TheBlackMarvel
Member
How does an Italian character having an Italian accent lessen his character?!?!
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The importance of Black characters in video games and catharsis in Assassin's Creed
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How does an Italian character having an Italian accent lessen his character?!?!
People are complaining, not because its offensive, but because it doesn't fit the norm or it sounds out of place. No one is saying "Im offended that a french is not speaking in a french accent."
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
The series is completely inconsistent, Altair is American but all of the other people have a variety of accents, many of them "vaguely middle eastern". AC2, Brotherhood, Revelations have regional accents for people. ACIII is set in an English speaking country although I don't recall what the native American villagers were speaking with, barely played that game.
In all cases it was a conscious design choice, there's no point bringing up in-game excuses for accent variation.
You'll have to explain what is problematic about the idea that foreign countries have different accents to ourselves, or why having Italians speak with italian accents, Syrians speak with Syrian accents, French speaking with French accents and so on is harmful or undesirable. This seems to be some kind of discussion I've missed out on.
ChawlieTheFair
pip pip cheerio you slags!
Doesn't really bother me, but I can see the case that they've got this huge super realistic city/animations/ etc, yet the voice is speaking English. And it's not even full on English, it constantly switches on the fly. I think you can set the VO to be Italian/French for whatever game with English subtitles, so it fixes the problem somewhat.
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
It's nice to have, but not ideal, at least in AC:U where I thought the subtitles were too small on the screen, didn't linger long enough, and the lip sync was off because it was all coded for people speaking English.
That is the exact reason why. People will remember him as the Italian assassin with the Italian accent. Less people will remember him by his naive playboy youth or how he grew up to preach "Virtue" to Machiavelli.
TheBlackMarvel
Member
From what I understand, the constant switching is meant to be an effect of the animus. Personally, I don't care here or there which accent they use, what concerns me is why a region appropriate accent is offensive.
You think his character would be improved if only people would remember him as the Italian assassin with the British (or more likely, American) accent?
TheBlackMarvel
Member
Sorry, double post.
Quadraphonic
Member
ChawlieTheFair
pip pip cheerio you slags!
Because I guess it's sort of generalizing, i.e the middle-eastern accents in the first game and the Italian accents in the second. Would be sort of similar to a game set in Ireland yet everyone is speaking in an English accent. They are close enough regionally/culturally similar enough, but not quite the same thing. Not really a huge deal but maybe dismissive.
Edit: And they can get away with it, as the primary audience, i.e the west would mostly be ignorant of such differences, doesn't make it right though.
The same reason why black people might find black characters with "gangsta" accents to be offensive. As some one who is considered foreign I don't want to have a default foreign accent on a character who is representative of me. Many foreign people do their best to speak fluent English and many don't appreciate the accents that get slapped onto foreign characters.
just to illustrate my point: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rQHHgHf5s4#t=35
If he spoke fluent English no one would even consider that aspect about him. It would not even be a conversation.
TheBlackMarvel
Member
That's literally what I'm getting at, giving a character an accent from another country is far more culturally dismissive. It's not even putting in the slightest bit of effort. Giving an Irish character an English accent (for example) would be unlikely to go down well. Hell, give a character from any of the countries making up the UK an accent from any one of the others would be likely to raise a shitstorm.
Professor Beef
Banned
Motherfucker it's not always about you.
ChawlieTheFair
pip pip cheerio you slags!
I'm not totally sure/may be confused, but isn't that happening with AC1 and AC2? I'm ignorant of the region-specific accents for Italy/the Middle-east but I'm gonna take a safe guess that the American voice actors just put on accents that sounded close-enough without really properly understanding which region/country they were from or in. Again I don't know though.
TheBlackMarvel
Member
You don't think people would find that weird? Even though you just brought up an example of people finding it weird.
Right, then.
It is the case in AC1, where Altair is generic American accent dude. But AC2 has him trying to put on an Italian accent as an Italian character in Italy. It's the difference between saying "fuck it, I'm not even going to bother with the accent" and at least aiming for the same country. Region specific to that level (city, county etc) is probably asking too much but to get it to at least match the npc accents? I don't think that's unreasonable.
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
I can't watch that vid, I'm at work.
Your example of gangta accents is not a good analogue, since that is one particular subculture and series of stereotypes being applied to all people of that type - if we transposed this to Assassin's Creed, it would be like if all the Italians in AC2 spoke and acted with stereotypical Mafioso language and mannerisms. But Italians do speak with Italian accents in real life. They have regional accents, which I would like to see respected as much as possible, e.g. people in Venezia don't sound identical to people in Napoli. But that is a broadly separate complaint from "it's offensive for Italians to have accents if their dialogue is in English".
Do you really think that would be the case? Keep in mind, you just posted this:
So obviously there is a very recent precedent for people focusing on a character not speaking with what people in general would consider an area-accurate dialect/accent (even if it's silly for the character to just be speaking English with an accent).
