JPBrowncoat
Member
BorkBork said:
I really thought it would end up being Thalassa who killed him.
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The Official Apollo Justice: Ace Attorney (4) Thread
- Thread starter jvalioli
- Start date
Graagh! This thread may contain ranting and spoilers.
So I got through to case 4, and the same thing I hate about every Ace Attorney game has kicked in. Where I present the right evidence for the right reason and the game punishes me because it actually wants me to make the same point in a different (clearly inferior way).
So I have to prove that the guy's
? I know what evidence I can present to do that - how about
? That would make sense, right? No, instead I have to present
. What the fuck?
And I want to prove that
- well duh. That's obviously because
So I got through to case 4, and the same thing I hate about every Ace Attorney game has kicked in. Where I present the right evidence for the right reason and the game punishes me because it actually wants me to make the same point in a different (clearly inferior way).
So I have to prove that the guy's
a forger
an actual forged painting that he was in the process of forging at the time of his death and that you can see is a forgery because it isn't finished yet
the original painting that he's copying
And I want to prove that
his coffee wasn't poisoned
we know he was poisoned with atroquinine, and that takes 15 minutes to kick in
. So I'll present
, right? Fuck, no. I've got to present his
. Fuck you, Capcom.
Surely even a half-assed attempt at QA would have shown up some of these situations where there are multiple items that could be presented (with the 'right' one frequently not the most sensible)? Is it too much to ask for them all to be accepted as right? It's always the last case they screw up like this as well. Asshats.
the post mortem which clearly states what actually killed him
goddamned coffee cup
Surely even a half-assed attempt at QA would have shown up some of these situations where there are multiple items that could be presented (with the 'right' one frequently not the most sensible)? Is it too much to ask for them all to be accepted as right? It's always the last case they screw up like this as well. Asshats.
Don't know if it's always the last case, but that's clearly the main drawback on the ace attorney series. Fortunately it's not so reccurrent.
Anyway, just finished the game. I put it right under AA3 in my preferences. It was really good.
OMG PLOT SPOILARZ GET RIGHT AWAY IF YOU DIDNT FINISH THE GAME YET.
Anyway, just finished the game. I put it right under AA3 in my preferences. It was really good.
OMG PLOT SPOILARZ GET RIGHT AWAY IF YOU DIDNT FINISH THE GAME YET.
I really didn't see coming that Apollo and Trucy were brother and sister, and even less that Lamiroir was their mom. I like it that they're still not told at the end of the game, makes something to do in AA5. Plus the ending remix is great. I also love the original ver of this track to begin with.
What I would like to see, (Though I'm guessing I won't,) would be a game that puts Phoenix and Apollo in together, allowing you to choose who to play as. My original thought was that you would do the same cases, either using the Psyche-lock technique or the Observation system. But now I'm not sure that would be all that great.
Ok, GAF, I usually don't post "in the heat of the moment", but I'll make an exception, I just need to.
Spoilers for Case 4. Be aware that I'm still not in position to read the spoiler tagged stuff concerning this case in the thread, so I don't know if that was discussed already.
*lots of misunderstanding*
Edit: forget!
Spoilers for Case 4. Be aware that I'm still not in position to read the spoiler tagged stuff concerning this case in the thread, so I don't know if that was discussed already.
*lots of misunderstanding*
Edit: forget!
Just finished the game:
I have to agree that the game felt really short, but I can't put my finger on why. I know there weren't any three day cases, but have there been any since AA1? AA2 and 3 didn't seem as short. I think a large part of it is that Kristoph went down too easily at the end of case 4. Normally the final villain puts pulls out a few more objections than that.
As for Klavier, he was a good character but a boring prosecutor to go up against. I smiled when he would talk about his record sales and such, but he helped Apollo out way too much. Then again, I've felt that way since AA2. I want the next game's prosecutor to be as determined to win as Edgeworth was in AA1, so we can get some exciting back-and-forth going.
Then the ending. Lamiroir as Apollo and Trucy's mother? I saw the two of them possibly being siblings, but her as their mother? What? How the hell did she end up in Borginia? It seemed a bit contrived to me; not every witness has to have a strong relation to the protagonists. And we don't even get to see how Apollo and Trucy react.
And oh yeah, the Mason System. I liked this and it was completely unexpected to see something so Matrix-y. I was confused though by finding evidence in the present to help in the past. Maybe I just got confused. Also, did anyone try voting guilty with Lamiroir? What happens?
I guess my feelings in general are that as AA4, the game was amazing. But as the start of an Apollo Justice trilogy it was definitely lacking. I don't feel as familiar with him as I did with Phoenix at the end of AA1. Not even close. Still, a great ride.
As for Klavier, he was a good character but a boring prosecutor to go up against. I smiled when he would talk about his record sales and such, but he helped Apollo out way too much. Then again, I've felt that way since AA2. I want the next game's prosecutor to be as determined to win as Edgeworth was in AA1, so we can get some exciting back-and-forth going.
Then the ending. Lamiroir as Apollo and Trucy's mother? I saw the two of them possibly being siblings, but her as their mother? What? How the hell did she end up in Borginia? It seemed a bit contrived to me; not every witness has to have a strong relation to the protagonists. And we don't even get to see how Apollo and Trucy react.
And oh yeah, the Mason System. I liked this and it was completely unexpected to see something so Matrix-y. I was confused though by finding evidence in the present to help in the past. Maybe I just got confused. Also, did anyone try voting guilty with Lamiroir? What happens?
I guess my feelings in general are that as AA4, the game was amazing. But as the start of an Apollo Justice trilogy it was definitely lacking. I don't feel as familiar with him as I did with Phoenix at the end of AA1. Not even close. Still, a great ride.
ShockingAlberto
Member
UhAlaluef said:Ok, GAF, I usually don't post "in the heat of the moment", but I'll make an exception, I just need to.
Spoilers for Case 4. Be aware that I'm still not in position to read the spoiler tagged stuff concerning this case in the thread, so I don't know if that was discussed already.
You massively misunderstood that section of the game
To make you feel better:Alaluef said:
I was actually confused as to who he was talking to, as well. At first I was like "why is he talking to me" Then I was like "wait, is he talking to Apollo."
It doesn't become super clear until the very end. Maybe they should have clarified that a bit better.
It doesn't become super clear until the very end. Maybe they should have clarified that a bit better.
Golden Darkness
Member
If anyone's interested, the Bionic Commando podcast has a Ace Attorney episode for some reason, featuring the producer of the series: http://www.bioniccommando.com/en/podcasts
Finished it, loved it. Its always sad when Phoenix Wright games end.
overall it seemed shorter and easire than the previous ones. Only used the faq once in the entire game....had to use it several times in the last one. Music wise this game was the best, soundtrack out yet?
Ending was no where as epic as the last game, but still awesome. Whats the eta on the next game?
overall it seemed shorter and easire than the previous ones. Only used the faq once in the entire game....had to use it several times in the last one. Music wise this game was the best, soundtrack out yet?
Ending was no where as epic as the last game, but still awesome. Whats the eta on the next game?
yoopoo said:
Agreed. The first game was the gold standard in catchy dramatic tunes, the second botched it (barring the ending theme, which is so simple yet still so fucking good), and the third game mostly remixed the first (with the exception of the excellent Godot & Dahlia themes). GS4 not only had huge improvements in music quality, but it's melds new and old tunes very very well. Pursuit themes are always good in any PW game, so that's a given, but other excellent tunes include Start of a New Trial, Trance Logic, Gramary Troupe, Child of Magic, and my personal fav, Scientific Detective. Short and Sweet, great stuff.
Capcom announced the game in May 2007, but no release date or other info yet.
Lostconfused
Member
Flynn said:
Its the same feeling i have when finishing a book or a good tv series, just hate to see the characters go.
Oh also just finished the game. And the only thing i can say is that Phoenix Wright is to jaded to be the Phoenix Wright we knew and loved.
Edit2: Oh also does it bother anyone else that prosecutors are a part of the law enforcement, usually have connections and a nice office with a view. While Phoenix Wright and Apollo lead the live of a down on his luck PI that has to go to court because its the only way to pay the bills.
Edit3: No thats just Phoenix and Apollo, Kristoph seems to be rather well set up. I guess you cant be the main character of the game if you aren't down on your luck and have to work out of some small office.
