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[Polygonal_Sprite]

There's no way to make shit taste better. Plague tale 2 is everything I hate about modern gaming. I blame sony for this cinematic crap becoming so popular. Thank god bayonetta 3 releases in few days cause I need palate cleanser.

WTF lol? I love Bayonetta but in general terms it's still linear corridors linked by small scale combat arenas linked to story cut scenes. It's not that much different from linear third person action games... like at all. In fact you could easily make the argument Plague Tale and God of War have more variation because of their puzzles and stealth mechanics which Bayonetta doesn't have.

 

[Phil_the_goat]

WTF lol? I love Bayonetta but in general terms it's still linear corridors linked by small scale combat arenas linked to story cut scenes. It's not that much different from linear third person action games... like at all. In fact you could easily make the argument Plague Tale and God of War have more variation because of their puzzles and stealth mechanics which Bayonetta doesn't have.

Bayonetta doesnt need pushing carts and "puzzles" (if you even can call them that, even toddler could solve those) because that game's core gameplay is enganging enough. Everything in plague is so basic and barebones.

 

[Represent.]

As for combat encounters. It doesnt even have to boil down to "Smarter AI", how bout just program some new shit? For example in TLOU Part 1 and Part 2, the last enemy will often beg for their lives.

Instead of tthem always begging for their lives, why cant it be randomly generated to where some of them beg for their lives, some of them try to run away, some of them pretend to surrender then try to kill me anyway.

Imagine you let one run away, and then come across that same guy later on in the game. And this time he has more people with him. You know how sick that would be? Like this is the stuff I wanna see. But its nowhere to be found

 

[Polygonal_Sprite]

Bayonetta doesnt need pushing carts and "puzzles" (if you even can call them that, even toddler could solve those) because that game's core gameplay is enganging enough. Everything in plague is so basic and barebones.

The point still stands that Bayonetta is made up of three main parts - linear corridors, combat areas and cutscenes. The exact same as most third person action games you have such disdain for...

 

[BadBurger]

Make worlds that are fully, realistically navigable and explorable. No invisible barriers. No inexplicable inability to climb, jump over certain objects, or swim. Most structures can be entered. Etc.

Many third person games these days are "open world" or have elements of that genre, but they're really just more open levels that are still constrained in the same ways old traditional level-based games are.

 

[TheInfamousKira]

Haven't read the whole thread, but my take is twofold:

Better integration of story telling in gameplay. This means more than having a shooting sequence and a slow walk exposition sequence instead of a scene. I mean, that's a start, but it's not integrating the two elements so much as it's just creating another barrier between the two.

Also, looser set pieces. In most games, the big exciting stuff is completely scripted. I'm hoping we see more stuff like The Matrix Awakened tech demo. There's a chase sequence, and it's always the same chase sequence, but the car crashes differently each time. Little details like this, but like....fifteen more of them. THAT would make a compelling set piece. Same basic events occur, but every player has a distinct experience.

 

[ACESHIGH]

They need to either:

1 - Become truly cinematic. Embrace fixed camera angles again. Or at least fixed multicamera angles. Your games won't be cinematic enough if you got jimmy_gamerMLG_99 moving the camera with dual analog or mouse.

2 - Put responsive gameplay above and all. Get rid of the OTS cancer camera perspective that has been plaguing games since RE4 became a thing. OTS camera is tailor made for shooting. Every other aspect of a game suffers by comparison.

 

[Husky]

Just do what the non-cinematic games do. Prioritize gameplay. And then like, they can also make it cinematic, sure why not.
A game like LA Noire is defined by its detective gameplay, which also capitalizes on some of the tech which makes it more cinematic, the high fidelity facial animation.
The Last of Us' gameplay debut promised AI enemies who could be intimidated with an empty gun, and who would react if they heard its trigger click. This feature didn't make it to release, but it was one of the main mechanics in another post-apocalyptic game released around the same time, I Am Alive. A matter of priorities maybe. The new MachineGames Wolfenstein titles have some of the most cinematic cinematics I've seen, but also some of the tightest gunplay in like a decade. They did a good job determining when to prioritize gameplay and storytelling. I love The Last of Us, but I think I would've loved it more if they put some more priority into tighter or unexplored gameplay mechanics.

