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What's the point of the AO rating when it might as well be marked as 'banned'?

Because 'adults-only' might as well not exist in practical terms.

Since I recently became aware of a certain Japanese game being edited to avoid the AO rating in the States (which shall not be named, because that's really not the point of this topic, and sexualized underaged characters certainly crosses an unambigious line), I've really been thinking about how there's an arbitrary limit to certain kinds of content, both in practice and explicitly, depending on the country and rating system.

The problem with most adults-only ratings for both films and games (the ESRB in particular) is that, generally, retailers/cinemas will not touch works with said ratings with a ten-foot-pole, and console manufacturers won't either (and, if I recall, Steam won't either), and even if you somehow get past that, there's an active stigma, mainly because AO/X ratings are basically associated with porn, and you rarely see such ratings as a result of violence rather than sexual content (which I honestly find completely ridiculous). At this point, the AO rating for the ESRB is effectively a straight-up ban. And don't get me started on actual bans like my own home country's rating system - Australia got an R rating a couple years back and there's still games being refused classification every so often, often for stupid reasons.

And then there's the entirely arbitrary way works can get rated. While looking up the details on the ESRB, I noticed that Ben Kuchera once said that the M rating was far too broad, and to be quite frank, I'd honestly agree. On one end of the scale, there are fairly tame titles such as Halo, which is closer to Star Wars in its violence and general content, but shares the same rating as the GTA series, especially GTAV, which is far more violent (and even has occasional nudity, I swear Trevor's junk is actually visible for a moment in a cutscene), and Mortal Kombat - the latest two games are basically murder porn to excessive degrees. It's bewildering as to why both of these games haven't gotten an AO rating yet. And then there's various regional differences in terms of what is 'acceptable' and what isn't.

It honestly feels like the highest rating in most rating systems is basically, in practice, an entirely arbitrary limit on what content in games are allowed to do. Sure, publishers don't want to be associated with smut (though there are games that are borderline porn anyway, and some games that have outright nudity and are still rated M), but at the same time, as someone who thinks it's somewhat ridiculous that there's an emphasis in society about sex being somehow worse than violence (granted, some regions, such as Europe and Japan, are harder on violence than other countries), if there are desginers who want to push the envelope and actually make a statement about, say, society's aforementioned lopsided priorities, they're virtually incapable of getting exposure on any platform that acutally has an audience, even on PC. While there are standards, such as, say, child porn, which I'm pretty sure everyone agrees on, I feel the AO rating is, in practice, a limitation on what games are allowed to do (unless you're okay with releasing niche games on PC outside of Steam). As long as titles don't cross certain very clear lines, who cares what people watch or play? We already have murder porn in our games, might as well allow actual porn.

So, yeah, why do we even have adults-only ratings when they might as well not exist most of the time, if at all? Rather ridiculous, really.
 
Same reason we have rated X/NC17 movies. There has to be something there just in case it needs to be used. It's just never used because retailers won't carry them but that isn't the esrb's problem.
 

Stitch

Gold Member
Valve actually allowed Hatred to be on Steam and that is AO. I wish they would also allow AO Visual Novels :/
 
I wish they would also allow AO Visual Novels :/

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OmegaDL50

Member
I agree the M rating is slightly broad.

I mean generally when I think of something mature, I am more for the mental maturity angle and not so much the games containing gratuitous and over the top violence riddled with profanity (No More Heroes, House of the Dead Overkill).

Of course I don't mind the occasional over the top violent game (I do have an Mortal Kombat avatar afterall)

In the film industry there is a rating that exists between R and X, which is NC-17. Which basically are No Children under 17 years old

I think this could fix the problem by producing a rating that covers the middle ground that would classify all of the games about blatant violence, gore, and vulgar language, and distinguish them from games that are honestly "Mature" as in mental / emotional maturity.

I mean there is a distinction between a thought provoking game that touches upon some rather delicate issues such as Slavery, Class Warfare and Economic Turmoil (Final Fantasy Tactics), or games that blur the lines between Science and Religion (Xenogears / Xenosaga) both titles rated Teen, but containing far more "mature" specific material than many games that actually do have the "M" rating.
 
