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[iQuasarLV]

I think this is a community tag because its asking the community for input on a specific question.

VR enthusiasts, I ask you to chime in with your opinions / knowledge.

VR and MMO. This seems as a no-brainer. However, no one has been able to, thus far, create an MMO world that takes advantage of VR technology. With Oculus Quest 2 at 10 million units and PSVR 2 coming down the road the saturation is there to present a marketed solution.

I do not own a VR headset, and not for lack of interest. Just lack of options. Is there something physically / psychologically / technologically hurdling this exploration of integrating MMO games into a VR infrastructure?

 

[Romulus]

I mean is there a list of competent devs that have actually tried to make an MMO in VR?

 

[AV]

MMOs are designed to be played a lot and while VR is very cool, I don't want to wear that headset for that many hours on end. Shorter experiences you can pick up and drop at your leisure are a much better fit, it's already a pain in the ass when other people have to leave groups in MMOs prematurely, never mind with the added risk of somebody getting a migraine from strapping two screens to their eyeballs for 12 straight hours.

VR is also still super primitive and a (good) MMO requires a lot of content to be added. It's risky enough making VR games let alone one that needs a development budget/timescale to suit an MMO. MMOs themselves are also fragile - piss off the user base and they'll leave (edit: until sunken cost fallacy + Stockholm syndrome kicks in a la WoW). New World had an extremely botched launch and lost 90% of its playerbase, imagine if Amazon had dumped all that money into a VR MMO which had a fraction of the potential market. There'd be about 6 people left playing it.

 

[Bernd Lauert]

MMOs are incredibly expensive to make. VR is still niche. VR is also generally meant to be played in short bursts, while MMOs are kinda the opposite. Then there's this elephant in the room called locomotion.

 

[SlimeGooGoo]

.

 

[cormack12]

Because all the bloggers would commit seppuku

The metaverse has a groping problem already

A woman was sexually harassed on Meta’s VR social media platform. She’s not the first—and won’t be the last.

www.google.com

 

[ManaByte]

I think something like Horizon Worlds on Oculus is how MMOs are going to be done in VR. It's basically going to become the Oasis from Ready Player One.

 

[Kev Kev]

Sorry I’m still laughing at everyone who said VR was a short lived gimmick

 

[Bernd Lauert]

Sorry I’m still laughing at everyone who said VR was a short lived gimmick

It's just like 3D TV bro, what a stupid fad

 

[Stitch]

I think A Township Tale is quite popular

 

[Ammogeddon]

There’s a VR MMO coming out called Zenith. It’s been in closed beta since December. There are a few blogs and Twitch streams on it. Check it out.

 

[Kev Kev]

VR is also generally meant to be played in short bursts

ManaByte said this one time too, but im not sure where thats coming from...? maybe the type of VR where your standing an using motion controls sure. but i put just as long of sessions into sitting with a controller in VR as i do on regular flat screen. maybe thats just me...?

 

[ManaByte]

ManaByte said this one time too, but im not sure where thats coming from...? maybe the type of VR where your standing an using motion controls sure. but i put just as long of sessions into sitting with a controller in VR as i do on regular flat screen. maybe thats just me...?

It's due to the proximity of screens to your eyes.

 

[Taxexemption]

You need to wait a few years IMO. The big hurdle will be cost. The ideal MMO will involve hitboxes reaponsive to your movements and the ability yo run/dodge. To pull that off you need,

a headset
Omnidirectional treadmill
full body tracking.

I'm expecting that even in a few years you are looking at a price tag of about 2k for your system. So, it's gonna be awhile. This tech is still developing and the price tag to do cool stuff with it will need to come out a lot before you have many people willing to shell out the money.

 

[Kev Kev]

You need to wait a few years IMO. The big hurdle will be cost. The ideal MMO will involve hitboxes reaponsive to your movements and the ability yo run/dodge. To pull that off you need,

a headset
Omnidirectional treadmill
full body tracking.

I'm expecting that even in a few years you are looking at a price tag of about 2k for your system. So, it's gonna be awhile. This tech is still developing and the price tag to do cool stuff with it will need yo come out a lot before you have many people willing to shell out the money.

lol who tf wants to do all that? i feel like most people who are going to play VR and keep playing for years to come just want to sit down with a controller. but like i said above, perhaps thats just me.

