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[The Verge] Final Fantasy XVI has a medieval approach to diversity

Are you a diversity supporter?


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Kamina

Golden Boy
American “progressive” worldview being forced on other regions.
There are plenty of regions that do not have a very diverse population. Why should they forcefully depict media in a way that doesn’t accurately reflect their population?
Wokies seem to think the world circulates around their point of view alone and everything needs to adhere to their preferences. Not everything is made for them however.
 
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hemo memo

Gold Member
American “progressive” worldview being forced on other regions.
There are plenty of regions that do not have a very diverse population. Why should they forcefully depict media in a way that doesn’t accurately reflect their population?
Wokies seem to think the world circulates around their point of view alone and everything needs to adhere to their preferences. Not everything is made for them however.
Exactly. Different culture, different values etc.
 
Even the Wokegamer comments on Blake's article are ridiculing her pathetic attempt at boosting this 'boycott'. I expect the comments will be closed or deleted soon, that's their usual modus operandi.
So a few hours later, and they have indeed acted in predictably childish fashion - comments on the article are now closed and all the already posted comments deleted. They never fail to amuse me. :messenger_grinning:
 
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Mozza

Member

Nixing people of color in service to making a game ‘rooted in reality’ not only runs contrary to the game’s own goal of having broad appeal but also to the game’s own internal world-building.​


FFXVI_MediaKit_02.png


When Naoki Yoshida, producer of Final Fantasy XVI, was doing the first round of press tours to ramp up hype for the game last year, he gave an interview with IGN talking about the game’s apparent lack of diversity. When asked if players can expect characters of color in the game, Yoshida had this to say:


Essentially, Yoshida said that because they’re basing the world of Valisthea on their idea of what the European continent was like in the past, the cast for their totally made-up world has to be all white. The quote was a rare miss from a generally well-liked developer, and it naturally upset fans of color.

It’s easy to see where Yoshida’s sentiments in his IGN interview fall apart. I could trot out the standard response that gets used whenever a work of fantasy fails to include people of color in the name of “historical accuracy,” aka “blah blah blah, it doesn’t make sense that chocobos, Eikons, and magic are permitted but people of color is a step too far.”

Continue this gibberish:




1.0.jpg


Ash Parrish​

VIDEO GAMES REPORTER
Ash is a Video Games Reporter for The Verge with a focus on covering marginalized gamers and their communities, writing about the intersection of video games and sex, and finding a way to make the general video gaming public care about the Overwatch League.

https://www.theverge.com/2023/3/1/23620217/final-fantasy-xvi-diversity-naoki-yoshida-interview
No I think they have the right approach to diversity, we need to keep these diversity quotas and box ticking exercises out of video games. If a story benefits from certain inclusion then fine, but if studios are doing it to simply gain diversity points then no.

Having a players character customization more inclusive is of course welcome, and should be encouraged.

LOL on the survey question... not many real options there, can't be serious. ;)
 
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Doom85

Member
Thinking outside the box, it’s also possible this release of the game only covers just these events and other historical situations could follow later in DLC.

One thing that doesn’t sit well is portraying black as loud-mouthed, nonsensical ancillary characters that have nothing more to offer outside of comic relief. Characters like Sazh being taken as a joke instead of having as serious a demeanor as the protagonist Lightning is annoying. I’d like to see one that’s just as serious about their arc and purpose, not merely portrayed as a “jesting monkey” which is probably how they see black. If that’s the case, I’d rather them be absent than included.

You must have not gotten very far in XIII. Sazh is a dad in emotional turmoil trying to save his son, frequently points out when his teammates make bad decisions, and his use of humor is a pure coping mechanism, and unlike a few of his more hotheaded or idealistic teammates, he is more aware of how grim their current circumstances are. He’s actually the Straight Man of the team, and it‘s a disservice to his character to dismiss him as purely comic relief.
 
This has backfired massively on eurogamer.

Now everyone is noticing all their staff are made up of white men and women. They have two Asians on the staff, one is a contributor and the other is a moderator who probably doesn’t even get paid. They don’t have the excuse the other sister eurogamer sites do that there is a lack of black or Asian people in the UK.

That's one thing you'll regularly see from virtue-signaling far-left "progressive" types, particularly white American ones. They will, almost always, feel like they need to speak on behalf of groups of people, of whom they otherwise have no actual social cache or interactions with IRL. And often, it's done driven by some self-perceived "guilt" of past atrocities. Basically, a lot of them don't practice what they preach and some happen to be the biggest offenders in terms of actual racism/sexism/homophobia in the past.

