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[Megalosaro]

I'm going to be honest for a moment and say, I really like the old Rankin Bass Hobbit movie. It's a pretty competent telling of the story (in only 70 minutes at that) and is pretty charming and I honestly love the hell out of songs.

Return of the King has a a lot of flaws and isn't nearly as good by comparison. It does do certain things better than the PJ versions though. Frodo in particular is better, for example. But the said, it is worth watching the movie just for this song:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bt6Nj2vgFiE

 

[SiegfriedFM]

Was it ever stated which dwarves came to visit Bilbo for his 111th birthday? Seven of them couldn't be there, but do we know which ones it was?

 

[Edmond Dantès]

Was it ever stated which dwarves came to visit Bilbo for his 111th birthday? Seven of them couldn't be there, but do we know which ones it was?

In an earlier draft of Fellowship, the following Dwarves attended; Lofar, Hannar Nar, and Anar.

None of the party from The Hobbit attended. Only Dwarves from Erebor that Bilbo befriended in other adventures.

As far as the published Fellowship, the same as above, Dwarves from Erebor, but none of the party of 13.

 

[Megalosaro]

The only dwarf that seemed to be particularly close to Bilbo was Balin and by that point he was dead, along with Oin and Ori.

I wonder how Bilbo met the other dwarves. As far as I recall, he never really left the Shire between his adventure and his 111th birthday

 

[Edmond Dantès]

The only dwarf that seemed to be particularly close to Bilbo was Balin and by that point he was dead, along with Oin and Ori.

I wonder how Bilbo met the other dwarves. As far as I recall, he never really left the Shire between his adventure and his 111th birthday

He would have encountered Dwarves coming and going here and there on the outskirts of The Shire.

 

[Megalosaro]

That's true. I forgot that Dwarves frequently passed through the Shire en rout to the Blue Mountains

 

[Edmond Dantès]

MiddleEarthNetwork presents: Girl Power

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9U2hfPfsnYo


Up and coming Tolkien scholar Britta Siemen features in this.

 

[Candeldandel]

So I finished reading The Hobbit again a few weeks ago, after not having picked it up in a long time. Since there's no way I'm articulate enough to give it a proper review, I'm not going to attempt one. But I will post some impressions, I suppose...

I was relieved to learn I still love it. I was worried at first, since I know the effects of rose-colored glasses can be pretty strong, but no. It's still the same book I remember from when I was a kid. Since it's very much a narrated story, the tone changes when it's read aloud as opposed to reading it to myself*. The entire time I was reading it I was wondering 'how could they possibly adapt something like this'? (That is why, about 2/3rds of the way through, I decided to completely separate my 'book' love from my 'movie' love. It was a little difficult, but it makes each better.)

It's much, much easier to read than Lord of the Rings. I knew this going into it, but I found myself making an effort to slow down, because it's... short. Shorter than I realized. I get the apprehension from the Tolkien community now regarding the movies, seeing what a quick read it is. It definitely lends better to a younger audience. Don't know what that says about me. The descriptions were on par with LotR as well, just in a diminished quantity. I love Tolkien's details, but they can be overwhelming for me (in more than one way) and I think that's why I have an easier time getting through The Hobbit.

Personally, the amount of characterization is... limited, to say the least. There are only a few characters that are developed at any length: Bilbo and Thorin mostly. What I do read is lovely, though, so that might be part of why it makes me so sad: there isn't enough! I'm left wondering about a lot of what goes on beyond just the story we're told (I'm guessing that's where the Silmarillion comes in). Even with the lack of attachment I usually develop with characters, in the end, it is quite moving. Everything happens so fast

It's hard to describe some of the things I like about it. Part has to be that I grew up with it. Part is that it's generally a reliable source of conversation (when you're a kid, anyway), since it's been around forever and so many people have read it, or at least know the basics. It's a good friend-maker It's got a good substance about it.

Aaaaand I can't not mention my surprise to see how often Fili & Kili help out. I'm a little ashamed to admit I got a stupid grin on my face every time I saw them mentioned. Mostly...




*My friend read it to her son recently (twice in a row!) so I got to sit in on a little of it. She laments it's a tad difficult to read out loud, but listening to it is fabulous.