I'm not sure the third-person cinematic genre needs to change, so much as that there just need to be more good ones. I think Remedy Entertainment's always done a great job of blending storytelling (some of the best in gaming), as well as ultra impressive cinematic visuals, with great gameplay and new mechanics. They make great use of physics objects and larger environments to explore, things to make the game a great game, rather than just an interactive movie. Just be more like Remedy and LA Noire lmao

 

[Vexed Dad]

Someone said above:

'The reality is that gaming is maturing as a medium."

I think that's both a true and false statement. For every Plagues Tale, there are hundreds of Them's Fightin' Herds or Skate Birds. And yes, I agree that mechanics and game systems need to evolve or mature or at least have a point of difference between games (so many games feel the same these days). I think that narratives in games are the main issue holding the medium back from feeling genuinely cinematic.

• Where is the game set in a prison dealing with staying alive in that system with all its gang politics and unique RPG possibilities?

• Where is the game about the serial killer who leads a double life with a wife and family who moonlights as a killer? Imagine the balancing act and divergent paths in a game like that.

• Where is the game about the mafia that isn't just a 3rd person action game with a gangster skin (All the Mafia games)? Imagine dealing with morality and family in that setting—the stress of staying alive or going to prison.

Story is lacking in gaming. If the industry wants to be taken seriously, it needs to grow up. We arent all children anymore.

 

[Terenty]

Cinematic 3rd person "games" are a go to for every AAA company out there and will forever be the same, because it's the safest bet for their investment.

It's a proven template for printing money. Nobody wants to evolve anything there, graphics and cinematics are the priority, because let's be honest cool cinematic trailers and graphics sell games to the masses, not mechanics or anything else.

Let's take Arkane's Prey as an example. The game that's is much more complex and gameplay driven than any AAA drivel that will come out in the next 5 years. They couldn't even market it properly, because it's difficult to do without cinematics and cool setpieces.

The reality is the market nowadays is completely different to what it used to be in good ol days. We are dinosaurs here, craving something innovative and unique, the times have changed and we were left behind.

With that being said, Kojima save us! Amen

 

[Phil_the_goat]

The point still stands that Bayonetta is made up of three main parts - linear corridors, combat areas and cutscenes. The exact same as most third person action games you have such disdain for...

If you want to look at it this way then every games is just predefined areas connected to one another by developers. I didnt say I hate linear games. I hate games that are overly cinematic and have nothing to show for when it comes to gameplay mechanics. In plague there are often long "talk and walk" sections. You just have to push stick forward and watch those scripted sequences. Hell, half of the game I've played so far the button for running wasnt even working cause I had to "experience" this snoozefest. Every chapter so far: cinematic -> walk and talk -> basic puzzle like moving cart to get to ledge -> combat arena with uninteresting sling shooting -> cinematic. I'd rather play some arcadey game like bayonetta and string some cool looking combos than watch cinematics or scripted sequences.

 

[TrebleShot]

Interactivity,
Just been playing Black Mesa on Steam Deck, what impresses me is how much you can pick up and throw about, it feels more like a sandbox.

Id love to see 3rd person games be more physics based and interactive, let us pick everything up chuck it about and integrate it into gameplay.

 

[Oof85]

Improve their stories should be number one priority.

We shouldn't have to compromise cause it's a video game.

Hell no.

The more you try to improve the story the more likely it is that the developer will take control away from the players to ensure they experience the story beats.

Thus making the games more linear, more controlled and ultimately for people like me, way less fun.

Games should be measured by interactivity, and hopefully one day soon most developers will remember this and stop chasing moment cinematic game development.

