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The Literary Works of J.R.R. Tolkien Megathread |OT| Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo

A

AngmarsKing701

Member
Edmond Dantès;55472080 said:
An epic poem akin to The Aeneid, The Iliad, Sigurd and Gudrun set in the Arthurian mythos.
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Hmmm. Will wait for impressions. Sounds like it could be one of those things you read while sitting by a fire smoking a pipe and wearing your smoking jacket.
 
E

Edmond Dantès

Dantès the White
AngmarsKing701 said:
Hmmm. Will wait for impressions. Sounds like it could be one of those things you read while sitting by a fire smoking a pipe and wearing your smoking jacket.
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As well the poem, there's an analysis at the end. Something very similar to Christopher's History of Middle-earth series, detailing the development of the work and inspirations etc.
 
E

Edmond Dantès

Dantès the White
The first Fall of Arthur inspired artwork.

fallarthurrl.jpg
 
F

fredrancour

Member
DrForester said:
News from across the LEGO sea!

TJymgRD.jpg
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I have already squee-ed with immature nerd-glee in the last 2 threads it was posted in, but when this thread is right there on my subscription list, why not do it a third time?

Oh yes my wallet is forfeit.

*cue a repost of Edmond dropping the "So that what he made was naught" quote*
 
V

vagabondarts

Member
I love the King Arthur mythos, as well as Tolkien.
Greatly anticipating his take on it.

Now to buy the hardcover or kindle version?
 
V

vagabondarts

Member
Loxley said:
Hardcover all the way.
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Honestly, I might get both. If I'm on vacation or on the road I won't want to drag the HC along/risk messing it up.

Wish publishers would bundle digital versions with hard copies similar to the way film publishers bundle both DVD and bluray for movies.
 
C

Candeldandel

Member
vagabondarts said:
Honestly, I might get both. If I'm on vacation or on the road I won't want to drag the HC along/risk messing it up.

Wish publishers would bundle digital versions with hard copies similar to the way film publishers bundle both DVD and bluray for movies.
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Both! :) I would do the same.
 
L

Loxley

Member
Jake Tower said:
Hmmm, I thought Tolkien hated the Arthur legends as 'imported French' romance...
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I'm sure Dantes can shed some more light on this, but speculating based off of what I know about Tolkien himself as well as the Arthurian legend, I would guess that he likely hated how "Frenchified" and romanticized the Arthurian legend had become over the centuries - particularly (and especially) in the early 19th century, when interest in King Arthur received a notable revival as a result of the Romanticism movement happening in Europe at the time.

By the time Tolkien was around, the public image and perception of King Arthur had been updated and changed to fit the times. He was chivalrous, romantic, and a gentlemen. Whereas his early medieval depictions (10th century and prior) were much more ferocious, the guy was a brave and occasionally borderline power-hungry leader on top of being a fierce warrior (various medieval depictions of Arthur claim he killed anywhere between 300-900 enemies himself in a single battle) who would giggle as he killed giants. He was a British hero in the highest sense, saving the land from monsters, beasts, and the invading Anglo-Saxons.

At almost nearly the same time though (around the 11th and 12 centuries), French versions of the story depicted him as rather lazy, but he was also seen as a wise and gentle-hearted soul who would often get side-lined in favor of Gawain or Lancelot taking the lead roles. Much of the modern associations we have with the Arthurian legend (such as the quest for the Holy Grail and Merlin playing a huge role) were of French invention. The French romances involving Arthur gained a lot of popularity, likely thanks large in part to French influence on English culture in general after the Norman conquest of England in 1066.
 
C

CrunchyFrog

Member
I've been working on a 20 page comparative essay analyzing the influence of Wagner's "Ring" cycle on the Lord of the Rings books and the subsequent films and score. Really fascinating some of the uncanny similarities not only in the narratives themselves but the circumstances in which both were written and the structure of the works as a whole. Tolkien himself denies any connection, which may be valid since both works drew from the same Germanic/Scandinavian mythology for inspiration. I'd heard that last bit before, but I had no idea that he even went so far as to develop an active dislike for Wagner's interpretation of Germanic folklore. It's odd, considering that he and C.S. Lewis both worked on a translation of Die Walkure together.