 

[Megalosaro]

I'm left wondering about a lot of what goes on beyond just the story we're told (I'm guessing that's where the Silmarillion comes in). Even with the lack of attachment I usually develop with characters, in the end, it is quite moving. Everything happens so fast
.[/I]

It comes from LotR Appendix A and a section of Unfinished Tales called "The Quest for Erebor",

 

[Edmond Dantès]

So I finished reading The Hobbit again a few weeks ago, after not having picked it up in a long time. Since there's no way I'm articulate enough to give it a proper review, I'm not going to attempt one. But I will post some impressions, I suppose...

I was relieved to learn I still love it. I was worried at first, since I know the effects of rose-colored glasses can be pretty strong, but no. It's still the same book I remember from when I was a kid. Since it's very much a narrated story, the tone changes when it's read aloud as opposed to reading it to myself*. The entire time I was reading it I was wondering 'how could they possibly adapt something like this'? (That is why, about 2/3rds of the way through, I decided to completely separate my 'book' love from my 'movie' love. It was a little difficult, but it makes each better.)

It's much, much easier to read than Lord of the Rings. I knew this going into it, but I found myself making an effort to slow down, because it's... short. Shorter than I realized. I get the apprehension from the Tolkien community now regarding the movies, seeing what a quick read it is. It definitely lends better to a younger audience. Don't know what that says about me. The descriptions were on par with LotR as well, just in a diminished quantity. I love Tolkien's details, but they can be overwhelming for me (in more than one way) and I think that's why I have an easier time getting through The Hobbit.

Personally, the amount of characterization is... limited, to say the least. There are only a few characters that are developed at any length: Bilbo and Thorin mostly. What I do read is lovely, though, so that might be part of why it makes me so sad: there isn't enough! I'm left wondering about a lot of what goes on beyond just the story we're told (I'm guessing that's where the Silmarillion comes in). Even with the lack of attachment I usually develop with characters, in the end, it is quite moving. Everything happens so fast

It's hard to describe some of the things I like about it. Part has to be that I grew up with it. Part is that it's generally a reliable source of conversation (when you're a kid, anyway), since it's been around forever and so many people have read it, or at least know the basics. It's a good friend-maker It's got a good substance about it.

Aaaaand I can't not mention my surprise to see how often Fili & Kili help out. I'm a little ashamed to admit I got a stupid grin on my face every time I saw them mentioned. Mostly...




*My friend read it to her son recently (twice in a row!) so I got to sit in on a little of it. She laments it's a tad difficult to read out loud, but listening to it is fabulous.

Thanks for sharing.

 

[Candeldandel]

Gosh yeah, so many appendices to go through, too! I'm going to have a super busy summer, so I've decided to use Tolkien as a counterweight for all the work I'll be doing. And it'll be a good supplement for all the Hobbity things that'll undoubtedly be popping up this year. Erm, years.

 

[Edmond Dantès]

Gosh yeah, so many appendices to go through, too! I'm going to have a super busy summer, so I've decided to use Tolkien as a counterweight for all the work I'll be doing. And it'll be a good supplement for all the Hobbity things that'll undoubtedly be popping up this year. Erm, years.

I'd start with the beginning. The Tale of Years which will give you a better understanding of the First and Second Ages. Needless to say, The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen is an important tale to read in Appendix A.

Appendix C will appeal to you too, with all the Hobbit family trees and ancestry. Durin's Folk found in Appendix A is another.

 

[Candeldandel]

I'd start with the beginning. The Tale of Years which will give you a better understanding of the First and Second Ages. Needless to say, The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen is an important tale to read in Appendix A.

Appendix C will appeal to you too, with all the Hobbit family trees and ancestry. Durin's Folk found in Appendix A is another.

Thanks, Edmond I'm glad to have a starting point, especially since there's so much material. I'm sure I'll still get lost, though...

 

[Edmond Dantès]

Thanks, Edmond I'm glad to have a starting point, especially since there's so much material. I'm sure I'll still get lost, though...

At your service.

If the info on the First and Second Ages intrigues you enough, The Silmarillion is next in terms of the Legendarium.

It's been said by many, that it is a difficult read, but frankly I don't think that's the case for the main bulk of the book (the Quenta Silmarillion), get past the Ainulindalë (creation story; Genesis) and it's plain sailing from that point on. And the Tolkien experts in here will always be of assistance if you have any questions/queries.

