By which time they should stumble over the CH Products, which are in the same price range and also require pedals for the rudder axis, unless you remap things and use the mini stick's axis. Problem is, their presentation on the web sucks. The CH Products product page for their sticks is hardly more than an afterthought, measured by modern web presentation standards. Information on them is rare compared to the Warthog and Saitek options. Only being advertised in sim-centric shops, having that 90s plastic design vs. the metal Warthog does the rest. People have to dig a bit deeper to find out that they're much more than just an uglier and for some unknown reason high priced option.
The final products may be great, but the mockups don't give me much hope. They are so obviously poorly done renders, that I have nearly no faith in the final thing. If they cared to make a sensible options and didn't just put out flashy images to have something to show, they would for instance not have done the nearly borderless screen rubbish. That's fanmade handheld console territory quality if you ask me - and that's exactly how believable I consider those renders. The most realistic is the low end HOTAS, which is a modified X52 in design. As they also seem to insist on putting switches on the Joystick's base though, I also have no hopes for it being a well designed product - they're building in at least one, if not more of the flaws that made me sell my X52 Pro. Now with added trackballs, which I admit might be a great idea, suspect the intention is to improve the handling of gimbals. As I have a HOTAS that they pretty likely won't match in quality, but they insist to use gimbals, I'll just use my mouse instead. Combined with the CH Products throttle and a set of pedals that should give me the best of both worlds - great thruster control, good aiming accuracy and excellent control of the ship's roll with the pedals.
I've already tested the combination of the throttle and mouse in Elite, where it's working great.
Zalusithix
Member
The more amusing aspect of the throttle mock up is that it's a split design. This makes tons of sense for twin engine jets in real life. Meanwhile in Star Citizen we have craft with anywhere from one to a half dozen plus main engines. To make matters worse, there's no way to actually manipulate them separately in game. As such, there's absolutely no reason to bother with the additional parts and build complexity that a split throttle presents.
But yeah, switch the throttle to a single axis design, migrate the screen to the throttle base, and improve the build quality over their previous offerings and you have the possibility of a decent HOTAS. Equally possible that it'll be an overpriced POS. Only time will tell.
But yeah, switch the throttle to a single axis design, migrate the screen to the throttle base, and improve the build quality over their previous offerings and you have the possibility of a decent HOTAS. Equally possible that it'll be an overpriced POS. Only time will tell.
Dictator93
Member
Yeah it is weird. I guess you could maybe have one be the default throttle and the other be one for decoupled (wait, no)? I have no idea.
Honestly HOTAS is a waste of time. I'm rocking dual joysticks, and it is real nice to control. The only thing that I'm lacking is some kind of scroll wheel or throttle lock so that I don't have to push the strafe joystick forward when in normal flight.
Hmm, Maybe I'll try to program a script with TARGET. I wonder if it is capable of doing that.
Hmm, Maybe I'll try to program a script with TARGET. I wonder if it is capable of doing that.
Dubbedinenglish
Banned
That's just the Saitek throttle they use. The X-65's physical throttle is the same as the X-55 just the panel moved to the base. I think it would make sense for Saitek to stick with it rather than make a whole new throttle.
Still the screen on the base of the stick or throttle makes zero sense considering it will not be in your direct line of sight and non tactile response. What are you supposed to get out of it if you use VR?
Could use it for shield balance, I guess?
Pedals for forward/backward strafe are the way to go, I'd say
Zalusithix
Member
Looking down to the throttle area doesn't interfere much more than focusing the camera on a MFD in game. You're losing situational awareness either way. Lack of tactile isn't that big of an issue for things that don't map well to physical buttons and axes. Something like shield control or power management is a perfect example. Quick analog control with the other controlled states dynamically changing as you manipulate one. Buttons are digital controls that are awkward to use when adjusting analog systems. Analog axes aren't servo controlled on consumer gear, so if systems are linked, moving one analog wont adjust the others to where they need to be. This leaves rotary encoders as the only physical control option.
My issues aren't so much for strafe. You can use analog forward strafe as an alternative to throttle. The problem with the joystick is that unlike a HOTAS throttle, when you let go it resets its analog value back to the origin.
