need4speed
Banned
Seriously?
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Tropes Vs. Women Episode 2 - Damsels In Distress Part [spoiler warning]
- Thread starter Mesoian
- Start date
- Status
Seriously?
A Link to the Past
Banned
I didn't know that there existed people who felt the need to defend the rights to threaten peoples' lives, troll, flame, spam, etc.
Not this again.
Freedom of speech means the government of your country does not shut you up, that's all. Nobody is required to give your (no doubt fascinating) opinions a platform.
I can't make a statement on that until I played the game. There are many ways to be one dimensional. For all I know, Jenny could be the only woman in the game and she is treated in a unique way due to her being female. My point was that it is incorrect to say that Jenny wasn't "jackie's" because the relationship was well written.
Well, the one scene she showed was the villain saying he's going to take whats his, so that at the very least character does consider her jackie's possession and I don't know if there is anything in the game that disproves that. I wouldn't say that invalidates her position in the narrative as a possession...
but, for my 2 cents, I'm not sure that's such a bad thing, from a narrative perspective, fyi. Jackie is perfectly okay to consider Jenny his possession (which would be misogynistic, but that can be treated as a character flaw), and the best way to counter this would be to show outside evidence that she isn't. For example, find her diary notes where she talks about her life outside Jackie or outright defying him in some way. Something like that.
Youre generalizing the entire Youtube population to those people? Wow.
The removal was probably related to this: Nintendo going after Youtube Let's Play videos
Let's play ban?
dark_inferno
Member
Thank god its down. I watched it and its just a pointless debate. Im not against women in games or bringing them more into the focus but a few things she said made me grin because it was stupid as hell. And people even paid this girl to make shitty one sided arguments. Well im outta here.
She gets into that.
IHaveCandy
Banned
Youtube is a private group that gives her the right to control that. Freedom of speech keeps the government from silencing you. Individual people are free to not leave open avenues of communication with them.
It is when it is disproportionately affecting one gender over the other. And when every main character is a man...
...man, I sound like I liked this a lot more than I actually did, but I really just hate stupid arguments about it that show no attempt to actually understand what she was talking about. Because then we can't actually point out what she really DID get wrong
That's really stupid if true. I wonder if it's just a knee-jerk thing.
~Devil Trigger~
In favor of setting Muslim women on fire
Copyright infringement.
Gutsy Frog
Banned
The thing is that the first video at least covered two hugely popular series that pretty much everyone has played. You could tell that in order to show the 'truly insidious' uses of the trope, she had to dig far deeper.
I kinda doubt she'd do it over typical M-rated video game male-on-male graphic violence, at least. Like, if she showed off Manhunt footage or something in a different video.
Specifying "Trigger Warning" instead of just saying "Warning: [insert objectionable content here]" always seemed silly to me. It just seems like a cliquey thing to do.
Probably. It's one of the biggest problems she's going to have. A lot of publishers, especially japanese ties, aren't going to want their current games which are still being sold at a high, to be defaced for any reason. Konami pulls down LP's at the drop of a hat if there's anything negative in them.
Yeaaah...that sounded a lot better in your head, didn't it?
Phoenician_Viking
Banned
Yes he did. He destroyed every single biased point she made.
PairOfFilthySocks
Member
Finished watching it.
All I am thinking right now is that I could have just read the relevant pages on TvTropes.com and gotten the same experience and insight.
All I am thinking right now is that I could have just read the relevant pages on TvTropes.com and gotten the same experience and insight.
notworksafe
Member
It's automatic. I've had YT flag/remove some of my videos before because it triggered some automated detection system within just a few minutes.
IHaveCandy
Banned
Looks like the video game industry is gonna want a piece of that sweet Kickstarter money.
Visualante2
Member
That face palm was so forced.
Curious that she didn't bring up The Legend of Zelda Wind Waker for bucking some of the trends that the series has been so known for.
lol wtf someone filed a DMCA claim against it? (heeeeeey I was watching that!)
Curious that she didn't bring up The Legend of Zelda Wind Waker for bucking some of the trends that the series has been so known for.
lol wtf someone filed a DMCA claim against it? (heeeeeey I was watching that!)