 

[Megalosaro]

The only thing particularly difficult about the Silmarillion is the shear amount of names, relations and places you have to keep track of. Otherwise, it's pretty straightforward. Especially once the elves arrive in Beleriand

 

[Edmond Dantès]

So Loxley, do want The Fall of Arthur thread or should I make it?

 

[Edmond Dantès]

Magical Books: from the Middle Ages to Middle-earth at Oxford's Bodleian Library

http://www.culture24.org.uk/history & heritage/literature & music/art435250

 

[Loxley]

So Loxley, do want The Fall of Arthur thread or should I make it?

All yours man.

Just got word that mine shipped

 

[Loxley]

Well, crap. I'm going to be out of town until next Tuesday and my copy of The Fall of Arthur arrives tomorrow (I have to leave tonight)

Bah. Guess I'll have to wait until next week.

 

[SiegfriedFM]

Finally finished the English version of the trilogy for the first time, and for the first time since seeing the movies in any language. There's certainly a lot of stuff I had forgotten, but it's rather neat to see how they've moved dialogue around, sometimes to more fitting scenes. With the established voices and characters I could make my own super-extended mega-faithful adaptation in my head.

In some cases I think the movies are better. Boromir is handled better, at least in the extended cut. I feel that the book simply dismisses him, on vaguely racist grounds. "Ah, but it was inevitable that he should fall, he was much less of a pure Numenorean than his perfect brother who could do no wrong". Faramir's "I wouldn't pick it up if I found it laying by the wayside" thing is also annoying, for the same reason.

It would have been hilarious to actually incorporate all those endings in the movie. People complain about what we got, but they could have made another three hours just from after being rescued off the mountain. I love that part though, so much emotion and lots of (rather late in some cases) character development. For some reason I also liked the Scouring much better this time, when I have a distinct image of Hobbiton in my head.

About the character omissions:

Tom Bombadil - he's interesting as a concept, but he wouldn't have worked in the movie. He would have been Radagast^34, or Jar Jar Binks. They would also have had to explain him even more clearly at the Council, why he wouldn't help.

Glorfindel - eh, why isn't he in the Fellowship to begin with? I don't see the reasoning: "Elflord 1's power isn't of much use to us now. Let's put Elflord 2 there instead, he's really badass, although not as much." A really ancient elf learning to trust dwarves could have been even more powerful, but we would have missed the Hobbit: The New Generation thing.

Bill Ferny - with the Scouring removed, there really wasn't any point in building him up, and even with it he was kind of useless.

Elladan and Elrohir - not really much point to them being there. They could have had any Ranger doing their tasks, although Elrond legging it down to Dunharrow to deliver a sword was an even worse idea.

Elfhelm - he was literally replaced by Gamling, which was missing the point that his very name meant that he was an aged warrior. At least Grimbold was mentioned.

Quickbeam and Beregond - both are nice, interesting characters but they mostly slow the story down without any real payoff. By the time Pippin gets to Gondor, the story is going into epic mode and everything with Beregond and his son basically just slows it down one last time. He'd be excellent in a TV adaptation though, with his own mini arc.

Prince Imrahil - he too could be interesting in a longer adaptation of the Gondor story, but he's basically just a generic heroic general. He also begs the question: why are there princes when the country has been waiting for a king for centuries?

Ghan-buri-Ghan: I like the woses, but this was definitely a case of Tolkien over-design. Yeah, by the way, on the border between these two major nations there's an entire forgotten people hiding in the forest, with their own culture and stuff, and they're pretty much only used as a shortcut around an obstacle he just randomly introduced.

 

[Megalosaro]

Prince Imrahil - he too could be interesting in a longer adaptation of the Gondor story, but he's basically just a generic heroic general. He also begs the question: why are there princes when the country has been waiting for a king for centuries?

Imhrahil isn't of the line of Elendil, so he has no legitimate claim to the throne of Gondor. The various cities of Gondor are principalities. Imrahil is a prince in the same way that Faramir is made a prince at the end of Return of the King. They are the head of state for the territories they govern, but are not in line for succession to the throne itself

 

[Loxley]

About the character omissions:

Glorfindel - eh, why isn't he in the Fellowship to begin with? I don't see the reasoning: "Elflord 1's power isn't of much use to us now. Let's put Elflord 2 there instead, he's really badass, although not as much." A really ancient elf learning to trust dwarves could have been even more powerful, but we would have missed the Hobbit: The New Generation thing.

