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[Earthstrike]

ohhhh hell no.
If your father came over to you at that age and placed his hand on your shoulder and said, "if you doing this makes you feel natural... I'm always behind you 100% of the choices you make"

A kid at that age, his father and mother accepting him (just so you know, I will type HE all damn night. I'm not accepting a 10 year stating he's feels like a girl) Not at that age, you guys found where I draw the line.

That kid is feeding off the level of attention, he is getting from his mother and his father. He is confused.

What are you basing this off of? You have absolutely no clue what you are talking about. Your previous arguments have been refuted. I don't know whether or not you value and/or understand science but there is something called gender identity. It's been established to the greatest extent a social science can establish something. Gender identity is developed at age 3, like many other mental processes.

Again though, let me know if you understand/value science and reasoning. I don't like wasting my time arguing with people who don't value these things. I learned my lesson arguing with people who believed homosexuality was a choice.

 

[Jeff Albertson]

If one is young enough to know he has a dick and is a boy, why isn't is reasonable to think one is young enough to have a dick and know she is a girl?


I feel this way about you.

But when I was seven I didn't think 'yes I have a Winkie, I was born to have a Winkie this is right' it was just kind of there

Maybe what is foreign to us scares us and I've never come across this hence I don't know how I feel about it

 

[kirblar]

Interesting. I wonder what the underlying causation factor is then. Seems like an incredibly complex issue since gender itself is a societal construct.

I do not understand why "Gender is a Social Construct" is taken as gospel by people.

 

[Metrotab]

Are there any negative consequences if you delay hormonal activities, then let them resume later on in case the gender was misidentified and it was just a phase?

 

[FyreWulff]

That kid is feeding off the level of attention, he is getting from his mother and his father. He is confused.

The only one confused here is you. this isn't 'i like dresses, therefore i'm a girl'. identifying as another gender and crossdressing aren't the same thing. she also isn't doing this for attention.

 

[-COOLIO-]

Wait, I don't get it. Is it simply because the child likes to put on dresses and play with dolls, or something?

Can't you do that stuff and still be considered a boy?

Good question.

 

[KefkaPalazzo]

ohhhh hell no.
If your father came over to you at that age and placed his hand on your shoulder and said, "if you doing this makes you feel natural... I'm always behind you 100% of the choices you make"

A kid at that age, his father and mother accepting him (just so you know, I will type HE all damn night. I'm not accepting a 10 year stating he's feels like a girl) Not at that age, you guys found where I draw the line.

That kid is feeding off the level of attention, he is getting from his mother and his father. He is confused.

You draw the line at a child wanting to be themselves.

You draw the line at the child entering the process when its most effective and eaisest on her.

And your proclamation of how you will say he is juvenile. He's feels indeed.

 

[sk3]

Kindergarten typically starts at age 4 or 5. This kid is 7 or possibly 8 years old.

Yeah, sorry not buying it. Kids do anything for attention.

 

[Devolution]

Kindergarten typically starts at age 4 or 5. This kid is 7 or possibly 8 years old.

Yeah, sorry not buying it. Kids do anything for attention.

This is just ignorant. There's a difference between raiding your mom's closet because you want attention and having issues with your body.

 

[Orayn]

Kindergarten typically starts at age 4 or 5. This kid is 7 or possibly 8 years old.

Yeah, sorry not buying it. Kids do anything for attention.

Kindergarten is 5/6 in the US, meaning 3rd graders are 9 or 10. Young, yes, but a little beyond the kind of attention-seeking behavior you're implying.

 

[Shouta]

And in the mean time... what? This is about managing a child's best interests to keep them happy psychologically. Gender dysphoria can be very dangerous for a kid and its best to allow them to identify as their gender earlier than later and to dress as appropriate for their gender, etc.

Let them enjoy the things they enjoy? They'll get the bigger picture as they develop mentally and when they really are set, then begin the full on process. Work with people to keep the kid from facing too many problems and answer the questions they have.

