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Titan submarine for Titanic tourism - Nightmare fuel

Mr Reasonable

Mr Reasonable

Completely Unreasonable
Mobilemofo said:
Stockton rush has alot to answer for. His arrogance at "innovation" over safety is unbelievable. Sub wasn't even certified, which I know is optional but still ..paid no attention to previous warnings about his sub, thought he knew better. I hope oceangate are sued, eventually
Click to expand...
Difficult to see how Oceangate continue, even if they aren't sued, nobody's trusting them, even if they rebrand. I assume they fold the company as soon as possible.
 
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Mr Reasonable

Mr Reasonable

Completely Unreasonable
Toots

Toots

Gold Member
Winter John said:
Still can't believe none of them took water wings. If they'd had water wings they could've just floated to the top.
Click to expand...
lOTIX9n.jpg

I present to you the Oceangate 2.0 🍾🚢
I even put spanners arms in case they have to change a tire mid-trip.
 
jonnyp

jonnyp

Member
nkarafo said:
I still don't get what's the point of changing the materials in the first place?

The guy brags about breaking the rules and being innovative... But why? The point of this whole thing is to be tough enough to withstand pressure. The materials all other proper submersibles use up to this point work. So why change it? Is it cheaper? Did he think it's even stronger his way? He never explained this.

I also don't understand the design. I saw a few construction videos and pictures of a some submersibles and one thing they seem to share is a spherical main chamber (regardless how the outer shape looks). It's a sphere because this way pressure is applied evenly around it. They even try to make it as perfectly spherical as possible, according to the video i saw, for perfectly evenly applied pressure:

UetzSphere_296513_296573.jpg
subbbbb.jpg


main-qimg-541fe9a76c22136f73c444ff67124042-lq
41586_2012_Article_BF489194a_Figb_HTML.jpg


But the Oceangate sub clearly used a cylinder shaped main chamber? Dunno, maybe that's not an issue, i'm not an engineer expert, but if i was going to put myself into this situation, a sphere would make me feel better. It just feels right.
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So that he could bring more people at once for 250k per pax at the lowest possible expense to his company. Probably also for fame, for clout. He was a complete idiot. And yes, engineers can be complete idiots too.
 
StreetsofBeige

StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
nkarafo said:
I still don't get what's the point of changing the materials in the first place?

The guy brags about breaking the rules and being innovative... But why? The point of this whole thing is to be tough enough to withstand pressure. The materials all other proper submersibles use up to this point work. So why change it? Is it cheaper? Did he think it's even stronger his way? He never explained this.

I also don't understand the design. I saw a few construction videos and pictures of a some submersibles and one thing they seem to share is a spherical main chamber (regardless how the outer shape looks). It's a sphere because this way pressure is applied evenly around it. They even try to make it as perfectly spherical as possible, according to the video i saw, for perfectly evenly applied pressure:

UetzSphere_296513_296573.jpg
subbbbb.jpg


main-qimg-541fe9a76c22136f73c444ff67124042-lq
41586_2012_Article_BF489194a_Figb_HTML.jpg


But the Oceangate sub clearly used a cylinder shaped main chamber? Dunno, maybe that's not an issue, i'm not an engineer expert, but if i was going to put myself into this situation, a sphere would make me feel better. It just feels right.
Click to expand...
Some people are rebels and always got to do things differently. It's no different than the office guidebook saying dress business casual. There will always be someone every year who walks in with shorts and sandals. And they'll keep doing it until someone says change into pants and no open toe shoes.

At least in situations like that it's free and involves no safety issue.

Oceangate dude was charging people $250,000 for his wild west deep diver. You'd think in modern day there's enough science to build something rock solid. And there is. But this guy did his own thing and seemingly kept reusing the ship over and over again even though all these articles say the integrity of the ship degrades every time it's used until it gets to explosion time (not something the average person will think about). But for someone building and servicing it, you'd think they'd take that into consideration for each new dive.
 
Happosai

Happosai

Hold onto your panties
StreetsofBeige said:
Some people are rebels and always got to do things differently. It's no different than the office guidebook saying dress business casual. There will always be someone every year who walks in with shorts and sandals. And they'll keep doing it until someone says change into pants and no open toe shoes.

At least in situations like that it's free and involves no safety issue.