The simple explanation for this one is that Tolkien just chose not to include him in the Fellowship. To my knowledge he never addressed why, but we know that in very early drafts Glorfindel was in the Fellowship - back when Aragorn was a clog-wearing Hobbit named Trotter and Frodo was named Bingo.

Tolkien clearly had a grand ol' time coming up with these names.

 

[Megalosaro]

Elrond actually suggests putting Glorfindel and one other from his household in the Fellowship in the final book. However, they only wanted 9 people to go in the fellowship and Merry and Pippin force themselves into the last two slots

 

[SiegfriedFM]

I just received the first two volumes of Lords of Middle-earth, from the I.C.E. role-playing series. The first one concerns elves, maiar and valar, and provides game statistics for everyone. In case you wanted to roll dice to see how Legolas would fare against Aulë (strangely no stats are given for Eru).

It's obviously a case of I.C.E. making stuff up as they go along, to fill in the huge gaps in the lore, but it's still a rather interesting canon (I consider the MERP Middle-earth a separate canon in itself, just like Jackson's Middle-earth). Alatar and Pallando are given personalities and objectives (and pictures). Bombadil and Goldberry are stated to be elemental maiar. I haven't looked through part two yet, but from the old books I remember there being a female nazgul - because why not?

I wanted these books back when I actively played, but they were extremely rare already in the early 90's. I'm just happy to have them now.

 

[Megalosaro]

Been re-reading LotR lately and I just got to one of my favorite exchanges.

"What is the time?" said Pippin yawning.
"Past the second hour," said gandalf. "Time to get up and make yourself presentable. You are summoned to the Lord of the City to learn your new duties.'
"And will he provide breakfast?'
"No! I have provided it: all that you will get till noon. Food is now doled out by order.'
Pippin looked ruefully at the small loaf and (he thought) very inadequate pat of butter which was set out for him, beside a cup of thin milk. 'Why did you bring me here?' he said.
'You know quite well.' said Gandalf. 'To keep you out of mischief and if you do not like being here, you can remember that you brought it on yourself.' Pippin said no more.

An excellent bit of humor to start off perhaps one of the grimmest chapters in the book.

 

[Loxley]

Been re-reading LotR lately and I just got to one of my favorite exchanges.

"What is the time?" said Pippin yawning.
"Past the second hour," said gandalf. "Time to get up and make yourself presentable. You are summoned to the Lord of the City to learn your new duties.'
"And will he provide breakfast?'
"No! I have provided it: all that you will get till noon. Food is now doled out by order.'
Pippin looked ruefully at the small loaf and (he thought) very inadequate pat of butter which was set out for him, beside a cup of thin milk. 'Why did you bring me here?' he said.
'You know quite well.' said Gandalf. 'To keep you out of mischief and if you do not like being here, you can remember that you brought it on yourself.' Pippin said no more.

An excellent bit of humor to start off perhaps one of the grimmest chapters in the book.

Grumpy Gandalf is indeed the best Gandalf.

 

[Ape Gone Insane]

What happened to Edmond? Haven't seen him around here or in the other LOTR/Hobbit threads.

 

[Megalosaro]

He passed the test. He diminished and went into the West and remained Edmond.

 

[Loxley]

What happened to Edmond? Hasn't seen him around here or in the other LOTR/Hobbit threads.

I sent him a PM a few days ago but have yet to get a response :/

 

[fredrancour]

Grumpy Gandalf is indeed the best Gandalf.

No way, Trolling Gandalf is Best Gandalf

 

[Candeldandel]

I feel stupid for being worried, but I am Edmond, come back!

 

[AngmarsKing701]

I feel stupid for being worried, but I am Edmond, come back!

This happened either last year or earlier this year as well, where he was gone for a few weeks.

 

[Watevaman]

I think he's going to the 24 Hours of Le Mans, which is this upcoming weekend, so he may be prepping for that.

 

[Candeldandel]

This happened either last year or earlier this year as well, where he was gone for a few weeks.