Well their are indeed not worthy of a pulitzer indeed but your approach is just plain over simplifying. Each game is made by different people who bears different ideas and backgrouds that reflect on the game. That's why they are consider pop culture pieces in the first place.
Even if there are common outlines (that Anita points out) context in each game may turn a cliché into a message that goes beyong the mere plot device. Or even if it's just that, it may add a certain element that changes the tone of a feature like the ones exposed in the video.
Gutsy Frog
Banned
I understand not wanting a million rape comments from /b/ kids, but at the same time, she ALSO disabled ratings. Meaning that not publicizing the negativity is certainly a big part of it.
And I don't buy her argument there. She's the one oversimplifying the issue by trying to say that it perpetuates the stereotype even if it's done well in the game itself.
~Devil Trigger~
In favor of setting Muslim women on fire
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
Eh, It was probably filled by a Troll.
It is when it is disproportionately affecting one gender over the other. And when every main character is a man...
...man, I sound like I liked this a lot more than I actually did, but I really just hate stupid arguments about it that show no attempt to actually understand what she was talking about. Because then we can't actually point out what she really DID get wrong
I think that arguments about proportionality are entirely pointless. You're not even arguing that the content is bad then. You're arguing about a ratio, literally.
If all people want is a greater proportion of revenge stories starring women, then they need to support stories like that if they star women and that interests them.
Ironically, Tomb Raider (loved it) is exactly that and everyone tried to trash it and say it was sexist.
My avatar is actually from the TV show "Revenge," about a woman who basically just plots revenge all day long and takes people down.
The S2 finale actually had a male in distress too. At no point did I think it was sexist
Being offended by a ratio is pointless. These are market driven decisions. Throw all your feminist theory and morality out the window if all you care about is proportionality.
The Crimson Kid
what are you waiting for
I gave her the benefit of the doubt after her first video where she implied (based on nothing) that Mario was just rescuing Peach because he effectively viewed her as his property (paraphrasing, don't remember the exact quote).
It was a pretty big red flag for me that her ideological bias was overwhelming the facts of what was actually being presented to make points that weren't actually based on the context of the games themselves. There was just so little to go off of in the original Super Mario games that would imply that, but that also meant that it was hard to disprove her interpretation either.
But now with The Darkness, a series that goes into great detail about the relationship between Jackie and Jenny, she tries to pull this crap again. However, throughout the two Darkness games, it is made abundantly clear that the nature of their relationship doesn't have a single thing to do with Jackie "owning" Jenny. It is made abundantly clear that not only do they love each other, she is the only person who truly understood him and he saw her as his only good friend. While there is strife in the relationship at times, there is never a hint of abuse or treating her as unequal from Jackie, and Jenny isn't made out to be a sexpot, a slut, or anything else that is uniquely derogatory towards women.
The undeniable fact here is that she twisted and distorted the entirety of the story of these games by plucking a tiny bit of one of them out of context to try and make an ideologically biased point that runs counter to the entirety of the content of both games. This is seriously some Fox News-level intellectual dishonesty and ideological bias.
This bugs me because this is obviously a huge issue for the industry across the board, and the issue deserves a more balanced and more honest spokesperson than she is.
Here's the bottom line: If you can't make your point without completely lying about what you are talking about, then either your point can't stand up to much intellectual scrutiny or you aren't capable of making it properly.
...Because Alan is just trying to get HIS PROPERTY BACK. Obviously Alan just views his wife as an object he owns rather than a human being.
In fact, it's so obvious that she's not going to bother explaining.
timetokill
Banned
It's funny that it got taken down because her credits reel insists that the clips are all used under "fair use."
It is when it is disproportionately affecting one gender over the other. And when every main character is a man...
...man, I sound like I liked this a lot more than I actually did, but I really just hate stupid arguments about it that show no attempt to actually understand what she was talking about. Because then we can't actually point out what she really DID get wrong
Which character deaths have actually effected you as a player? Not how many female character have died or almost died, but which characters dying actually effected you?
Also, plenty of male characters get taken out as an attempt to illicit a emotional response. Mass Effect has that, and you can even play as a female character.
Cymbal Head
Banned
I'm going to try to stay out of this thread and any of it's horrible thread-spawn this time.