However there is also an almost snotty and elitist tone to it, because they will only listen to minorities who say what they want to hear, and any who don't fall into line of believing the same politics and views as they do, will either get shut out, banned, harassed (often through gaslighting or in some cases, with racist/sexist/homophobic insults) or told they "aren't speaking in their best interests". Which is usually code for "You're too ignorant, and not intelligent enough to know what you want.".

Obviously, that's very belittling (and also wrong), but seems to be the way it's changed into over the years. It didn't start that way, mind you, and there are still good & valid aspects of progressivism. Unfortunately they are being suppressed and squeezed out of focus by the loudest extremists on that side who want you to be perfectly fine with ever-more-extreme viewpoints else you are a bigot and heathen. And, FWIW there has been a similar shift on the ultra-conservative/anti-woke side of things too, in the opposite direction, it's just happened slower and there isn't as much a tendency to push away dissenting viewpoints. Also in the ultra-conservative/anti-woke sense some (but not all) of it is reactionary to the increased extremes of popularized far-left extremist progressive talking points.

Also I'd say this attempt at kicking up nonexistent controversy over FF XVI has failed massively not just for Eurogamer, but ResetERA as well. You've had some key members over there constantly trying to keep this a talking point for the past few months, and they got a resounding answer to just how little the vast majority give a crap. And what probably really angers them, is that a lot of that vast majority are non-white gamers! Black, Asian, Latino, Arab etc. it doesn't matter; the vast majority of them who are fans of FF just want to play an awesome game. They don't need every game to meet some diversity quota to be worth their time. Ethnic/gender/sexuality diversity doesn't inherently make a game better (or worst), but trying to mandate it ahead of natural creative impetus can hurt quality just like ANY other agenda pushed ahead of natural creativity.
 
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Mozza

Member
That's one thing you'll regularly see from virtue-signaling far-left "progressive" types, particularly white American ones. They will, almost always, feel like they need to speak on behalf of groups of people, of whom they otherwise have no actual social cache or interactions with IRL. And often, it's done driven by some self-perceived "guilt" of past atrocities. Basically, a lot of them don't practice what they preach and some happen to be the biggest offenders in terms of actual racism/sexism/homophobia in the past.

However there is also an almost snotty and elitist tone to it, because they will only listen to minorities who say what they want to hear, and any who don't fall into line of believing the same politics and views as they do, will either get shut out, banned, harassed (often through gaslighting or in some cases, with racist/sexist/homophobic insults) or told they "aren't speaking in their best interests". Which is usually code for "You're too ignorant, and not intelligent enough to know what you want.".

Obviously, that's very belittling (and also wrong), but seems to be the way it's changed into over the years. It didn't start that way, mind you, and there are still good & valid aspects of progressivism. Unfortunately they are being suppressed and squeezed out of focus by the loudest extremists on that side who want you to be perfectly fine with ever-more-extreme viewpoints else you are a bigot and heathen. And, FWIW there has been a similar shift on the ultra-conservative/anti-woke side of things too, in the opposite direction, it's just happened slower and there isn't as much a tendency to push away dissenting viewpoints. Also in the ultra-conservative/anti-woke sense some (but not all) of it is reactionary to the increased extremes of popularized far-left extremist progressive talking points.

Also I'd say this attempt at kicking up nonexistent controversy over FF XVI has failed massively not just for Eurogamer, but ResetERA as well. You've had some key members over there constantly trying to keep this a talking point for the past few months, and they got a resounding answer to just how little the vast majority give a crap. And what probably really angers them, is that a lot of that vast majority are non-white gamers! Black, Asian, Latino, Arab etc. it doesn't matter; the vast majority of them who are fans of FF just want to play an awesome game. They don't need every game to meet some diversity quota to be worth their time. Ethnic/gender/sexuality diversity doesn't inherently make a game better (or worst), but trying to mandate it ahead of natural creative impetus can hurt quality just like ANY other agenda pushed ahead of natural creativity.
So true, it does not matter if a group are not upset of offended personally, as there is always people out there willing to be offended on their behalf. Basically if certain people are determined to be offended and upset by things, there is not an awful lot you do about it.
 
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NecrosaroIII

Ask me about my terrible takes on Star Trek characters
You must have not gotten very far in XIII. Sazh is a dad in emotional turmoil trying to save his son, frequently points out when his teammates make bad decisions, and his use of humor is a pure coping mechanism, and unlike a few of his more hotheaded or idealistic teammates, he is more aware of how grim their current circumstances are. He’s actually the Straight Man of the team, and it‘s a disservice to his character to dismiss him as purely comic relief.
Yeah, XIII has a lot of problems, but Sazh isn't one of them. I liked him a lot
 

UnNamed

Banned
And where do you expect the gender studies graduates gonna find jobs?