I think he's going to the 24 Hours of Le Mans, which is this upcoming weekend, so he may be prepping for that.

Oohhh, gosh. Ok, these make me feel much better Is he really doing the Le Mans? Or just going to it?

 

[Fafalada]

Glorfindel - eh, why isn't he in the Fellowship to begin with?

I thought it was just so they could expand Arwen's role - which, with exception of the botched-ring wraith chase sequence, was a good thing IMO.
Or are you talking about why Tolkien didn't put him into the actual fellowship? I vaguely recall that was actually touched upon in the story - something to do with using stealth over raw-power, I mean they brought 4 hobbits along and all... I should re-read the books I guess.

Btw on topic of Boromir, I'm not sure it could really be addressed to racial heritage given how Numenor fell in the first place, and how in Tolkien-verse this has been common place among elves, gods and every other race alike (except maybe Tree-ants?).

 

[Megalosaro]

Tolkien portrays Numenoreans as a a mixed bag, morally. On one hand you have characters like Elendil and his sons, Aragorn, Faramir and Imrahil, who are virtuous, valiant, and wise. But then you have characters like Ar-Pharazon, Denethor and at least two Ringwraiths, who are proud to a fault. Tolkien doesn't shy away from the fact that while the Numenoreans were powerful and aided the free peoples, they also colonized "lesser men".

Then there is the Numenorean pre-occupation with racial purity, which is sometimes portrayed as good, like when comparisons are made between Aragorn and Faramir and their ancestors. But he also portrays it negatively, like the fact that they were so obsessed with the royalty being "pure" that it led to a civil war that forever diminished Gondor's greatness.

 

[Tathanen]

Finished reading the Silmarillion for the first time yesterday, and boy the context and scope it gives to Tolkiens world is just insane. It makes me want to re-read LOTR, despite just finishing it a month ago. Ha ha I will not do that.

But does anyone think it's kinda bizarre that the Istari were sent to Middle Earth in the first place? With Aman and Eressëa being sundered utterly from the earth after the fall of Numenor, I kind of took that as the Valar's final "get fucked" to Middle Earth, and all its concerns. It was peopled then by wild men, traitors, and scant waning elves. What obligation did they have to really help ward off Sauran in any capacity? It sure took them long enough to tender any aid to the Eldar and Edain while Morgoth basically wiped them off the face of the planet. What earned the Hither Lands a respite from the piddling Sauron, who had retreated shapless and ringless back into Mordor?

 

[Megalosaro]

The Valar love the the people of Middle-earth, which is why they sent the Istari. However, they realized that their previous direct interventions had caused nothing but problems, which is why they limited the strength of the Istari as well as what their objectives were. The Valar wanted to make the people of Middle earth independent, but they didn't want to completely abandon them.

Hell, they had more involvement then just sending the Istari. Remember when the winds suddenly changed during the Battle of the Pelennor fields, blowing away Sauron's darkness and allowing Aragorn to reach the city in time? That was all Manwe.

As for the Downfall of Numenor, that wasn't so much the Valar saying "Fuck you" to Middle earth, as much as it was them saying "Fuck you" to Numenor. Other than Elendil and his followers, Numenor was entirely corrupted by that point. I mean, hell, they were worshipping Morgoth. The invasion of Aman was the final straw and the Valar were pissed at the arrogance of Ar-Pharazon.

I recently finished my re-reading of LotR and I noticed something in the appendices.

(page 1115)

"In Sindarin the combinations ng, nd, mb, which were specially favoured in the Eldarin languages at an earlier stage, suffered from various changes. mb became m in all cases, but still counted as a long consonant for purposes of stress ( see below) and is thus written mm in cases wehre otherwise the stress might be in doubt. ng remained unchanged except initally and finally where it became the simple nasal ( as in English sing). nd became nn, usually, as in Ennor "Middle-earth", Q Endore."

Does that mean that Gondor is actually pronounced "Gonnor" and not Gone-door like in the movies?

 

[Candeldandel]

New illustrated edition of The Hobbit available in September (in the UK, at least). I think it looks lovely and I hope I get a chance to at least see it firsthand instead of just ogling it online :\

 

[Loxley]

New illustrated edition of The Hobbit available in September (in the UK, at least). I think it looks lovely and I hope I get a chance to at least see it firsthand instead of just ogling it online :

If it's being published by Harper Collins you can pretty much guarantee that it'll be available in the States at some point.