See the difference with your example is that most people I know who are from Ireland or Scotland take pride in their accent. It is how their families and friends talk and is considered normal in Ireland and Scotland respectively. English is their first language and they grow up by learning their respective dialect. It is not considered undesirable to them. Its like how a Texan will take pride in his accent similar to how a Bostonian will take pride in his accent.
However people whose first language isn't English and they do their best to learn and speak fluent English don't want to be associated with an accent. It is considered undesirable to them.
Replying to ThoseDeafMutes
Sure, Italians do speak with Italian accent in real life but do you think that Italians find that accent to be a desirable characteristic. As for people from different regions of Italy like Napoli and Venezia, I think you are wrong. They have different dialect within the Italian language much like how different dialects exist within English speaking countries like Britain and America. However i don't think different English accents exist within different regions of Italy.
and that dude ain't even the first Syrian assassin protagonist in videogames
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exile_(1988_video_game_series)
But yeah, as someone who isn't black, white or Japanese I've never had issues playing as characters I don't "connect" with, that's just kinda part of the territory of engaging in all culture for me. I noticed though that whenever I have the option I avoid picking white ppl, so maybe that makes me the real racist???
I did deeply relate to the author talking about reactions to what you mention in "mixed company" sometimes I forget what crowd I'm rolling with and assume everyone else share's a deep knowledge of canonical Rap City videos.
m_shortpants
Member
Not just that, but he had a MONOTONE american accent. Which was strange given that other characters had accents.
TheBlackMarvel
Member
Fair enough, in my circles, everyone I've met with an accent has given not a single thought to it.
I think you've made way too much of a generalisation there. Sure, some people may find their accent embarrassing but I'd wager not even close to most people feel this way.
Sure with Arno i agree they did go a little overboard with a more British accent but what i am talking about is fluent English. The type that isn't leaning too heavily on any single region. It is the type you would hear on a formal announcements.
Good article. I appreciate the article's author is applying personal viewpoint, and thought the main thrust of it is great, but the article is very American-centric where it discusses all black characters in gaming as a whole. Although to be fair I suppose a large portion of the characters in computer games (at least the western ones) are from the US. I'd like characters from the whole spectrum of humanity to avoid stereotypes, not just one minority in one country. Still, it's a refreshing take on things and a good read.
As for dodgy accents in Ass. Creed, isn't it supposed to be the futuristic software filling in the blanks and auto-translating or something? I thought that was why you had people in the crusades speaking modern US English, and British soldiers during the war of independence speaking modern English- they'd have sounded much more like our American cousins at the time (or, rather, the other way around), before several hundred years creates the deviation in accents. Handily, it's all explained as trying to make it easier for the descendants to understand or to at least differentiate between dialects in case it's important for them. I thought that was one of the nicer bits of fluff in AC, at least it's an in-character reason to have very modern accents in a series that otherwise pays a lot of attention to recreating the tone of it's historical settings. I haven't played Liberation yet but will pick it up, sounds cool.
Edit: changed my mind on second reading
As for dodgy accents in Ass. Creed, isn't it supposed to be the futuristic software filling in the blanks and auto-translating or something? I thought that was why you had people in the crusades speaking modern US English, and British soldiers during the war of independence speaking modern English- they'd have sounded much more like our American cousins at the time (or, rather, the other way around), before several hundred years creates the deviation in accents. Handily, it's all explained as trying to make it easier for the descendants to understand or to at least differentiate between dialects in case it's important for them. I thought that was one of the nicer bits of fluff in AC, at least it's an in-character reason to have very modern accents in a series that otherwise pays a lot of attention to recreating the tone of it's historical settings. I haven't played Liberation yet but will pick it up, sounds cool.
Edit: changed my mind on second reading
TAJ
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
I had no problem with how they did it in ACII, I don't think having an accent that matched their locale would be offensive, unless it was horrifically exaggerated or done in a mocking way.
No one knows what they would have sounded like anyway. Accents change over time and the first audio recordings were made in 1853.
Just look at the debate about what English accents sounded like before they started to diverge from American ones, and that's just a few hundred years ago.
cool, show me proof this is true
ProfessorMoran
Member
As a non-black I feel I can relate to CJ from GTA San Andreas.
Looking through my Steam games list, the games with the most generic stories and worlds are also the ones that have the most boring cast of characters. It seems that if writers take time to flesh out the world they are creating, then diversity of culture, race and history occur naturally. The four games that pop in my head first when i think of a well fleshed out world are: The Last of Us, Half-Life 2, The Walking Dead and Mirrors Edge. And, not-so-coincidentally, these games all have quite a diverse set of main characters.