It's also given me a far greater appreciation for just how spectacular and monumental Shore's work on that soundtrack was. Having worked on that score for nearly 3 years solid, he basically wrote his own Ring cycle, and with the Hobbit scores he'll have a continuous work that actually even outstrips Wagner's own by several hours. It also lead me to the discovery of Doug Adams' comprehensive analysis of the film score and the wonderful accompanying texts.

If only I didn't absolutely despise essay writing I might have enjoyed this ordeal more, but as it is this fucking paper has sapped the living daylights outta me this past month. I'll be glad to finally graduate in 2 and a half weeks.
 
E

Edmond Dantès

Dantès the White
Loxley said:
I'm sure Dantes can shed some more light on this, but speculating based off of what I know about Tolkien himself as well as the Arthurian legend, I would guess that he likely hated how "Frenchified" and romanticized the Arthurian legend had become over the centuries - particularly (and especially) in the early 19th century, when interest in King Arthur received a notable revival as a result of the Romanticism movement happening in Europe at the time.

By the time Tolkien was around, the public image and perception of King Arthur had been updated and changed to fit the times. He was chivalrous, romantic, and a gentlemen. Whereas his early medieval depictions (10th century and prior) were much more ferocious, the guy was a brave and occasionally borderline power-hungry leader on top of being a fierce warrior (various medieval depictions of Arthur claim he killed anywhere between 300-900 enemies himself in a single battle) who would giggle as he killed giants. He was a British hero in the highest sense, saving the land from monsters, beasts, and the invading Anglo-Saxons.

At almost nearly the same time though (around the 11th and 12 centuries), French versions of the story depicted him as rather lazy, but he was also seen as a wise and gentle-hearted soul who would often get side-lined in favor of Gawain or Lancelot taking the lead roles. Much of the modern associations we have with the Arthurian legend (such as the quest for the Holy Grail and Merlin playing a huge role) were of French invention. The French romances involving Arthur gained a lot of popularity, likely thanks large in part to French influence on English culture in general after the Norman conquest of England in 1066.
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Not much to add (as you explained it all very well), except what Tolkien had to say on the matter:
But an equally basic passion of mine ab initio was for myth (not allegory!) and for fairy-story, and above all for heroic legend on the brink of fairy-tale and history, of which there is far too little in the world (accessible to me) for my appetite.

I was an undergraduate before thought and experience revealed to me that these were not divergent interests – opposite poles of science and romance – but integrally related. I am not 'learned' in the matters of myth and fairy-story, however, for in such things (as far as known to me) I have always been seeking material, things of a certain tone and air, and not simple knowledge. Also – and here I hope I shall not sound absurd – I was from early days grieved by the poverty of my own beloved country: it had no stories of its own (bound up with its tongue and soil), not of the quality that I sought, and found (as an ingredient) in legends of other lands.

There was Greek, and Celtic, and Romance, Germanic, Scandinavian, and Finnish (which greatly affected me); but nothing English, save impoverished chap-book stuff. Of course there was and is all the Arthurian world, but powerful as it is, it is imperfectly naturalized, associated with the soil of Britain but not with English; and does not replace what I felt to be missing. For one thing its 'faerie' is too lavish, and fantastical, incoherent and repetitive. For another and more important thing: it is involved in, and explicitly contains the Christian religion. For reasons which I will not elaborate, that seems to me fatal. Myth and fairy-story must, as all art, reflect and contain in solution elements of moral and religious truth (or error), but not explicit, not in the known form of the primary 'real' world. (I am speaking, of course, of our present situation, not of ancient pagan, pre-Christian days. And I will not repeat what I tried to say in my essay, which you read.)

