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"The Last Night" (Milkshake Duck incarnate) E3 Trailer [XBO/Win10/Steam 2018]
- Thread starter NeoRaider
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Idiots who preach egalitarianism over feminism are either horribly naive, or willfully blind. To be fair on the dev, I was a moron when I was 17. Doesn't excuse the recent shit thats come out of his twitter though.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
Lovecraft, for sure. Frank Miller took a turn for the worse both in terms quality and ideology in later works, but the seeds of his shitty options are clear in classics like Sin City and TDKR. Burroughs is a debatable case, though I'd err heavily on the side of shitty, even though I genuinely love his writing. Some people think Ayn Rand is the tits for some reason.
Even outside of books you have behemoths like Wagner whose tone poems and operatic cycles are suffused with his proto-Nazi bullshit. Christ, modern film language has its roots deep inside a reprehensible director and an equally reprehensible film.
And every one of those authors have been criticized for their shit-tier views. Hell, Wagner's work is even banned in Israel.
Nevertheless, it's silly to compare the developer to people like Lovecraft or Miller. The latter at least created something new, whereas this dev is merely pillaging existing cyberpunk themes and mixing them with his regressive views. His game will not become a new classic like the Cthulhu mythos or TDKR, which would then allow other writers to use those settings while removing the racism/sexism.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
And rightly so. I'm not saying the developer shouldn't be criticised (he should), I'm challenging the (I believe) absurd notion that authored work based on shitty views can't have artistic merit or importance.
Miller created something new? His most famous works are with well established characters. Sin City literally 'pillages' Noir themes and tropes.
While your examples are irrelevant to the discussion at hand, they are also off since you are comparing the early work of a young developer to old/dead authors and their body of work.
I wasn't the one who brought up these authors in the first place. In fact, I'm arguing that they shouldn't be compared with the developer.
Right now there are people in this thread such as Contica who are posting lists of "controversial" authors to justify the developer.
Baron von Loathsome
Member
I'd add Read Only Memories.
Random Human
They were trying to grab your prize. They work for the mercenary. The masked man.
One thing that always bugs me about these sort of discussions is when people justify their interest in it by citing "good art by bad people" that inevitably is a handful of classic works from decades or even centuries ago. This is not giving up a classic. This is a game that isn't out yet, no one knows if it's good, no one knows anything about it beyond it has a cool art style. Something like Ender's Game would be viewed very differently if that book was unknown to you, was coming out in six months, your interest was largely based on it having a spaceship on the cover, and all you knew was at some point its homophobic author said it was about "bugger" aliens coming to Earth to turn all humans gay. I mean, that is not a difficult pass to make, especially when there are so many books out every year for you to choose from.
Also, Brigador (recently given a free update)
Some of us don't want to financially support a GG supporter who openly spreads his hateful views, no matter how much or how little their misogyny, transphobia, racism etc. plays into the story.
dantevsninjas
Member
I don't know if you can hear me up there above it all, but some of us understand what GG was all about, and know all we need to know about anyone who openly supported that hate group.
This isn't a treatise on differing tax policies or beliefs about the role of government. We don't need to consume hateful content to know that it's hateful.
Admiral Woofington
Member
I wouldnt even pose the question to be honest. Gaf is highly anti piracy. I don't think there's any way you're going to get the forum to agree that piracy is ever OK when other means to get the game exist (ie wait for a possible humble bundle)
An individual can always make a justification; it's up to that individual to determine what is just.
Jerry
Member
I hope that it comes across as hypothetical
I mean if you (not you, but the hypothetical person) are so strongly against the supposed message of the game, why would you want to invest your time in it? Saying that someone pirates the game to not support the creator for his views in the game is just a bad excuse to play something for free. It's no better than the common excuse, "the games are so shitty they don't deserve my money!" Yet those people want to play the games.
That's absolutely fucked, how about that.
If your issue is a malignant, subversive message in the game, then stealing that game to experience it anyway goes beyond morally bankrupt into being self-defeating.
If it's not about the message in the game, then stealing something you want and justifying it by saying the person behind it has despicable views is also nonsense.
Doctoglethorpe
Member
The CEO of Marvel is a strong Trump supporter. I don't see people suddenly boycotting marvel movies, or anything else for that matter, because of it.
I don't care what one guy thinks. Unless he is he sole creator of a thing, that thing is beyond him.
I don't care what one guy thinks. Unless he is he sole creator of a thing, that thing is beyond him.
Maybe because his Trumpism doesn't filter down to the marvel movies that are written and directed by non-shit people.