You answered your own question. If you want to release a potential AO game you pretty much have to do it on PC.
I know, I'm mainly just pointing out the absurdity of the whole ratings mess and why all the violence/sexuality is dumped into the M rating when the worst of it really should go into AO.

Valve actually allowed Hatred to be on Steam and that is AO. I wish they would also allow AO Visual Novels :/
Ah, I did overlook Hatred. If Gabe is actually serious about a more open Steam marketplace, Valve is gonna have to take the plunge and allow more 'adult' titles to be displayed on Steam, otherwise they will just look hypocritical. Hatred is a literal murder simulator, I refuse to see how explicit sexual stuff is any worse. Well, aside from the worst fetish stuff, but that goes without saying, really.

In the film industry there is a rating that exists between R and X, which is NC-17. Which basically are No Children under 17 years old.
Problem here is, the NC-17 rating is rather close to being in the same boat, an issue highlighted by This Film Is Not Yet Rated, which, among other things, highlights independant films being given a harder time than studio films by the MPAA, and content involving homosexual characters being given a higher rating despite other films with similar content but with straight characters being given a lower rating. Ratings boards in general tend to be arbitrary, really.
 

Big_Al

Unconfirmed Member
As someone from the outside looking in from the UK it's always come across as completely ridiculous to me as well how the AO and NC-17 ratings are not used as they should be or just completely ignored

For example in the UK for films you have ratings from U all the way to 12A, 15 and 18 years old only. For PEGI I believe its 12, 16 and 18 years old.

It just seems to me that M should be the equivalent to a 15 in the UK with the AO being for harsher more violent content when in reality it seems to be anything remotely not for youngsters gets an M. Halo getting rated an M for example is absolutely ridiculous IMO.
 

sn00zer

Member
Same reason we have rated X/NC17 movies. There has to be something there just in case it needs to be used. It's just never used because retailers won't carry them but that isn't the esrb's problem.

Naw NC17 is no longer a death knell like it used to be especially for smaller movies. Mot just not go in for a rating at all if they think itll be an issue.
 

QaaQer

Member
Commercial realities dictate the content of commercial products. For the most part, corporate games and other media have to pass the Walmart test, and most also have to pass the PR of China test now.

For anything interesting, like Lars Von Trier shooting Willem Dafoe's cock, you need to look beyond Walmart/Steam/etc.
 

QaaQer

Member
Naw NC17 is no longer a death knell like it used to be especially for smaller movies. Mot just not go in for a rating at all if they think itll be an issue.

What was the last nc-17 shown at an AMC/Regal/etc theater? Naw, it is just as much of a death sentence as it has always been.
 
What was the last nc-17 shown at an AMC/Regal/etc theater? Naw, it is just as much of a death sentence as it has always been.

Blue Is the Warmest Colour I think? And I'm pretty sure Dafoe's dick in Antichrist was a body double, could be wrong though.

Anyway, there is certainly a market for AO games in America, so it has always seemed weird to me that most platform holders treat them like the plague. Of course there is an issue of using mainstream channels to advertise a game with abhorrent violence or graphic sex, but I mean the "Adult's Only" section of video stores used to be a thing.

I think before addressing this problem though, American ratings boards need to first look at how it treats sex and violence so differently (for example, fatalities in Mortal Kombat being M, but a vagina is AO). That's a completely different issue though, I guess.
 

PreFire

Member
They should at least sell them at retailers like GameStop, but behind the counter and not publicly displayed. Kind of like tobacco products in NYC (law now requires you to be 21)

People would know by word of mouth.

was manhunt AO? Maybe that's the reason I've never seen it lol
 
What was the last nc-17 shown at an AMC/Regal/etc theater? Naw, it is just as much of a death sentence as it has always been.


Blue is the Warmest Color and Lucky Bastard were the two that I could find and they were from 2013. Most of the times it seems that if you are rated NC-17 you edit the film to bring it down to an R rating. I am sure the same is with the game industry. Also both the game and movie industry edit their content in order to get a PG-13 or T rating so they can reach a wider audience. The movie industry then gets around this censorship by releasing unrated versions. Are there unrated games?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NC-17_rated_films
 
I think before addressing this problem though, American ratings boards need to first look at how it treats sex and violence so differently (for example, fatalities in Mortal Kombat being M, but a vagina is AO). That's a completely different issue though, I guess.
Agreed. MKX's fatalities are horrifying. Granted, this is down to taste, I suppose, but I really don't get how anyone can find them entertaining.

