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US Soccer Referee Dies After Punch

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Involuntary manslaughter is the unlawful killing of another human being without intent. The absence of the intent element is the essential difference between voluntary and involuntary manslaughter. Also in most states, involuntary manslaughter does not result from a heat of passion but from an improper use of reasonable care or skill while in the commission of a lawful act or while in the commission of an unlawful act not amounting to a felony.

Generally there are two types of involuntary manslaughter: (1) criminal-negligence manslaughter; and (2) unlawful-act manslaughter. The first occurs when death results from a high degree of Negligence or recklessness, and the second occurs when death is caused by one who commits or attempts to commit an unlawful act, usually a misdemeanor.

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Negligent homicide is a Class E felony, but involuntary manslaughter due to recklessness is a Class C felony. Depending on your criminal record, you can get 1.4 to 4 years for the Class E crime, or 0 to 15 years for the Class C.

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/manslaughter
 

ShinNL

Member
Well I'm happy for you so far. Doesn't change the fact that something could happen tomorrow that tips you in the wrong direction. This kid may never have punched anyone before in his life or he could have had a temper threshold of 0. Sometimes, the right set of circumstances mixed with the general attitude of the day can cause a punch to be thrown. It's an emotional reaction and can happen without thinking.
^

picard_WTF_is_this_shit-s300x266-70964-580.jpg


I see you're attempting to create perspective but man.... some people just take it too far.
 
When they kill someone? Never?

Most of them don't unless it was horrific. It's not considered murder. It's vehicular manslaughter. Many people are out of prison in less than 10 years and driving drunk is honestly much stupider than throwing a punch (something many of us have done before).
 

Sorian

Banned
Just because you believe it could happen to anyone doesn't mean this kid doesn't deserve a very serious punishment. Hell, anyone can drive drunk and kill someone. Drunk people tend to have poor decision making skills. Should we be more understanding of them?

He doesn't deserve a very serious punishment, he deserves a moderate one. I believe most state laws would put him at less than 10 years with further reductions for good behavior and the like. Maybe to you that seems serious and we are just arguing for no reason or maybe you actually think he should be in jail for 25 years+, I don't know but what I do know is that this is a manslaughter charge or accidental homicide by assult charge, nothing more.
 
By throwing that punch, he intended to do something dangerous which could result in death, so the kid is fully responsible for what happened.

No one is saying that he isn't responsible. We just think life without parole is a bit excessive. It's a clear case of manslaughter. No DA will try to go for more than that and no judge will go for more than a few years and will probably give the kid probation.
 

Yaboosh

Super Sleuth
Most of them don't unless it was horrific. It's not considered murder. It's vehicular manslaughter.


I know, but you are drawing a silly line. I think 15 years in prison is a pretty serious punishment. So is 10. I am not a judge or a prosecutor. I don't know how long this kid will get if convicted. I just know he deserves a serious punishment for killing this man.
 

akira28

Member
Geez, I feel like so many people in here are acting like saints who have never lost their temper when I highly doubt that is true. I don't condone violence but we are human. These things happen, its a shame someone died and there should be punishment, of course, but all of these "lololol make an example out of this little shit! jail forever!" need to chill out. I can only hope for you that you never find yourself in a similar situation because it can happen to anyone.

the fuck is this? This guy punched and killed the referee of his sports game. That isn't like taking a swing at the guy who shoved you in a bar. This is fucking sociopathic behavior, and your response is "oh, you act like you've never hit anyone before"?

He does need to be made into an example. He doesn't deserve unjust punishment, but he definitely deserves punishment, and fucking therapy. And his example needs to be spread around. I'm completely fine with him being the cautionary tale.
 
I know, but you are drawing a silly line. I think 15 years in prison is a pretty serious punishment. So is 10. I am not a judge or a prosecutor. I don't know how long this kid will get if convicted. I just know he deserves a serious punishment for killing this man.

I don't completely disagree with that. The arguments I arguing against are the people who legitimately think he should be in prison until he is an old man.
 
No one is saying that he isn't responsible. We just think life without parole is a bit excessive. It's a clear case of manslaughter. No DA will try to go for more than that and no judge will go for more than a few years and will probably give the kid probation.
Then what do you call punching the man dead?
 

syllogism

Member
By throwing that punch, he intended to do something dangerous which could result in death, so the kid is fully responsible for what happened.
The important thing is to determine what 'dangerous' means; the actual level of risk his act exposed the other person to. Anything can result in death.
 

this_guy

Member
I'm not talking about what he can be charged with, but what he should be. .