There are only 6 people working on this game and two of them are confirmed gamergators including the main writer.
More_Badass
Member
That's the issue here. Being an indie game, it's a super small team and the main designer and lead writer are building the story and world around that ideology and perspective
plushyp
Member
I honestly want to watch a gameplay demo to see the story and the actual influence of their views on it.
Doctoglethorpe
Member
So giving your money to a bad person to spend on bad things is okay, but experiencing some fiction influenced by them isn't?
The way I see it, you HAVE to separate creators from creations or you'll find a reason to boycott just about everything. Obviously there would be a limit, wouldn't want to knowingly give money to a child raping serial killer or some shit. But a guy with a stupid opinion on a thing? Whatever.
The way I see it, you HAVE to separate creators from creations or you'll find a reason to boycott just about everything. Obviously there would be a limit, wouldn't want to knowingly give money to a child raping serial killer or some shit. But a guy with a stupid opinion on a thing? Whatever.
You're missing the biggest point here. This isn't some dumb view separate from the product. This is the creator stating outright that the dumb view IS the product. The story is, according to him, heavily influenced by that. Yeah the marvel CEO supports Trump but he's not writing the next superhero movie to be about an orange Demi god in the White House that's unfairly portrayed in the media, etc. The movies aren't pro Trump.
It's not just a guy with a stupid opinion. It's a guy with a stupid opinion stating his heavily story based game is completely reliant on and written around that stupid opinion.
it's not like roman polanski is out here making movies about raping young girls
there's nothing to separate here, the creation a reflection of its creator
No. Your time is not a rewewable resource. Your money is. Why would you give up the thing you can't get back to save the thing you can?
I feel this stance dismisses the very real impact of GamerGate on the life certain people in the industry. It's not just "a stupid opinion on a thing". He was part of a movement that engaged in targeted harassment of individuals because of their sex, gender, race or ideological position. Trying to pass it as just a dumb joke, or something that isn't worth fighting against because it doesn't affect you, is exactly what allowed GamerGaters to target their victims with so much impunity.
But, hey. If that's the hill you decide to die on, suit yourself.
Bloodporne
Member
Based on the writer's statements earlier in this thread and some other info out there, I suspect the actual gameplay will be somewhat anemic. It seems to be very story-focused from what I can tell at least. It's being described as a "Cinematic Platformer" but the team member posting earlier confirmed there was no platforming, "hard" boss fights or particularly skill based gameplay, or that's what I read out of it. As a whole, to me that kind of sounds like well, not a lot of meat and probably tons of style...which wouldn't be a bad thing I guess if the story hadn't been pointed out as being seemingly heavy-handedly based on the creators' controversial stances.
Basically, a 2d walking simulator.
Holundrian
Unconfirmed Member
I think all what some people are trying to express is that their limit is not wanting to financially enrich someone that engages it movements of hate and harassment to the best of their knowledge and ability.
I don't feel like it's a real argument just because you can't be 100% consistent in making decisions that only benefit people you don't find morally reprehensible you should just give up altogether.
If that makes me a hypocrite I'll gladly wear that label.
Bloodporne
Member
Yeah, that's the concise version. Obviously I haven't seen any other footage than everyone else here, but I thought the team member's (writer?) comments regarding the gameplay seemed slightly dismissive and unclear which lead me to believe he was just trying to not say it's basically a walking simulator as to not alienate people like myself essentially asking if there's a real game behind the gorgeous facade.
For more info about cinematic platformer and games in the genre there's a great topic in Neogaf http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=989633
More_Badass
Member
This was always going to be a slower-paced explore/interact with the world and characters/get into shootouts and chases kind of game
That was like the main appeal besides the visuals, and why it was so interesting. That it wasn't just a platfomer, but more story focused, day-in-the-life crime thriller
Bloodporne
Member
Cool thanks, I wasn't familiar with the sub-genre term at all despite having played Prince Of Persia (and always preferring the very original) since probably around 1993. I loved Flashback and Blackthorne as well so I have to check some of these games out.
EDIT: I find myself really drawn to those GBC Tomb Raider titles...
yurinka
Member
No, it's an excuse to pirate games.
If you play this game you should support the work of the team (including one of the creators who may have posted things you don't agree some years ago) you should buy it because it isn't F2P. All games are the product of several people working hard during years, so they deserve to be paid for the people who use their product even if we don't like their opinions on something.
If you don't want to support them, simply just don't play the game. I wouldn't care about these tweets, because everyone has their own opinions, if we would agree in everything we would be robots or would live in a dictatorship instead of being free human beings.