Blue is the Warmest Color and Lucky Bastard were the two that I could find and they were from 2013. Most of the times it seems that if you are rated NC-17 you edit the film to bring it down to an R rating. I am sure the same is with the game industry. Also both the game and movie industry edit their content in order to get a PG-13 or T rating so they can reach a wider audience. The movie industry then gets around this censorship by releasing unrated versions. Are there unrated games?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NC-17_rated_films
I'm pretty sure unrated games aren't a thing, and I'm also pretty sure in some countries you absolutely have to have a rating anyway, unfortunately, like Australia, which has its ratings board being a government agency, hence why it took so long for the R18+ rating for games to be implemented.
 

scitek

Member
I feel ambient occlusion should definitely be rated, complete with HBAO+ supported games being specified on the store page.
 
As someone from the outside looking in from the UK it's always come across as completely ridiculous to me as well how the AO and NC-17 ratings are not used as they should be or just completely ignored

For example in the UK for films you have ratings from U all the way to 12A, 15 and 18 years old only. For PEGI I believe its 12, 16 and 18 years old.

It just seems to me that M should be the equivalent to a 15 in the UK with the AO being for harsher more violent content when in reality it seems to be anything remotely not for youngsters gets an M. Halo getting rated an M for example is absolutely ridiculous IMO.

Its all horses for courses.
Dead or Alive X2 was rated a 12 in Europe, while it was an M in the US.
Different places just have different values on things.
 

PsionBolt

Member
I would definitely like to see the AO rating used more often than it is. Plenty of games that are CERO Z or PEGI 18+ somehow get away with an ESRB M rating. Titles like Mortal Kombat, GTA, or God of War deserve to have the most restrictive rating, no matter where they're released.
 

Somnid

Member
It's a soft self-imposed ban. It's really not the ESRB's problem, they need to categorize content, the publisher can figure out how to release it.
 
I do wonder why MKX didn't have to be toned down but in terms of GTAV needing to be AO cus you see peen, I wholeheartedly disagree because there is a difference between natural nudity and sexual nudity, and I would say GTA's sexual nudity is a bigger problem. It's not like Trevor is walking around swinging a full mast, it's just a penis.
 

cj_iwakura

Member
Valve actually allowed Hatred to be on Steam and that is AO. I wish they would also allow AO Visual Novels :/

Most VNs that would get that rating, i.e. a lot of JAST USA's stuff, aren't even submitted to the ESRB. They know they'll get an AO, so much like NC17 stuff, they just slap an 'Adults Only" banner on it, only sell it through their site, and call it a day.

Personally I can tolerate a ton of violence/gore/profanity but find extreme sexual content unsettling, so I don't mind the practice, but I find it interesting how Europe is completely the opposite. Heck, Extras is a televised show and they're very candid about the subject(and the act).
 

Fhtagn

Member
Always thought it was absolutely ridiculous that Shinobi (PS2) and Manhunt were the same rating. Manhunt is a fine game but if ever an AO rating was deserved by a mainstream game in the PS2 era it was that one. Makes a mockery of the rating system to lump fantasy violence in with torture/murder.

It's hard to believe MKX is rated Mature. Does the same happen with Gore movies?

In the 80-90s, the MPAA was very strict about violence in horror films and censored a lot of films; they are much much more lenient these days, as is mainstream TV. In film though, there is a market and distribution channels for unrated material, where as in games unrated games are all indie.
 

cj_iwakura

Member
It's hard to believe MKX is rated Mature. Does the same happen with Gore movies?

All the Saw films were R, and there is some horrific stuff in there. You can get away with a LOT of gore under an R. Even PG-13/TV-14 allows a lot. You can shoot someone in the head as long as there isn't gore and it's okay.

One f-bomb is usually tolerated in a PG-13. I don't think the ESRB allows that, but you can say just about anything else in a T game.
 

Dryk

Member
Because it's market imposed, America gets to ban Sick Filth™ AND maintain Freedom™, which you can't really do with an actual ban
 

muteki

Member
It puts the illness of enforcing the ban (and it is most certainly a ban) on retailers and not the regulators. Retailers are happy to do this because Family Values™, and regulators are happy to pass the buck and not deal with questions of free speech/censorship.
 