Oceangate dude was charging people $250,000 for his wild west deep diver. You'd think in modern day there's enough science to build something rock solid. And there is. But this guy did his own thing and seemingly kept reusing the ship over and over again even though all these articles say the integrity of the ship degrades every time it's used until it gets to explosion time (not something the average person will think about). But for someone building and servicing it, you'd think they'd take that into consideration for each new dive.
Click to expand...
Never sure if this was a staged video or not (funny regardless) but the way he snaps the wax recording cylinder makes me think of how carbon fiber handles under outward extreme pressure.



It really was wild west thinking but there were other material options out there which could have worked. I'm sure 'Stockton Rush (sounds like a pen name as I have a CEO who changed his name to something like this)' was presented with more suitable materials for the hull of the sub. Regardless too of how many excuses he came up with basically mocking 'regulations'; this ultimately was a cop out for him to justify himself using the absolute cheapest materials. I'm sure the conversation about titanium was presented to him numerous times and what we'll eventually know once this all gets a proper audit is he likely declined those materials because they're expensive. It appalls me that they list him as an engineer but the risks he took were all for the sake of not investing into the sub. News will get out once Ocean Gate employees are either left unemployed or quit.

Until that time, again watch shaky hands there snapping that wax cylinder...so for those trying to "determine the exact cause" of the sub imploding. It was that cheap, outdated carbon fiber.
 
StreetsofBeige

StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
Happosai said:
Never sure if this was a staged video or not (funny regardless) but the way he snaps the wax recording cylinder makes me think of how carbon fiber handles under outward extreme pressure.



It really was wild west thinking but there were other material options out there which could have worked. I'm sure 'Stockton Rush (sounds like a pen name as I have a CEO who changed his name to something like this)' was presented with more suitable materials for the hull of the sub. Regardless too of how many excuses he came up with basically mocking 'regulations'; this ultimately was a cop out for him to justify himself using the absolute cheapest materials. I'm sure the conversation about titanium was presented to him numerous times and what we'll eventually know once this all gets a proper audit is he likely declined those materials because they're expensive. It appalls me that they list him as an engineer but the risks he took were all for the sake of not investing into the sub. News will get out once Ocean Gate employees are either left unemployed or quit.

Until that time, again watch shaky hands there snapping that wax cylinder...so for those trying to "determine the exact cause" of the sub imploding. It was that cheap, outdated carbon fiber.
Click to expand...

I'm no engineer, but it seems carbon fiber is a brittle kind of material like rock. Super strong, but once it breaks that threshold it'll shatter or get a giant crack in it. Like it's all or nothing. Whereas metal bends and at least can keep some of it's integrity in place. It's like that gif people showed of the vaccumed tanker. It deforms and bends super fast into a smaller size. But still keeps in tact. But at those depths who knows. Maybe even shitty metal will obliterate into pieces.

Haha. I never saw that video before.

Despite the guy charging $250,000 per person, he had dollar bills in his eyes. Although it probably costs a ton of time and money to service the diving machine back to tip top shape. The sub has reached those depths before, so it's not impossible or the first attempt. I think stories said it did it before a couple years ago. So it's doable.

But what happened is the guy got some sales reservations worth a shit load of money so he did it now.

Does anyone know if the ceo ever did repairs? Or never? It could be a case of he wanted to get in one more deep dive for dollars before repairs. Or perhaps he's never had repairs ever in his mind and will just keep doing it assuming it holds up forever.
 
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D

dave_d

Member
StreetsofBeige said:
I'm no engineer, but it seems carbon fiber is a brittle kind of material like rock. Super strong, but once it breaks that threshold it'll shatter or get a giant crack in it. Like it's all or nothing. Whereas metal bends and at least can keep some of it's integrity in place. It's like that gif people showed of the vaccumed tanker. It deforms and bends super fast into a smaller size. But still keeps in tact. But at those depths who knows. Maybe even shitty metal will obliterate into pieces.
Click to expand...

Like you say, and on top of it there's probably a ton of other questions you need to answer to figure out if you could use it. Besides strength how does it react to repeated cycles of stresses. How does it handle salt water which can be corrosive. How does it handle temperature cycling. (I think it was probably hot at the surface in June but what's the temperature at 12000ft? Wasn't it cold.) We'd need a material scientist to answer those questions and probably a couple dozen more before you could even say if carbon fiber was a good material. (Instead of Stockton's answer which was "oh it's strong.")
 