Devs and companies typically try to be politically correct to avoid this kind of things so most of them don't share their opinions publicly about different potentially controversial topics like politics, religion, etc. And if they do is to be politically correct or (like Rockstar or Devolver) cool with something acceptable by the majority and still mostly politically correct.
If all devs (like any other person or company) would be open and transparent with their personal opinions, make sure you would disagree with almost everyone, especially if you go to check all their social media posts until many years ago.
His opinion about gamer gate made sense at the begginning because it started as what he said. Maybe 3 years ago, when he tweeted this, it still didn't derailed hard into mass harassing. There was a lot of people in gamergate and it covered many topics. Some were about ethics in gaming journalist and others were harassing people.
In any case, according to the 3 years old tweets the guy of this game only had an opinion about gamer gate, he didn't harass anyone.
He is the one being harassed and boycotted one right now for having had an opinion 3 years ago that wasn't politically correct.
Regarding gamer gate targetting people because of their sex, gender, race or ideological positions, I think the reason should be somethine else, because -at least what I saw on news or social media from time to time, I didn't follow closely gamer gate- the targeted people were always the same few individuals. And there is a lot of people in the industry with this sex, gender, race or ideological position that are more well known that the harassed ones and weren't harassed.
I'm not knocking on the idea, games like Oxenfree do it and they do it well. It's clear that this is a narrative experience first and foremost, which makes the choice of narrative all the more tragic for those who are genuinely interested.
hey_it's_that_dog
benevolent sexism
Just play it and don't tell anyone like half the people in this thread are going to do.
You really think that half the people in this thread are willing to swallow horrible alt-right fan-fiction as long as it has nice pixels?
Pretty insulting, IMHO.
You are the other half then, congrats!
No, I don't think you can divide this thread into two.
Amazing. He's outright stated the premise of the game is anti-feminist, he still follows and likes tweets from gamergate figures, and he's posted alt-right related stuff even in the past months. I like how every page someone comes in and goes "nah the guy's actually good now" ignoring all past discussion.
Bloodporne
Member
I assume the poster didn't literally mean HALF when saying "half the people".
gamergate is about ethics in game journalism!!!
In all seriousness, the fact that you wrote "I didn't follow closely gamer gate" while trying to excuse just about every single action of gamergate is kind of sad. It 100% was just targeting people for reasons of sexism and racism.
I don't think we need to get into the definition of gamergate discussion again, but given your tone of "someone said something you disagree with" as if racism and sexism are valid ideological positions to hold, I doubt you'd care if we did.
The creator still seems to hold these views, I doubt that has ever changed.
Most of the crap isn't 3 years old, they still retweet GG comments. His transphobic comments are hardly 2 months old.
And this isn't about political correctness, don't act dumb. Considering transgender people freaks who have no reason to think of their gender what they do and claiming there's no science behind it is not an issue of political correctness, but human rights and anyone trying to trample those rights are just bad people. It has fuck all to do with them just not being politically correct.
Political correctness mostly has to do with the language used and how one interacts with or talks about people of certain groups. As in, try not to use words like nigger and retard or deliberately refer to a transgender person as a he when she's a she. Basically, act with at least some modicum of respect towards people and do not use negative language just because what they are. The idea behind political correctness is one of "words matter, there are a lot of words that have usage which has more or less negative connonations and wide scale usage of such words in the society upholds negative views/stigma towards certain things" or the like. Basically, don't act like a huge dick towards other people by using deragotary words/phrases.
Spreading hateful, ignorant ideologies goes beyond political correctness. It goes beyond just using a deragotary word and insults. "Go suck a dick, faggot" is politically incorrect. "If gays got into power in the future and ruled the world, everyone would be turned gay and sodomized" is just pure idiocy and showcases something about the creator's worldview that goes far beyond political incorrectness.
Has he, at any time in the past three years, denounced what GamerGate became? Has he ever openly distanced himself from the movement after seeing the borderline-terrorist tactics employed by some of its members? Has he ever condemned the cyber- and physical bullying conducted against their victims? If the answer is "no" to any of those questions, then excuse me, but I'm not going to change my mind about him or his game. Even if he never actually went and harassed some he himself personally (which I don't I know if he did, but I wouldn't be surprised), he was part of the movement that enabled those actions.
Making yourself look all repentant and ashamed of your action when you've been caught red handed only proves that you wouldn't have felt that way if you hadn't been caught.
And, again, GamerGate was never "not politically correct": it was a violent, hateful group from the very start that only escalated its tactics as time went on. But this bullshit about it being "about ethics in journalism" is that. Bullshit.
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