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[TheBaronOfNA]

Holy shit, does she not know that Dante's Inferno is based on a centuries-old poem?

Eh... dude, in the Original Dante's Inferno... Beatrice was already dead (and Dante was a exilied poet)...

 

[Surface of Me]

Why don't you actually watch the video? She names games that aren't sexist despite using a variant of the tropes she discusses. She's not suggesting that no game should ever use the DiD trope at all.

What examples does she give? There are a few games I don't want spoiled.

 

[McBradders]

I think that in order to facilitate discussion of things that exist in videogames, you'll need to *gasp*, give examples from videogames after you've played them in their entirety.

Can you write a good analysis of a novel without spoiling the main plot points?

Edit: Yeah Snake Eater IS the same, although I'd like to think the context makes it better! But yeah it doesn't...

Was the use of the word "endless" not enough of an indicator that my opinion is that there are too many examples when there needn't be? There's no need for every single example to be listed especially given how recent some of them are.

I was fairly careful of my wording of my opinion to ensure that someone wasn't going to get all whatever about it, but wow here we are.

 

[Splash Wave]

I'm not liking this analysis as much as the first. Despite the introductory disclaimer that the analysis is divorced from an opinion on the game, the use of terms such as "insidious" or even "patriarchal imbalance of power in love" kind of take me out of the conversation. The problem with labeling an imbalance of power being instrumental to love as "patriarchal" is that it implies that the "matriarchal" solution is equilibrium. There is no evidence that that is the case, and I see men and women fall in love with people that they want to change or to care for. Caregiving being a part of love has little to do with genderism and absolutely nothing to do with patriarchy - wasn't this the entire crux of the "gays can't raise children" argument? Caregivers and caretakers exist in all realms - and in that sense it does make sense given the male-dominant industry that a lot of the tropes rely on women being in threat as a hook for men to care. It's a cheap, uninteresting hook, but as Anita pointed out with Psychonauts, as long as good writing is there it doesn't matter what trope is used. As with the previous episode, the biggest point made here is that games need to branch out. This is a billion dollar industry with children and adults trying out new games at an absurd pace, so a wider vision for games would be great. This is also why I'm excited for the consoles that have embraced the indie development scene. These types of experiences are usually the forefront for thought-provoking gameplay, and inoffensive stories.

No it doesn't. The problem isn't that one partner is caring for the other--this is entirely normal and healthy--but that the depiction of such care is always one-sided. And this is entirely "patriarchal," as you put it; the trope has its foundation in Medieval Romance, which was a blatantly patriarchal society. Modern gender relations have been defined by our more overtly problematic forbearers, unfortunately.

 

[Mesoian]

...in the way that Alexander Dumas' The Three Musketeers existing means that Paul W.S. Anderson's The Three Musketeers film is immune to criticism?

EDIT: GAH! Mesoian beat me to it

Your example's probably better.

AIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIRSHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIPS!!!

 

[Lambtron]

A lot of negative ratings can mean two things:

1) People are troglodytes.

2) People actually think she is wrong and makes not so good videos.

People decided she is wrong and would make not so good videos before the Kickstarter campaign even finished. Not to mention all manner of other awful shit they did because of her project. I'm going to go ahead and firmly stand in the camp of "people are troglodytes."

 

[IHaveCandy]

She's not really telling anybody anything new or giving new insight. It's all just summarization. Id expect to read more thorough analysis in a Wikipedia article.

 

[Pau]

You can criticize the comments that he's made, but that doesn't change that there's no romance in ICO despite her putting it in a section where she talks about that. Like I said, it's never even implied that there's some sort of romance between Ico and Yorda.

Oh, I wasn't responding to anyone who claimed that there was romance between Yorda and ICO. I'd agree that it doesn't belong there as it's not a romance.

Agree, but at the same time you should separate some of that ideas from the work... specially because is a collective one.

But those ideas have directly influenced decisions he personally made about the game. You can't separate them.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

I still can't believe people are giving her shit for closing down discussion on youtube. I would love to see a single instance where a massively popular video (say 500,000 view or more) has a civilized, articulate, and intelligent discussion in it's comments.

Her videos we're open when it interested her on becoming a victim of trolling.

