Support NeoGAF

[Kyou]

This is an alternate universe. In his world, Carl is actually batman. As was that zombie that silently snuck up on Dale, in a wide open field, no less.

Dale's not exactly the most observant fellow.

Remember when he missed the mile long herd of zombies coming down a perfectly straight road?

 

[C.Dark.DN]

Is there any character that won't turn to shit in this series!? Now I even hate the freaking kid!

Does stupidity increase exponentially when there's a zombie apocalypse!? Damn it to hell!

And of course I wouldn't have sided with Dale, you can't kill someone based on fears. On uncertainties. These guys left him to die and he certainly didn't expressed any desire to go back to them.

The kid has always sucked. Bad casting.

 

[Brian Fellows]

That was awesome. Good riddance you old crybaby.

Carl is now my favorite character.

 

[plainr_]

I've never been more annoyed by an onscreen character before.

Carl needs to die already. Possibly before this season ends.

 

[ismk]

I'm as cheesed off of Dale dying as anyone else but people seriously need to lighten up. It's a show, relax. And anyway, if enough people complain about Carl, maybe AMC will break and kill him out haha.

 

[BY2K]

The kid has always sucked. Bad casting.

He does look like Jake Lloyd. Young Jake Lloyd, I mean. (Dear God, what happened to him?)

 

[RatskyWatsky]

It's weird. I didn't really feel any emotion when Dale was killed. The writers have done such a horrid job with his characterization, that I just didn't care. I mean, I guess it's sad? He was sort of the father of the group, and the moral center or something?

I thought Greg Nicotero's direction was quite good. Certainly one of the better directed episodes this season. Loved all the outside shots of trees blowing in the wind behind the characters, etc.

Go inside this tent less than 2 feet away so you can't hear us.

Haha yeah, I thought the same thing. And when Lori told Carl to "go inside and lock the door", she was probably referring to the tent. lol

Wasn't the actor who played Dale Darabont's BFF? Did he leave/they get rid of him because of Big D leaving?

I read a Walking Dead blind item a few months ago that said

Spoiler

just that. It said that an actor/actress wanted to leave the show because they were friends with Darabont and didn't want to be on the show anymore. But then at the last second they changed their mind and wanted to stay on the show but by then it was too late. I knew that Laurie Holden was friends with Darabont, so all season long I thought that Andrea would be killed. I felt bad for reading a blind item, as I don't like spoilers, but now I'm happy to be proven wrong.

EDIT: Looks like I'm not the only one.

Watch Daryl die later because he expected to have that gun in his motorcycle sidebag. Fuck you, Carl.

Daryl is too cool to be affected by Carl's dumb hijinks!

Perhaps it will be someone other than Daryl that dies because of Carl. Picture a scenario where the group is surrounded by zombies and Daryl tells someone that he has an extra gun in his sidebag. They make their way to his motorcycle only to find it empty. Cue zombie.

Yeah, that was pretty cheap. I'm not against him dying, but can I get a serious answer why a zombie would have left a still living cow, with a TON of meat on it, a walking Brasa Steakhouse for a zombie, with the meal only just started? No way in hell, and that's using the show's logic.

The super-smart "I'll set a trap for this old guy instead of eating this still-living meal" ninja stealth zombie, said zombie being strong and fast enough to, by itself, take down and eat a huge cow despite not having the strength to remove itself from a muddy riverbank, nobody being able to fire their guns at the zombie from more than 8 feet away for no reason at all. And come to think of it, why didn't anyone look around for other zombies? Did they know there was only one? How did they know that?

All good points. The zombie ignoring the juicy cow and going after Dale was especially bizarre. Think back to the pilot where Rick's horse is being devoured by the zombies: the zombies completely ignore Rick and go right for the horse. The scene with Dale is, like, the opposite of that. There's just no logic being demonstrated on this show.

I'm still trying to decide if I should make time for True Blood. I've heard it's worthless after season 1.

It's campy, cheesy fun. The writing can be frustrating at times, but it's still a really entertaining show with totally hawt actors.