 

[RukusProvider]

Edmond's been MIA?

I started listening to The Silmarillion audio book. On the 2nd CD which is the 2nd chapter and so far I'm really enjoying it.

I don't have the time for reading the book so the audiobook is perfect for the commute.

 

[SiegfriedFM]

The Valar love the the people of Middle-earth, which is why they sent the Istari. However, they realized that their previous direct interventions had caused nothing but problems, which is why they limited the strength of the Istari as well as what their objectives were. The Valar wanted to make the people of Middle earth independent, but they didn't want to completely abandon them.

Hell, they had more involvement then just sending the Istari. Remember when the winds suddenly changed during the Battle of the Pelennor fields, blowing away Sauron's darkness and allowing Aragorn to reach the city in time? That was all Manwe.

As for the Downfall of Numenor, that wasn't so much the Valar saying "Fuck you" to Middle earth, as much as it was them saying "Fuck you" to Numenor. Other than Elendil and his followers, Numenor was entirely corrupted by that point. I mean, hell, they were worshipping Morgoth. The invasion of Aman was the final straw and the Valar were pissed at the arrogance of Ar-Pharazon.

I recently finished my re-reading of LotR and I noticed something in the appendices.

(page 1115)

"In Sindarin the combinations ng, nd, mb, which were specially favoured in the Eldarin languages at an earlier stage, suffered from various changes. mb became m in all cases, but still counted as a long consonant for purposes of stress ( see below) and is thus written mm in cases wehre otherwise the stress might be in doubt. ng remained unchanged except initally and finally where it became the simple nasal ( as in English sing). nd became nn, usually, as in Ennor "Middle-earth", Q Endore."

Does that mean that Gondor is actually pronounced "Gonnor" and not Gone-door like in the movies?

If you leave out the american accent, it's very easy to make the "d" almost inaudible.

 

[Htown]

so I've never read the Silmarillion, and all I'd read before now were the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings

I just read The Children of Hurin.

And now if you'll excuse me, I'll be in my room, listening to some Linkin Park.

 

[Megalosaro]

I don't know how you finished it, dude. I read Unfinished Tales before I read the Silmarillion and I had to stop because I didn't know what the hell was going on in sections on Tuor and Turin

 

[Htown]

well I don't know how it was presented in Unfinished Tales, but I read the standalone novel version.

lemme summarize it for you

everything sucks, no one is ever happy, and if they are happy it's only to set them up for some even more fucked up suckitude later.

 

[B-Dubs]

well I don't know how it was presented in Unfinished Tales, but I read the standalone novel version.

lemme summarize it for you

everything sucks, no one is ever happy, and if they are happy it's only to set them up for some even more fucked up suckitude later.

And that's the nice way of putting it. If it wasn't so dark it would be funny.

 

[Megalosaro]

well I don't know how it was presented in Unfinished Tales, but I read the standalone novel version.

lemme summarize it for you

everything sucks, no one is ever happy, and if they are happy it's only to set them up for some even more fucked up suckitude later.

The Children of Hurin uses pretty much all of the text from the version in Unfinished Tales, but Christopher filled in the gaps that were missing that his father didn't fill in.

I understand the context now, since I've read The Silmarillion multiple times, but that first time was brutal. I had no idea what Gondolin was, where Doriath or Dorthonion were. I had no clue what the hell was going on in Beleriand, what the Fifth Battle was. I was just lost.

But if you made it through okay, more power to you

 

[Htown]

And that's the nice way of putting it. If it wasn't so dark it would be funny.

so my impression of the First Age of Middle-Earth is that Morgoth does whatever the fuck he wants, and if you set foot outside of whatever badass hidden elf kingdom you're holed up in to step to him, he goes "great! now I know where you are!" and you are entirely fucked, and probably your badass hidden elf kingdom is fucked too

should probably read the Silmarillion at some point

 

[Megalosaro]

Silmarillion is pretty awesome. In a lot of ways I like it better than Hobbit + LotR. First Age is a wonderful setting.

Morgoth is an awesome villain

 

[Loxley]

Akallabêth is right up there with my love of LotR, such a great read.