StreetsofBeige

StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
dave_d said:
Like you say, and on top of it there's probably a ton of other questions you need to answer to figure out if you could use it. Besides strength how does it react to repeated cycles of stresses. How does it handle salt water which can be corrosive. How does it handle temperature cycling. (I think it was probably hot at the surface in June but what's the temperature at 12000ft? Wasn't it cold.) We'd need a material scientist to answer those questions and probably a couple dozen more before you could even say if carbon fiber was a good material. (Instead of Stockton's answer which was "oh it's strong.")
Click to expand...
As for material scientists, not a scientist per se but I'll always remember my engineer buddy who helps design car parts (still does). He started working at car parts companies right out of school. Fun example.

Like in 1999-ish I had an old shitty Chevy Cavalier from my bro. Hand me down piece of shit. The second he handed it over I had issues every year until I got my own car. For such a small car it felt heavy as hell with the heaviest doors ever.

One of the issues was the dashboard. And the part going around the front dash vents by the window would warp. But the rest of the dash seemed fine. They were separate parts, but looked like the same material eyeballing it.

But my buddy said the reason why the vent part is warping is because in summer heat and winter cold it's different than the rest of the dash. It's a different kind of plastic or vinyl so extreme temperatures are fucking it up.

Well, not the type of thing I'd think about as a recent grad business major. But he had an answer.
 
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Dusktildawn48

Dusktildawn48

Member
Alebrije

Alebrije

Member
It is true that due the pressure there are not bodies? Bones, teeths? Nothing? They just become one with the ocean?
 
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U

UnNamed

Banned
StreetsofBeige said:
I'm no engineer, but it seems carbon fiber is a brittle kind of material like rock. Super strong, but once it breaks that threshold it'll shatter or get a giant crack in it. Like it's all or nothing. Whereas metal bends and at least can keep some of it's integrity in place. It's like that gif people showed of the vaccumed tanker. It deforms and bends super fast into a smaller size. But still keeps in tact. But at those depths who knows. Maybe even shitty metal will obliterate into pieces.

Haha. I never saw that video before.

Despite the guy charging $250,000 per person, he had dollar bills in his eyes. Although it probably costs a ton of time and money to service the diving machine back to tip top shape. The sub has reached those depths before, so it's not impossible or the first attempt. I think stories said it did it before a couple years ago. So it's doable.

But what happened is the guy got some sales reservations worth a shit load of money so he did it now.

Does anyone know if the ceo ever did repairs? Or never? It could be a case of he wanted to get in one more deep dive for dollars before repairs. Or perhaps he's never had repairs ever in his mind and will just keep doing it assuming it holds up forever.
Click to expand...

I'm not an expert too, but carbon fiber, despite being very solid, suffer from some type of pressure.
That's why chassis on bikes are made in carbon fiber, and they have super strengthness, but bikers avoid to use it on the handlebar because there are more chances it will break.
 
Happosai

Happosai

Hold onto your panties
StreetsofBeige said:
I'm no engineer, but it seems carbon fiber is a brittle kind of material like rock. Super strong, but once it breaks that threshold it'll shatter or get a giant crack in it. Like it's all or nothing. Whereas metal bends and at least can keep some of it's integrity in place. It's like that gif people showed of the vaccumed tanker. It deforms and bends super fast into a smaller size. But still keeps in tact. But at those depths who knows. Maybe even shitty metal will obliterate into pieces.

Haha. I never saw that video before.

Despite the guy charging $250,000 per person, he had dollar bills in his eyes. Although it probably costs a ton of time and money to service the diving machine back to tip top shape. The sub has reached those depths before, so it's not impossible or the first attempt. I think stories said it did it before a couple years ago. So it's doable.

But what happened is the guy got some sales reservations worth a shit load of money so he did it now.

Does anyone know if the ceo ever did repairs? Or never? It could be a case of he wanted to get in one more deep dive for dollars before repairs. Or perhaps he's never had repairs ever in his mind and will just keep doing it assuming it holds up forever.
Click to expand...
Carbon fiber is brittle and someone can correct me on this but the thought process was that CF would work because the physics work on molds for aircraft bodies. The thought of having that once large flexible piece of tubing, basically, was that a deep water submersible would handle the same way aircraft fuselage maintain pressure. However, that's like reverse physics and completely retarded. Aviation (which is a hobby of mine) is nothing like making submersibles and you're talking about a different pressure altogether. Yes, both have pressurized interiors but the physics behind this is different. Commercial aircraft are given a higher O2 pressure to help not only maintain a survivable artificial atmosphere inside but to reduce the effects on a human body of the lower pressure outside (particularly when at cruise altitude). Having a flexible material in aircraft is essential but this doesn't have to be carbon fiber. Carbon fiber is used in aviation to cut down on the number of parts for the body. When engineering a submersible you're not worrying about maintaining a greater inside pressure to combat a lower/less sustainable outside pressure with flexibility. Rather, you want like Superman-like material to maintain inside pressure mixes with the extremely high pressure outside the vessel. Carbon fiber is irrational and didn't even need to undergo pressure chamber testing to prove it doesn't work. However, thanks to testing...Sir Richard Branson didn't die in his prototype Challenger deep carbon fiber sub. The tests showed cracking, fractures and failure enough to the point where even after investing millions; he opted out altogether. And Branson's not your brightest Billionaire out there either but he had the integrity to listen to the experts.