Edit4: I was very disappointed that you didn't unlock "character" art when you finished an episode.
DangerStepp
Member
Is there something wrong with me?! I can't get Klavier Gavin's theme song out of my head. It's been playing over and again for two days straight. It's such an awesome song, yet so cheesy. I love it. The only problem is that it's only one part that keeps repeating. The palm mute moving up the fretboard....
Hcoregamer00
The 'H' stands for hentai.
Alaluef said:
Yes, because the cute one is Machi.
DangerStepp
Member
I whole-heartedly agree. Now that you mentioned it, I'm now thinking of it.Kletian said:
I'm sorry. Wocky and Machi aren't cute (I am a guy, for the record).Hcoregamer00 said:
Wocky is annoying and Machi is spooky. Seriously, he couldn't get any creepier if his hair was made of spiderweb.
However, I do believe that Ema is hot.
Another orchestrated album you say? Where? I've never heard of such and would very much like to hear the first one!Alaluef said:
DangerStepp
Member
oo Kosma oo said:
"You've taken your first step into a larger world."
Pureauthor
Member
I get the feeling that I'm going to mess things up a bit with my post here, but what the hey.
After purchasing and completing the english version of Gyakuten Saiban 4, otherwise known as Apollo Justice: Ace Attorney, I feel secure in saying this:
This is the absolute worst game in the series.
How am I justified in making this remark? I'll do so by comparing this to the other game that started a lawyer-trilogy, otherwise known as Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney. Note that aside from specific issues, my comparison will solely deal with 1-1 to 1-4 of AA1, because otherwise it's simply not fair to AJ:AA.
Right. Let's break this up simple. What better way to do that than with a spoiler-filled review?
SPOILERS FROM HERE ON OUT, YE BE WARNED
Apollo Justice: Ace Attorney
The Music: The music is fantastic. A wide variety of excellent tracks add variety to the mood, as well as a remixed version of a tune I always really liked back in the day. 'The Child of Magic' isn't as good as 'The Turnabout Sisters', but then again I consider 'The Turnabout Sisters' my favourite theme in the series, so I might be skewing this a bit.
The Graphics: Um... they're better than the GBA ports, that's for sure. Not much to say here - it's not something I care about much.
The Gameplay/Story: Let's split this up into an analysis of each individual case, shall we? Less complicated that way.
First off, though, let's deal with something here that really, really irks me. And for this I'm going to draw comparisons to 1-5, because it's the only other time we get DS specific functions. I speak of Scientific Investigation.
In 1-5, Scientific Investigation largely involved the Luminol Testing fluid, as well as the Fingerprinting Kit. When you could make use of that thing, it was largely at your own discretion - you might not find a lot, but at least you tried. Note that I wasn't the biggest fan of Scientific Investigation in 1-5, but I wrote it off as an experimentation on the designer's part and expected it to be fixed when AJ rolled around.
Nope. It got worse. Now 'Scientific Investigation' consists of a tedious and ridiculously simple minigame that you will use once in the game, and then never again. Having the information given to us wouldn't be fun, after all. We have to tap and slide the screen first! Bleh. Total bleh. What a let down.
Next up - Perception. Actually handled pretty well, except that unlike Psyche-Locks and Cross Examinations, you're not really given much clues where to look, which can lead to trial-and-error crap. One think I liked about this is that closeup you can see into their eyes even if they're wearing dark glasses.
That aside, let's start.
Case 4-1:
Case 4-2:
Case 4-3:
Case 4-4:
Case 4-4 was a complete letdown to the story in so many ways. I haven't even gotten to the parts of the game I'm really disappointed in.
Characterization:
Let's admit it. The Ace Attorney series is a character-driven game. Therefore if you want to play this game, most of us would want good characters to root for (and to fight against, when it comes down to it.) So how does Apollo Justice fare in this department?
Not too good.
Near the start of my post/rant, I talked about comparisons to PW:AA. Well, this is where it comes in. I'll be making comparisons of the equivalent 'main' characters of the game. Hold on to your silk hats.
Defense Attorney Apollo Justice:
"Here comes Justice!"
Magician Trucy:
"Cute is timeless! Cute is eternal!"
Prosecutor Klavier Gavin:
"It's better to keep things civil between us, ja?"
Detective Ema Skye:
"Quiet, please. It's snack time."
Kristoph Gavin:
Legendary Defense Attorney Phoenix Wright:
"Judge wisely. Judge well."
Final Verdict:
Well, I've ragged a lot on AJ:AA here. I enjoyed the game a lot (though you might not get that impression from reading what I posted). The jokes were great. The translation was superb. The story, however, fell flat on it's face. Would I recommend this game? Sure. Would I buy this game? I did - even after knowing what I would and wouldn't like about it. But could it stand improvement? Yes, yes, a thousand times yes.
Here's to hoping they do better with AA5.
After purchasing and completing the english version of Gyakuten Saiban 4, otherwise known as Apollo Justice: Ace Attorney, I feel secure in saying this:
This is the absolute worst game in the series.
How am I justified in making this remark? I'll do so by comparing this to the other game that started a lawyer-trilogy, otherwise known as Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney. Note that aside from specific issues, my comparison will solely deal with 1-1 to 1-4 of AA1, because otherwise it's simply not fair to AJ:AA.
Right. Let's break this up simple. What better way to do that than with a spoiler-filled review?
SPOILERS FROM HERE ON OUT, YE BE WARNED
Apollo Justice: Ace Attorney
The Music: The music is fantastic. A wide variety of excellent tracks add variety to the mood, as well as a remixed version of a tune I always really liked back in the day. 'The Child of Magic' isn't as good as 'The Turnabout Sisters', but then again I consider 'The Turnabout Sisters' my favourite theme in the series, so I might be skewing this a bit.
The Graphics: Um... they're better than the GBA ports, that's for sure. Not much to say here - it's not something I care about much.
The Gameplay/Story: Let's split this up into an analysis of each individual case, shall we? Less complicated that way.
First off, though, let's deal with something here that really, really irks me. And for this I'm going to draw comparisons to 1-5, because it's the only other time we get DS specific functions. I speak of Scientific Investigation.
In 1-5, Scientific Investigation largely involved the Luminol Testing fluid, as well as the Fingerprinting Kit. When you could make use of that thing, it was largely at your own discretion - you might not find a lot, but at least you tried. Note that I wasn't the biggest fan of Scientific Investigation in 1-5, but I wrote it off as an experimentation on the designer's part and expected it to be fixed when AJ rolled around.
Nope. It got worse. Now 'Scientific Investigation' consists of a tedious and ridiculously simple minigame that you will use once in the game, and then never again. Having the information given to us wouldn't be fun, after all. We have to tap and slide the screen first! Bleh. Total bleh. What a let down.
Next up - Perception. Actually handled pretty well, except that unlike Psyche-Locks and Cross Examinations, you're not really given much clues where to look, which can lead to trial-and-error crap. One think I liked about this is that closeup you can see into their eyes even if they're wearing dark glasses.
That aside, let's start.
Case 4-1:
This case delivered on almost all fronts - it gave you a good tutorial and served as an adequate stepping stone into the world of Ace Attorney, it had some nice investigation segments (although I expected a bit more from the whole '3D room' bit. It also helped served as a buildup for the inevitable climax, since it also opened up a lot of mysteries, such as Phoenix's fall from grace, Apollo's history, etc. One complaint would be that near the end of the case you weren't doing much more than running errands for Phoenix as he solved the case, but I can let that slide on account of Apollo supposedly being a rookie. The best first case of the series.
Case 4-2:
Whoo. Our introduction to Ema Skye and Klavier Gavin (both of whom will be dealt with later. Also, the start of tedious and all but useless minigames under the guise of 'Scientific Investigation'. Surprisingly enough, it appears to have swapped places with the third case in the series by having relatively little significance to the overarching plot (aside from Apollo hooking up with the 'Wright Anything Agency'), as well as the 3rd cases' predisposition to lots of mindless backtracking.
The supporting cast in this case was great. Stickler, Wocky, Little Plum, and Eldoon. Oh, man, I love Eldoon. Eldoon is nine different kinds of awesome, and my spirits lifted a little whenever he pulled out his harmonica. The 'wacky' case, and it pulled off the cast well. Unfortunately, the villain here stinks. She's a poor man's Dahlia Hawthorne.