The same is true for the Assassins Creed series. The games are built on the idea that you can experience the culture, people and history of a certain location and era, so it makes sense that they would also include the ones that the author of the article appreciates the most.
Maybe the way to obtain more of what the author wants (which sounds like more ethnic diversity in game characters) is for developers to put a greater emphasis on world-building, pacing, and explaining the story rather than gameplay and graphics. I personally would be very happy with that because other than CSGO, good stories are the only reason I play games anymore, and although the AS franchise does good on certain things such as world building and exploration, it has failed horribly at creating an engaging story for a majority of its games (go here, kill this person you don't care about, go over there and pick up this item you don't care about, etc...)
The same is true for the Assassins Creed series. The games are built on the idea that you can experience the culture, people and history of a certain location and era, so it makes sense that they would also include the ones that the author of the article appreciates the most.
Maybe the way to obtain more of what the author wants (which sounds like more ethnic diversity in game characters) is for developers to put a greater emphasis on world-building, pacing, and explaining the story rather than gameplay and graphics. I personally would be very happy with that because other than CSGO, good stories are the only reason I play games anymore, and although the AS franchise does good on certain things such as world building and exploration, it has failed horribly at creating an engaging story for a majority of its games (go here, kill this person you don't care about, go over there and pick up this item you don't care about, etc...)
Going to give this one a proper read through in a second but man does that line about "Dres" and "Neil D. Tysons" ring a bit loudly in my head.
I've always wanted to see more ethnically diverse gaming characters (specifically black characters as a black gamer) that aren't pigeon holed into into these looks, respective roles, or tropes. It's mostly because as a kid I didn't get to see a lot of games with characters who were explicitly black or of black featured in the genres and styles of games I most enjoyed (predominantly Japanese console games). As such I've begun to feet pretty strongly recently when games in these styles attempt to represent without the use of poor stereotypes or when games that only benefit from the option don't go the extra mile for whatever reason.
In the end it might not matter much as with the games I've brought up (in Pokemon and Splatoon) as it's just another character zipping around the screen in another game play design, but I feel like it matters enough towards giving everyone an icon to feel included through especially as the new era of designers come into the field with new franchises and concepts to push the medium forward. I'd also like to chip in on that front whenever given the opportunity.
I've always wanted to see more ethnically diverse gaming characters (specifically black characters as a black gamer) that aren't pigeon holed into into these looks, respective roles, or tropes. It's mostly because as a kid I didn't get to see a lot of games with characters who were explicitly black or of black featured in the genres and styles of games I most enjoyed (predominantly Japanese console games). As such I've begun to feet pretty strongly recently when games in these styles attempt to represent without the use of poor stereotypes or when games that only benefit from the option don't go the extra mile for whatever reason.
In the end it might not matter much as with the games I've brought up (in Pokemon and Splatoon) as it's just another character zipping around the screen in another game play design, but I feel like it matters enough towards giving everyone an icon to feel included through especially as the new era of designers come into the field with new franchises and concepts to push the medium forward. I'd also like to chip in on that front whenever given the opportunity.
User 73706
Banned
Although this isn't about representation in games, in terms of the workforce then if anyone is interested in recent developer demographics, IGDA released these numbers back in June. (Their prior report was back in 2005)
https://c.ymcdn.com/sites/www.igda....B5D58FF25DC7/IGDA_DSS_2014-Summary_Report.pdf
Regarding the hiring of minorities in tech, there was this report (note that this is tech overall, not games industry specific) - i.e. minorities get tech degrees, but only about half ends up being hired:
https://c.ymcdn.com/sites/www.igda....B5D58FF25DC7/IGDA_DSS_2014-Summary_Report.pdf
Regarding the hiring of minorities in tech, there was this report (note that this is tech overall, not games industry specific) - i.e. minorities get tech degrees, but only about half ends up being hired:
GoodCoffeeJoey
Banned
Interview with a historian about the historical context, slavery and black life; as portrayed in AC Liberation and Freedom Cry.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwJzj9g5HNI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwJzj9g5HNI
SamuelSupreme
Banned
Bookmarked. Will read when not so stoned
Vigilant Walrus
Member
I am wondering if Kojima will touch on this in MGS5. It might simply be more about child soldier/diamonds angle but there is hope.
DOWN
Banned
If it doesn't matter for you, why downplay it's clear importance for many others? It's not people in the hobby to "checkmark" various "social principles." Maybe you need to find out what representation is.
Representation has a whole lot of ramifications on self-esteem, empathy, and social conscience, none of which are considered to be exclusive benefits received only by people trying to make a social checklist out of your hobby instead of playing games.
Highest paid musician many years in a row.
Thank you for sharing your experience. Being a black male, I loved every bit of this read. The joy that you had playing well written minority characters is exaclty why we should see more of it.
I just hope more developers are brave enough to develop positive minority characters without feeling the need to add some ridiculous stereotype.