Do not laugh! But once upon a time (my crest has long since fallen) I had a mind to make a body of more or less connected legend, ranging from the large and cosmogonic, to the level of romantic fairy-story-the larger founded on the lesser in contact with the earth, the lesser drawing splendour from the vast backcloths – which I could dedicate simply to: to England; to my country. It should possess the tone and quality that I desired, somewhat cool and clear, be redolent of our 'air' (the clime and soil of the North West, meaning Britain and the hither parts of Europe: not Italy or the Aegean, still less the East), and, while possessing (if I could achieve it) the fair elusive beauty that some call Celtic (though it is rarely found in genuine ancient Celtic things), it should be 'high', purged of the gross, and fit for the more adult mind of a land long now steeped in poetry.

I would draw some of the great tales in fullness, and leave many only placed in the scheme, and sketched. The cycles should be linked to a majestic whole, and yet leave scope for other minds and hands, wielding paint and music and drama. Absurd.
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From Letter #131 of The Letters of J.R.R Tolkien.

Also, the following is one the best collections of tales from the Arthurian legend if anyone is interested. Public domain of course.

Le Morte d'Arthur by Sir Thomas Malory
 
A

AngmarsKing701

Member
for those of you who want a less romanticized version of the Arthurian legend I highly recommend Cornwell's. He places Arthur as a warlord in a post Roman occupied England.
 
E

Edmond Dantès

Dantès the White
AngmarsKing701 said:
for those of you who want a less romanticized version of the Arthurian legend I highly recommend Cornwell's. He places Arthur as a warlord in a post Roman occupied England.
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A very good suggestion.

So Loxley, a separate thread for The Fall of Arthur or to keep it in here?

The Children of Húrin was the previous new Tolkien release, so a dedicated thread would be fitting I think.
 
L

Loxley

Member
Edmond Dantès;56443668 said:
A very good suggestion.

So Loxley, a separate thread for The Fall of Arthur or to keep it in here?

The Children of Húrin was the previous new Tolkien release, so a dedicated thread would be fitting I think.
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Oh sure, I think a separate thread for The Fall of Arthur would be good. Probably nothing too elaborate, as I'm thinking once the book has been out for a couple weeks the discussion will shift back to this thread. But hey, for all I know there could be a huge response to the book around here, we'll see :)
 
M

Megalosaro

Banned
Been re-reading LotR recently. I'm up to Flight to the Ford. I love the Hobbits so much more in the book.

Frodo is more bookish. Merry is smarter and more Victorian gentlemanish. Pippin is more of a child than an idiot.
 
E

Edmond Dantès

Dantès the White
The quest to debunk the myth of King Arthur

1oCwhw.Em.138.jpeg
King Arthur is probably the most famous and certainly the most legendary medieval king. From the early ninth century through the middle ages, to the Arthurian romances of Victorian times, the tales of this legendary figure have blossomed and multiplied. And in more recent times, there has been a continuous stream of books claiming to unlock the secret or the truth behind the "once and future king."

The truth, as Guy Halsall reveals in this fascinating investigation, is both radically different--and also a good deal more intriguing. Broadly speaking, there are two Arthurs. On the one hand is the traditional "historical" Arthur, waging a doomed struggle to save Roman civilization against the relentless Anglo-Saxon tide during the darkest years of the Dark Ages. On the other is the Arthur of myth and legend, accompanied by a host of equally legendary people, places, and stories: Lancelot, Guinevere, Galahad and Gawain, Merlin, Excalibur, the Lady in the Lake, the Sword in the Stone, Camelot, and the Round Table.