Overall, great case.
The supporting cast in this case was great. Stickler, Wocky, Little Plum, and Eldoon. Oh, man, I love Eldoon. Eldoon is nine different kinds of awesome, and my spirits lifted a little whenever he pulled out his harmonica. The 'wacky' case, and it pulled off the cast well. Unfortunately, the villain here stinks. She's a poor man's Dahlia Hawthorne.
Overall, great case.
Case 4-3:
There's a time and place for suspension of disbelief. And then there's times like these when you look at plots that resemble swiss cheese and you just shake your head and sigh. I'm supposed to believe a 14-year old kid can properly handle a .45 caliber gun, and that said 14-year old kid proceeds to drag a dead guy more than twice his size to the stage whereupon he passes out for no reason at all. Oh, wait, I'm not supposed to believe that. I'm supposed to believe that people in the Court can believe that. Yugh.
Also, somehow someone who's gotten shot with a .45 in the shoulder can live for up to twenty minutes. Riiiight.
Oh, well. Working with what we've got, the case breaks the trend of the series' third cases, which typically feature a wacky cast of characters with little significance to the overarching plot. There is a significant plot tie-in. I'll deal with that in my talk on Case 4-4.
The 'plot twists' of this case felt forced. "I'm blind!. No, wait, actually, she's the blind one.' 'He can't understand english, except that... he, um, actually sorta can.'
It's also painfully obvious that this case was shoe-horned into fitting the 'oh, the current judicial system sucks' shtick in so as to prepare for 4-4. Nevermind that the entire judicial system of the Ace Attorney world has been farcical from the very beginning. 'But it's a videogame!' you cry, and yes, I fully agree. I am fully prepared to accept that ridiculous nature of the Ace Attorney series - I like the games partly for how the judicial system has been set up. But to suddenly decry it after at least fourteen years and scream for a sudden turnaround is contrived, at best, and speaks of shoddy writing. You'll notice that Phoenix was in situations far more pressing and dire than anything Apollo was facing with Daryan. Where was the 'this judicial system sucks' back then?
Speaking of Daryan, he's awesome. Aside from the main cast, he was the best character in the case, and almost signle-handedly redeemed the case for me.
"Tell him I said 'Hi'. And 'Screw you'."
Also, somehow someone who's gotten shot with a .45 in the shoulder can live for up to twenty minutes. Riiiight.
Oh, well. Working with what we've got, the case breaks the trend of the series' third cases, which typically feature a wacky cast of characters with little significance to the overarching plot. There is a significant plot tie-in. I'll deal with that in my talk on Case 4-4.
The 'plot twists' of this case felt forced. "I'm blind!. No, wait, actually, she's the blind one.' 'He can't understand english, except that... he, um, actually sorta can.'
It's also painfully obvious that this case was shoe-horned into fitting the 'oh, the current judicial system sucks' shtick in so as to prepare for 4-4. Nevermind that the entire judicial system of the Ace Attorney world has been farcical from the very beginning. 'But it's a videogame!' you cry, and yes, I fully agree. I am fully prepared to accept that ridiculous nature of the Ace Attorney series - I like the games partly for how the judicial system has been set up. But to suddenly decry it after at least fourteen years and scream for a sudden turnaround is contrived, at best, and speaks of shoddy writing. You'll notice that Phoenix was in situations far more pressing and dire than anything Apollo was facing with Daryan. Where was the 'this judicial system sucks' back then?
Speaking of Daryan, he's awesome. Aside from the main cast, he was the best character in the case, and almost signle-handedly redeemed the case for me.
"Tell him I said 'Hi'. And 'Screw you'."
Case 4-4:
What. I... what... what is this? This... crap is what your grand buildup for the past three cases was leading up to, Capcom? Seriously? I... argh.
I HATE this case. I have never felt this way about any Ace Attorney case before, even the much-maligned ones like 2-3. It's inconsistent, it's a humongous letdown, it's got plotholes big enough to fly the Spruce Goose through, and... well, let's leave the character discussions for later.
The attempted tying up of all loose ends through series of increasingly contrived knots is fine, if slightly head-scratching. The case has some great moments to it, such as Valant Gramarye, because any guy that yells 'AlakaZOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMG' is awesome in my book. It's also got one of the best breakdown animations ever, along with the coolest Perception. (Eyes of DOOM and devil scar FTW.)
Unfortunately, it also has Spark Brushel. I hate Spark Brushel. I loathe Spark Brushel.
Still, he's just a character. My three main criticisms of the case are as follows:
Flux Capacitators: Taking a bottle of nail-polish from a jail cell in the year 2025 to present to a 12-year old in the year 2018 is... wow. This is either a humongous, gross oversight on Capcom's part, or they simply muttered 'Screw this' and stuck it in. Either way it's pretty much a 'blink blink WHAT' moment. It ruins the credibility of the investigation. And before anyone throws down the 'suspension of disbelief' card, suspension of disbelief is accepting the rules of the world as it is presented to you. I can accept Ace Attorney's idiotic judicial system because that is the way the game world presents itself, as well as acceptance that spirit mediums and the like exist, because it is all consistent to the game world that is given to you. Time travelling, however, is most certainly not.
Dumb motivations: Shadi Smith, Kristoph Gavin... the idiocy runs the gamut. I'm still staggered by how Capcom decided that their motivations for their actions were sufficient in a game as character-driven as this.
"I'm so glad that you've taken care of my daughter for me this seven years. Here are the rights to a set of magic tricks handed to me by my mentor. Also, I need to go into hiding again, but before that I WILL RUIN YOUR LIVELIHOOD BY CHEATING TO BEAT YOU, THE UNDEFEATED CHAMPION IN POKER, and... uh, I guess that would kinda draw attention to myself and wreck my 'fade into obscurity' plan, wouldn't it. And I'd be wrecking the income source for the guy who's in charge of my daughter, wouldn't I?"
"He chose Phoenix Wright over me? ME?! MUST WRECK HIS CAREER! RARARRARARAAAAAGH, KRISTOPH SMASH!"
I'll go into further detail over Kristoph later.
MASON/Jurist system: Well stick me in a hat and tar and feather me. When the final section of the trial consists of you simply pressing the 'A' button and listening to banter between four (well, five if one counts Udgey) underdeveloped characters, it... kinda ruins the mood. Where was the fight? The struggle? The attempt to break down Kristoph Gavin?
"By the way, we've got a jury. And, uh, Phoenix Wright did that."
"WRRRRRRRRRRRRRIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIGGGGGHHHTTTTTTTTTT!"
...Yeah. Also, anyone wanna discuss how a disbarred lawyer found guilty for forgery gets to redesign to judicial system?
I HATE this case. I have never felt this way about any Ace Attorney case before, even the much-maligned ones like 2-3. It's inconsistent, it's a humongous letdown, it's got plotholes big enough to fly the Spruce Goose through, and... well, let's leave the character discussions for later.
The attempted tying up of all loose ends through series of increasingly contrived knots is fine, if slightly head-scratching. The case has some great moments to it, such as Valant Gramarye, because any guy that yells 'AlakaZOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMG' is awesome in my book. It's also got one of the best breakdown animations ever, along with the coolest Perception. (Eyes of DOOM and devil scar FTW.)
Unfortunately, it also has Spark Brushel. I hate Spark Brushel. I loathe Spark Brushel.
Still, he's just a character. My three main criticisms of the case are as follows:
Flux Capacitators: Taking a bottle of nail-polish from a jail cell in the year 2025 to present to a 12-year old in the year 2018 is... wow. This is either a humongous, gross oversight on Capcom's part, or they simply muttered 'Screw this' and stuck it in. Either way it's pretty much a 'blink blink WHAT' moment. It ruins the credibility of the investigation. And before anyone throws down the 'suspension of disbelief' card, suspension of disbelief is accepting the rules of the world as it is presented to you. I can accept Ace Attorney's idiotic judicial system because that is the way the game world presents itself, as well as acceptance that spirit mediums and the like exist, because it is all consistent to the game world that is given to you. Time travelling, however, is most certainly not.
Dumb motivations: Shadi Smith, Kristoph Gavin... the idiocy runs the gamut. I'm still staggered by how Capcom decided that their motivations for their actions were sufficient in a game as character-driven as this.
