DeathoftheEndless
Crashing this plane... with no survivors!
The characters' motivations for and against the accords are explained in Civil War, not the previous movies.
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The Fans Have Inherited the Film Industry and It's a Problem for the Rest of Us
- Thread starter Nerdkiller
- Start date
The characters' motivations for and against the accords are explained in Civil War, not the previous movies.
Oppo
Member
Feel like the author totally disproves her point in the premise. Harry Potter also required foreknowledge, at least as much as the Marvel films (i.e. not all that much ultimately).
So did Hunger Games, so did (hah) Twilight, etc.
plus, seriously who wants to watch Batman's parents or Spider-man's uncle get blown away yet again.
So did Hunger Games, so did (hah) Twilight, etc.
plus, seriously who wants to watch Batman's parents or Spider-man's uncle get blown away yet again.
So what? The industry is delivering what the majority wants. The horror!
Nerdkiller
Membeur
Uhhh...Bobby? This isn't like you at all. This isn't even what this topic is about.
People go to pretty big lengths to paint the MCU films as some sort of labyrinth, but let's be real. If you had no problem following Terminator 2 without watching the first film (and tons if people did that), nothing in the MCU is going to be much more complicated. Civil War is the only film that used continuity from multiple previous films in any meaningful way.
Skellig Gra
Member
I'm not sure how to respond to that. The point of the thread is to discuss the merits of the argument laid out by the author. You are saying its true but don't care. Fair enough I guess.
Poor GRIMES
Banned
This isn't the claim the article is making though.
There's always plenty of other movies to see, that's a duh point.
Doctor Strange hasn't been introduced into the rest of the MCU yet.
Skellig Gra
Member
The after credits scene though.
DeathoftheEndless
Crashing this plane... with no survivors!
No, I don't think its necessary to know the origins of every character to understand a movie.
The characters in every movie you've every seen conceivably had some life before the start of the film containing many events that won't be brought up during the film as there not important to the plot. Anything from the Avengers films that a viewer needs to know to understand Civil War is brought up in the film (the clip show of destruction by The Avengers, for example).
Sure, watching the other movies will provide a richer experience, but you won't be completely lost if you don't know why The Vision had a gem in his head.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
No, she makes that claim in the middle of it. It's part of the support for her larger point.
Basically, fans have taken over the asylum, they're making increasingly insular large-scale movies, originality isn't even a concern anymore, and it's locking out people who weren't fans to begin with.
But even if you allow for the notion that fans have taken over the asylum, the large-scale movies are pretty damned accessible, originality isn't really suffering as much as its being claimed, and this "problem" isn't as much of a problem as it's being percieved, not creatively, and not financially.
Being a glib fucker and linking back to one of my own posts is exactly like me.
See above for how it's what the topic is about.
old manatee
Banned
People who are too lazy to read a plot synopsis on Wikipedia before seeing a sequel are the same people who want Dark Souls to have an easy difficulty mode.
Yes he has
TarpitCarnivore
Member
* It's weird to single out the MCU as an example of needing to "invest time" because it's a massive universe with a huge depth of content. This would be like someone complaining about Dragonball or Gundam Wing with regards to where to even begin. Either you want to invest time in it and immerse yourself, or you don't and accept standing on the outside
* Additionally, have the Avenger's films in particular been very good about hand holding as it builds to the final 40 minute battle?
*
* It seems like the overall message is the author is just tired of franchises and prefers one off films, or at a minimum a trilogy.
* Additionally, have the Avenger's films in particular been very good about hand holding as it builds to the final 40 minute battle?
*
-- This was also a weird line because the Beast movies are set so far in advance of the original series. So it's more about being immersed in the world and lore of Harry Potter than about needing to feel like Grindelwald is comparable to Voldermort
* It seems like the overall message is the author is just tired of franchises and prefers one off films, or at a minimum a trilogy.
John Kowalski
Banned
Here's the thing though, i've seen at least a new film once every week for the last two years and i they have all been great, and i have only ever seen the Guardians movies of all of the Marvel movies. Frankly the worst thing about this whole topic is that people seem to have lost sight of how many movies are made and how much variety exist from all around the world.