Last time was just too much.
But I can assume this post will have utility in this thread as well.
Edit: Wait it got taken down because of a copyright complaint? Ell oh fucking ell. If there's one thing that pisses me off more than sexist nerds, it's overbearing copyright bozos. I definitely need to stay out of this thread.
Last time was just too much.
But I can assume this post will have utility in this thread as well.
Edit: Wait it got taken down because of a copyright complaint? Ell oh fucking ell. If there's one thing that pisses me off more than sexist nerds, it's overbearing copyright bozos. I definitely need to stay out of this thread.
That is her claim, whether it be right or wrong.
Riposte
Member
For a lot of that you can replace "women" with "human" and it would basically be saying the same thing. The difference would be that it wouldn't fit under this hot topic and would be an overall critique on videogames being violent. She more or less makes this her point by the time she starts naming indie games.
The game is more focused on Jackie (he gives long monologues and stuff) and is not trying to build up the world like a BioShock or Mass Effect is. This is a weird ass solution to a problem that may not even exist. The only reason you are even looking at the Darkness weird is because OTHER games don't have enough female protags doing the same thing.
A Link to the Past
Banned
ITP: "I like the games Ueda makes, therefore he is a flawless human being who can do no wrong in my eyes."
1. If leading a defenseless woman around - a woman who seems pretty arbitrarily defensive considering that she could probably have pushed Ico around pretty handily - was the only thing questionable about his games' content, you'd have a great point there.
2. Or that a woman can't make music that would appeal to men.
3. Except that there exists many, many examples of strong women, women strong enough to do anything in The Last Guardian, in all kinds of fiction - ESPECIALLY video games. No way Ueda didn't observe those games. He made a conscious decision to state not that it was less believable, that the idea of a strong female character was SO unbelievable that the player would not feel invested in the game if they were playing as a female character who could climb. By the way, it's pretty curious that you suggest a need for Ueda to explain why a strong female character can exist, as if every - or hell, ANY - video game featuring a strong lead female had to do anything of the sort. And quite frankly, if Ueda's POV is that females need to be able to prove that they can climb around on ledges, that's just further proof that he is sexist.
You also didn't address the skirt issue.
I also skirted (ha!) past the definition of sexism. He chose to go with a male composer because he felt he would be better qualified to appeal to men, as if men are more able to make music for other men. He made a game with a stereotypical lead female character, who is too weak and helpless to defend herself for some reason. And the biggest one, of course, is replacing a character because he didn't think it appropriate for her to not wear a skirt, and didn't feel that females would be able to realistically climb well, which can be disproven using real life examples.
partyphone
Banned
more than likely youtube's automatic content ID match system. they can appeal and get the video back up. it's very clearly fair use.
spandexmonkey
Banned
She kind of negates her own point when she says that we're not animals that automatically mimic what we see. Violence in games doesn't equate to violence in real life. I do agree these tropes are used to often (and often poorly), but attaching them to a larger problem within society is a pretty weak argument.
It had nothing to do with Nintendo. All Nintendo is doing is putting ads next to people's videos with their content, people are just so biased against Nintendo they blame them for everything.
They are not removing videos.
You do realize that that would require actual effort?
....how?
akidnamededdy
Banned
She's probably saving it for the no doubt teeny tiny "positive examples" video she'll have ready in, at this rate, two or three years. Or more likely she'll just pretend it doesn't exist.
They're not having them yanked or anything.
It can be changed to a Dead wife and kidnapped SON ?
It can be changed to a Dead BROTHER and kidnapped MALE FRIEND ?
It can be changed to a Dead UNCLE and kidnapped Unrelated Male child ?
In 99% of the cases it could be changed EASILY, specialy the second part.
If he CHOOSE the cliche version, than he perpetuates the stereotype. Simple as that.
And she shows lots of examples of "done well in the game"
... which makes the bet I made much easier xD
Read it again ... we don't EQUATE what we see, but it makes us more "meh, another one" when something happens and THIS is problematic because being flooded by entertainment showing this show us it is normal, it is EXPECTED and THIS is the problem
This this this.
Her points in this video are so random and lacking context, she says an event and then blazes through another example. If you want to debate something, everything contextually has to fit.
- Status