Cleve

Member
Can such games be "unrated" and still sold as digital downloads? Why get rated at all?

In the case of pc games, sure. The problem with this particular game is that it's on vita so while they might be able to do a limited physical unrated edition like RCR is doing, they wouldn't be able to sell on the playstation store where I'd imagine a ton of sales come from, particularly on a device like Vita. If sony would even give them the go ahead in the US. I imagine the fear of media backlash is too high.

"portable pornography on your child's toy? why is sony trying to corrupt america? this and more things to be afraid of, tonight at 11"
 

Laconic

Banned
The absurdity of the gore and violence found in Western games is appalling, quite frankly. I find things like Mortal Kombat fatalities involving pulling a person apart like a chicken's wishbone, spilling innards out on the ground, or pulling their intestines out through their mouths, to be demented appeals to the more than mildly psychotic segment of society. They are trash.

Those get an M, in theory because normal adults can handle them.

The... Eastern? games that get AO cater to something other than normal adults, and really have no place, well, anywhere. There exists around the world a somewhat broader spectrum of what is sexually acceptable than what the U.S. deems proper, to be sure. But pedophilia is universally abhorred and despised by all functional societies. And with good reason. It is sick, literally. Even places where, for whatever irrational "cultural" excuse, it exists with a degree of tolerance, it is shunned by the overwhelming, mentally well majority.

I personally find both revolting, and antithetical to my wants in gaming.

I wouldn't miss either.

A wise man once said, "I can't define [obscenity], but I know it when I see it."

In these cases, I respectfully disagree.

Torture porn is definitely obscene.

And creating imagery of pedophilia to sell to the mentally ill who desire such, is damned obscene.

Nobody needs to see either, to realize this.
 
"portable pornography on your child's toy? why is sony trying to corrupt america? this and more things to be afraid of, tonight at 11"

Funny, but also sad. A VN sold on PSN is the devil's work, even though every smartphone in America has titties on it for free.

But pedophilia is universally abhorred and despised by all functional societies. And with good reason. It is sick, literally. Even places where, for whatever irrational "cultural" excuse, it exists with a degree of tolerance, it is shunned by the overwhelming, mentally well majority.
...

And creating imagery of pedophilia to sell to the mentally ill who desire such, is damned obscene.

I really don't want to get into a thing here, but pedophilia isn't a "mental illness." Mental illnesses can be treated. Pedophilia is a sexual orientation. Pedophiles often need help in abstaining from desires or in coping with their thoughts, but we need to stop just calling them "demented" and demonizing them. Harming children is a horrifying thing, but this isn't helping. This is the sort of thing that leads to suicide.
 
yeah the AO rating is de facto censorship.

maybe the anti-censorship brigade should protest things like this rather than shitty headstones.
 
What really gets me is how different ratings between countries can be. For example, a lot of SMT & spin-off games are CERO-B (12+) & CERO-C (15+) but are rated M in the US.

I do like that the Japanese system has separate 17+ & 18+ ratings and are not afraid to use both. So something like Dark Souls or Bloodborne gets the 17+ rating while The Evil Within and the GTAs is 18+.
 
I agree the M rating is slightly broad.

I mean generally when I think of something mature, I am more for the mental maturity angle and not so much the games containing gratuitous and over the top violence riddled with profanity (No More Heroes, House of the Dead Overkill).

Of course I don't mind the occasional over the top violent game (I do have an Mortal Kombat avatar afterall)

In the film industry there is a rating that exists between R and X, which is NC-17. Which basically are No Children under 17 years old

I think this could fix the problem by producing a rating that covers the middle ground that would classify all of the games about blatant violence, gore, and vulgar language, and distinguish them from games that are honestly "Mature" as in mental / emotional maturity.

I mean there is a distinction between a thought provoking game that touches upon some rather delicate issues such as Slavery, Class Warfare and Economic Turmoil (Final Fantasy Tactics), or games that blur the lines between Science and Religion (Xenogears / Xenosaga) both titles rated Teen, but containing far more "mature" specific material than many games that actually do have the "M" rating.

Square EA did some magical voodoo I bet to get those games rated T.

