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Will next-next gen consoles use Nvidia instead of AMD?

Hugare

Member
Title is pretty self explanatory

I recently got a new laptop with an RTX 2060 and I was blown away by DLSS

Imagine the next Xbox or PS having a 30% boost in performance compared to its competitor. It's a game changer.

Do you guys think that its being discussed internally at MS and Sony?

Or it would be too much trouble in terms of BC and etc.?
 

Haggard

Member
Doubt it.
Nvidia didn`t even try it with the PS4/X1 gen because the profit margins were too small. Outside of Nintendo which have always sold their hardware with a decent profit I don`t think any console manufacturer can afford to pay Nvidia what they want.
And then there`s the issue that Nvidia is probably not able to offer an x86 SoC and consoles would distance themselves from PCs again. I doubt multiplat developers would like that.
 
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Kuranghi

Gold Member
Don't they already get a sizeable perf boost from CBR? Like similar to 30%?

Obviously the image quality isn't as good but I suppose it depends if general consumers notice the difference between 2160p CB and 2160p DLSS, and therefore whether its worth to change suppliers to get that HW reconstruction.

So they already got that boost when the PS4 Pro came out, using a different (and most would agree poorer) method, but its probably a heck of a lot cheaper as well.
 

Sethbacca

Member
AMD are working on their DLSS equivalent at this point anyway. By the time the next gen comes out they should hopefully be at least where NVidia is now. I think nothing is likely to change purely for compatibility reasons.
 
Never say never. Back in 2013 if you said the successor to Wii U would have an Nvidia SoC you would’ve been laughed out of the room.

And anyway Nvidia will soon ARM. So it’s very likely that at least one next-gen console will have Nvidia IP in some form.
 
We can only dream of.

But nvidia can't do a unified gpu\cpu so...
Why not? The Tegra x1 and k1 were both socs. One used a off the shelf Armv8 and the other uses their custom denver 64bit chip licensing arm instruction set.

Why couldn't they do Tegra but on a large scale with x86, partner with Intel?
Probably more costly then doing arm.
 

GymWolf

Gold Member
Why not? The Tegra x1 and k1 were both socs. One used a off the shelf Armv8 and the other uses their custom denver 64bit chip licensing arm instruction set.

Why couldn't they do Tegra but on a large scale with x86, partner with Intel?
Probably more costly then doing arm.
Don't ask me, this is what the experts in here say everytime someone ask why nvidia doesn't make gpus for consoles.

I guess mobile chipset are easy to make?!
 

Tripolygon

Member
It is possible. ARM CPU cores have proven to be as performant as AMD or Intel CPU cores and more efficient in terms of power draw. With GPUs getting larger and the ever-increasing need and advancement in NN processing, I can easily see Nvidia being very competitive in this space. They would just have to invest heavily in emulation to maintain backward compatibility with current and last-gen software, as Apple has done for the M1 SoC.
 
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Considering AMD's and Nvidia's roadmaps, partnerships and ambitions, I'd be less surprised if Nintendo ditched Nvidia to go with a Samsung SoC with RDNA graphics.
I also wouldn't be surprised if the rumored Switch Pro/2 was canceled or indefinitely postponed due to Nintendo not being able to reach an agreement with Nvidia over an upgraded SoC.


I recently got a new laptop with an RTX 2060 and I was blown away by DLSS
Have you heard of a thing that every modern GPU from every IHV can use called temporal reconstruction?
 

reksveks

Member
I’m more interested to know if anyone will try to manufacture their own in-house chipset ala Apple M1.


Microsoft are looking at designing their own Arm based chips but it's all for server usages at the moment.

On the OP, I think the ARM and Nvidia deal being slowed down is going to make this scenario extremely unlikely. Also it just causes a bunch of issues around BC.
 

ParaSeoul

Member
Two gens going with AMD has worked out well for them,switching now would just cause more problems than its worth. AMD's DLSS alternative will probably get better with the Console makers input.
 