 

[Captain Toad]

VR is just a gimmick

You're a gimmick.

 

[DarthBuzzer]

MMOs are designed to be played a lot and while VR is very cool, I don't want to wear that headset for that many hours on end. Shorter experiences you can pick up and drop at your leisure are a much better fit, it's already a pain in the ass when other people have to leave groups in MMOs prematurely, never mind with the added risk of somebody getting a migraine from strapping two screens to their eyeballs for 12 straight hours.

VR is also still super primitive and a (good) MMO requires a lot of content to be added. It's risky enough making VR games let alone one that needs a development budget/timescale to suit an MMO. MMOs themselves are also fragile - piss off the user base and they'll leave (edit: until sunken cost fallacy + Stockholm syndrome kicks in a la WoW). New World had an extremely botched launch and lost 90% of its playerbase, imagine if Amazon had dumped all that money into a VR MMO which had a fraction of the potential market. There'd be about 6 people left playing it.

VR is just a gimmick

MMOs will become the MUDs of today where they are played by a very niche community, and VR will take over.

It's the natural progression of the genre.

It is not meant to happen today or even 5 years from now. It's going to be a 2030s thing, and it will happen as the tech gets refined to fix all of your issues.

You are going to be able to wear a VR headset and stay in a VRMMO for 10 hours a day with no eye strain or headaches in 10 years. It will feel more relaxing than a traditional MMO even.

 

[Taxexemption]

lol who tf wants to do all that? i feel like most people who are going to play VR and keep playing for years to come just want to sit down with a controller. but like i said above, perhaps thats just me.

The immersion level is completely different. When you put on a vr headset and you look down at yourself or in a mirror and see the body of the character you are playing its different. Then think about the fact that other people see you differently too.

The experience is appealing to a lot of people. You get exercise, or are at least standing up compared to most conventional gameplay, you can look like anyone, and you can have a far more immersive experience.

If you just have a controller and headset than the only thing that really moves are your head and arms, and they won't move in sync with the rest of your body. Imagine the difference between playing a horror game and running for your life with your actual body vs just pressing forward on the controller. It's a completely different level of experience.

 

[DarthBuzzer]

The hardware is definitely the main bottleneck right now.

• We need the tech to reach a level where it is comfortable for most of the day including optical comfort so your eyes can focus naturally.
• Resolution needs to be at a level equal to the clarity of a 1080p monitor - around 40 pixels per degree.
• Full body tracking, hand tracking, face tracking, and eye tracking all need to be standard done purely by cameras.
• It needs to effortlessly act as a computing platform so you can multi-task in the same way we alt tab today.
• You need high quality mixed reality capabilities so you can easily switch/blend/mix real and virtual so it fits more easily into your home.
• You need an active userbase of 30+ million VR users.

This will all be achieved this decade, but the development time of MMOs is on average 5 years or so.

 

[iQuasarLV]

The hardware is definitely the main bottleneck right now.

• We need the tech to reach a level where it is comfortable for most of the day including optical comfort so your eyes can focus naturally.
• Resolution needs to be at a level equal to the clarity of a 1080p monitor - around 40 pixels per degree.
• Full body tracking, hand tracking, face tracking, and eye tracking all need to be standard done purely by cameras.
• It needs to effortlessly act as a computing platform so you can multi-task in the same way we alt tab today.
• You need high quality mixed reality capabilities so you can easily switch/blend/mix real and virtual so it fits more easily into your home.
• You need an active userbase of 30+ million VR users.

This will all be achieved this decade, but the development time of MMOs is on average 5 years or so.

Thanks for the bullet point breakdown.

 

[Kev Kev]

The immersion level is completely different. When you put on a vr headset and you look down at yourself or in a mirror and see the body of the character you are playing its different. Then think about the fact that other people see you differently too.

The experience is appealing to a lot of people. You get exercise, or are at least standing up compared to most conventional gameplay, you can look like anyone, and you can have a far more immersive experience.