 

[Veelk]

It doesn't matter, she can easily ignore it. She just doesn't want the world to see all the negativity.

Of course not. Who would want to see all the terrible misogynistic bullshit that idiots have to say? There is no point to it. There are good discussions to be had and it's perfectly reasonable to shut one avenue where it doesn't exist down.

 

[KTallguy]

What examples does she give? There are a few games I don't want spoiled.

Beyond Good and Evil, Mirror's Edge... I think there was one more.

Edit: The comments about her earrings or her makeup are hilarious. If the person on screen was a guy, I wonder how many comments about her appearance would show up.

 

[Zomba13]

I wish she would stop wearing those hoop earrings though, they're distracting.

Honestly my biggest complaint. I hate those kind of earrings.

 

[anaron]

I still can't believe people are giving her shit for closing down discussion on youtube. I would love to see a single instance where a massively popular video (say 500,000 view or more) has a civilized, articulate, and intelligent discussion in it's comments.

Especially when the "like/dislike bar" gets hampered by trolls and is then held up as some sort of fighting example.

 

[Heyt]

This guy debunked her last video thoroughly.

Yes, she has also noted it and tryes to adress some of his points in the new video atempting defense. I don't think she does that very well.

She also tries to shield herself behind a wall of games. I think that she believes that if she uses too many examples so no single individual can know them all enough for debunking her arguments one by one like the video you just posted, she'll be fine. I don't think that's going to work this time since she brought so many games that context for each example was non-existant.

 

[A Link to the Past]

I would love to see people who actually create things like books, films, and videogames, attempt to develop a project through the feminist frequency filter.

The roles in which women could play would be so incredibly limited that they would either have to be the flawless primary subject or almost a non factor. Anywhere in between seems to be fraught with danger of falling into one of the pits dug by the facile arguments she makes.

Damsel = bad (submissive / lack of agency)

Sexually Attractive = bad (just giving in to the horny teenagers)

Uses physicality to defeat opponents = bad (just emulating violent men, nothing feminine about it)

Sidekick = bad (just serving the heroic male like always)

Antagonist = bad (woman can not be shown to be manipulative, vain or selfish)

So really all we are left with is a game about a female protagonist, who is plain as to not give off any sexual energy, doesn't use violence to defeat her opponents, never needs help from a member of the opposite sex as to avoid being the damsel, never appears to be weak willed, and uses her mind and specific feminine qualities to win the day.

Sounds like a terrific game. I can't believe no one has made it.

ITP: An intentional exaggeration of the tropes. A damsel is rarely a "good" trope to use for a female character because it sets the character up like a prop. Sexual attractiveness is also more to motivate players, or for the character to utilize it as a weapon, the former making it a prop trope. The matter of physicality has never been an issue, the issue has been when it is done poorly. Lara's physicality, for example, is not an example of this trope.

Going into your write-up, a damsel is not someone who gets help. That you said that tells me you don't truly care about having a real dialogue about this.

 

[Kusagari]

All this video really involves is her throwing clip after clip at you with no real discussion on what the clip actually entails in the context of the game.

This series would be far more successful if she focused on a few games in particular and links them back to the problem with the industry as a whole.

 

[Takuya]

Of course not. Who would want to see all the terrible misogynistic bullshit that idiots have to say? There is no point to it. There are good discussions to be had and it's perfectly reasonable to shut one avenue where it doesn't exist down.

Free speech, how does it work? Or does that not apply here because this is a funded series?

 

[PK Gaming]

I've been waiting for this video for ages.

Gonna watch this over a nice meal ♪

PS: Is anyone else excited for the positive female characters video? It's soooo far away

 

[CaptainSchwann]

There are plenty of other ways to do it that wouldn't require any more budget than what it has.

Right, but my point is that there is PLENTY of back story and info of her. Even if all of it wasn't included it's not the writers fault that Anita doesn't know it.

 

[Rebochan]

Instead of focusing so much energy on complaining about non-harmful tropes, I think she would be much better utilized making educational material for would-be creators to 1) inform them of such tropes, which is something a writer should learn about anyway and 2) invent ways to subvert the tropes or create new stories entirely in an effort to evolve the art of storytelling.