Completing the Gender Studies major gives you an in-depth awareness of the making and meaning of gender in various cultures, with practical knowledge that can be applied to many different career fields.
Can't wait to explore the meaning of gender in various cultures as... Afganistan and North Korea.
 
So true, it does not matte if a group are not upset of offended personally, as there is always people out there willing to be offended on their behalf. Basically if certain people are determined to be offended and upset by things, there is not an awful lot you do about it.

True, sadly. But I like to see people of groups meant to be supposedly offended, clap back, like Mexicans who told Twitter to shut up about Mario wearing a sombrero being offensive. That one was funny but also, again, shows the ridiculousness in finding Mario wearing an article of clothing supposedly offensive. Mario's almost the most inoffensive character in gaming 😂.
 

Myths

Member
Brother, not sure about you, but black people are the most fun people on Earth. I work in a school that's 95% black and I can make jokes with every one working there up to the head. Humor is part of black culture in general, it's not about being a clown or what you called it "jesting monkey". Try saying that to one and if he's in a good mood you would be ridiculed to oblivion.

You might think that's "stereotype" but it's ok, you find blacks usually flourish in music, comedy, and sports in general, doesn't mean that there aren't scientists, nerds, and other types like the ones with too much feelings.
Thank you for telling me, a black person. i would know.

You must have not gotten very far in XIII. Sazh is a dad in emotional turmoil trying to save his son, frequently points out when his teammates make bad decisions, and his use of humor is a pure coping mechanism, and unlike a few of his more hotheaded or idealistic teammates, he is more aware of how grim their current circumstances are. He’s actually the Straight Man of the team, and it‘s a disservice to his character to dismiss him as purely comic relief.
Uhh no, I‘ve beaten the game so I know exactly what I’m talking about. It doesn’t change that he’s primarily given the comic relief archetype. His arc doesn’t change what he’s being used as. It’s a matter of perspective of how people perceive the stereotypes/archetypes being filled.

I’m merely saying I don’t want us to be looked at as clowns or jests in the story (the “funny black guy nobody would actually take a serious opinion from/of). That’s it, there’s no further argument to be had.
 
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Kaleinc

Banned

Doom85

Member
Uhh no, I‘ve beaten the game so I know exactly what I’m talking about. It doesn’t change that he’s primarily given the comic relief archetype. His arc doesn’t change what he’s being used as. It’s a matter of perspective of how people perceive the stereotypes/archetypes being filled.

I’m merely saying I don’t want us to be looked at as clowns or jests in the story. That’s it, there’s no further argument to be had.

If someone only looks at the character at surface level and ignore his true nature and why he was putting on that false persona, yeah, that’s not on the game, that’s on that person. The game made it very clear what Sazh was truly like.

An act is just an act. Nobody with a base understanding of putting on a fake personality or such should have trouble understanding this. It’s like someone watching all of Batman Begins and going, “wow, that Bruce Wayne was just an obnoxious asshole who throws money around, why do fans like this guy?”, just completely misunderstanding what was an act versus who Bruce truly is.

Don‘t fault the developers and writers if there are people out there so up their ass in believing stereotypes define various groups of people that they judge a character entirely on initial surface level and ignore all further insight into said character including revealing that initial surface level was an act. It’s not on the writers of Final Fantasy XIII to go out of their way to tell people who buy into stereotypes to open their minds. I mean, they could do that, but it’s not really relevant to who Sazh truly is: a man desperate to save his son but knows how grim things are so he fights internally against sliding deep into cynicism, and all his ”jokes” are just his method of avoiding losing all hope. And he is clever enough to be aware of the true reality of their situation, unlike a few of the other teammates.

Anyone who sees all that and goes, ”man, this guy is just a total goofball!”, yeeeaaaah, I’m raising an eyebrow at that person, not the game. If you want to criticize people like that, sure, but Sazh himself clearly isn’t the problem here.
 

Danjin44

The nicest person on this forum
If someone only looks at the character at surface level and ignore his true nature and why he was putting on that false persona, yeah, that’s not on the game, that’s on that person. The game made it very clear what Sazh was truly like.

An act is just an act. Nobody with a base understanding of putting on a fake personality or such should have trouble understanding this. It’s like someone watching all of Batman Begins and going, “wow, that Bruce Wayne was just an obnoxious asshole who throws money around, why do fans like this guy?”, just completely misunderstanding what was an act versus who Bruce truly is.