The big problem with all this, notes Halsall, is that "King Arthur" might well never have existed. And if he did exist, it is next to impossible to say anything at all about him. As this challenging new look at the Arthur legend makes clear, all books claiming to reveal "the truth" behind King Arthur can safely be ignored. Not only the fanciful pseudo-historical accounts--Merlin the Magician, the Lady in the Lake--but even the "historical" Arthur is largely a figment of the imagination. The evidence that we have, whether written or archeological, is simply incapable of telling us anything detailed about the Britain in which he is supposed to have lived, fought, and died.
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http://www.pressofatlanticcity.com/...cle_8e3320df-5af8-528e-b08e-999f3f9032c3.html



Highly recommended.
 
E

Edmond Dantès

Dantès the White
Tolkien's Greatest Hits - The Most Impressive Wordplay from our Favorite Author

ib1YGXQZ2XBp3M.jpg



Most bittersweet line:

"I have quite finished, Sam," said Frodo. "The last pages are for you."


Best exclamation of joy:

"Ass! Fool! Thrice worthy and beloved Barliman!"


Most perfect description of beauty:

Young she was and yet not so. The braids of her dark hair were touched by no frost; her white arms and clear face were flawless and smooth, and the light of stars was in her bright eyes, grey as a cloudless night; yet queenly she looked, and thought and knowledge were in her glance, as of one who has known many things that the years bring.


Most poetic description of the weather:

The weather was grey and overcast, with wind from the East, but as evening drew into night the sky away westward cleared, and pools of faint light, yellow and pale green, opened under the grey shores of cloud. There the white rind of the new Moon could be seen glimmering in the remote lakes.


Most shocking moment:

But even as it fell it swung its whip, and the thongs lashed and curled about the wizard's knees, dragging him to the brink. He staggered and fell, grasped vainly at the stone, and slid into the abyss.


Most gruesome encounter:

Then Pippin stabbed upwards, and the written blade of Westernesse pierced through the hide and went deep into the vitals of the troll, and his black blood came gushing out.


Most colorful analogy:

"Troubles follow you like crows, and ever the oftener the worse."


Best example of friendly competition:

"Forty-two, Master Legolas!" he cried.


Most powerful moment of rage:

Then he charged. No onslaught more fierce was ever seen in the savage world of beasts, where some desperate small creature armed with little teeth, alone, will spring upon a tower of horn and hide that stands above its fallen mate.


Best invitation to dinner:

"You shall come home with me! The table is all laden with yellow cream, honeycomb, and white bread and butter."


Wittiest rejoinder:

Saruman- "For I am Saruman the Wise, Saruman Ring-maker, Saruman of Many Colors!"
Gandalf- "I liked white better."


Spookiest moment:

Farmer Cotton found Frodo lying on his bed; he was clutching a white gem that hung on a chain about his neck and he seemed half in a dream. "It is gone forever," he said, "and now all is dark and empty."


Most gothic description of evil:

Paler indeed than the moon ailing in some slow eclipse was the light of it now, wavering and blowing like a noisome exhalation of decay, a corpse-light, a light that illuminated nothing.


Most shrewd political advice:

"He uses others as his weapons. So do all great lords, if they are wise, Master Halfling."


Single best piece of advice:

"Do not meddle in the affairs of Wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger."


Single funniest line:

"What's taters, precious, eh, what's taters?"


Funniest exchange between two characters:

Eomer- "For there are certain rash words concerning the Lady in the Golden Wood that lie still between us. And now I have seen her with my eyes."
Gimli- "Well, lord, and what say you now?"
Eomer- "Alas! I will not say that she is the fairest lady that lives."
Gimli- "Then I must go for my axe."


Most beautiful dream sequence:

As he fell slowly into sleep, Pippin had a strange feeling: he and Gandalf were still as stone, seated upon the statue of a running horse, while the world rolled away beneath his feet with a great noise of wind.


Most enigmatic historical allusion:

"Fair was she who long ago wore this on her shoulder. Goldberry shall wear it now, and we will not forget her!"


Strongest statement of gender equality:

"In place of the Dark Lord you will set up a Queen."