Who are you to decide this for society? He killed someone. He went out of his way to throw a punch at someone, and that person died. Maybe he didn't have intent to kill, but he did intend to cause harm.
 

Sorian

Banned
^


I see you're attempting to create perspective but man.... some people just take it too far.

This post confuses me. Did I take it too far? If thats really what you are trying to say that I don't know how I took it too far. It seems to me that plenty of people on GAF want to pretend they are an expert on this but then they just say they want to throw this kid away forever. I'm just pointing out that he really isn't that dangerous of an element in society. He made a mistake, it happens to the best of us as well. His mistake was just unlucky since it happened to cause a death.
 

akira28

Member
Sorian does this perspective come from anything special? You know of an instance where someone was unjustly punished for their violent actions? Why are you taking up the defense on this?

also, no one is going to "throw him away forever". I'd be surprised if they went more than 10, unless he's got a history.
 

syllogism

Member
Who are you to decide this for society? He killed someone. He went out of his way to throw a punch at someone, and that person died. Maybe he didn't have intent to kill, but he did intend to cause harm.
I'm not deciding anything for the society, this is how the criminal justice system largely works, which is why he should be charged with assault or manslaughter, but the sentence should be closer to the scale of the former
 

Sorian

Banned
Sorian does this perspective come from anything special? You know of an instance where someone was unjustly punished for their violent actions? Why are you taking up the defense on this?

also, no one is going to "throw him away forever". I'd be surprised if they went more than 10, unless he's got a history.

Anything personal? No, nothing comes to mind that I can think of. I'm really only taking up defense on this because the first page was riddled with people wanting to toss him in jail and throw away the key. And now more recently, Computer is still arguing that in the topic. Like I said on the last page, I think, its manslaughter, plain and simple. I think he should be doing 10 years at the most with the opportunity of a lessened sentence with good behavior. I do not think that is a "very serious punishment" like some people are calling for but it does fit with what happened.

Edit: I will also say that, yes, voluntary manslaughter would be the correct charge in most states. Involuntary is usually used for negligence (leaving children in the car, etc.).
 
Constructive manslaughter is also referred to as ‘unlawful act’ manslaughter. It is based on the doctrine of constructive malice, whereby the malicious intent inherent in the commission of a crime is considered to apply to the consequences of that crime. It occurs when someone kills, without intent, in the course of committing an unlawful act. The malice involved in the crime is transferred to the killing, resulting in a charge of manslaughte

Sounds right no?

Involuntary Manslauger is defined as being caused by someone's carelessness, and the accused didn't have an intent.

So is my understanding wrong here that there only has to be intent one crime (assault) that leads to murder? Either way the kid is probably going to plead down to somethign like this as he is not getting charged with murder no matter how much people want that.
 

Yaboosh

Super Sleuth
Did you choose to drink and are or should be aware of the consequences of drinking?


Did he choose to punch and was he or should he be aware of the consequences of punching?

What the kid did is equivalent to driving drunk and killing someone. But people in this thread seem to think what happened was less serious. That is an assumption on my part, so if people arguing for just a few years for the kid would argue the same for a drunk driver, I have no point.
 

akira28

Member
Anything personal? No, nothing comes to mind that I can think of. I'm really only taking up defense on this because the first page was riddled with people wanting to toss him in jail and throw away the key. And now more recently, Computer is still arguing that in the topic. Like I said on the last page, I think, its manslaughter, plain and simple. I think he should be doing 10 years at the most with the opportunity of a lessened sentence with good behavior. I do not think that is a "very serious punishment" like some people are calling for but it does fit with what happened.

well you know knee-jerk GAF is gonna do what they do. He's not going to get life in prison, so you're defending an unnecessary point. I wouldn't even try to convince them out of it, really. Manslaughter or Murder 2/non-maximum sentence, because he's young and it was an arguably excitable scenario.
 

Sorian

Banned
Sorry, Internet Perry Masons, i should have said you can get convicted of murder 2 for a punch.

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/...cle_636cb831-f292-5238-b70d-5e523205ff1f.html

Also, if you read the post, you find a couple key differences. There was no "heat of the moment" in that case, the assault was planned and calculated. The person to be assaulted was random but the act itself was there. It also sounds like there was follow-up, he didn't just punch the guy and ran off or started to cool down. He punched the guy to the ground then got on the ground and went for round 2 with him. You're comparing apples and oranges.
 