 

[a secret-boss]

oh hay guyz, how come Shane is gone from the credits? lol

didn't see Dale's end coming. Dale should have asked T-Dawg to back him up. T-Dawg is the wildcard

 

[MisterNugNug]

Chiming in again, so with Dale gone; I'm sad for one reason. There's a storyline in the comic series which involves Dale and

Spoiler

tainted meat

(not spoilery and the two words, need context but just a heads up) that I would have loved to see come to light on the show. And seeing everyone's reaction to it. What a shame. Hopefully they give it to another character.

 

[TheSeks]

An elderly Adolf Hitler, leaving Argentina for a vacation in Florida when the infection hit, shows up at the farm.

"We, CANNOT, condemn. This man. For something 70 YEARS ago." says Rick.

Shane bobs his head and talks to Rick without looking at him, and then Carl enters the scene with a bloody knife and a skull tattoo on his face.

"Hey, go to your mother," Shrick orders Carl.

:lol Just in pure WTF you win post of the night.

But seriously: Killing Dale off after he had a change of heart (and given the change of heart was before this death, I'm sure the writers could've 180'd on it since I doubt the writing was "in the can" already? Insider confirm/deny this?) after Frank's departure was stupid. Some people may have hated him for being "preachy/do nothing but whine" but he was the moral center of the group. As shown by him finally getting through to Andrea's "yes man"-ism on Shane's logic.

 

[Foxy Fox 39]

This is why I love the show! There is nuance to a lot of what happens and we are kind of left to interpret what is all means or where it goes. Carl is becoming a detriment to the group because he wants to fit in and not be a "kid." Unfortunately, he is trying to grow up too fast and "prove" himself to everyone, especially Rick and Shane. He wears his father's hat with prideful arrogance, but it almost always costs him in some fashion whether he is yelled at or does something stupid. However, that seems to motivate him even more; it almost always leads to his actions costing something... his effort to prove to himself that he isn't a kid (to himself) anymore ended up almost getting him killed and ended up leading a zombie back to the farm and getting Dale killed. His realization is what sold the episode for me.

Kid was afraid of being yelled at by his Dad he looks up too for fucking up again, but in his silence, it ended up leading to Dale's death. I think he knows he fucked up bad at the end when he saw the zombie.

Yup. Exactly what I thought. He didn't want to say anything because he left darryls gun and he wasn't supposed to be giving zombies a private show anyway. He messed up twice and it cost a man his life.

 

[EleventhDoctor]

It makes zero sense that these people would be strolling around by themselves on a farm in the dark with zombies lurking about. That's my biggest issue with the show.

 

[Jubs]

Dale's not exactly the most observant fellow.

Remember when he missed the mile long herd of zombies coming down a perfectly straight road?

He was observant enough to see and hear a dying cow lying on its side in the darkness, amongst the grass. Plus, we saw a pretty wide angle of Dale walking in this field. I saw nothing. Zombie snuck up on him like a ninja. Didn't even make that "grawwhhhhh" sound zombies usually make.

It's piss poor writing, either way.

 

[-Pyromaniac-]

For people who have read the comic:
How closely does the show follow it?

Are they basically in entirely different worlds by now?

umm they said they'll follow the comic on the big points, and so far they've deviated one some things, but overall nothing too bad. But next episode will show that they are still sticking to it for the big stuff (rick slowly becoming THE rick muthafuggin grimes). And glorious it will be. Won't discuss it further because there is the spoiler thread for that, but strap yourselves in and FEEEEEL the Gs.

I edited some stuff out of this post in case someone is interested in reading the comics but hasn't.

 

[TheSeks]

It makes zero sense that these people would be strolling around by themselves on a farm in the dark with zombies lurking about. That's my biggest issue with the show.

It doesn't make sense that recoil on a gun wouldn't be there when you stuck said gun in a zombies head and pulled the trigger one handed. Or a zombie going after a human after killing a stray cow and feeding on some of the guts.

Or hell, said human not firing a hip shot in an attempting to defend himself before having to hand-to-hand (and possibly losing) the zombie fight a la Biohazard 2's Leon R1+Up Shotgun spray animation. :|

 

[Anton668]

@simonpegg - My action figure could totally take Nicotero's. Mine's 12" and talks.

 

[TheSeks]

@simonpegg - My action figure could totally take Nicotero's. Mine's 12" and talks.

Huh?

 

[EmCeeGramr]

It makes zero sense that these people would be strolling around by themselves on a farm in the dark with zombies lurking about. That's my biggest issue with the show.