Vincent Grayson
Member
It's hard to say. I can't help feeling like most of the kinds of movies/tv that fall into this category mostly appeal to the kind of people that get invested, and aren't just there to see a random movie on a Sunday afternoon or whatever.
Like, my mom is in her 60s, but when whatever Marvel movie came out a year or so ago, she figured she should do the homework, and watched every MCU movie before it, and all the seasons of Agents of Shield so she could get caught up. People get into this stuff, even those who aren't total nerds.
Like, my mom is in her 60s, but when whatever Marvel movie came out a year or so ago, she figured she should do the homework, and watched every MCU movie before it, and all the seasons of Agents of Shield so she could get caught up. People get into this stuff, even those who aren't total nerds.
thats from Ragnarok - so technically doesn't take place til Fall
voodoopanda
Member
I've always sorta disliked an element of this argument when its been used about comic books in the past. I think fans of comics absolutely overstate how much you need to know just because a comic is in a shared universe or has characters who have appeared in past stories. They might have all this knowledge in their head already that adds a bit of nuance or whatever to the story, but it sure isn't anywhere near necessary.
People who are new to comics assume these fans know what they're talking about, so they start reading wikipedia pages and get overwhelmed when they try to get into a comic for the first time by learning everything that's ever happened to Spider-Man over the last 50 years. It's a whole perspective that I think is incorrect but I see it all the time.
Superhero stories generally aren't that complicated and are usually made for children. I remember being a little kid, just barely having learned to read, inheriting a bunch of my brother's old X-Men comics and being able to follow them just fine without wikipedia.
Which I think is all a different argument than there just being too many franchises and superhero movies. If you're not interested in watching these kinds of movies in the first place then it doesn't really matter if they're accessible or not.
But I think if you're interested in a movie that happens to be part of a franchise like the Marvel movies then don't be scared to watch it without doing homework. It'll probably be a lot easier to follow than you think, and if parts of it intrigue you, then you have older movies to check out if and when you want it.
People who are new to comics assume these fans know what they're talking about, so they start reading wikipedia pages and get overwhelmed when they try to get into a comic for the first time by learning everything that's ever happened to Spider-Man over the last 50 years. It's a whole perspective that I think is incorrect but I see it all the time.
Superhero stories generally aren't that complicated and are usually made for children. I remember being a little kid, just barely having learned to read, inheriting a bunch of my brother's old X-Men comics and being able to follow them just fine without wikipedia.
Which I think is all a different argument than there just being too many franchises and superhero movies. If you're not interested in watching these kinds of movies in the first place then it doesn't really matter if they're accessible or not.
But I think if you're interested in a movie that happens to be part of a franchise like the Marvel movies then don't be scared to watch it without doing homework. It'll probably be a lot easier to follow than you think, and if parts of it intrigue you, then you have older movies to check out if and when you want it.
CassidyIzABeast
Member
I think you could watch these movies without having seen any of them and be fine. Only post credit stuff would throw you off.
SolidChamp
Banned
I've been saying this for a while now; this MCU/DCU styled approach to "filmmaking" (they're not real films, they're advertisements for whatever comes next; even James Mangold said as much) has become very problematic for me.
My cynicism towards the MCU is at an all-time high.
My cynicism towards the MCU is at an all-time high.
He's also name dropped in Winter Soldier
I know it's anecdotal but people i know some friends and family pretty just watch new Marvel is out if the trailer looks interesting and looks entertaining without much care and they just sometime ask me for clarification because i'm the biggest nerd and the one who pays the most attention. They would watch it without me mind you but doesn't seem that big of deal for them .While it can seem overwhelming for some with the internet and the how successful theses movies are it doesn't seem to be that much of a big deal to the general audience.
I think that's the crux of the issue; for people that are trying to jump in now, they feel like they won't get the "full experience".
It's not Marvel, but the direction. Most studios now aren't just aiming for sequels, but cinematic universes. It's no longer like Jaws 1 to 2. It has to be Jaws Mother Edition, followed by Jaws and the Puppers. Where they are apart of an expanding universe and you need all of them at times to get everything.
Looking over this summer, but films either in one or attempting to build one.