Most romantic kiss:

And he took her in his arms and kissed her under the sunlit sky, and he cared not that they stood high upon the walls in the sight of many.


Most exciting call of alarm:

AWAKE! FEAR! FIRE! FOES! AWAKE!


Most intimidating description of geography:

Ever and anon the furnaces far below its ashen cone would grow hot and with a great surging and throbbing pour forth rivers of molten rock from chasms in its sides. Some would flow blazing towards Barad-dur down great channels; some would wind their way into the stony plain, until they cooled and lay like twisted dragon-shapes vomited from the tormented earth.


Most beautiful sunset:

But in front a thin veil of water was hung, so near that Frodo could have put an outstretched arm into it. It faced westward. The level shafts of the setting sun behind beat upon it, and the red light was broken into many flickering beams of ever-changing colour. It was as if they stood at the window of some elven-tower, curtained with threaded jewels of silver and gold, and ruby, sapphire and amethyst, all kindled with an unconsuming fire.


Most insidious falsehood:

"Our friendship would profit us both alike. Much we could still accomplish together, to heal the disorders of the world."


Most spectacular moment of destruction:

Towers fell and mountains slid; walls crumbled and melted, crashing down; vast spires of smoke and spouting steams went billowing up, up, until they toppled like an overwhelming wave, and its wild crest curled and came foaming down upon the land.


Most moving speech on the battlefield:

"But no living man am I! You look upon a woman. Eowyn I am, Eomund's daughter. You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone, if you be not deathless! For living or dark undead, I will smite you if you touch him."


Most Shakespearean dialogue:

"Stir not the bitterness in the cup that I mixed for myself," said Denethor. "Have I not tasted it now many nights upon my tongue, foreboding that worse lay yet in the dregs?"


Most wonderful hobbit irony:

Then there was Lobelia. And there was such clapping and cheering when she appeared, leaning on Frodo's arm but still clutching her umbrella, that she was quite touched, and drove away in tears. She had never in her life been popular before.


Two moments that surely inspired the 60's hippie counter-culture:

1. "Cast off these cold rags! Run naked on the grass, while Tom goes a-hunting!" The hobbits ran about for a while on the grass, as he told them.

and

2. All that day they walked about in the woods with him, singing, and laughing; for Quickbeam often laughed. Whenever he saw a rowan-tree he halted a while with his arms stretched out, and sang, and swayed as he sang.


Passage of utmost triumphant rapture:

And he sang to them, now in the Elven-tongue, now in the speech of the West, until their hearts, wounded with sweet words, overflowed, and their joy was like swords, and they passed in thought out to regions where pain and delight flow together and tears are the very wine of blessedness.


Line that always, always makes me weep uncontrollably:

There still he stood far into the night, hearing only the sigh and murmur of the waves on the shores of Middle-earth, and the sound of them sank deep into his heart.​


Courtesy of TORn's Green Books archive.


Masterful writing.
 
L

Loxley

Member
I have no idea why, but one of my favorite lines of Tolkien's has been from Fellowship. I don't remember the line specifically, but it was basically "Sam ate an apple thoughtfully." For whatever reason I just like it a lot, it's very pleasant :)
 
A

Altazor

Member
It may be a cliché choice, but two of my favourite passages are these two:

But either in his dreams or out of them, he could not tell which, Frodo heard a sweet singing running in his mind; a song that seemed to come like a pale light behind a grey rain-curtain, and growing stronger to turn the veil all to glass and silver, until at last it was rolled back, and a far green country opened before him under a swift sunrise.
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(Fellowship of the Ring)

“And the ship went out into the High Sea and passed into the West, until at last on a night of rain Frodo smelled a sweet fragrance on the air and heard the sound of singing that came over the water. And then it seemed to him that as in his dream in the house of Bombadil, the grey rain-curtain turned all to silver glass and was rolled back, and he beheld white shores and beyond them a far green country under a swift sunrise.”
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(Return of the King)

Beautiful. Just beautiful.
 