Actually, she IS intending to that as it was one of the Kickstarter stretch goals. The videos are part of it. I agree with your assessment that the analysis needs to be MUCH deeper, but this is at least supposed to be addressed with the kickstarter funds.

A multi-pronged approach is useful - if consumers demand a change in how products are sold to them, that can make a much greater difference. It's much easier to tell developers to change their ways when it's established that there's a market receptive to it.

 

[Regulus Tera]

Hahahaha oh the Ico example is gonna get people in arms. I for one am enjoying the craziness.

 

[SovanJedi]

I'm probably too far over to the male side to be able to effectively comment on some of this stuff. However, claiming ICO is sexist is really pushing it. The game is about a young boy escaping a castle with an (older) ghost girl - there's no power fantasy or male dominance, it's survival and fairytale references. It would be EXACTLY the same if the genders were reversed, with no let-up on emotional attachment.

 

[IHaveCandy]

Free speech, how does it work? Or does that not apply here because this is a funded series?

Freedom of speech doesn't mean private groups have to give you a platform to speak.

 

[Sophia]

All this video really involves is her throwing clip after clip at you with no real discussion on what the clip actually entails in the context of the game.

This series would be far more successful if she focused on a few games in particular and links them back to the problem with the industry as a whole.

Yeah. She should have cut down on the examples to a third or so, and gone indepth. There's a lot of examples that are taken out of context, and aren't really sexist or playing the Damsel in Distress trope in the way she's indicating.

I also find her mention of Persona 4 Arena hilarious, given the game's plot is more or less rescuing a damsel in distress.

 

[Mesoian]

Yes, she has also noted it and tryes to adress some of his points in the new video atempting defense. I don't think she does that very well.

She also tries to shield herself behind a wall of games. I think that she believes that if she uses too many examples so no single individual can know them all enough for debunking her arguments one by one like the video you just posted, she'll be fine. I don't think that's going to work this time since she brought so many games that context for each example was non-existant.

Well, considering the bevy of games she used really can be broken down into 2 or 3 sentences, it's not THAT much of a stretch. Honestly there were a lot of bad games being used as an example, and the good ones being used were never Pulitzer material.

 

[Takuya]

Freedom of speech doesn't mean private groups have to give you a platform to speak.

Eh the platform was there, she deliberately switched it off.

 

[Pau]

Free speech, how does it work? Or does that not apply here because this is a funded series?

Umm, it's not illegal to disable comments on Youtube, last time I checked. Free speech isn't being torn down over here. There are much better avenues for people to have a discussion about this.

Eh the platform was there, she deliberately switched it off.

Probably because whatever discussion that could be had wasn't worth having a bunch of rape threats visible on the platform she decided to use to distribute her video.

 

[Zoe]

So was the trigger warning warranted?

 

[Mesoian]

Yeah. She should have cut down on the examples to a third or so, and gone indepth. There's a lot of examples that are taken out of context, and aren't really sexist or playing the Damsel in Distress trope in the way she's indicating.

I also find her mention of Persona 4 Arena hilarious, given the game's plot is more or less rescuing a damsel in distress.

:-I

Sort of...not really though. Little Sis Tier would have been...fine? I dunno, the biggest problem with the P4A plot is that the "to be continued" shit controls so much of the motivations of so many.

 

[sleepykyo]

Holy hell, did this one trope really need three fucking videos?

Why not 3? Past, present and what she'd like to see for the future.

 

[need4speed]

Did Youtube remove the video? I can't seem to access it.

 

[polyh3dron]

hahahaha max payne 3 is about fucking human trafficking. Are you shitting me?

I knew better than to give money to someone who was clearly unqualified to tackle this issue. All this does is make feminism look worse and defeats it's purpose of education.

but when the human trafficking is women it's sexist

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

But those ideas have directly influenced decisions he personally made about the game. You can't separate them.

But the game doesn't tell you that, is as minimalist as posible. The game as is own does not impy the actual gender views of Ueda.

 

[Duallusion]

She should be doing videos with someone who would challenge some of her exact examples or her views in general. More conversation and less preaching is what her and this topic needs.

 

[Superflat]

The way she words things, she seems to want to eradicate tropes instead of coexisting with more variety. No thanks.