Don‘t fault the developers and writers if there are people out there so up their ass in believing stereotypes define various groups of people that they judge a character entirely on initial surface level and ignore all further insight into said character including revealing that initial surface level was an act. It’s not on the writers of Final Fantasy XIII to go out of their way to tell people who buy into stereotypes to open their minds. I mean, they could do that, but it’s not really relevant to who Sazh truly is: a man desperate to save his son but knows how grim things are so he fights internally against sliding deep into cynicism, and all his ”jokes” are just his method of avoiding losing all hope. And he is clever enough to be aware of the true reality of their situation, unlike a few of the other teammates.

Anyone who sees all that and goes, ”man, this guy is just a total goofball!”, yeeeaaaah, I’m raising an eyebrow at that person, not the game. If you want to criticize people like that, sure, but Sazh himself clearly isn’t the problem here.
It was same case of some people completely misunderstanding Kanji from Persona 4 and thought he was “gay” or thought Naoto wants to be “trans”. Some people just look at the character on surface level and agree with you that problem mostly is with those people rather than the writers.
 
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Doom85

Member
It was same case of some people completely misunderstanding Kanji from Persona 4 and thought he was “gay” or thought Naoto wants to be “trans”. Some people just look at the character on surface level and agree with you that problem mostly is with those people rather than the writers.

Well, just to be honest with you, I do personally think Kanji is bisexual given it’s suggested he’s attracted to Naoto even when he thought she was a boy. But I never saw it as the main focus of his character arc, to me it felt like it was more about him overcoming any shame of enjoying activities that were not seen as “traditionally masculine” like sewing and such, and that sort of arc would work for a guy whether he be straight, gay, or bi.

But I don’t argue with people about it, if someone thinks Kanji is straight or gay and is equally respectful about differing opinions on it, that’s fine. Unlike the MC or the rest of the main cast, he’s left more ambiguous about his orientation but it‘s not really a major focus of his character regardless.

Naoto is definitely not trans. She actually is a progressive character in that she is fighting against sexism from some of the traditional conservative aspects of general Japanese society that would make her getting a job as a professional detective difficult, so she initially thinks she has to make herself ”like a man” to overcome this obstacle, but ultimately realizes she can become a detective without being forced to change her appearance and such. The game doesn’t even shame her for dressing in traditionally male clothes, rather by the end she clearly enjoys dressing in her usual clothes or more traditionally female clothes. None of this has anything to do with transgender, especially as there are people IRL of either gender who enjoy occasionally dressing in clothing of the opposite gender but are not trans or even LGBT sometimes.

There are some positive portrayals of trans and non-binary characters in anime and manga so for those who do wish to look for them they can be found. But just because Persona 4 doesn‘t feature one doesn’t mean the game is anti-trans obviously.
 
Well, just to be honest with you, I do personally think Kanji is bisexual given it’s suggested he’s attracted to Naoto even when he thought she was a boy. But I never saw it as the main focus of his character arc, to me it felt like it was more about him overcoming any shame of enjoying activities that were not seen as “traditionally masculine” like sewing and such, and that sort of arc would work for a guy whether he be straight, gay, or bi.

But I don’t argue with people about it, if someone thinks Kanji is straight or gay and is equally respectful about differing opinions on it, that’s fine. Unlike the MC or the rest of the main cast, he’s left more ambiguous about his orientation but it‘s not really a major focus of his character regardless.

Naoto is definitely not trans. She actually is a progressive character in that she is fighting against sexism from some of the traditional conservative aspects of general Japanese society that would make her getting a job as a professional detective difficult, so she initially thinks she has to make herself ”like a man” to overcome this obstacle, but ultimately realizes she can become a detective without being forced to change her appearance and such. The game doesn’t even shame her for dressing in traditionally male clothes, rather by the end she clearly enjoys dressing in her usual clothes or more traditionally female clothes. None of this has anything to do with transgender, especially as there are people IRL of either gender who enjoy occasionally dressing in clothing of the opposite gender but are not trans or even LGBT sometimes.

There are some positive portrayals of trans and non-binary characters in anime and manga so for those who do wish to look for them they can be found. But just because Persona 4 doesn‘t feature one doesn’t mean the game is anti-trans obviously.

I'm a huge Kanji/Naoto Shipper

Always will be in my Top 10 OTP
 

mhirano

Member
Final Fantasy has a f*cking chicken that can be ridden as a horse.
How hard is to put some black and brown guys?
If it was a reality grounded game than that would be an excuse.
 
It’s a good ship, though I will always want to pair myself (in the MC’s shoes) with Naoto as she is my favorite though Chie is a close second. Yes, I like my tomboys (so obviously Makoto was my favorite in 5).
I do too lol

Everytime I play the game, I'm always tempted to romance Naoto since Tomboys are one of my main types. But I'm like nope she's for Kanji lol
 
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Doom85

Member
Final Fantasy has a f*cking chicken that can be ridden as a horse.
How hard is to put some black and brown guys?
If it was a reality grounded game then that would be an excuse.