The noisy and smelly human and farm animal habitat on open terrain doesn't attract zombies who instinctively follow noise and smells. Duh.

 

[Foxy Fox 39]

umm they said they'll follow the comic on the big points, and so far they've deviated one some things, but overall nothing too bad. Sophia dying was a bigger deviation than Dale dying this early. But next episode will show that they are still sticking to it for the big stuff. And glorious it will be. Won't discuss it further because there is the spoiler thread for that, but strap yourselves in and FEEEEEL the Gs.

Max Power was a wise man.

 

[-Pyromaniac-]

Anyone still in awe over how good the zombies are on this show. Definitely the best I've ever seen. They all look so...real.

 

[Anton668]

Huh?

that was in reference to The Talking Dead

 

[-Pyromaniac-]

It makes zero sense that these people would be strolling around by themselves on a farm in the dark with zombies lurking about. That's my biggest issue with the show.

to be fair, dale wasn't in the "clear thinking" state of mind. Dude was pretty pissed.

 

[HadesGigas]

It makes zero sense that these people would be strolling around by themselves on a farm in the dark with zombies lurking about. That's my biggest issue with the show.

Dale had just basically lost faith in humanity and was walking away on his own. Pretty much suicidal.

And normally there aren't zombies lurking about ON the farm, but they mentioned earlier in the episode that some of the cattle took down some barbed wire and were Hershel spent all day trying to wrangle them up. So that'd probably be what attracted the zombie closer to the farm after Carl got him moving.

 

[Persona7]

I thought that Dale was investigating the cow that was groaning in agony?

At least it seemed that way to me.

 

[-Pyromaniac-]

Dale had just basically lost faith in humanity and was walking away on his own. Pretty much suicidal.

And normally there aren't zombies lurking about ON the farm, but they mentioned earlier in the episode that some of the cattle took down some barbed wire and were Hershel spent all day trying to wrangle them up. So that'd probably be what attracted the zombie closer to the farm after Carl got him moving.

yeah that hershel bit was easy to miss, but explains some things.

 

[Night_Trekker]

They have a semblance of society here, no matter how much bad writing tries to make a reasoned group decision thought out over several days into a crazy murderous Shane-mob. Dale threw a hissy fit because it wasn't the society he was used to. He could not accept the possibility that this was a valid course of action, even though the others actually listened to him and tried to see it from his point of view.

First off, everyone in the group agreed with what you're saying--including Rick--except for Dale and Andrea, the latter of which didn't care enough to try and stop the execution. In the end, Rick didn't go through with the execution because he had an emotional reaction to the way Carl was behaving. The group did not then, as a unit, adopt Dale's viewpoint and turn to the camera to moralize to the audience. They remained silent, and we don't know what any of them thought about what happened.

Dale was trying to keep his group from turning into Randall's group: people with so little regard for "the other" that they abandon morality--consideration of each situation as perhaps more than black or white--for an existence of animal instinct. Even if the planned execution of the prisoner was more symbolic than it was a literal turn down a slippery slope to savagery, Dale was right. There is no way to pinpoint what exactly would turn them all into inhuman monsters, but executing someone who might not pose a threat because it's easier and safer is a pretty damn good guess.

(And come on, Dale was the least ego-driven character in the group, by far. Maybe the delivery of his argument was shrill and annoying, but that's got nothing to do with the content of that argument.)

In contrast, Shane is murderous. He tries to paint his behavior and way of doing things as motivated by rational thought andconcern for the group's survival, but he's just making excuses for himself to be aggressive. (Like letting the zombies out of the barn so he can be a real mayun with gunz blazin' and expose everyone else to danger in the process.) He's a literal narcissist: he can't handle rejection, he can't stand not being top dog, he views other people as props to manipulate for his own benefit (see: Otis), and he gets angry and violent when people second-guess his "obviously correct" suggestions. He is not simply a reasoned man trying to survive. Once again, Dale was right: Shane belongs in the show's world as it has become because Shane is just a killer looking for excuses to kill.

"Civilized" societies have done far worse than execute attempted murderers in life-or-death survival situations.

Until they tortured him and gave him a real reason to run back to the group that abandoned him for dead, Randall was not a definite threat. Living in a world that has an undeniable "survival of the fittest" reality underlying everything does not make every single situation into a"life or death and oh my god attack with deadly force before thinking" situation. (Example: The real world.)