If you just have a controller and headset than the only thing that really moves are your head and arms, and they won't move in sync with the rest of your body. Imagine the difference between playing a horror game and running for your life with your actual body vs just pressing forward on the controller. It's a completely different level of experience.

I agree with you on all of that

But my point is no one is going to do all that stuff, or even consider it really. Even people who play games a lot are just looking for the controller experience, or at the most standing up with motion controllers (which I’m personally not a fan of so far).

VR is doing great with out all that stuff and I don’t think most are going to “wait a few years” before jumping in. In fact the sales are saying very different things; that people love VR and are ready to jump in right now!

It’ll be cool when we have that stuff, and it’s more affordable, no doubt! But wanting to wait until that stuff is available sounds like more of “you” thing.

 

[Techies]

There’s a VR MMO coming out called Zenith. It’s been in closed beta since December. There are a few blogs and Twitch streams on it. Check it out.

Zenith VR might actually become one of the bigger hits on Oculus. I can see it having a big playerbase, but I can also see it being filled up with kids.
The thing about VR is, even if the content kind of runs out, you can still just chill out and chat/engage with people.
In flat games like New World everyone eventually runs around doing their own thing and rarely engage with people over voip.

Just for interest sake, resident evil 4 has 5857 ratings, 3000 reviews on the Quest2 atm.
In November it was 3699 ratings 1700 reviews.


Every month the Quest2 userbase grows. It's up to a point where you could expect a mmo to have fully filled servers if that game is good enough.

 

[Taxexemption]

I agree with you on all of that

But my point is no one is going to do all that stuff, or even consider it really. Even people who play games a lot are just looking for the controller experience, or at the most standing up with motion controllers (which I’m personally not a fan of so far).

VR is doing great with out all that stuff and I don’t think most are going to “wait a few years” before jumping in. In fact the sales are saying very different things; that people love VR and are ready to jump in right now!

It’ll be cool when we have that stuff, and it’s more affordable, no doubt! But wanting to wait until that stuff is available sounds like more of “you” thing.

Plenty of people will do that stuff in a few years. If you do any multiplayer vr stuff you can tell by looking at people what kind of setup they have.

 

[Kev Kev]

Plenty of people will do that stuff in a few years. If you do any multiplayer vr stuff you can tell by looking at people what kind of setup they have.

Yeah dude you’re totally missing my point

 

[DerivedDataCache]

90 fps target
100+ players on a screen + vfx
and not having shit (ps2) graphics

Is kinda hard to do

 

[Wooxsvan]

I need an MMO mouse to play WoW competently. I play MMOs because of their complexity/depth and time-sink. I don't foresee how playing for hours on VR wouldn't be physically taxing nor provide the control complexity needed to even come close to the greatest PC MMOs

 

[Gankthenew]

First, it needs to have a smooth enough network, which I think is at least 5G, but the reality is that the network is not even stable 4G. In addition, I think VR games need to overcome the more serious problems of 3D vertigo and fatigue.
There is a huge difference in the physical condition of the players. Some people have extremely poor dynamic vision, and any game that requires observation and reaction is very difficult for them. Some people have good dynamic vision from childhood exposure to games, but there are a lot of people who have 3D vertigo. But for VR games, there may also be physical stamina to consider. At least for me, it's very easy to sit in front of a computer and play a character for three to five hours of adventure, but for me to play a character that has to run and jump and fight for three to five hours, it's so hard.

 

[Synless]

My dream is to play FFXIV in VR….

 

[RoboFu]

My dream is to play FFXIV in VR….

I couldnt handle it unless they figure out a super warping. Motion in be makes me Uber sick.

 

[Taxexemption]

Yeah dude you’re totally missing my point

As far as I could tell your point is people are not willing to put money or effort into games above what they do now.

 

[daywarf]

First, it needs to have a smooth enough network, which I think is at least 5G, but the reality is that the network is not even stable 4G. In addition, I think VR games need to overcome the more serious problems of 3D vertigo and fatigue.
There is a huge difference in the physical condition of the players. Some people have extremely poor dynamic vision, and any game that requires observation and reaction is very difficult for them. Some people have good dynamic vision from childhood exposure to games, but there are a lot of people who have 3D vertigo. But for VR games, there may also be physical stamina to consider. At least for me, it's very easy to sit in front of a computer and play a character for three to five hours of adventure, but for me to play a character that has to run and jump and fight for three to five hours, it's so hard.