Besides, I don't think gender roles are quite as important to a kid as they are to a teen and an adult. It will shape them in the long term but let the kid be a kid and not a boy or a girl. Teaching the other kids that treating everyone as an individual is key.

I actually have experience with this issue from a teacher's stand point. I'd rather the kid be themselves fluidly until they really need to adhere to a gender role.

 

[SoulPlaya]

She never was a boy. At all. She was a girl. The classic analogy is being "trapped in the wrong body." It's not like someone started out as a boy, say, and then suddenly at a certain age a girl spirit takes over the body and becomes trapped. She's a girl. Is, was, will be.

What if he changes his mind at a later date, and decides to live his life as a boy/man? Was he still "never a boy".

It's too early to make these assertions about a young child.

 

[Razek]

I do not understand why "Gender is a Social Construct" is taken as gospel by people.

It's still out for debate as far as I know. Things like choosing colors, affinity to toys and games, and performing certain tasks (wrestling vs. knitting) are definitely cultural though.

 

[Cyan]

What if he changes his mind at a later date, and decides to live his life as a boy/man? Was he still "never a boy".

Yes.

It's too early to make these assertions about a young child.

Please link to your data.

It's still out for debate as far as I know. Things like choosing colors, affinity to toys and games, and performing certain tasks (wrestling vs. knitting) are definitely cultural though.

Certainly transgenderism seems like strong evidence that gender is not a purely social construct.

 

[Perspicacity]

Kindergarten typically starts at age 4 or 5. This kid is 7 or possibly 8 years old.

Yeah, sorry not buying it. Kids do anything for attention.

I know I faked a ton of medical disorders to get my way through elementary school.

 

[Jeff Albertson]

Wait, I don't get it. Is it simply because the child likes to put on dresses and play with dolls, or something?

Can't you do that stuff and still be considered a boy?

This is what throws me

At that age you don't have a clue what it is to be male or female you are just a kid, maybe the kid prefers pink to blue or barbies to Action men but I can't see how someone at that age can know they should be the opposite sex

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

What if he changes his mind at a later date, and decides to live his life as a boy/man? Was he still "never a boy".

It's too early to make these assertions about a young child.

Going by certain posters in this thread, one side is allowed to make assertions and the other isn't.

 

[Devolution]

Let them enjoy the things they enjoy? They'll get the bigger picture as they develop mentally and when they really are set, then begin the full on process. Work with people to keep the kid from facing too many problems and answer the questions they have.

Besides, I don't think gender roles are quite as important to a kid as they are to a teen and an adult. It will shape them in the long term but let the kid be a kid and not a boy or a girl. Teaching the other kids that treating everyone as an individual is key.

I actually have experience with this issue from a teacher's stand point. I'd rather the kid be themselves fluidly until they really need to adhere to a gender role.

Really need to? They're already forced to once they go out into the world.

 

[Gaborn]

What if he changes his mind at a later date, and decides to live his life as a boy/man? Was he still "never a boy".

It's too early to make these assertions about a young child.

I think when you get to the point that you hire a lawyer to work out a deal with a school district for your child to be allowed to be themselves at school you're probably pretty sure and the child is pretty sure and the doctors evaluating them are pretty sure. I really really really really really don't think this was the hasty decision you seem to think it was.

And its her mind. And her life.

 

[BadAss2961]

I'm not asking you why it was okay for me to do these things, I'm asking why it wasn't okay for boys to do the opposite.

Because it's clearly a statement to everyone that the boy is a girl despite his body showing otherwise.

Wait, I don't get it. Is it simply because the child likes to put on dresses and play with dolls, or something?

Can't you do that stuff and still be considered a boy?

Good question.

It really is.

I'm really not trying to offend anyone, but what about the possibility of the boy maybe just being gay instead?

 

[jtb]

What if he changes his mind at a later date, and decides to live his life as a boy/man? Was he still "never a boy".