"I'm so glad that you've taken care of my daughter for me this seven years. Here are the rights to a set of magic tricks handed to me by my mentor. Also, I need to go into hiding again, but before that I WILL RUIN YOUR LIVELIHOOD BY CHEATING TO BEAT YOU, THE UNDEFEATED CHAMPION IN POKER, and... uh, I guess that would kinda draw attention to myself and wreck my 'fade into obscurity' plan, wouldn't it. And I'd be wrecking the income source for the guy who's in charge of my daughter, wouldn't I?"
"He chose Phoenix Wright over me? ME?! MUST WRECK HIS CAREER! RARARRARARAAAAAGH, KRISTOPH SMASH!"
I'll go into further detail over Kristoph later.
MASON/Jurist system: Well stick me in a hat and tar and feather me. When the final section of the trial consists of you simply pressing the 'A' button and listening to banter between four (well, five if one counts Udgey) underdeveloped characters, it... kinda ruins the mood. Where was the fight? The struggle? The attempt to break down Kristoph Gavin?
"By the way, we've got a jury. And, uh, Phoenix Wright did that."
"WRRRRRRRRRRRRRIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIGGGGGHHHTTTTTTTTTT!"
...Yeah. Also, anyone wanna discuss how a disbarred lawyer found guilty for forgery gets to redesign to judicial system?
Case 4-4 was a complete letdown to the story in so many ways. I haven't even gotten to the parts of the game I'm really disappointed in.
Characterization:
Let's admit it. The Ace Attorney series is a character-driven game. Therefore if you want to play this game, most of us would want good characters to root for (and to fight against, when it comes down to it.) So how does Apollo Justice fare in this department?
Not too good.
Near the start of my post/rant, I talked about comparisons to PW:AA. Well, this is where it comes in. I'll be making comparisons of the equivalent 'main' characters of the game. Hold on to your silk hats.
Defense Attorney Apollo Justice:
"Here comes Justice!"
Right, let's get one thing out of the way. I like Apollo Justice. I like his drive, his passion for justice. I like his personality quirks.
However, he's a cardboard cutout. (Get ready to see this phrase a whole lot.) Let me ask you - at the end of the game, what more do we know about his character, his motivations, his reasons for doing what he does than we do at the beginning? The answer? Zero. Zilch. Zip. Nada. NOTHING. We don't know why he became a lawyer. We don't know about how his passion for Justice came about. We don't know why he joined up under Gavin, why he wants to defend the innocent.
Contrast this with Phoenix Wright from the first game. As the game begins, he's helping his hopeless goof of a friend out of a jam. We hear that was 'art of the reason he became a defense attorney'. Then, in the critical fourth case, the whole truth comes to light - as a child he was defended by Miles Edgeworth and Larry Butz when accused of something he didn't do. And he wants to help his friend, Miles Edgeworth, whom he feels has gotten into something over his head, and the only way he could guarantee access to the Demon Prosecutor was to become an attorney himself. This, in fact, fits extremely well with Phoenix's overall personality - he's pretty apathetic towards most things except for his friends, which he is fiercely passionate about. Phoenix received character development.
And by the way, before the word 'Lamiroir' or 'Thalassa' is mentioned at all, think long and hard - how does knowing Apollo has a mother change anything? That's right - it doesn't! He makes no mention of his family, about him being bereft of his parents, or... well, anything at all. Aside from his bracelet, his mother's existence isn't really worth beans in the context of this game.
However, he's a cardboard cutout. (Get ready to see this phrase a whole lot.) Let me ask you - at the end of the game, what more do we know about his character, his motivations, his reasons for doing what he does than we do at the beginning? The answer? Zero. Zilch. Zip. Nada. NOTHING. We don't know why he became a lawyer. We don't know about how his passion for Justice came about. We don't know why he joined up under Gavin, why he wants to defend the innocent.
Contrast this with Phoenix Wright from the first game. As the game begins, he's helping his hopeless goof of a friend out of a jam. We hear that was 'art of the reason he became a defense attorney'. Then, in the critical fourth case, the whole truth comes to light - as a child he was defended by Miles Edgeworth and Larry Butz when accused of something he didn't do. And he wants to help his friend, Miles Edgeworth, whom he feels has gotten into something over his head, and the only way he could guarantee access to the Demon Prosecutor was to become an attorney himself. This, in fact, fits extremely well with Phoenix's overall personality - he's pretty apathetic towards most things except for his friends, which he is fiercely passionate about. Phoenix received character development.
And by the way, before the word 'Lamiroir' or 'Thalassa' is mentioned at all, think long and hard - how does knowing Apollo has a mother change anything? That's right - it doesn't! He makes no mention of his family, about him being bereft of his parents, or... well, anything at all. Aside from his bracelet, his mother's existence isn't really worth beans in the context of this game.
Magician Trucy:
"Cute is timeless! Cute is eternal!"
Ah, Trucy. Ever lovable Trucy. Cute as a button. Smart as a whip. And she gets Mr. Hat.
She's smart, helpful, intelligent, pretty, and she hits it off great with Apollo when they get to meet. That's good, right? Certainly better than Maya, right?"
I willingly grant that she is helpful, she has great dialogue, and she's got a good design. And she gets Mr. Hat.
I like Trucy a lot. I grin a lot at her antics.
But that's the most I ever give. A grin. Trucy gives me no real reason whatsoever to care about her as a character.
I write fanfiction as a hobby. I don't claim to be particularly good at it, but many fanfiction writers try at all costs to avoid 'the Mary-Sue'. The character who's so gifted at everything that s/he stretches the boundaries and simply becomes unbelievable.
Trucy? She's a toned-down Mary-Sue. A textbook example. Girl with mysterious, deeply significant past and unique abilities. Never in the wrong mood. Outstanding personality. Likes all, is liked by all. No problems whatsoever. Criminally cute.
As a gag reel and an 'awwww' initiator, Trucy is a marvel. As a character, she's flatter than her chest. Cardboard cutout no. 2
Hold it - what about what Phoenix says at the end of the game? Ah, yes, another cardinal rule of storytelling - show, not tell. If someone has to come right up and say 'She's secretly feeling bad deep inside', it doesn't ring with any emotional impact whatsoever. Maya displayed more emotion in the single instant of her listening to her sister's recorded message than Trucy did in the entirety of the game.
And speaking of Maya, she's a far more developed character than Trucy. Throughout the first game you can see her struggling with feelings of being useless. For me, the shining points of Maya's career in the first game was when she yelled HOLD IT! at Lotta Hart over her worthless testimony, and later on when she jumped in front of Von Karma to defend Phoenix. Trucy receives no such treatment... except for her kidnapping of herself. Maya got charged with contempt of court for her antics. Trucy... um... yeah.
Maya is also far from perfect. She's irascible, incorrigible, perky to the point of being childish, and thus she makes an excellent character foil for Phoenix. Let me ask you - if you were to describe Apollo's and Trucy's relationship (that they know of), how would you do so? I can't get into the too descriptive - close friends at most. With Phoenix and Maya , however, it's very obvious from the get-go that she plays the comic to his straight man routine. Their personalities simply need to bounce off each other.
Also, as a sidenote, Ema received more character development in 1-5 than Trucy did in all of AJ:AA.
It's not all bad for Trucy, though. After all, she gets Mr. Hat.
She's smart, helpful, intelligent, pretty, and she hits it off great with Apollo when they get to meet. That's good, right? Certainly better than Maya, right?"
I willingly grant that she is helpful, she has great dialogue, and she's got a good design. And she gets Mr. Hat.
I like Trucy a lot. I grin a lot at her antics.
But that's the most I ever give. A grin. Trucy gives me no real reason whatsoever to care about her as a character.
I write fanfiction as a hobby. I don't claim to be particularly good at it, but many fanfiction writers try at all costs to avoid 'the Mary-Sue'. The character who's so gifted at everything that s/he stretches the boundaries and simply becomes unbelievable.
Trucy? She's a toned-down Mary-Sue. A textbook example. Girl with mysterious, deeply significant past and unique abilities. Never in the wrong mood. Outstanding personality. Likes all, is liked by all. No problems whatsoever. Criminally cute.