Also saying that the danger of a main character's loved one is somehow something that all men secretly want and want perpetuated? That part is nonsense. Amazing films and books use this supposed trope, and in an engaging way that doesn't play to male power fantasies. I just don't get how she can present these connections as fact. A good number of the fleeting examples seemed incidental that they were women, since many of the recurring clips were taken from the same small pool of titles.

The video does bring to light just how unimaginative these tropes were used in tons of video games though, and the glaring fact that there aren't many games with a female protagonist who has a male significant other (they're mostly neutral loners), while most male characters has a soft spot for a female.

 

[royalan]

Wait.

The video has been removed....

 

[KaYotiX]

This guy debunked her last video thoroughly.

I agree with a lot of his rebuttal video.

Woman is the object because most bad guys hurt the hero in the easiest way,take the one he cares about away from him.

 

[Alienous]

Not really. ICO was about leading a defenseless female, SotC had a male composer because Ueda felt that one was needed to appeal to men (thanks to Aeana for pointing that out), and The Last Guardian switched protagonist gender because he didn't find a physically strong female character believable, as well as the implication that he felt a female character needed to wear a skirt (at least in his game).

sex·ism
/ˈsekˌsizəm/
Noun
Prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex.

ICO was about leading a defenseless female

Yes, but she wasn't defenseless because of being female. As I've said, the only other real character (

Spoiler

the Dark Queen

) is extremely powerful. The gender of Yorda suits the fact that

Spoiler

the Dark Queen wants to posses Yorda's body

. So sure, Yorda could be a defenseless male, and the

Spoiler

Dark Queen could be the Dark King

, resulting in an all male cast. Or perhaps

Spoiler

the Dark King could posses a female body to prove how ... oh wait, female body possesion isn't allowed.

SotC had a male composer because Ueda felt that one was needed to appeal to men (thanks to Aeana for pointing that out)

Flawed logic does not result in sexism. If anything, males are being undermined, with the assumption that a male can only appreciate music made by another male.

The Last Guardian switched protagonist gender because he didn't find a physically strong female character believable, as well as the implication that he felt a female character needed to wear a skirt (at least in his game)

Characteristically, males are portrayed as the stronger gender. Now, it isn't clear what this physical strength needed to be, but if it is tossing, lifting and pulling things, I can see why he made that choice. He isn't saying that women can't do it, just that it is less believable that a male character doing it. And, that is ... simply the truth. You would have to be biased to deny it. In the elevated fantasy that The Last Guardian is, perhaps Ueda simply didn't want to have to justify the strength of a female protagonist, with a montage of her arm-wrestling males. Again, it is a trope, but the opposite would have required justification (at least from Ueda's point of view). Perhaps also the skirt comment was targeted at the fact that, as a young age (as The Last Guardian's main character is), the only way to distinguish between genders without exposition would be a piece of feminine clothing, such as a skirt.

 

[Rebochan]

Free speech, how does it work? Or does that not apply here because this is a funded series?

I'm sorry, I wasn't aware you were banned from discussing the video in other places on the internet, such as right here on GAF.

Free Speech doesn't mean you're required to give someone a platform on your own time.

 

[hachi]

?

 

[Mesoian]

So was the trigger warning warranted?

Probably. I can imagine that seeing a lot of those moments out of context could get people who have been victims of violence in the past worked up and upset. Better to have it than not. Like I said, I was expecting her to really dig into Shadows of the Damned, which I thought was the most gruesome example of violence against women in video games. But she doesn't go into that game beyond it's plot.

 

[Zoe]

They just removed the video as I was about to watch it.

 

[NotLiquid]

ICO is more of a deconstruction of damsel in distress plots if you ask me. The protagonist seems to believe it's in their own mutual interest to escape but when it comes to Yorda you're left to your own interpretation whether she truly feels like she has to escape or whether it doesn't matter for her. The bond forms out of that premise, and the reason she's powerless is because of her mother harvesting Yorda's strength. In the end it's proven that Yorda is pretty almighty all things considered and she's the one who saves the protagonist from his certain demise. It's a story less about saving the damsel and more about sticking your nose into where it doesn't belong, and with that bringing consequences with bigger ramifications than oneself. You think you are the center of the story, but you aren't.