Rick and the rest of the group want some semblance of society back. How do they get from where they are to where they want to be by using a bullet to "solve" all possibly dangerous situations while ignoring their own morality? They don't. Like one of the characters said in an earlier episode, the world had always been a dangerous place with the only assurance being death. What their world has become doesn't mean they have to, or should, compromise the values that make them more than mere frightened animals. (Again, I urge anyone who hasn't to read or see the movie version of The Road, which does a much better job exploring these themes than TWD does.)

ALL OF THAT SAID: this show has clear examples of poor writing, and I would never argue against that. Heh.

tl;dr version:

1) AMC fires Frank Darabont
2) Jeffrey DeMunn (Dale) wants off the show cause his close friend was fired
3) Then he changes his mind, wants to stay
4) Writers kill him anyway

Ugh... very disappointing :/ I wonder sometimes if AMC has any idea what the fuck they're doing. They seem to be thriving despite their best efforts to fail.

 

[BY2K]

I think I'll track down the comics.

Is it done or is it still an on-going series?

 

[RatskyWatsky]

I think I'll track down the comics.

Is it done or is it still an on-going series?

I haven't read them yet, but I know that it's still on-going.

 

[a secret-boss]

I think I'll track down the comics.

Is it done or is it still an on-going series?

still going. there's a a thick compendium
compendium 1 1088 pages

 

[MeBecomingI]

Dale had just basically lost faith in humanity and was walking away on his own. Pretty much suicidal.

And normally there aren't zombies lurking about ON the farm, but they mentioned earlier in the episode that some of the cattle took down some barbed wire and were Hershel spent all day trying to wrangle them up. So that'd probably be what attracted the zombie closer to the farm after Carl got him moving.

Great point.

Also, the cow was crying pretty loudly and he seemed fairly shocked with what he was seeing. A mix of an emotionally wrecked state of mind, loud crying from a dying cow, a complete fixation and confusion on the fact that there is a cow with its intestines everywhere and darkness might not make you terribly observant to something around you. He saw the cow and readied the gun, but too little to late. Additionally, I remember Dale looking down a lot as he was walking through the field. I could be completely wrong, but I don't recall Dale looking up or around him for much of his trek. It is dark and the zombie wasn't exactly wearing bright colours. He really wasn't actively looking for anything because his head wasn't in it. He could've easily missed the zombie. Not hard to put things together. Bad writing is an easy out for people, it seems.

 

[-Pyromaniac-]

I think I'll track down the comics.

Is it done or is it still an on-going series?

stillll going, latest issue a buncha days ago I believe. Worth reading. It's a nice contrast. Also a relatively fast read if you get the compendium.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

I'm on a tablet so I can't type out a very long detailed response, but let me just say Dale was being FAR more black and white about the situation, and employing a really bad slippery slope fallacy.

That, and the gap between human society and animals is being hugely underestimated here, with an obvious bias towards 20th century Western standards that are fairly unique without making the previous 10,000 years "animalistic."

 

[Jonm1010]

This show is so goddamn dumb. I love it so much. Dale bitching about not wanting to live in world of survival of the fittest. Wtf, that's like the number one rule of life on Earth. What an idiot.

Frankly I understood the argument he was making.

That executing a man for suspicions of crimes the man may never commit - and in such haste, makes them in a way as bad as those people they are scared of.

I even agree with it. Problem was the writing is so poor and they took such a stupid angle on it that it came off corny and melodramatic.





.............Also, my biggest pet peeve was Angela being written as a dumb fuck for 50 minutes of this episode. Who apparently completely forgot about the concepts of justice, mores, norms and societal laws elevating and checking our immoral behavior despite being a fucking civil lawyer? It just irks me how stupid they write these characters at times. It's like the writers deliberately watch old horror movies and are determined to role every eye rolling cliche into this series.

I'm honestly starting to agree with the writer of that article damning serial television when he stated he thinks that this shows staff is unable to execute this format properly.

 

[PhoenixDark]

god fucking dammit. FUCK

they killed me ninja Dale

 

[Caramello]

I'm loving this show, just thought I'd add some appreciation to this thread

 

[Kyou]

He was observant enough to see and hear a dying cow lying on its side in the darkness, amongst the grass. Plus, we saw a pretty wide angle of Dale walking in this field. I saw nothing. Zombie snuck up on him like a ninja. Didn't even make that "grawwhhhhh" sound zombies usually make.