As a gag reel and an 'awwww' initiator, Trucy is a marvel. As a character, she's flatter than her chest. Cardboard cutout no. 2
Hold it - what about what Phoenix says at the end of the game? Ah, yes, another cardinal rule of storytelling - show, not tell. If someone has to come right up and say 'She's secretly feeling bad deep inside', it doesn't ring with any emotional impact whatsoever. Maya displayed more emotion in the single instant of her listening to her sister's recorded message than Trucy did in the entirety of the game.
And speaking of Maya, she's a far more developed character than Trucy. Throughout the first game you can see her struggling with feelings of being useless. For me, the shining points of Maya's career in the first game was when she yelled HOLD IT! at Lotta Hart over her worthless testimony, and later on when she jumped in front of Von Karma to defend Phoenix. Trucy receives no such treatment... except for her kidnapping of herself. Maya got charged with contempt of court for her antics. Trucy... um... yeah.
Maya is also far from perfect. She's irascible, incorrigible, perky to the point of being childish, and thus she makes an excellent character foil for Phoenix. Let me ask you - if you were to describe Apollo's and Trucy's relationship (that they know of), how would you do so? I can't get into the too descriptive - close friends at most. With Phoenix and Maya , however, it's very obvious from the get-go that she plays the comic to his straight man routine. Their personalities simply need to bounce off each other.
Also, as a sidenote, Ema received more character development in 1-5 than Trucy did in all of AJ:AA.
It's not all bad for Trucy, though. After all, she gets Mr. Hat.
Prosecutor Klavier Gavin:
"It's better to keep things civil between us, ja?"
A prosecutor who's more concerned with the truth than with winning the case. Wow! That... that's actually a pretty good idea!
Let it first be said that I see no problems with having a prosecutor who doesn't fight dirty. I prefer to expend energy on nailing the guilty parties anyway. The tradeoff, of course, is that the villains need to be stronger to stand the increased scrutiny, and aside from Alita Tiala, they do so.
The problem here lies (once again) in the harsh fact that Klavier Gavin is yet another cardboard cutout, given a flat personality and told to run with it. Why is he so concerned with the truth? Does this conflict with what occurs when he has a personal stake in the matter (4-3, 4-4)? None of this is addressed. Also, rather damningly, the chances for his personal issues over facing the man who put away his brother to be addressed are never taken. The developers seemed more interested in making sure his rock-star antics got sufficient screen time.
Contrast with Miles Edgeworth. The first time we met him he was a jerk of a prosecutor, pulling dirty tricks to get his win. Then we got some hints that there was more than meets the eye when he talked to Phoenix after trials. Then in 1-3, he started helping you against Dee Vasquez, when the truth was starting to become obvious. Well, that was new.
Then, in the fourth case, it all comes to light. The reasons for Edgeworth's behaviour, the character motivation, a glimpse into his past, and his relations to Phoenix, to Von Karma, to his deceased father. The darkness of his past is glimpsed, and we understand his character. Klavier gets no such treatment, even though there are multiple opportunities for it to occur.
Additionally, I could go on about how the same applies to Franziska and Godot, and not to Klavier, but I think I'll leave it at that. The point has been made.
Let it first be said that I see no problems with having a prosecutor who doesn't fight dirty. I prefer to expend energy on nailing the guilty parties anyway. The tradeoff, of course, is that the villains need to be stronger to stand the increased scrutiny, and aside from Alita Tiala, they do so.
The problem here lies (once again) in the harsh fact that Klavier Gavin is yet another cardboard cutout, given a flat personality and told to run with it. Why is he so concerned with the truth? Does this conflict with what occurs when he has a personal stake in the matter (4-3, 4-4)? None of this is addressed. Also, rather damningly, the chances for his personal issues over facing the man who put away his brother to be addressed are never taken. The developers seemed more interested in making sure his rock-star antics got sufficient screen time.
Contrast with Miles Edgeworth. The first time we met him he was a jerk of a prosecutor, pulling dirty tricks to get his win. Then we got some hints that there was more than meets the eye when he talked to Phoenix after trials. Then in 1-3, he started helping you against Dee Vasquez, when the truth was starting to become obvious. Well, that was new.
Then, in the fourth case, it all comes to light. The reasons for Edgeworth's behaviour, the character motivation, a glimpse into his past, and his relations to Phoenix, to Von Karma, to his deceased father. The darkness of his past is glimpsed, and we understand his character. Klavier gets no such treatment, even though there are multiple opportunities for it to occur.
Additionally, I could go on about how the same applies to Franziska and Godot, and not to Klavier, but I think I'll leave it at that. The point has been made.
Detective Ema Skye:
"Quiet, please. It's snack time."
You know, I've noticed something odd. I've visited a fair share of Phoenix Wright forums, and I've participated in a number of discussions, and I can never recall anyone, anyone saying they disliked Gumshoe. No one else was ever exempt. I can remember Edgeworth, Phoenix, Godot... basically everyone. But for some reason Gumshoe was never brought up in the same sentence as 'I dislike'.
As far as I'm concerned, Detective Ema Skye is one of the better done characters in the game - however part of that stems from characterization established in 1-5. So in a sense she's got an unfair leapfrog advantage over the rest of the main cast, who are in their debut game. (With one exception that we'll get to... in a moment.)
As far as I'm concerned, Detective Ema Skye is one of the better done characters in the game - however part of that stems from characterization established in 1-5. So in a sense she's got an unfair leapfrog advantage over the rest of the main cast, who are in their debut game. (With one exception that we'll get to... in a moment.)
Final Boss
"I killed a man named 'Smith' because I am an evil person. That's all there is to it."
Kristoph Gavin is diabolical. Also ridiculous.
His motivations are pathetic. He's jealous that he got picked over by Zak Gramarye? That's why he conspired to ruin Phoenix's life? Seriously?
Now, some are going to say 'Well, we're not going to have insight into Kristoph's mind. It may not make sense to you and me, but..." You are completely right. Which is why the parallel to Von Karma is so apt.
Von Karma went through measures that most normal people would consider horrendously extreme, as did Kristoph. The difference is in how their respective issues were handled.
We spent a large chunk of 1-4 learning about Manfred von Karma's perfectionist ways. How he never lost a trial, how he tried to be perfect in absolutely every aspect of his life. He even freaked out when he failed correctly predict how long a trial would take. For this reason, learning about the depths to which he was driven by that single penalty was not a large stretch. We understood how Von Karma would have felt.
Kristoph Gavin? We get a single throwaway line about how he looked down on Phoenix's skills - and that's it. That is his motivation for conspiring to wreck Phoenix's life when he got slighted. Seriously. This isn't even 'cardboard cutout'. This is 'dude wait what'.
Kristoph Gavin is diabolical. Also ridiculous.
His motivations are pathetic. He's jealous that he got picked over by Zak Gramarye? That's why he conspired to ruin Phoenix's life? Seriously?
Now, some are going to say 'Well, we're not going to have insight into Kristoph's mind. It may not make sense to you and me, but..." You are completely right. Which is why the parallel to Von Karma is so apt.
Von Karma went through measures that most normal people would consider horrendously extreme, as did Kristoph. The difference is in how their respective issues were handled.
We spent a large chunk of 1-4 learning about Manfred von Karma's perfectionist ways. How he never lost a trial, how he tried to be perfect in absolutely every aspect of his life. He even freaked out when he failed correctly predict how long a trial would take. For this reason, learning about the depths to which he was driven by that single penalty was not a large stretch. We understood how Von Karma would have felt.
Kristoph Gavin? We get a single throwaway line about how he looked down on Phoenix's skills - and that's it. That is his motivation for conspiring to wreck Phoenix's life when he got slighted. Seriously. This isn't even 'cardboard cutout'. This is 'dude wait what'.
Legendary Defense Attorney Phoenix Wright:
"Judge wisely. Judge well."
Okay, Phoenix Wright is pretty much the focal point of my getting pissed off at this game. I'll cover this in two broad areas.
The first was the crucial trial in which he lost his badge. This was a horrendously stupid and contrived setup. To believe that Phoenix Wright - the same Phoenix Wright whose cases we've all been playing through three games - would fall for this requires... well, it requires a lot more than what I've got.
One question. That was all it would take. One question to Drew Misham.
"When did you receive the order for the forgery to be done?"
First - forgeries are not done in the span of a single day.
Second - Phoenix Wright was not the defense attorney of the Zak Enigmar case until the day before the trial. Klavier Gavin knows this. He knows that Kristoph was supposed to be the defense attorney. Phoenix Wright had no time to get a forgery done.