Sure, you might say scrape for undertones of sexist storytelling here but I don't see how that's harmful. Despite with what mindset one may have entered the game with, you're almost certain to leave it with a different one, one where saving someone has more to do with that you actually care about them, not because you see them as a trophy. I wouldn't say that's harmful storytelling. Ueda clearly had a vision for a subtle story and it's executed rather well.

 

[MormaPope]

But the gruesome death of women for shock value is especially prevalent in modern gaming.

Once again, nope. Character death in general is used to shock the player, it is not gender dependent.

And I love how she uses Max Payne 1 as one of her tropes. Max Payne's introduction is supposed to be eerie and disturbing, it's been a scary idea or thought for almost a decade now. Coming home and insane junkies murdering your family, including your baby daughter, laying dead with a bullet inside of her in a tipped crib, isn't male empowerment.

The player doesn't even feel entitled to get revenge, Max does. We've known Max for about 3 minutes when this event occurs. The fact that she thinks the developers thought the intro was a great way to instill motive for revenge for the player is wrong, the intro makes the player feel shocked and off put by what just occurred.

Better yet, she doesn't explain who the main villain in Max Payne 1 is, and their importance. Spoilers below.

Spoiler

Nicole Horne, a powerful and corrupt woman, is the one that got the junkies to kill Max's family. Female women in gaming is usually a witch/monster/sorceress or some sexed up double agent who betrays the main character towards the end of the game.

Nicole Horne is a middle aged CEO who green lit a military program. That's pretty intricate and well thought, most female villains are the most unrealistic character types ever.

 

[Riposte]

Someone reported it bwahaha fucking internet.

 

[Diffense]

Tropes versus men in video games:

Risking their lives to save a woman.

 

[Takuya]

Did Youtube remove the video? I can't seem to access it.

She's probably editing it to remove her sexist comments on Ico.

 

[notworksafe]

Did she get tagged on copyright? The monetization of game content police strike again!

 

[Not Spaceghost]

This video has been removed because its content violated YouTube's Terms of Service.

Sorry about that.

Ummmmm sure okay I'll just check later.

 

[Platy]

As always .. the full transcript is here

I kinda don't have much time ... so if anyone want, they can make a spoiler free version of the video in text form easily just with spoiler tags

All this video really involves is her throwing clip after clip at you with no real discussion on what the clip actually entails in the context of the game.

This series would be far more successful if she focused on a few games in particular and links them back to the problem with the industry as a whole.

Let she answer your question :

Of course, if you look at any of these games in isolation, you will be able to find incidental narrative circumstances that can be used to explain away the inclusion of violence against women as a plot device. But just because a particular event might “makes sense” within the internal logic of a fictional narrative – that doesn’t, in and of itself justify its use. Games don’t exist in a vacuum and therefore can’t be divorced from the larger cultural context of the real world.

It’s especially troubling in-light of the serious real life epidemic of violence against women facing the female population on this planet. Every 9 seconds a woman is assaulted or beaten in the United States and on average more than three women are murdered by their boyfriends husbands, or ex-partners every single day. Research consistently shows that people of all genders tend to buy into the myth that women are the ones to blame for the violence men perpetrate against them. In the same vein, abusive men consistently state that their female targets “deserved it”, “wanted it” or were “asking for it”,

Given the reality of that larger cultural context, it should go without saying that it’s dangerously irresponsible to be creating games in which players are encouraged and even required to perform violence against women in order to “save them”.

Even though most of the games we’re talking about don’t explicitly condone violence against women, nevertheless they trivialize and exploit female suffering as a way to ratchet up the emotional or sexual stakes for the player.

Despite these troubling implications, game creators aren’t necessarily all sitting around twirling their nefarious looking mustaches while consciously trying to figure out how to best misrepresent women as part of some grand conspiracy.

Most probably just haven’t given much thought to the underlying messages their games are sending and in many cases developers have backed themselves into a corner with their own game mechanics. When violence is the primary gameplay mechanic and therefore the primary way that the player engages with the game-world it severely limits the options for problem solving. The player is then forced to use violence to deal with almost all situations because its the only meaningful mechanic available — even if that means beating up or killing the women they are meant to love or care about.

One of the really insidious things about systemic & institutional sexism is that most often regressive attitudes and harmful gender stereotypes are perpetuated and maintained unintentionally.