My proposal is to have an axis value capture while a button is pressed which then should allow the joystick to return to rest, but effectively have the axis value being replicated. Then pressing the button again would release the lock.
Ahem. The screen is under your wrist when you hold the joystick. That design requires you to let go of the joystick, look down from the monitor on the screen, possible fiddle around on it - if it's a touch screen, grab the joystick again, look up to the display, verify that whatever you initiated down there did actually work (which, being touch based, may not be guaranteed) and then take up your ship's control again.
It doesn't only require you to look down, it also requires you to possibly let go of the stick. I find the idea ridiculous.
To me it looks like somebody threw a lot of incoherent terms at a wall - "high-end", "touch-screen", "high fidelity", "HOTAS", "slick", "metal", "cool" - and somebody who didn't go to the trouble - or wasn't given the time to do so - of imagining how the resulting mockup would work under every day conditions modeled something in a 3D tool, did a render and handed it to CIG, so they got flashy things to show in their presentation.
I'm afraid, the longer I follow Star Citizen, the more I get the impression that that's pretty much also how they come up with their concepts for ships and game features, while somehow, the actual implementation/programming side of things struggles (and so far: fails badly) to keep pace. Not in terms of artwork and 3d modeling, which is top notch, but in terms of realizing all the fancy features others come up with. Edit: And looking at the cloud-castles the leading people in Star Citizen seem to be dreaming up, I certainly couldn't blame the programmers. They are, after all, required to build MS Flight Simulator (civil space lines >.<), GTA in space, Wing Commander, space-ship F-Zero, Space-Quake and probably half a dozen other games together. And because the game's claim of being the "Best damn space sim" is so ridiculously blown up, it's small wonder that they have trouble to get it done. They're chasing a moving target by definition and can't allow themselves to make anything less cool or less complex than any other game out there.
Right, that's why I was recommending the pedals - it's much easier to maintain a position with your foot than your hand while trying to coordinate all the other stuff with that hand. I'm sure the axis lock idea could be done though if that's what you prefer.
Zalusithix
Member
We've already talked about moving the display to the throttle, and not the stick. In a real plane, you have to let go of something to flip switches and use MFDs. If you're looking away from the action to control something else, then letting go of the throttle for a few moments is hardly the end of the world. It stays in place on release and is easy enough to get back to when you resume flying.
Generally speaking, the throttle is the least actively manipulated control function and can afford a small lag in response time as you move back to it. Even if you could control everything with your hands still on the throttle, it's unlikely you'll be able to multitask to the point where you're able to do so while manipulating the throttle at the same time. Humans just aren't that good at things like that.
I know that the throttle is a more sensible place.
The trouble is: Somebody - either at CIG or Saitek's side - doesn't seem to know. Which is a terribly confidence inducing thought, seing as they're the experts at building game controllers and knowing how the game ought to control.
Not. :-/
Zalusithix
Member
Well I can't imagine CIG would be the one calling the shots on that. Saitek is the one with hardware experience. They should be just taking CIG's suggestions and applying it in a way that makes sense. Letting CIG dictate all aspects design would be lunacy. You don't give a software company with no hardware experience carte blanche control over a major hardware product that has your name on it. If it sucks, it's not going to be CIG taking the blame, it'll be Saitek.
Anton Sugar
Member
I think that, if these sticks are made "for" Star Citizen, it is completely understandable, and even expected, that CIG would have some input on the needs demanded by Star Citizen's flight model/controls. Otherwise, what's the point?
If two companies partner up to bring a competent high end product to the market in the 450$ (edit: 550$ for Christ's sake!) dollar range, neither is relieved from showing some common sense. A poor product will reflect on both of them and I personally don't care who points the finger at whom.
They are both showing a lack of common sense here and I fear it's rather indicative.
Teknopathetic
Member
"Generally speaking, the throttle is the least actively manipulated control function and can afford a small lag in response time as you move back to it. Even if you could control everything with your hands still on the throttle, it's unlikely you'll be able to multitask to the point where you're able to do so while manipulating the throttle at the same time. Humans just aren't that good at things like that."
In real airplanes, yes. In space sims you're usually working the throttle a lot.