C

Candeldandel

Member
Oooh kay, all these beautiful passages are lovely motivation. I really just gotta sit down and read them... I have brace myself for the emotional voyage, though. Especially since I only just finished The Hobbit. Ho-boy :(
 
E

Edmond Dantès

Dantès the White
Cliche I know, but the following line remains very close to my heart, considering my love for hiking (and travelling in general), especially with two National Parks in close proximity; The New Forest and South Downs National Park.

“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to."


I always make time for The New Forest in May with the Azaleas in bloom very soon.


South Downs is lovely too, with castles, white cliffs and multitudes of things to see and do.

http://www.southdowns.gov.uk/enjoying
http://www.english-heritage.org.uk/discover/south-downs/explore/
 
M

Megalosaro

Banned
Edmond Dantès;57231226 said:
Cliche I know, but the following line remains very close to my heart, considering my love for hiking (and travelling in general), especially with two National Parks in close proximity; The New Forest and South Downs National Park.

“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to."


I always make time for The New Forest in May with the Azaleas in bloom very soon.


South Downs is lovely too, with castles, white cliffs and multitudes of things to see and do.

http://www.southdowns.gov.uk/enjoying
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"New Forest and South Downs"

Do you happen to live near the Brandywine?
 
C

CrunchyFrog

Member
Edmond Dantès;57137282 said:
Der Ring des Nibelungen been one of the key inspirations for the professor when he conceived the Legendarium.
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Having just finished a 20 page paper on this, Tolkien himself actually fervently denied any direct inspiration, though the uncanny similarities say otherwise. The similarities, he insists, have more to do with their shared source material in the Poetic Edda and the Volsungsaga than any attempt at homage on his part. In letter 229 he actually writes on the subject specifically, “Both rings were round, and there the resemblance ceases.” In fact there are even suggestions from his personal writings that he actively disliked Wagner's interpretation of Germanic/Scandinavian folklore, though I don't have those specific quotes on me atm.
 
E

Edmond Dantès

Dantès the White
CrunchyFrog said:
Having just finished a 20 page paper on this, Tolkien himself actually fervently denied any direct inspiration, though the uncanny similarities say otherwise. The similarities, he insists, have more to do with their shared source material in the Poetic Edda and the Volsungsaga than any attempt at homage on his part. In letter 229 he actually writes on the subject specifically, “Both rings were round, and there the resemblance ceases.” In fact there are even suggestions from his personal writings that he actively disliked Wagner's interpretation of Germanic/Scandinavian folklore, though I don't have those specific quotes on me atm.
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I'd liken it to 'Hobbit' (Denham Tracts), 'Gondor' (Gondar, Ethiopia) and so forth. Things that he had come across in his life subconsciously inspiring him in his writing. But insisting on independently conceiving these aspects of his Legendarium.
 
M

Megalosaro

Banned
Mirkwood, huh?

From what I've read Chris Tolkien has no clue how old the poem is. Is it possible he wrote the Arthur poem, then liked the term Mirkwood so he re-used it for the Hobbit?
 
E

Edmond Dantès

Dantès the White
Megalosaro said:
Mirkwood, huh?

From what I've read Chris Tolkien has no clue how old the poem is. Is it possible he wrote the Arthur poem, then liked the term Mirkwood so he re-used it for the Hobbit?
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In the foreword of the The Fall of Arthur, Christopher estimates 1934 as the time of writing the poem.

In terms of Mirkwood, it wasn't one of his own creations, he borrowed the word from Primitive Germanic.

As he writes in a letter to his grandson in 1966:
Mirkwood is not an invention of mine, but a very ancient name, weighted with legendary associations. It was probably the Primitive Germanic name for the great mountainous forest regions that anciently formed a barrier to the south of the lands of the Germanic expansion. In some traditions it became used specially for the boundary between Goths and Huns...
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