I would have considered a sub entirely from titanium, steel and put the beta sub through over realistic physical testing to be sure if it was good for 'one dive' or could be maintenance for multiple over time. Stockton Rush disregarded every engineer who challenged this. And I'm sure not all of them were "50-year old white men."

The money like many of Rush's lies was to fund for future research. But what research data did they ever collect previously that's been published? I'm talking Ocean Gate and not research gathered by his tourists. My thoughts are given how little he was willing to invest into the sub itself; the money was going directly into his own accounts as is such with most tourist schemes. Ocean Gate itself likely ran off of giant banks loans and grants from supporters.

I believe the vacuumed tanker was a Mythbusters test to see if they could force implosion by replacing O2 with heated vaper and allow the interior to cool; thus decompress by those means. That was some heavy metal too and likely gives a better idea of what a larger military-like sub would look like at let's say a 2,000 meter implosion.

Titan had already been damaged (possible fracturing or cracking) on its first dive. As some have already stated, he never applied any recorded maintenance to the carbon fiber other than installing an acoustic beacon to detect cracking. Which is completely useless with a material that fragile. You'd be dead likely before you heard much of a warning. We're going to certainly read more as more speak up. We've already deducted that he's lied about most of those like Boeing and NASA who he claimed endorsed or helped with design. So, given his disregard for safety and 'rules'; what do you think will turn up if they audit scheduled pre-dive maintenance on Titan?
 
Tarnpanzer

Tarnpanzer

Member
How many successful tours to the Titanic(~4.000 meters) did this vessel actually achieved?

From my understanding it cracked at ~1.300 meters for this tour?
 
Thaedolus

Thaedolus

Gold Member
Alebrije said:
It is true that due the pressure there are not bodies? Bones, teeths? Nothing? They just become one with the ocean?
Click to expand...
From what I’ve read the rapid change in pressure essentially heats them up to the temperature of the surface of the sun instantly…so they vaporized before they knew anything was happening.

At least that’s how I read it somewhere, I’m no deep sea expert/physicist
 
poppabk

poppabk

Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
Tarnpanzer said:
How many successful tours to the Titanic(~4.000 meters) did this vessel actually achieved?

From my understanding it cracked at ~1.300 meters for this tour?
Click to expand...
Yeah I was under the impression that it had been multiple times, but some youtuber I think has a video where he was to go on the 3rd or 4th trip but it was cancelled due to issues with the sub and he said that the previous two dives had also been cancelled due to weather conditions.
 
The Stig

The Stig

Member
Can't believe the tube was carbon fiber. I'm not a scientist but I worked for a company that makes a ton of shit out of carbon fiber for space, military and aero industries.

I'm pretty sure all the engineers/scientists at that business were like "WTF?!?!" when they found out the tube was made of it.
 
Hawking Radiation

Hawking Radiation

Member
The Stig said:
Can't believe the tube was carbon fiber. I'm not a scientist but I worked for a company that makes a ton of shit out of carbon fiber for space, military and aero industries.

I'm pretty sure all the engineers/scientists at that business were like "WTF?!?!" when they found out the tube was made of it.
Click to expand...

And then glued on titanium end caps to the carbon fiber composite hull.

It's a literal Wish.Com deep see submersible.
 
Hawking Radiation

Hawking Radiation

Member
Herbspiceguy said:
So, apparently it was 'normal' for the Titan's hull to make cracking sounds since it's first dive. Stockton's solution: we'll add sensors to detect failure in hull integrity....

Click to expand...


Daft isn't it. Putting sensors on a thing that's going to fucking fail. It's probably true that they did realize the hull was failing and dropped their weights to ascend but how quickly can you ascend to escape the intense pressure. It's idioitic.

I bet when he explained it all to his Titanic customers they all nodded and probably thought what a brilliant mind this guy is.
 