 

[Kupfer]

Make use of physics.

dry wood can burn,
water can extinguish,
fabrics can tear,
grids can be cut,
oil can make surfaces slippery,
thin walls can be broken,
ropes can snap,
ropes can be knotted,
steelbeams can melt,
metal can become weak under the influence of heat,
friction can generate heat,
loops can be knotted,
knifes, scissors, swords and other pointy things can actually stab and penetrate softer materials,
ice can melt or be smashed,
and all this not just where it's needed.

Don't take the player by the hand so much.

Allow the player to make mistakes.

Reward the curiosity of the player.


For the example of the locks, make them as large, varied, and unobtrusive as in real life, and more importantly, make them consistent. If you can unlock or pick one lock, you should be able to unlock or pick all locks, even at the risk of running into a dead end or not being rewarded with highloot behind it.

I know that doesn't make the level and game design any easier, but that's not the point. It's about progress and gameplay-wise we've been stagnating for 15 years.

 

[hussar16]

Get rid of walkie-talkie sections.

Add actual gameplay mechanics that might go beyond the "cover and shoot" or the "hide in tall grass". So tired of those things. Edit: Uncharted 4's grapple hook was imho a step in the right direction.

Imagine a high budget cinematic game that plays like Vanquish. That'd be cool.

I don't think k this is right approach every amount t of extra expodition or content is good. Gameplay doesn't make the game sometimes story is needed. If that wasn't the case I would just reply Mario games all day

 

[Rickyiez]

Dead Rising on Xbox 360 was more dynamic than most of the Third person game nowadays

 

[64bitmodels]

2 - Put responsive gameplay above and all. Get rid of the OTS cancer camera perspective that has been plaguing games since RE4 became a thing. OTS camera is tailor made for shooting. Every other aspect of a game suffers by comparison.

Facts. Why the hell does GOW use OTS when it clearly doesn't need it outside of aiming the axe? couldn't they just spread the camera out like the original games? it's such a stupid thing with a simple fix

 

[ProtoByte]

Someone said above:

'The reality is that gaming is maturing as a medium."

I don't mean "mature" as in, "this is now fit for adults". I mean it in the sense that the medium itself isn't new and unexplored anymore. Most of what can be done has been done to some extent.

I agree with your points about better storytelling, but it's seperate from mine.

I see a lot of people in this thread going "prioritize gameplay". Honestly, what cinematic games have you been playing this last gen? Gameplay in the top end of this type of game is genuinely good. But it can't be open to or accommodate every little thing that might come to the players imagination. I don't know of any games that do do that. It's impossible.

At least Vexed Dad actually likes this type of game. I see a lot of people in this thread commenting who don't, for arbitrary reasons to boot.

 

[Terenty]

I recommend that everybody play Dark Messiah of Might and Magic to experience proper interactivity and adventure and to see how fucking low the game industry has declined . The game from 2006

 

[Calling 911 Melts Beams]

they need to add more characters to spidey-mans 2 such as elsa and their kids

 

[darrylgorn]

They don't.

Play different games.

 

[Games of Today]

Playing a plagues tale is making me realize how stagnant the third person genre is. It’s at the point where the gameplay conventions have become very very stale.

See ledge, see cart.

See painted platform.

See Lock with white flag on it.

And many many more of these over used mechanics.

But how can developers improve the genre beyond just better graphics. A game like TLOU3, hellblade 2, and other AAA third person cinematic games, where can they go from a gameplay standpoint beyond just “better graphics” because from an innovation standpoint the genre hasn’t really taken steps forward since the PS3 360 era.

I think Last of Us 2 factions multiplayer will be stepping stone. There really hasn't been any third person multiplayer game with single player level animations.

 

[Games of Today]

Better AI. TLOU2, for all the problems I had with it, was a step in that direction. They also had the whole "oh no they killed Sarah!" naming of NPCs was such an obvious, incredibly simple yet neat trick that I can't believe it's not more widely used. Basically, more organic feeling experiences.