It's too early to make these assertions about a young child.

well that's kind of the problem isn't it? Everyone's different and comes to these conclusions at different ages; it's kind of stupid to draw arbitrary lines (oh if he/she can decide their identity at age... 13! but no earlier!) for when one is old enough to decide. How young is young? And for who?

 

[Perspicacity]

What if he changes his mind at a later date, and decides to live his life as a boy/man? Was he still "never a boy".

It's too early to make these assertions about a young child.

So you're saying all children should take hormone blockers in order to undergo psychological gender testing at an appropriate age? That seems a bit extreme.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Because it's clearly a statement to everyone that the boy is a girl despite his body showing otherwise. It really is.

I'm really not trying to offend anyone, but what about the possibility of the boy maybe just being gay instead?

Gender and sex are different, and sexual orientation has nothing to do with gender identity at all.

 

[Neki]

Because it's clearly a statement to everyone that the boy is a girl despite his body showing otherwise. It really is.

I'm really not trying to offend anyone, but what about the possibility of the boy maybe just being gay instead?

What does being gay have anything to do with being transgender?

 

[PhoenixDark]

Way too young to dress and act like a girl you mean? I was doing the reverse well before 10.

Which makes me wonder whether this kid is actually transgendered or just a boy who likes "girl stuff"

 

[Gaborn]

Because it's clearly a statement to everyone that the boy is a girl despite his body showing otherwise. It really is.

I'm really not trying to offend anyone, but what about the possibility of the boy maybe just being gay instead?

She could be a lesbian certainly.

 

[SoulPlaya]

I think when you get to the point that you hire a lawyer to work out a deal with a school district for your child to be allowed to be themselves at school you're probably pretty sure and the child is pretty sure and the doctors evaluating them are pretty sure. I really really really really really don't think this was the hasty decision you seem to think it was.

And its her mind. And her life.

I'm sorry, but that's a weak ass argument. Who knows what's going on with the parents, or why they're doing this?

 

[DonasaurusRex]

third grade? mmmmmm not so sure about this...

 

[BadAss2961]

Gender and sex are different, and sexual orientation has nothing to do with gender identity at all.

Understood... But if you think i'm confused about this, how the fuck do we assume a 10 year old understands this.

 

[Devolution]

Which makes me wonder whether this kid is actually transgendered or just a boy who likes "girl stuff"

That's the point of taking the child to see specialists and experts. But clearly Gaffers here are the experts despite not even knowing basic child developmental patterns.

Understood... But if you think i'm confused about this, how the fuck do we assume a 10 year old understands this.

The same way people understand there is something different or wrong about them. Then they see the proper professionals who can diagnose these things. Do people even bother to realize that this is a recognized disorder? Christ.

 

[SoulPlaya]

So you're saying all children should take hormone blockers in order to undergo psychological gender testing at an appropriate age? That seems a bit extreme.

Stop it, Persp, lol.

 

[FyreWulff]

Which makes me wonder whether this kid is actually transgendered or just a boy who likes "girl stuff"

... it'd be very easy to figure out which one it is after sessions with doctors and psychologists.

 

[-COOLIO-]

No, not yet. That decision will probably be made in a few years, and they'll probably delay her puberty soon with hormone blockers to give her and her doctors more time to make sure that it would be the correct decision.

I feel like the decision will probably hedge mostly on whether or not the kid is into the opposite/same(?) sex or not and will he/she be able to find out with hormone blockers? I'm all for school being accepting of him/her but this hormone blocker talk is some seriously heavy shit. Have there ever been cases where the choice to use hormone blockers has backfired?

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Understood... But if you think i'm confused about this, how the fuck do we assume a 10 year old understands this.

You apparently know better for this 10-year-old than we do, going by your arguments. This statement by you would make more sense if you were more neutral and skeptical rather than aggressive and dismissive.

 

[Gaborn]

Understood... But if you think i'm confused about this, how the fuck do we assume a 10 year old understands this.

Are you suggesting that you think this was solely the child's decision?