It's piss poor writing, either way.

What if, and bear with me here, the guy actually was a ninja pre-zombification and his honed ninja skills just kicked in.

We need more back story on this zombie before we condemn anyone

 

[a secret-boss]

embrace those Dale gifs

 

[Angry Puppy]

I like that the are deviating from the comic. It makes it more entertaining for me, as a comic-reader, since I won't know what's going to happen next too.

however the writing, pacing and some characters are horrendous.

 

[MeBecomingI]

I'm loving this show, just thought I'd add some appreciation to this thread

Always nice to see a fellow show lover!

 

[TheSeks]

the writing, pacing and some characters are horrendous.

Gotta agree with you on the writing. It's George Lucas level. Something reddit doesn't want to admit since they'll downvote you to oblivion on the walking dead subreddit for laying the truth bomb about this. :/

Also since the show "jumped the shark" today, they might as well go with my "Daryl 24/7" spin-off that I've been wanting since the end of season 1. Do it AMC/whoever owns Walking Dead and step your writing level up. I want 60 minutes of Daryl killing zombies stealthy and killing squirrels in the process. Hell, he doesn't even need to talk, just kill shit!

 

[Phonomezer]

Half-way through, haven't read any impressions, I want that stupid little shit to die.

 

[LQX]

When I did that character bio to see who you were close to being, I ended up being Dale. Fuck. I would have rather the kid died. Little shit.

 

[Derwind]

OMG!

Spoiler

Okay all I kept thinking through the scene where Rick's son wandered off alone into the woods with a stolen gun was.. "There's something wrong with this kid" and "This kid has serious issue's"...

Honestly I felt for Dale in this episode. He was the last source of reason and humanity...

Would this be considered tragic irony? On the night of the kids execution, Dale dies instead.

One of the best episodes I think I've seen in this show.

 

[bjork]

What if, and bear with me here, the guy actually was a ninja pre-zombification and his honed ninja skills just kicked in.

We need more back story on this zombie before we condemn anyone

Don't spoil season 3, what if they come across a dojo?

 

[Cosmic Dreams]

But wait...

Randall's group left him in the beginning (as in, they didn't give a shit that he got stuck) , and yet he supposedly could be going back to them to tell them Rick's group hurt him?

Uh

 

[LyleLanley]

But wait...

Randall's group left him in the beginning (as in, they didn't give a shit that he got stuck) , and yet he supposedly could be going back to them to tell them Rick's group hurt him?

Uh

At least his group wasn't actively trying to kill him.

 

[Cosmic Dreams]

Good point. This show. lol

 

[bsb]

I actually kind of liked the episode until the end. But... man. How was the zombie able to rip open Dale's stomach with his bare hands? Not to get all "When Itchy used Scratchy's ribcage as a Xylphone..." or anything but just a little while ago said zombie struggled to lift his leg out of some mud. :/

And in the past we've seen that they can be restrained and controlled by Hershel and his family of all people, so they never struck me as having much in the way of super strength.

Annnnnnnnnnd we just established that this particular zombie absolutely loses his shit with the hissing and hollering when he sees a potential meal, i.e. he is not especially stealthy. Oh well. At least Dale got to make one last good Daleface. Good night, sweet prince.

 

[bjork]

Maybe he got stronger after eating some of the cow? I never try to figure out the plot holes because there are too many. I just watch and wait for everyone to be eaten.

 

[videogames]

I actually kind of liked the episode until the end. But... man. How was the zombie able to rip open Dale's stomach with his bare hands? Not to get all "When Itchy used Scratchy's ribcage as a Xylphone..." or anything but just a little while ago said zombie struggled to lift his leg out of some mud. :/

And in the past we've seen that they can be restrained and controlled by Hershel and his family of all people, so they never struck me as having much in the way of super strength.

Annnnnnnnnnd we just established that this particular zombie absolutely loses his shit with the hissing and hollering when he sees a potential meal, i.e. he is not especially stealthy. Oh well. At least Dale got to make one last good Daleface. Good night, sweet prince.

Someone will try to respond to this seriously instead of just accepting the fact that the show is hilariously bad.