Bruh, they only released VII Remake three years ago, which not only had Barret, of course, but even some NPCs that were black or brown.

My favorite being this character:





When I first saw her near Aerith’s house, I was like, “eh, not big on her outfit”, then this scene happened, and I was all:

James Corden Flirting GIF by The Late Late Show with James Corden


While I don’t personally buy that medieval Europe was 100% white people given some contradicting evidence, but I also don’t need Yoshi-P and his team to be history buffs. The whole cast being white wasn’t out of malicious intent or anything, they just believe Europe was like that at the time. At no point did Yoshi-P say, “and all FFs from now on will be like this!” It’s one game, relax.

Hell, isekai (someone from our world being transported into a fantasy world) is a popular genre in anime, and often feature dark skinned or very tan women among the cast. Yes, Japan‘s media does focus more on Asian and to a lesser extent white people, but there are some noteworthy black and brown characters in their games, manga, and anime, and are generally treated with respect.

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BbMajor7th

Member
Assassin's Creed Origins: Western devs create a game featuring exclusively Middle-Eastern, North African and Mediterranean people.

Ghost of Tsushima: Western devs create a game featuring exclusively East-Asian and Pacific people.

Final Fantasy XVI: Eastern devs create a game featuring exclusively White European people.

That's diversity - that's great. If anyone argued that we needed a few Danes or Nords in Egypt to balance things out or a few more Indians in Tsushima, I'd think they were being ridiculous. Diversity means variety across a spectrum, not everything being the same repeated mix across everything.
 
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Ivory Samoan

Gold Member
As a man of color, who gives a fuck if YoshiP and crew make the starring cast mostly one color...jesus.

Interesting point: The Verge bird who wrote that up just said FFXVI is a 'peak gaming experience' on the tweeter, so if it can impress her...
 

Thirty7ven

Banned
Assassin's Creed Origins: Western devs create a game featuring exclusively Middle-Eastern, North African and Mediterranean people.

Ghost of Tsushima: Western devs create a game featuring exclusively East-Asian and Pacific people.

Final Fantasy XVI: Eastern devs create a game featuring exclusively White European people.

That's diversity - that's great. If anyone argued that we needed a few Danes or Nords in Egypt to balance things out or a few more Indians in Tsushima, I'd think they were being ridiculous. Diversity means variety across a spectrum, not everything being the same repeated mix across everything.

Yeah but see FF is FANTASY and GOT and AC are like totally not, they are TRUE STORIES
 

DeepEnigma

Gold Member
As a man of color, who gives a fuck if YoshiP and crew make the starring cast mostly one color...jesus.

Interesting point: The Verge bird who wrote that up just said FFXVI is a 'peak gaming experience' on the tweeter, so if it can impress her...
It's almost as if they live in a duality. I.E. crazy as hell.
 

Boss Man

Member
I’m sick of the lack of native Canadian Eskimo representation in Japanese video games set in Medieval Europe. Numerous government studies have shown that Europeans knew about Eskimos and some may have even been present at court.
 
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Dr. Claus

Vincit qui se vincit
I'm very dissapointed by yoshida with that response. What a bad excuse. It's 2023, it isn't that hard. Really thinking first of not buying the game but the game was fun...

I am going to assume that this is a satirical joke post. Otherwise I would strongly urge you to get your tubes tied or balls snipped. Prevent your genes from continuing for the betterment of the human race.
 

Danjin44

The nicest person on this forum
I'm very dissapointed by yoshida with that response. What a bad excuse. It's 2023, it isn't that hard. Really thinking first of not buying the game but the game was fun...
Tell me what “response“ would be acceptable? Can they simply say it’s their choice to design their own game however they want? Because the way I see it no matter what they say people like you still not gonna like it.
 

GymWolf

Member
So true, it does not matter if a group are not upset of offended personally, as there is always people out there willing to be offended on their behalf. Basically if certain people are determined to be offended and upset by things, there is not an awful lot you do about it.
We send monkeys and dogs into space in the past, i'm just brainstorming here...
 
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It's always the same when it comes to white people in games. Nobody played Ghost of Tshushima and thought this game isn't diverse, where are all the aborigines. It may be a fantasy game but they made the conscious effort to base the game on Medieval Europe and it was pretty much 99% white outside of Islamic Spain. Guess what, Wakanda is also a fictional place and the people living there are all........blue.
 
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