Fast and the Furious
Guardians of the Galaxy
King Arthur
Pirates
WW
The Mummy
Transformers 5
Similar to Television where the stand alone episode is moving aside for series that have a continual story throughout seasons ala Walking Dead, GOT, etc. There is room for both still like films, but the shift definitely happened with audiences. They like the build up. And I could easily see where someone wanting to start in the middle, could be lost. If I did not know The Mummy, for example, would be CU, I'd be lost as to fuck why what happened in it(Still lost anyways and it was done poorly). Basically, every studio now wants to be MCU without putting in the work, but even MCU is getting harder to follow. With each entry becoming more reliant on previous work, nods, and setting it up that way. Black Panther could be hit with this hard, since they fully introduced him and have him a story arc in a film not of his own. So are they going to reintroduce him? What happened? Or just glance by it like you're expected to know. Or now they are saying Parker was some kid in IM2.... I don't even remember IM2.
TLDR
-Outside of MCU, every studio is just rushing into getting a piece of the pie. Hence why it's been terrible nearly everywhere else.
-With MCU, I do feel like they are even stretching me with the references, set ups to other films, and call backs. Where I'm at the point where a lot of it is starting to blend together. For me, it's a bad thing since it's become more routine. Still excited, but 3 of them a year is a lot to take in.
]
I do't buy this. We had this discussion when comic book movies first began going mainstream. "Oh now i have to read 30 years of Captain America or Iron man to get the movie". No you dont. just like you can watch Avengers stand alone, without the other 9 movies and not be "lost" in what's going on. That has to do with the writer and the director telling a competent story.
Same with Star Wars: Force Awakens. you can watch that movie without the others and generally understand what's going on. I'd say Rogue One required more backstory than any of the other movies.
I think it boils down to did the screenwriter do a competent job of writing a good, understandable story, and did the director do a good job of putting it on screen.
And Wonder Woman has LOTS of history, but again it was written, and directed in a way as to where you did not need tobe a comic book fan to appreciate it.
I do't buy this. We had this discussion when comic book movies first began going mainstream. "Oh now i have to read 30 years of Captain America or Iron man to get the movie". No you dont. just like you can watch Avengers stand alone, without the other 9 movies and not be "lost" in what's going on. That has to do with the writer and the director telling a competent story.
Same with Star Wars: Force Awakens. you can watch that movie without the others and generally understand what's going on. I'd say Rogue One required more backstory than any of the other movies.
I think it boils down to did the screenwriter do a competent job of writing a good, understandable story, and did the director do a good job of putting it on screen.
And Wonder Woman has LOTS of history, but again it was written, and directed in a way as to where you did not need tobe a comic book fan to appreciate it.
TarpitCarnivore
Member
But if you have interest in a TV do you just jump into the current season?
I think that's my qualm with this is if you have an interest in a franchise then it's only natural to do it from the beginning. You don't jump into season 4 of Lost or Breaking Bad and go "Gee, I feel left out".
Bobby Roberts
Banned
And that's the other aspect of her article that doesn't really make sense:
Take away the ornate decorating of "Hollywood is creatively bankrupt" that a lot of her argument is built on, and you're left with this premise that "The rest of us" is this larger, underserved group that's been hijacked by a small core of "fans"
But none of these movies can achieve or maintain the level of success without having big mainstream appeal.
Essentially - even if it is "fans" making these movies, there's simply not enough "Fans" for these movies to achieve the financial support they're getting. You can't build empires this large on the backs of "fans" as she's terming it.
These movies are big precisely because they're so accessible that literally anyone can walk in and enjoy them.
Now if she wanted to argue that a level of fatigue could kick in in accordance with the same fatigue that has been occurring for a while in the superhero publishing side, that's an argument I think might have some merit.
But to suggest that, essentially, normies are being locked out of the party because the nerds are driving the ship into waters too deep to swim in? I'm not buying it. The box-office and critical assessments say otherwise. It's also a weird overvaluation of how important some of this minutia really is in terms of appreciating the larger whole. Like - is not knowing what butterbeer is going to fuck you up much when you watch Prisoner of Azkaban?