MW2 2022 has actually directly copied the named NPC aspect. In the stealth mission about a halfway through the game when you kill an enemy and another one discovers their body they say their name.

 

[Kupfer]

Better AI. TLOU2, for all the problems I had with it, was a step in that direction. They also had the whole "oh no they killed Sarah!" naming of NPCs was such an obvious, incredibly simple yet neat trick that I can't believe it's not more widely used. Basically, more organic feeling experiences.

MW2 2022 has actually directly copied the named NPC aspect. In the stealth mission about a halfway through the game when you kill an enemy and another one discovers their body they say their name.

I recently played through F.E.A.R. again and was amazed by the enemy calls and what they shout to me and their colleagues. It was really fun and I had forgotten about it until now. Of course, these are all scripts and not "real" A.I. but the illusion was good enough and more than most games do.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

3rd person cinematic games isn't a genre.

 

[KXVXII9X]

There's no way to make shit taste better. Plague tale 2 is everything I hate about modern gaming. I blame sony for this cinematic crap becoming so popular. Thank god bayonetta 3 releases in few days cause I need palate cleanser.

I'm so confused at people's usage of cinematic and your comment explains why. You bash cinematic games but then go on and praise Bayonetta 3 (which I think looks excellent) which is also pretty cinematic in my opinion, just in a different way.

I would consider stuff like The Last Guardian, Sifu, Detroit Become Human, TLOU Part 2, God of War, Ori, Tales of Arise, Psychonauts 2, Inside, Stray, Bayonetta, Deus Ex HR/MD, and to be cinematic to some degree and they all play different. Even something like Zelda BotW has a cinematic feel to how it is presented.

It may be me being confused, but how are people defining "cinematic?"

 

[Griffon]

Playing a plagues tale is making me realize how stagnant the third person genre is

That's just because Plague Tale is a bad video game.

 

[supernova8]

Just give me a new Yakuza game (not turn-based combat) built in Unreal Engine 5 (or something similarly impressive) with:

1) Much higher fidelity models, textures, lighting
2) Proper physics for everything (not just a tiny minority of objects)
3) the team no longer using PS2-grade NPCs to create crowds
4) Make actual crowds, akin to the large crowds in AssCreed
5) Integrate the police into the game logic (all about organized crime and yet the police is almost never there... weird)
6) Throw Yakuza 7 into the bin, set the bin on fire and throw the bin into a pit of burning magnesium

I mean come on.. if we had a Yakuza game with TLOU2 visuals (even without any new mechanics at all)....

 

[Games of Today]

I recently played through F.E.A.R. again and was amazed by the enemy calls and what they shout to me and their colleagues. It was really fun and I had forgotten about it until now. Of course, these are all scripts and not "real" A.I. but the illusion was good enough and more than most games do.

That's awesome. I've never played FEAR but in my opinion Far Cry 2 and Need for Speed Most Wanted on PS2 also have incredible A.I. probably some of the best. In NFS's case they are just lines of dialogue but it's so convincing that the cops ae after you that it's actually scary.

 

[Markio128]

Something I would like to see is inspired by the Final Fantasy books that I used to read. Imagine a TLOU or Uncharted game where you could choose branching paths that eventually funnelled you to the same end level? Essentially make a play-through 5 hours long, but with plenty of scope for replayability, rather than having a 15-20 hour game. There could be hidden levels and new characters to interact with.

 

[Pejo]

AI to help with character animations. Something where like a punch button doesn't do the same punch every time, but a punch that would be appropriate for that moment. Dynamic blocking and parrying of attacks. Make it so that when you start moving from a standstill, the animation looks natural instead of your legs just warping into position. A natural looking 360 degree spin.

That's what I'm waiting for personally. Character animations have a lot of room to get better, and it seems to be the perfect fit for AI. Then we can eventually cut out mocap costs and the time it takes to do it.