Did he choose to punch and was he or should he be aware of the consequences of punching?

What the kid did is equivalent to driving drunk and killing someone. But people in this thread seem to think what happened was less serious. That is an assumption on my part, so if people arguing for just a few years for the kid would argue the same for a drunk driver, I have no point.

There are drunk drivers who get out in a few years on parole. I don't necesarily agree with that sentence though.
 
http://criminal.lawyers.com/Criminal-Law-Basics/Manslaughter-A-Lesser-Crime-than-Murder.html


Voluntary manslaughter is the taking of another life with the intent to kill or cause serious physical injury. This type of manslaughter is very similar to murder. However, the circumstances of the killing may make it a lesser crime than murder. Two common circumstances that may reduce murder to voluntary manslaughter include:

Adequate provocation
Imperfect self-defense



Involuntary Manslaughter
Involuntary manslaughter is the unintentional killing of another person. The death is usually caused by the accused's carelessness.

Involuntary manslaughter is considered a lesser form of manslaughter because of the lack of intent - the accused never meant to kill the victim. So, the punishment is usually not as severe as a sentence for murder or voluntary manslaughter.
 

syllogism

Member
Involuntary Manslauger is defined as being caused by someone's carelessness, and the accused didn't have an intent.

This kid didn't punch the victim on accident-he had an intent to harm.
Involuntary manslaughter for one-punch deaths is very common in the US

See e.g.

http://columbusgeorgialawyer.com/se...of-man-he-struck-in-waffle-house-parking-lot/

Punching someone does not mean you intended to cause serious injury, let alone kill. Indeed, the punch isn't likely to cause serious injury, although that depends on the circumstances.
 

Intent to cause serious physical injury? Ok well I guess we would have to know more about the kid, but is that really the case here? The involuntary description does seem more apt.

Involuntary manslaughter is the unintentional killing of another person. The death is usually caused by the accused's carelessness.

It was a really stupid kid who at least it seems from the story never wanted to causes serious damage to the ref. Otherwise he would have continued attacking.
 
so if i'm walking, and you're in my way, and i push you, and somehow, all the things in the universe seem to connect, and you lose balance, and you fall, and then you hit your head and you die,

I should be tried for 1st degree murder, and be given the chance at the death penalty or life without parole?

Gotcha
This is one of the biggest false equivalencies I've seen on GAF.
 

Ducarmel

Member
Sorry, Internet Perry Masons, i should have said you can get convicted of murder 2 for a punch.

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/...cle_636cb831-f292-5238-b70d-5e523205ff1f.html

If you look up the state of law Missouri for second degree murder you can clearly see why, The incident in the article was a planned with the intent to cause harm lead to the death of the man.

You cant tell me this heat of the moment incident fit!

Did he choose to punch and was he or should he be aware of the consequences of punching?

What the kid did is equivalent to driving drunk and killing someone. But people in this thread seem to think what happened was less serious. That is an assumption on my part, so if people arguing for just a few years for the kid would argue the same for a drunk driver, I have no point.

Choosing to drink is different from throwing a punch in the heat of a moment
 
That's why people are told to think before they punch.

Ok what exactly do you think locking this kid up for 60 yearrs is going to do? I think most people here agree he needs to be punished, but I'm curious why people want this kid in jail the rest of his life when much worse crimes get less.
 

danwarb

Member
Unless the punch was especially powerful, I think the one-punch killer shouldn't be liable for more than an assault. Serious injury isn't foreseeable and death is extremely unlikely. The exact circumstances of course matter, but intent and the likely consequences of the actions should prima facie determine liability.

We shouldn't be punching people in the head if it isn't in self defense. He should be charged with manslaughter, because he's killed someone.

Voluntary manslaughter because he intended to cause harm.
 

Sorian

Banned
That's why people are told to think before they punch.

People are told to do a lot of things during their life time. Sometimes you can't follow all of the advice given to you. I know it may be rough for you to understand but people do have emotions.

Yes it is. But choosing to drive is not.

Choosing to drive is still not the same as throwing a punch. The cases where choosing to drive is a heat of the moment act are much more rare than the cases where choosing to punch is a heat of the moment act.
 
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