It's understandable... I guess, but I mean, it's the MCU for a reason, part of the appeal is how connected several of them are. And as others said, only stuff like Civil War really do it in a way where you'd be missing out somewhat if you weren't fully caught up. That said, outside of the MCU, I really don't think anything else is really "guilty" of this. Fantastic Beasts is like the movie equivalent of Better Call Saul if anything.
For Spiderman in particular, you just need to know he's been in Civil War; hell, he even shows you clips about his time there.
The MCU should make standalone movies when possible of course, but I'm struggling to come up with the solution for this apparent problem when the majority clearly likes this approach. There's only so many comic book fans...
For Spiderman in particular, you just need to know he's been in Civil War; hell, he even shows you clips about his time there.
The MCU should make standalone movies when possible of course, but I'm struggling to come up with the solution for this apparent problem when the majority clearly likes this approach. There's only so many comic book fans...
Bingo. That Harry Potter Butterbeer line is just whining.
Not to mention there are only a grand total of 15 movies in the MCU currently out, with a 16th about to be released.
With only around 30-35 hours of film, is that really that much of an "investment" to catch up on when
A) that's really no worse than the investment in getting into a good book series
B) it's not that hard to do the research to see that "oh, hey, a few of these are skipable"
C) the movie police isn't going to take away your movie license for reading the wikis in order to catch up
And if that is still a pain, then nobody is going to fault you for paying attention all together. Just don't about it when the rest of us are enjoying these movies.
Nah man I always recommend starting Spider-Man comics at #1 or else you'll be totally lost about why J. Jonah Jameson is shaking his first at Spider-Man. It takes a few years to get to the current stuff, but it's well worth it to understand the complex motivations for The Lizard and Doctor Octopus.
BassForever
Member
Wait how does Wonder woman get a pass for being stand alone despite starting with a call back to batman v superman, but not dr strange which is entierly stand alone minus post credit scenes.
CadetMahoney
Member
Poor GRIMES
Banned
I understand her point that greater serialization makes it more difficult for people to enter franchises. I disagree that the films are more accessible than ever considering the amount of franchises that are currently in rotation today in film.
I mean, it's obviously not financially bankrupt, the MCU and similar franchises make bank. Creatively though? I think another point that the author brings up is that there really aren't any original commercially successful films anymore on the same level as franchise films. There's no Titanic, no Ghost, no E.T., anymore in this era that has the same cultural mindshare that franchise films have. I might be wrong on this though, I'm just going off of memory.
Civil War made over a billion dollars worldwide, so clearly this is not a problem for the vast, vast, vast majority of moviegoers on the planet. This is what the audience wants.
You're not wrong, IMO, but I would argue that for most non-comic nerds, the MCU is, for all intents and purposes, original content. It grew organically into a juggernaut because of its quality, not because people automatically cared about the properties involved. Nobody did. That was the whole problem Marvel had in the first place.
Subpar Spatula
Banned
So?
These are negatives. If the audience has to fill in parts of the movie that should otherwise be explained then it has failed to create a good story.
I edited an earlier post that elaborated my thoughts on what you just mentioned:
Also, as the backlog for the MCU continues to grow every year, it gets ever easier for a person to be completely overwhelmed and simply lose interest in following.
I dunno, I think if you're walking into Captain America 3 you should understand that there might be some stuff you didn't know about if you missed the previous movies. That's sort of how sequels work.
We had Get Out this year.
We do this with sequels and such though.
Theodoricos
Member
This seems like it would only be a problem if you are into the superhero genre, though it is true that if you're looking for a good action film from the past few years, there are only a few that come to mind that aren't part of some cinematic universe.
As far as other genres, there are tons of standalone movies being made each year, thankfully.
As far as other genres, there are tons of standalone movies being made each year, thankfully.
But Captain America 3 has a crap load of people that weren't in Captain America 2 or 1. I'd say it's a little different.
And Baby Driver
Subpar Spatula
Banned
Good thing there are elements of other MCU in Captain America 3 that aren't explained in 1 and 2.
Your point is 100% moot.
My point is don't walk into a sequel expecting every single minor plot point from a previous movie spoon fed to you.
DeathoftheEndless
Crashing this plane... with no survivors!
How can you get the full experience of something without experiencing the full thing?