S

Syphon Filter

Member
Hawking Radiation said:
Daft isn't it. Putting sensors on a thing that's going to fucking fail. It's probably true that they did realize the hull was failing and dropped their weights to ascend but how quickly can you ascend to escape the intense pressure. It's idioitic.

I bet when he explained it all to his Titanic customers they all nodded and probably thought what a brilliant mind this guy is.
Click to expand...
doesnt speed matter too? if a submarine moves fast that is bad right? i think that might be why they move slow, I could be wrong.
 
Hawking Radiation

Hawking Radiation

Member
Syphon Filter said:
doesnt speed matter too? if a submarine moves fast that is bad right? i think that might be why they move slow, I could be wrong.
Click to expand...

Yeah surfacing too quickly is not a good idea but in Stockton's mind it may have been a good idea lol, fuck alone knows what the sensors were meant to do because there comes a critical point in carbon fiber whereby it just gives in. Its not like steel or titanium that have a bit of leeway before they give in. Like bending a spoon, it will bend but the thing will still be whole. Bend a pencil and there's a point where it just snaps. Same with carbon fiber in this application.

The hull sensor likely just went off and no matter how fast they dropped weights or tried to ascend it would be far too late.

To this day it's mind blowing how all these things were missed by the paying passengers. That waiver alone should have been a 'Nope' moment for any sane folk.
 
nkarafo

nkarafo

Member
Happosai said:
Never sure if this was a staged video or not (funny regardless) but the way he snaps the wax recording cylinder makes me think of how carbon fiber handles under outward extreme pressure.



It really was wild west thinking but there were other material options out there which could have worked. I'm sure 'Stockton Rush (sounds like a pen name as I have a CEO who changed his name to something like this)' was presented with more suitable materials for the hull of the sub. Regardless too of how many excuses he came up with basically mocking 'regulations'; this ultimately was a cop out for him to justify himself using the absolute cheapest materials. I'm sure the conversation about titanium was presented to him numerous times and what we'll eventually know once this all gets a proper audit is he likely declined those materials because they're expensive. It appalls me that they list him as an engineer but the risks he took were all for the sake of not investing into the sub. News will get out once Ocean Gate employees are either left unemployed or quit.

Until that time, again watch shaky hands there snapping that wax cylinder...so for those trying to "determine the exact cause" of the sub imploding. It was that cheap, outdated carbon fiber.
Click to expand...


Regardless the materials, a non-spherical shape for the pressure vessel is inherently a sub-optimal design for the job. By making it any other shape, you pretty much also make it weaker by default.

The deep sea is not a place for being sub-optimal.
 
nkarafo

nkarafo

Member
Alebrije said:
It is true that due the pressure there are not bodies? Bones, teeths? Nothing? They just become one with the ocean?
Click to expand...

The bodies got obliterated, not because of the pressure but because of the violent implosion caused by the pressure.

If you just gradually sink in the deep sea, the pressure will kill you ofc but you will end up mostly recognizable in the bottom. Sure some parts of your body and all cavities will collapse and break but you will still look like a regular carcass.

There are videos of submersibles with strapped shallow water fish on them, to attract whatever strange creatures in the bottom. And they did this in even greater depths than where the Titanic is. The strapped fish still look intact.
 
kuncol02

kuncol02

Banned
A
nkarafo said:
Regardless the materials, a non-spherical shape for the pressure vessel is inherently a sub-optimal design for the job. By making it any other shape, you pretty much also make it weaker by default.

The deep sea is not a place for being sub-optimal.
Click to expand...
And yet we actually had sucesfull designs with tubular shapes that could dive to that depth 60 years ago. I actually wonder why he didn't went with coppying design of Aluminaut as it was proven to work and instead went with finicky and unpredictable carbon fiber.
 
Kilau

Kilau

Gold Member
kuncol02 said:
A

And yet we actually had sucesfull designs with tubular shapes that could dive to that depth 60 years ago. I actually wonder why he didn't went with coppying design of Aluminaut as it was proven to work and instead went with finicky and unpredictable carbon fiber.
Click to expand...
Because that wouldn’t be “inspirational”.
 
nkarafo

nkarafo

Member
kuncol02 said:
A

And yet we actually had sucesfull designs with tubular shapes that could dive to that depth 60 years ago. I actually wonder why he didn't went with coppying design of Aluminaut as it was proven to work and instead went with finicky and unpredictable carbon fiber.
Click to expand...

The one you mention from 60 years ago (Trieste) still had a spherical pressure vessel. The rest of the body was other stuff.
 
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