 

[Yoboman]

Stop trying to reinvent the best "genre" of games. If you don't like cinematic games then don't play it. Plenty of us do. They are already getting dumbed down by pandering to people by adding open world and crap like that

Give me linear, story focused and beatable in 12-15 hours with great pacing

 

[Yoboman]

AI to help with character animations. Something where like a punch button doesn't do the same punch every time, but a punch that would be appropriate for that moment. Dynamic blocking and parrying of attacks. Make it so that when you start moving from a standstill, the animation looks natural instead of your legs just warping into position. A natural looking 360 degree spin.

That's what I'm waiting for personally. Character animations have a lot of room to get better, and it seems to be the perfect fit for AI. Then we can eventually cut out mocap costs and the time it takes to do it.

TLOU2 already does this, it's called motion matching

 

[Pejo]

Something I would like to see is inspired by the Final Fantasy books that I used to read. Imagine a TLOU or Uncharted game where you could choose branching paths that eventually funnelled you to the same end level? Essentially make a play-through 5 hours long, but with plenty of scope for replayability, rather than having a 15-20 hour game. There could be hidden levels and new characters to interact with.

That's pretty much the whole point of this game. I realize it's not modern 3D Graphics, but if that's the story style you want, it's there. I am not saying the end result is fantastic, but it's an enjoyable enough game. Hopefully the sequel does it even better.

 

[Markio128]

That's pretty much the whole point of this game. I realize it's not modern 3D Graphics, but if that's the story style you want, it's there. I am not saying the end result is fantastic, but it's an enjoyable enough game. Hopefully the sequel does it even better.

It’s similar to what I’d like to see, but played with the same main character, where you’d decide which levels you’d like to play depending upon the choices you made. I’m thinking more like Starfox 64.

 

[Danjin44]

I like how even after you summon the demon the camera is still on Bayonetta, its nice way of showing the scale the demons.

 

[Pejo]

It’s similar to what I’d like to see, but played with the same main character, where you’d decide which levels you’d like to play depending upon the choices you made. I’m thinking more like Starfox 64.

Oh kinda like Castlevania 3.

I think the issue with games like this lies in wasted resources. It's only advantageous to have multiple paths if you can convince players to do multiple playthroughs. Trophies/Achievements indicate that most players don't finish most games even once. So you spend a bunch of money and development time/resources on content that some players will never see. I think Dark Souls 2 did this well with the added mechanics/mixed enemy and item placement in NG+, but it's a hard sell for AAA games.

 

[Markio128]

Oh kinda like Castlevania 3.

I think the issue with games like this lies in wasted resources. It's only advantageous to have multiple paths if you can convince players to do multiple playthroughs. Trophies/Achievements indicate that most players don't finish most games even once. So you spend a bunch of money and development time/resources on content that some players will never see. I think Dark Souls 2 did this well with the added mechanics/mixed enemy and item placement in NG+, but it's a hard sell for AAA games.

I agree that it would be difficult, but my idea is to have a much shorter game, thus being a far more attractive proposition to replay. It engages gamers more as well if somebody finds a cool new area - similar to how the recent ER has. For example, a new Uncharted game could have the same amount of content, if not a little more than UC4, but you’d have to play it multiple times to see all of the missions.

In fact, a game like Uncharted would be perfect, because you could fly to different places that led to clues to find the final treasure.

 

[Topher]

There's no way to make shit taste better. Plague tale 2 is everything I hate about modern gaming. I blame sony for this cinematic crap becoming so popular. Thank god bayonetta 3 releases in few days cause I need palate cleanser.

Plenty of folks, like myself, like those cinematic games. The key is understanding you are not necessarily going to like every game and others are going to like games you don't.

 

[Keihart]

the core of this is to increase the amount of interactivity with set pieces, meaning, integrate as many core mecanics of the gameplay loop into them.

Naughty Dog had already figured this out during U2 development, it's on some of their slides.
I agree tho