Profanity and Gratuitous violence are part of the whole M rating package, so I can see where the ESRB comes from, but there are franchises where I wonder how they received X rating and not Y rating.

The Halo franchise has quite a few titles rated M and the most gratuitous thing about the game is the blood. If there was an option that could turn off blood, would that lower the rating of the game effectively?

Otherwise, I don't recall any dialogue or scenes that were equivalent to a R rated film. That M rating feels too stringent for Halo, while a game like Manhunt wholly deserves the Adults Only rating it received.

Mortal Kombat keeps pushing that upper bounds of the M rating. MKX is gruesome to watch.
 

QaaQer

Member
Blue is the Warmest Color and Lucky Bastard were the two that I could find and they were from 2013. Most of the times it seems that if you are rated NC-17 you edit the film to bring it down to an R rating. I am sure the same is with the game industry. Also both the game and movie industry edit their content in order to get a PG-13 or T rating so they can reach a wider audience. The movie industry then gets around this censorship by releasing unrated versions. Are there unrated games?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NC-17_rated_films

Cheers...glad at least some make it through.

& yeah, I guess it was a stunt dick.
 

ShinMaruku

Member
I know, I'm mainly just pointing out the absurdity of the whole ratings mess and why all the violence/sexuality is dumped into the M rating when the worst of it really should go into AO.
Humans are the masters of absurdity. Sadly society at large is not mature enough to really be trusted to use these rating properly.
 
What really gets me is how different ratings between countries can be. For example, a lot of SMT & spin-off games are CERO-B (12+) & CERO-C (15+) but are rated M in the US.

I do like that the Japanese system has separate 17+ & 18+ ratings and are not afraid to use both.

Pretty sure Mara's design alone is enough to get slapped with an M rating in the US. Big veiny dick and balls with tentacles. The ESRB has no sense of humour. :p
 

Laconic

Banned
Funny, but also sad. A VN sold on PSN is the devil's work, even though every smartphone in America has titties on it for free.



I really don't want to get into a thing here, but pedophilia isn't a "mental illness." Mental illnesses can be treated. Pedophilia is a sexual orientation. Pedophiles often need help in abstaining from desires or in coping with their thoughts, but we need to stop just calling them "demented" and demonizing them. Harming children is a horrifying thing, but this isn't helping. This is the sort of thing that leads to suicide.

It is either a structural or electrochemical aberration of the brain.

Which is to say a mental defect.

It is not demonizing them to call it what it is.
 
What really gets me is how different ratings between countries can be. For example, a lot of SMT & spin-off games are CERO-B (12+) & CERO-C (15+) but are rated M in the US.

I do like that the Japanese system has separate 17+ & 18+ ratings and are not afraid to use both. So something like Dark Souls or Bloodborne gets the 17+ rating while The Evil Within and the GTAs is 18+.

With the Japanese example, the CERO Z rating is effectively equivalent to an ESRB AO in that it brings in a bunch of restrictions to ensure anyone buying the game is not under 18. The big, important difference, however, is that the console manufacturers and Valve allow CERO Z games on their systems, while getting an ESRB AO is an instant certification failure (indeed, an ESRB AO is pretty much the only restriction left on Steam games. However, Hatred may be the first game to defy that restriction, which in an ideal world should be that games who got AOs for sex would be allowed in to Steam. On the one hand, that would mean that Coming Out On Top and Ladykiller in a Bind would be available on Steam, but on the other hentai_on_steam.jpg would become an entirely unironic reality).
 
I've always felt that the word "Mature" was not well-suited to a rating system. The ESRB should have come up with a different word for the "M" rating.
 

rpmurphy

Member
Retail stores won't sell unrated games. Some digital stores will sell unrated games, but missing out on retail sales is a huge problem if you're dealing with a big budget game.
True... you'd think with digital distribution, it would be easier to have a wider audience, but I guess the console makers and distributors in the PC market are holding the policies.
 
Pretty sure Mara's design alone is enough to get slapped with an M rating in the US. Big veiny dick and balls with tentacles. The ESRB has no sense of humour. :p

They might have a sense humor but the moms buying a game with mr. green dicknballs for little Timmy sure as hell don't.

There definitely needs to be more AO games and better ways to distribute them.
 
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