 

[kirblar]

It's still out for debate as far as I know. Things like choosing colors, affinity to toys and games, and performing certain tasks (wrestling vs. knitting) are definitely cultural though.

Completely agree that there are many cultural variations in the way the genders are treated. It feels like to me, though, that the "social construct" people want to try and ignore that we're animals with hormonal behavior.

 

[Kwixotik]

I don't really understand how a kid can know their gender identity before they hit puberty.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

I don't really understand how a kid can know their gender identity before they hit puberty.

Sexual behavior/identity is different than gender identity.

 

[SoulPlaya]

No, not yet. That decision will probably be made in a few years, and they'll probably delay her puberty soon with hormone blockers to give her and her doctors more time to make sure that it would be the correct decision.

Holy shit, isn't that ridiculously extreme?

 

[Gaborn]

I feel like decision will probably hedge mostly on whether or not the kid is into the opposite/same? sex or not and will he/she be able to find out with hormone blockers? I'm all for school being accepting of him/her but this hormone blocker talk is some seriously heavy shit. Have there ever been cases where the choice to use hormone blocker has backfired?

What? No, that's basically irrelevant. I know gay transgender people, I know straight transgender people, and I know bi transgender people. Sexual orientation is distinct from gender identity.

 

[kirblar]

What does being gay have anything to do with being transgender?

You can have gay kids who like crossdressing at a young age. It's a reason to postpone the decision for irreversible options long enough to make sure the kid's actually dysphoric and not something else.

 

[-COOLIO-]

Then again maybe it doesnt hedge on sexual preference. he might in fact want to be a girl who likes other girls. But yeah hormone blockers are some heavy shit.

 

[Earthstrike]

Let them enjoy the things they enjoy? They'll get the bigger picture as they develop mentally and when they really are set, then begin the full on process. Work with people to keep the kid from facing too many problems and answer the questions they have.

Besides, I don't think gender roles are quite as important to a kid as they are to a teen and an adult. It will shape them in the long term but let the kid be a kid and not a boy or a girl. Teaching the other kids that treating everyone as an individual is key.

I actually have experience with this issue from a teacher's stand point. I'd rather the kid be themselves fluidly until they really need to adhere to a gender role.

I like what you're saying in principle, but there is a problem insofar as it is the case that transgendered people often feel that they need to express themselves as the other gender in order to be themselves.

 

[BadAss2961]

Are you suggesting that you think this was solely the child's decision?

Of course it wasn't solely the child's decision. That's what bothers me. It's the first point I made.

 

[FyreWulff]

I don't really understand how a kid can know their gender identity before they hit puberty.

Sexual orientation and gender identity are separate.

 

[Gaborn]

Holy shit, isn't that ridiculously extreme?

No, that is the recommended course of action by the Endocrine Society.

 

[Devolution]

I don't really understand how a kid can know their gender identity before they hit puberty.

How do they know now?

 

[MrToughPants]

Kindergarten is 5/6 in the US, meaning 3rd graders are 9 or 10. Young, yes, but a little beyond the kind of attention-seeking behavior you're implying.

In my experience, working around hundreds of K>6, they crave attention the same be it K or grade 6. Some 5-6 students are actually worse than the kindergartens, which are surprisingly well behaved unless they are FAS or developmentally challenged.

Grade 3 is 8 or 9 unless you were held back...

 

[Earthstrike]

Holy shit, isn't that ridiculously extreme?

In a sense yes, but, based on what I know about transgenderism, it doesn't scale with the extremity of allowing a transgendered person to experience the puberty of the gender they do not identify with.

 

[Razek]

Completely agree that there are many cultural variations in the way the genders are treated. It feels like to me, though, that the "social construct" people want to try and ignore that we're animals with hormonal behavior.

Certainly transgenderism seems like strong evidence that gender is not a purely social construct.

Exactly. Gender identities are certainly morphed and distorted through human history, but I feel they had to start from a source which is the human mind.