Ergo? The client could not be Phoenix Wright. If asked about how he came in possession of the page, he could call Trucy to the stand to testify. In the Ace Attorney world, children are allowed to testify, and a witnesses' testimony is considered fact unless it can be disproved via evidence.
Phoenix Wright has been in dozens of sticky situations before, where he had to think on the fly. To think that he would let himself get caught like this... well, it's ridiculous.
The second major criticism (and in fact, I could extend this criticism to pretty much the entire main cast) is Phoenix Wright's relationships. Or lack thereof.
The essence of the storytelling in the Ace Attorney world stems from the relationships. No more, no less. Phoenix Wright's relations to Edgeworth, Maya, Pearls, Larry, Mia... Edgeworth's relations to Gregory, Manfred von Karma, Franziska, Gumshoe... Maya's relations to Nick, Pearly, Morgan, Mia... these are how their characters are fleshed out and developed. The first three games understood this. Observe their final cases (1-4, 1-5, 2-4, 3-5). All of them, without exception, emphasize a single crucial fact - everyone is pulling together to help out a friend in need. Whether it's Larry disrupting the courtroom after a Guilty verdict has been rendered, Phoenix and Edgeworth combining efforts to take down Damon Gant, Gumshoe wrapping his car around a telephone pole, or Franziska staying in a freezing mountain to work out a set of Trick Locks for Maya's sake, it all boils down to a single fact:
They would go to Hell and back for each other.
So... where the hell are they? Where's Edgeworth coming over to check on Wright after he loses his badge? Where's Maya, relentlessly cheerful Maya, coming over to make sure Nick is okay? Where's Pearls, reacting to Trucy calling Phoenix Wright 'daddy'?
You cannot excise the relationships from Phoenix Wright's character and still get Phoenix Wright. You cannot. The man in the beanie hat is unrecognizable as Phoenix Wright to me not for his snarkiness (he was always a bit of an ass), not for his appearace (it's still him), nor for his lack of usual mannerisms (they're quirks, they don't define him), but by the almost complete absence of the relationships that were forged over the course of three games.
Now, some are going to bring up the point that it's Apollo's story. Phoenix's relationships aren't as important. To which I reply - bullshit. Phoenix remains a focal point of the overarching story. The final boss is Phoenix's enemy, not Apollo's. You play over half of the final case as Phoenix, certainly enough time in the spotlight for Phoenix's relations to shine. If he had remained in his role in 1-2, a mentor/father who dropped by once in a while to check on you, that'd be fine. But if you want to drag him to the forefront, you have to drag the people he's tied to as well.
The first was the crucial trial in which he lost his badge. This was a horrendously stupid and contrived setup. To believe that Phoenix Wright - the same Phoenix Wright whose cases we've all been playing through three games - would fall for this requires... well, it requires a lot more than what I've got.
One question. That was all it would take. One question to Drew Misham.
"When did you receive the order for the forgery to be done?"
First - forgeries are not done in the span of a single day.
Second - Phoenix Wright was not the defense attorney of the Zak Enigmar case until the day before the trial. Klavier Gavin knows this. He knows that Kristoph was supposed to be the defense attorney. Phoenix Wright had no time to get a forgery done.
Ergo? The client could not be Phoenix Wright. If asked about how he came in possession of the page, he could call Trucy to the stand to testify. In the Ace Attorney world, children are allowed to testify, and a witnesses' testimony is considered fact unless it can be disproved via evidence.
Phoenix Wright has been in dozens of sticky situations before, where he had to think on the fly. To think that he would let himself get caught like this... well, it's ridiculous.
The second major criticism (and in fact, I could extend this criticism to pretty much the entire main cast) is Phoenix Wright's relationships. Or lack thereof.
The essence of the storytelling in the Ace Attorney world stems from the relationships. No more, no less. Phoenix Wright's relations to Edgeworth, Maya, Pearls, Larry, Mia... Edgeworth's relations to Gregory, Manfred von Karma, Franziska, Gumshoe... Maya's relations to Nick, Pearly, Morgan, Mia... these are how their characters are fleshed out and developed. The first three games understood this. Observe their final cases (1-4, 1-5, 2-4, 3-5). All of them, without exception, emphasize a single crucial fact - everyone is pulling together to help out a friend in need. Whether it's Larry disrupting the courtroom after a Guilty verdict has been rendered, Phoenix and Edgeworth combining efforts to take down Damon Gant, Gumshoe wrapping his car around a telephone pole, or Franziska staying in a freezing mountain to work out a set of Trick Locks for Maya's sake, it all boils down to a single fact:
They would go to Hell and back for each other.
So... where the hell are they? Where's Edgeworth coming over to check on Wright after he loses his badge? Where's Maya, relentlessly cheerful Maya, coming over to make sure Nick is okay? Where's Pearls, reacting to Trucy calling Phoenix Wright 'daddy'?
You cannot excise the relationships from Phoenix Wright's character and still get Phoenix Wright. You cannot. The man in the beanie hat is unrecognizable as Phoenix Wright to me not for his snarkiness (he was always a bit of an ass), not for his appearace (it's still him), nor for his lack of usual mannerisms (they're quirks, they don't define him), but by the almost complete absence of the relationships that were forged over the course of three games.
Now, some are going to bring up the point that it's Apollo's story. Phoenix's relationships aren't as important. To which I reply - bullshit. Phoenix remains a focal point of the overarching story. The final boss is Phoenix's enemy, not Apollo's. You play over half of the final case as Phoenix, certainly enough time in the spotlight for Phoenix's relations to shine. If he had remained in his role in 1-2, a mentor/father who dropped by once in a while to check on you, that'd be fine. But if you want to drag him to the forefront, you have to drag the people he's tied to as well.
Final Verdict:
Well, I've ragged a lot on AJ:AA here. I enjoyed the game a lot (though you might not get that impression from reading what I posted). The jokes were great. The translation was superb. The story, however, fell flat on it's face. Would I recommend this game? Sure. Would I buy this game? I did - even after knowing what I would and wouldn't like about it. But could it stand improvement? Yes, yes, a thousand times yes.
Here's to hoping they do better with AA5.
Besides the usual OSTs there is an orchestrated album called "Gyakuten Saiban Orchestra Album ~Gyakuten Meets Orchestra~" and it's very good. There's also one with jazz arrangements called "Gyakuten Saiban Jazz Album ~Gyakuten Meets Jazz Soul~" but I never got ahold of it. More info here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ace_Attorney#SoundtracksDangerStepp said:
Alaluef said:
Gyakuten Meets Jazz is the best one of the three albums that I have. (Orchestra, Cadenza, and Jazz). It takes a few listens, but it's absolutely fantastic. Great Edo's Warrior Tonosaman and Godot's Theme are sooooooo good.
Pureauthor said:
I'll stand by my earlier rankings of 3>4>1>2, just because of the production values (music, translation, graphics etc.) and AJ having the best opening and third cases in the series.
But after reading your critique, I think I have to agree on pretty much all things you had an issue with. As I said previously in this thread, I don't think I've played a Gyakuten Saiban game with so many unanswered questions filled with characters with such poorly understood motivations. If they manage to address them in a convincing manner in the next game or games (they left enough hints and hooks to hopefully do that), there won't be an issue and we'll all look back on this chapter as a necessary stepping stone into a new series. If not..... oooo boy, they would have totally jumped the shark.
Hcoregamer00
The 'H' stands for hentai.
DangerStepp said:
Naturally you would think that.
For the guys I think that Machi is cute, but for the girls I still like Trucy.
Nuclear Muffin
Banned
Just finished the game, in short,
Apollo and Trucy are great, likeable characters to build upon but sadly we won't really get to see that development until the next game.
In terms of gameplay elements, Capcom hit the nail on the head! Great use of the DS's functionality and the "Percieve" ability is freaking awesome! (Best new addition to the series ever!) I am still miffed abut the removal of Profile presenting though, hopefully that comes back in AA5. I was also hoping for more of
Also
AA4 is really the end of Phoenix's story and a hint towards the start of Apollo's in AA5.
it's really phoenix's story and nobody elses. The entire game was just a build up to the final case where Phoenix gets his revenge, all the other 3 cases before it were very run of the mill. It's great but I was disappointed that Apollo, Klavier and Trucy got so little character development, but it is set up quite nicely for AA5. It really feels like a close to Phoenix's story and the beginning of a new one, again it's not a bad thing as Phoenix's story needed that final closure, now he can take a back seat and let Apollo take over.