In real airplanes, yes. In space sims you're usually working the throttle a lot.
Zalusithix
Member
Yes, some input. Hence "take suggestions". That's a far cry from letting them dictate where to put every piece. There's a big difference between "We ideally want a touch screen" and "Put a touch screen below the stick". A hardware company should have the ability to say "No, that wont work that well, but if we do X, we can retain that concept and have it more functional".
Compared to pitch, yaw, and roll, throttle is still the least used control. If you have to let up on anything, throttle is what you're going to choose.
Teknopathetic
Member
The ideal control solution would not require me to have to make that decision. Especially considering VR headsets are on the way.
They absolutely should. Just as the software company asking the other company to design a licensed hardware for them should and absolutely has to be able to determine that a design has flaws and would benefit from a change.
Yet, here we are...
Anton Sugar
Member
None of us know the extent of this partnership, but I had to think at some point, a series of concepts were presented to CIG, rather than "we took your notes, like wanting a touch screen, and here is the final product design that we can make zero alterations to."
I guess without knowing the behind-the-scenes, we have no idea who is at fault (did CIG just not consider the touchscreen location vs is this a compromised solution they both agreed on vs did Saitek say that cannot, technically, put the touchscreen elsewhere), but like Burny said, neither group looks particularly smart here.
Zalusithix
Member
VR is a pickle of a situation that isn't going to be perfect no matter what. Stuff like touch screens are obviously out of the question. You'll just have to use the same control methods that everybody else does that doesn't have that specific HOTAS. (The vast majority of people.) Meanwhile physical control schemes aren't perfect either as there will be a physical disconnect between what you're using and what you see your in game self as using. The only way to get close to perfect would be an Elite type setup where every ship uses the exact same control setup.
Kind of a moot point for SC though, as I don't see you getting anywhere close to the FPS needed for VR in SC any time soon.
Dictator93
Member
Cool comments from Ali Brown on the forums:
Ali Brown said:
Ali Brown said:
Good, something always felt a bit off about the bloom.
Zalusithix
Member
Well, as painful as losing the Idris will be, at least it'll be a nice fireworks display! The Constellation destruction was already impressive. Can't wait to see a true cap ship blow.
Dictator93
Member
What's the point when you can beat this
With this?
Well it is a sim game, and people do like feeling like they are flying a space ship.
Exactly, that's why imo HOTAS should be better than a mouse for controls.
I have not tried the PTU so I don't know if they fixed this.
What's the point when you can beat this
With this?
Yup. As stated above it is a sim game. Notably the all the cockpits of the ships show the player character using a stick. Honestly, I'd be pretty amusing if the more "turret in space" type ships got their joysticks replaced by a flat surface and a mouse pad.
No, it should not.
Both methods should allow for a comfortable ship controls and neither should be unarguably more powerful than the other where combat is concerned. That's how you satisfy the most people. It's up to CIG to balance this through game design.As a side note: not exlicitely supporting HOTAS would also be a solution. As tuxfool says though, it's a pretty amusing thought after they have been so vocal about making the best damn space sim and their ingame pilots are using a joystick rather than a mouse.
CyberPunked
Member
Becuase it's really satisfying to play this kinda game with a joystick and such.What's the point when you can beat this
With this?
Irobot82
Member
I'm still looking to buy a universal joystick so I can try out a HOMAS setup. I think it might give the best advantage of all of them.
Zalusithix
Member
What's the point when you can beat this
With this?
Immersion. Flying with a mouse just doesn't feel right. It makes you feel like you're playing a game rather than flying a ship. As for the mouse vs stick performance, even with no changes to the system, a mouse isn't going to have much of an advantage in piloting the big multi crew ships. Another human / AI is going to have control of gimbal/turret aiming.
Glad this HOTAS topic came up though. I haven't been following the niche stick market lately and the mention of VKB got me looking into it again. Something like the Fat Black Mamba Mk.III with the Warthog adapter seems like a great option for my end HOTAS setup. Keep the high quality grip from the Warthog, and get it on an equally high quality gimbal. All those extra switches and whatnot on the base are kind of pointless, but having more inputs never hurt I guess.
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