Sounds more like a sport like skiing or surfing than leisure,and that's not a "game" in my eye,maybe I'm too lazy loool

 

[DarthBuzzer]

Sounds more like a sport like skiing or surfing than leisure,and that's not a "game" in my eye,maybe I'm too lazy loool

VRMMOs will be designed as worlds to get lost in. There's no reason why you couldn't do 30-60 minutes of combat and spend hours resting in a tavern getting drunk, playing cards, fishing, crafting, customizing your house, and sitting next to singing bards in city hubs.

 

[Kerotan]

Gaming

VR is just a gimmick

Gaming is just a gimmick.

 

[dbilyliker]

Sounds more like a sport like skiing or surfing than leisure,and that's not a "game" in my eye,maybe I'm too lazy loool

me too loool ,I think I can't play such a VR game for more than 2 hours ,even I like it

 

[AV]

MMOs will become the MUDs of today where they are played by a very niche community, and VR will take over.

It's the natural progression of the genre.

It is not meant to happen today or even 5 years from now. It's going to be a 2030s thing, and it will happen as the tech gets refined to fix all of your issues.

You are going to be able to wear a VR headset and stay in a VRMMO for 10 hours a day with no eye strain or headaches in 10 years. It will feel more relaxing than a traditional MMO even.

I would even go as far as to say that traditional MMOs are already being replaced with a new style of them in games like Fortnite. After all, why not? Played by millions, with or without your friends, 100 people at a time or whatever it is, and from what I hear there's much more to games like Fortnite than just being the last man standing. It's the new "massively multiplayer" and has something like 10x the daily players of FF14.

And yeah, once it gets to the point of just being able to slip on a regular pair of glasses - which it will - that's when VR is really ready for the big time. Quest 2 is already an enormous leap from the HTC Vive at a fraction of the cost, and that only took a few years.

 

[GHG]

It's due to the proximity of screens to your eyes.

People spend hours on end in VRChat.

And by hours on end I mean whole days.

 

[ManaByte]

People spend hours on end in VRChat.

And by hours on end I mean whole days.

If they want to go blind for having cyber sex with a 60 year old guy with a waifu avatar, that’s on them.

 

[AJUMP23]

VR is just a gimmick

I think you are selling it short. It isn't a gimmick it is a niche market though. It really is a separate platform that has a pretty devoted following, and has proven worth the investment. It has many uses one of which is gaming.

 

[GHG]

If they want to go blind for having cyber sex with a 60 year old guy with a waifu avatar, that’s on them.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

VR certainly gives you that feeling of seeing 3D gameplay for the first time.

However, unlike the jump from 2D to 3D, I don't really see the gameplay additions VR gives us.

The only long lasting advantage I can see is that VR enable a much wider audience to play games.

 

[DarthBuzzer]

VR certainly gives you that feeling of seeing 3D gameplay for the first time.

However, unlike the jump from 2D to 3D, I don't really see the gameplay additions VR gives us.

The only long lasting advantage I can see is that VR enable a much wider audience to play games.

The 6DoF controls gives tons of groundbreaking gameplay additions.

Echo VR is a great example as it's a game that could never work on a screen.

 

[SlimeGooGoo]

.

 

[Buggy Loop]

I mean.. we all know what would happen right? Right?

 

[Hari Seldon]

Facebook has something like 10,000 employees working on this right now haha. But it isn't going to be some translation of the ancient tab targeting MMOs of the stoneage, it will be a new thing focused on getting people to communicate (so they can suck out all of your data).

 

[Alexios]

Few devs make good mmos outside VR, even fewer will attempt that in VR. Smaller scale GAAS has been the trend anyway. Whether rpg-style or not, few wanna deal with the possibility of hundreds of players within one instance/area/world, especially if there are action game elements included.


Zenith does look more competent than past efforts like Orbus and Nostos at least, we'll see how it does.