Apollo and Trucy are great, likeable characters to build upon but sadly we won't really get to see that development until the next game.
In terms of gameplay elements, Capcom hit the nail on the head! Great use of the DS's functionality and the "Percieve" ability is freaking awesome! (Best new addition to the series ever!) I am still miffed abut the removal of Profile presenting though, hopefully that comes back in AA5. I was also hoping for more of
the crime reconstruction sequences like in the first case with the chair but I'm sure we'll see more of that in AA5 Case 4's Matrix time travel evidence gathering/piecing together over the years (Don't take it so literally and you'll understand it)
"Flux Capacitators: Taking a bottle of nail-polish from a jail cell in the year 2025 to present to a 12-year old in the year 2018 is... wow. This is either a humongous, gross oversight on Capcom's part, or they simply muttered 'Screw this' and stuck it in. Either way it's pretty much a 'blink blink WHAT' moment. It ruins the credibility of the investigation. And before anyone throws down the 'suspension of disbelief' card, suspension of disbelief is accepting the rules of the world as it is presented to you. I can accept Ace Attorney's idiotic judicial system because that is the way the game world presents itself, as well as acceptance that spirit mediums and the like exist, because it is all consistent to the game world that is given to you. Time travelling, however, is most certainly not."
Phoenix doesn't literally go back in time and show the nail polish to a 12 year old, it's supposed to be him piecing evidence together that he has collected over the 7 years and showing it to Apollo and the Jury
Case 4's Matrix time travel evidence gathering/piecing together over the years (Don't take it so literally and you'll understand it)"Flux Capacitators: Taking a bottle of nail-polish from a jail cell in the year 2025 to present to a 12-year old in the year 2018 is... wow. This is either a humongous, gross oversight on Capcom's part, or they simply muttered 'Screw this' and stuck it in. Either way it's pretty much a 'blink blink WHAT' moment. It ruins the credibility of the investigation. And before anyone throws down the 'suspension of disbelief' card, suspension of disbelief is accepting the rules of the world as it is presented to you. I can accept Ace Attorney's idiotic judicial system because that is the way the game world presents itself, as well as acceptance that spirit mediums and the like exist, because it is all consistent to the game world that is given to you. Time travelling, however, is most certainly not."
Phoenix doesn't literally go back in time and show the nail polish to a 12 year old, it's supposed to be him piecing evidence together that he has collected over the 7 years and showing it to Apollo and the Jury
Also
JURY SYSTEM FINALLY!!! I'VE BEEN WAITING FOR THIS EVER SINCE AA1!!! I thought it was a bit of a cop-out having them outside of the court room watching via video camera, hopefully they'll drag them into the court room and integrate them into the gameplay a bit more in AA5 now that the Judicial trial is over and set in place!)
AA4 is really the end of Phoenix's story and a hint towards the start of Apollo's in AA5.
Just finished it and I gotta say, I really hate most of the new characters. Not because they are new but because they plainly suck. Apollo and Trucy are cheap rip-offs of Phoenix and Maya, Gavin is nowhere as cool as Edgey, von Karma or Godot. Ema would be a nice character but she is just horribly used -- especially compared to Gumshoe. I was so happy when I was finally allowed to
because it felt so much better. Maybe it's because I love AA 1-3 so much but I was open to new characters... they just don't work.
As for DS functionality I have to agree with John Walker, it could be so much more. Having the evidence in 3D makes almost no sense, every use of a forensic tool feels just like a tutorial (fingerprints!). The perceive system is nice but the magatama needs to return. The investigation parts felt really slow this time.
What I don't get is, why case 1-5 alone worked so much better than the whole AA4. If I didn't knew better, I'd think they developed AA4 before the AA1 bonus-case.
play Phoenix in Case 4-4
As for DS functionality I have to agree with John Walker, it could be so much more. Having the evidence in 3D makes almost no sense, every use of a forensic tool feels just like a tutorial (fingerprints!). The perceive system is nice but the magatama needs to return. The investigation parts felt really slow this time.
What I don't get is, why case 1-5 alone worked so much better than the whole AA4. If I didn't knew better, I'd think they developed AA4 before the AA1 bonus-case.
QFT.Pureauthor said:
Maybe it's explained better in case 4 (which I'm just starting), but it doesn't make much sense that pheonix would get disbarred for
, but edgeworth didn't despite being suspected for it multiple times? I guess it might be similar to the whole fake phoenix thing in the 3rd(?) game
fake evidence
Crumpet Trumpet
Banned
I think most of your problems stem from the lack of character development, no? I don't think it's fair to compare AA1 to AA4, because iirc the AA team didn't know how the series would work out, so they shoved all the character development into the first game just because they didn't know if there would be another one. Now that AA is a nice seller, I think the team realized they can expand the development through many games.Pureauthor said:
After all, we still haven't broken Kristoph's Black Psyche-Locks. He could still have stuff to hide.
But I still agree with your post, and I think it makes AA4 is lesser game because of the slower character development.
Crazymoogle
Member
It's cool to see so many opinions on the game here, but I almost feel like I'm on the wrong side of a mirror, because quite frankly I think Apollo Justice is the second best game in the series behind the DS original.
3D evidence checking: cool
BGM: clearly second best in the series
Story and Characters: love em.
Lie Detecting System: blows Magatama out of the water.
Anyway, at the very least, Ace Attorney continues to show that it is a flagship series for the DS; one that I can't imagine having as much fun with on ANY other platform. (sigh...imagine if the first 3 got some of the upgrades like we saw in AA1 case 5 or the entirety of AA4?)
*runs away to go work on the 4th case*
3D evidence checking: cool
BGM: clearly second best in the series
Story and Characters: love em.
Lie Detecting System: blows Magatama out of the water.
Anyway, at the very least, Ace Attorney continues to show that it is a flagship series for the DS; one that I can't imagine having as much fun with on ANY other platform. (sigh...imagine if the first 3 got some of the upgrades like we saw in AA1 case 5 or the entirety of AA4?)
*runs away to go work on the 4th case*
Hcoregamer00
The 'H' stands for hentai.
Crazymoogle said:
No, you are not on the wrong side of the battlefield.
The people who have complaints are legitimate because Phoenix played too prominent a role and didn't have any development for Trucy and Apollo. Hence why I see big complaints about the people not liking the two main cast members.
Also, they are comparing it to a trilogy, a complete story arc. This is more a transition between one story arc to the next. Instead of viewing this as a transitional piece, they view this as the the beginning of the new story arc, when in reality there are too many ties to the old one to be viewed as the beginning.
Hopefully with Ace Attorney 5, they will completely cut ties will the old cast, and develop the new ones, because any connection with the past is holding back the franchise from developing and flowering on its own accord.
Hours Left
Member
Just finished it and I enjoyed it very much. I like the new cast. (Vera is love) Granted they do need more development but this was just the first game of Apollo's arc. As long as Capcom give them more time in the spotlight, I'll be happy.
Hcoregamer00 said:
Here's the way I look at it. Now that Phoenix isn't the main character they're letting him get into all kinds of crazy hi-jinx and letting his personality develop more.
There's a theory that you leave the main character in a game blank to let people pour their own personality into it. We do learn lots about Apollo's origins in this one, but his personality is only explored in relation to Trucy and his interactions with his clients and rivals. I'm cool with that.
Let game seven dig deep into Apollo's personality when the new lawyer has to get him out of a pickle.
Here's my first post in this thread.
Why didn't i post here before, being such a huge AA fan? well, i'm shit-scared for spoilers.
But now, no more, because i finished Apollo Justice in this exact moment.
What an experience.
Here's my list of the best-to-worst cases of the whole series
Case 1 ~ from best to worst
Apollo Justice
Trials & Tribulations
Justice for All
Phoenix Wright
Case 2 ~ from best to worst
Trials & Tribulations
Justice for All
Apollo Justice
Phoenix Wright
Case 3 ~ from best to worst
Trials & Tribulations
Apollo Justice
Phoenix Wright
Justice for All
Case 4 ~ from best to worst
Apollo Justice
Justice for All
Phoenix Wright
Trials & Tribulations
Case 5 ~ from best to worst [spoiler-tag because not all the games got a "Case 5"]
Let me know if you agree.
Also,
"Best Case Ever"...
Why didn't i post here before, being such a huge AA fan? well, i'm shit-scared for spoilers.
But now, no more, because i finished Apollo Justice in this exact moment.
What an experience.
Here's my list of the best-to-worst cases of the whole series
Case 1 ~ from best to worst
Apollo Justice
Trials & Tribulations
Justice for All
Phoenix Wright
Case 2 ~ from best to worst
Trials & Tribulations
Justice for All
Apollo Justice
Phoenix Wright
Case 3 ~ from best to worst
Trials & Tribulations
Apollo Justice
Phoenix Wright
Justice for All
Case 4 ~ from best to worst
Apollo Justice
Justice for All
Phoenix Wright
Trials & Tribulations
Case 5 ~ from best to worst [spoiler-tag because not all the games got a "Case 5"]
Trials & Tribulations
Phoenix Wright
No "case 5" in Apollo Justice
No "case 5" in Justice for All
Phoenix Wright
No "case 5" in Apollo Justice
No "case 5" in Justice for All
Let me know if you agree.
Also,
"Best Case Ever"...
Case 5 from Ace Attorney Phoenix Wright: Trials & Tribulations
PandaPandaPanda
Member
Spoit said:
By the time you finish case 4(the last case), it'll be explained
Crumpet Trumpet
Banned
Good idea Wizpig! I hope you don't mind if I do one too...
Case 1 ~ from best to worst
Trials & Tribulations
Apollo Justice
Phoenix Wright
Justice for All
Case 2 ~ from best to worst
Apollo Justice
Phoenix Wright
Justice for All
Trials & Tribulations
Case 3 ~ from best to worst
Phoenix Wright
Trials & Tribulations
Justice for All
Apollo Justice
Case 4 ~ from best to worst
Apollo Justice
Justice for All
Phoenix Wright
Trials & Tribulations
Case 5 ~ from best to worst [spoiler-tag because not all the games got a "Case 5"]
Wow, mine vary wildly...I guess.
Best Case Ever...
Case 1 ~ from best to worst
Trials & Tribulations
Apollo Justice
Phoenix Wright
Justice for All
Case 2 ~ from best to worst
Apollo Justice
Phoenix Wright
Justice for All
Trials & Tribulations
Case 3 ~ from best to worst
Phoenix Wright
Trials & Tribulations
Justice for All
Apollo Justice
Case 4 ~ from best to worst
Apollo Justice
Justice for All
Phoenix Wright
Trials & Tribulations
Case 5 ~ from best to worst [spoiler-tag because not all the games got a "Case 5"]
Trials & Tribulations
Phoenix Wright
No "case 5" in Apollo Justice
No "case 5" in Justice for All
Phoenix Wright
No "case 5" in Apollo Justice
No "case 5" in Justice for All
Wow, mine vary wildly...I guess.
Best Case Ever...
Case 5 in Trials & Tribulations
Link1110
Member
Crumpet Trumpet said:
Not a fair comparison. you'd have to compare all the "final cases" to each other. I'd group them as "First Case," "Story related mid game case," "Filler* case," and "Final case"
those would include:
First: 1-1, 2-1, 3-1, 4-1
Story related: 1-2, 2-2, 3-2, 4-3
Filler: 1-3, 2-3, 3-3, 4-2
Final: 1-4, 1-5, 2-4, 3-4 and 3-5, 4-4
Lumping 3-4 and 3-5 together is appropriate, since they kind of did the same thing in 4-4 without giving it its own case.
*Don't really like the term, but can't think of a better one at the moment
Anyway, going by my ranking system...
First: 4-1, 3-1, 1-1, 2-1
Story related: 3-2, 4-3, 2-1, 1-2
Filler: 4-2, 3-3, 1-3, 2-3
Final: 3-4 and 3-5, 2-4, 1-4, 1-5, 4-4
I'll just steal your format and put my 2 cents in.
Here's my list of the best-to-worst cases of the whole series
Case 1 ~ from best to worst
Apollo Justice
Trials & Tribulations
Justice for All
Phoenix Wright
Yup, that looks about right. I don't think anyone can argue there either. Don't even try.
Case 2 ~ from best to worst
Justice for All
Phoenix Wright
Apollo Justice
Trials & Tribulations
I like the second cases that directly involve the main cast, what can I say? I felt a bit bad for 2-2's killer as well, unlike the other villains. I also think T&T's second case was a bit TOO long and convoluted. Sometimes longer is not always better.
Case 3 ~ from best to worst
Apollo Justice
Trials & Tribulations
Phoenix Wright
Justice for All
Third cases were always filler cases until Apollo Justice. DS mechanics puts it over the top.
Case 4 ~ from best to worst
Justice for All
Phoenix Wright
Apollo Justice
Trials & Tribulations
2-4 rules all. It still stands as the best fourth case in terms of twists and suspense, sorry Von Karma.
Case 5 ~ from best to worst [spoiler-tag because not all the games got a "Case 5"]
T&T has a slight edge, total fan service and a good wrap-up for the trilogy. 1-5's no slouch, The surveillance video is still miles ahead of anything in Apollo Justice, sadly.
Also,
"Best Case Ever"...
Here's my list of the best-to-worst cases of the whole series
Case 1 ~ from best to worst
Apollo Justice
Trials & Tribulations
Justice for All
Phoenix Wright
Yup, that looks about right. I don't think anyone can argue there either. Don't even try.
Case 2 ~ from best to worst
Justice for All
Phoenix Wright
Apollo Justice
Trials & Tribulations
I like the second cases that directly involve the main cast, what can I say? I felt a bit bad for 2-2's killer as well, unlike the other villains. I also think T&T's second case was a bit TOO long and convoluted. Sometimes longer is not always better.
Case 3 ~ from best to worst
Apollo Justice
Trials & Tribulations
Phoenix Wright
Justice for All
Third cases were always filler cases until Apollo Justice. DS mechanics puts it over the top.
Skunk hair smooth operator > Fruity Chefs/Pervy old men > sweaty L33t speaker/Windbags > dumb lala land bitch
Case 4 ~ from best to worst
Justice for All
Phoenix Wright
Apollo Justice
Trials & Tribulations
2-4 rules all. It still stands as the best fourth case in terms of twists and suspense, sorry Von Karma.
Case 5 ~ from best to worst [spoiler-tag because not all the games got a "Case 5"]
Trials & Tribulations
Phoenix Wright
No "case 5" in Apollo Justice
No "case 5" in Justice for All
Phoenix Wright
No "case 5" in Apollo Justice
No "case 5" in Justice for All
T&T has a slight edge, total fan service and a good wrap-up for the trilogy. 1-5's no slouch, The surveillance video is still miles ahead of anything in Apollo Justice, sadly.
Also,
"Best Case Ever"...
Case 4 from Ace Attorney Phoenix Wright: Justice for All
But that doesn't make sense. Pretty much the whole game is about Phoenix, not Apollo. We learn almost nothing about him, his story hasn't even really started. In theory, that'd be okay. If Capcom wanted to finish Phoenix' story first, then fine. But you can't finish Phoenix' story without having at least Maya, Pearls and Edgeworth around. And I'm not sure, it will work in the future.Hcoregamer00 said:
Personally, I think it would make most sense to consider Apollo Justice a spin-off and continue both series - Phoenix Wright and Apollo Justice - in the future. Yes, it's called Ace Attorney but you know what I mean. Considering how popular Gyakuten Saiban is in Japan, that should be an option.
I put T&T's 2nd case on top because i just laughed too much at Luke Atmey.BorkBork said:
Also, i'm very sorry to put Phoenix Wright's Case 2 at the "worst", that was great.
And another thing, putting T&T's Case 4 at the "worst", again, killed me a little inside.
Let's call it "less good", not "worst", mmkay?
Every case, EVERY CASE in this series is good.
By the way, i was just reading the first posts in this thread now [:lol at spoilers/fake spoilers/who know if they are spoilers pics] and i was wondering if we will really get that Gyakuten Encyclopedia contained in the Gyakuten Saiban 4 Special Edition.
Hope so. your thoughts about it?
Hope so. your thoughts about it?
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