SlimeGooGoo

Party Gooper
Sarcasm? This is now. The future is here Old Man!
Robin Williams What Year Is It GIF
 

McHuj

Member
Doubt it, but don’t be surprised if at least MS has an ARM CPU next time and maybe even an internally developed one at that.
 

BWJinxing

Member
No. Nvidia is a greedy company and they don't have any combo designs worth while.

Semi off topic..

The ARM / Nvidia deal makes sense business wise...

But Nvidia is going to fuck over earth if that deal happend. There is no other company like ARM. You can bet Nvidia will fuck that up. Want out latest ARM design? Must be paired with Nvidia GPU patents, etc.

Not to mention, ARM being in US hands, would hinder some countries. Should the ARM deal happen, I think RISC would be the next big thing, as nothing else is as flexible and affordable.

While Nvidia could make a CPU / GPU combo worthwhile .. there is nothing stopping them now from doing it.
 

Tegra development ended in 2017 with Parker / Tegra 2.
What came afterward that were Xavier, Odin and Atlan, all of which being pretty large chips on latest-gen and expensive fab processes with tons of I/O and ML hardware for automotive, that consume between 10 and 50W with a 256bit RAM width. Neither of those chips can fit into a handheld console.


No. Nvidia is a greedy company and they don't have any combo designs worth while.

Semi off topic..

The ARM / Nvidia deal makes sense business wise...

But Nvidia is going to fuck over earth if that deal happend. There is no other company like ARM. You can bet Nvidia will fuck that up. Want out latest ARM design? Must be paired with Nvidia GPU patents, etc.

Not to mention, ARM being in US hands, would hinder some countries. Should the ARM deal happen, I think RISC would be the next big thing, as nothing else is as flexible and affordable.

While Nvidia could make a CPU / GPU combo worthwhile .. there is nothing stopping them now from doing it.

It doesn't look like the ARM acquisition is going to happen.
 
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Hugare

Member
Have you heard of a thing that every modern GPU from every IHV can use called temporal reconstruction?
Yes

But has any other option offered such good results as DLSS? Sometimes being even better than native res. With performance gains this big?

I'm pretty sure that AMD would also like to know about this other just as good sollution that you know of
 
Tegra development ended in 2017 with Parker / Tegra 2.
What came afterward that were Xavier, Odin and Atlan, all of which being pretty large chips on latest-gen and expensive fab processes with tons of I/O and ML hardware for automotive, that consume between 10 and 50W with a 256bit RAM width. Neither of those chips can fit into a handheld console.
Regardless, they make SoCs. Doesn't have to fit in a handheld.
 
But has any other option offered such good results as DLSS? Sometimes being even better than native res. With performance gains this big?

Yes. Compare 720p TSR (top - second from left) to 1080p native (bottom right).





You can get UE5's Valley of the Ancient demo and test it yourself. It's free on the Epic Games Store.
Temporal reconstruction gets excellent results with a quarter of the native resolution, and unlike DLSS it'll work on every GPU with DX11 compute shaders. Consoles included.



You can also check out NXGamer's comments on temporal reconstruction in the PS5 version of CoD Vanguard.




We really don't need dedicated tensor cores for decent reconstruction, despite what some media outlets will lead you to believe.
 
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Flutta

My tears. Exclusive to gamepass. Forever.
If the price is right. Even then i don’t think NVIDIA cares about consoles to even care at this point.
 

Saucy Papi

Member
Title is pretty self explanatory

I recently got a new laptop with an RTX 2060 and I was blown away by DLSS

Imagine the next Xbox or PS having a 30% boost in performance compared to its competitor. It's a game changer.

Do you guys think that its being discussed internally at MS and Sony?

Or it would be too much trouble in terms of BC and etc.?
AMD has their own competitor called FSR which I believe was coming to consoles eventually.
 

Hugare

Member
Yes. Compare 720p TSR (top - second from left) to 1080p native (bottom right).





You can get UE5's Valley of the Ancient demo and test it yourself. It's free on the Epic Games Store.
Temporal reconstruction gets excellent results with a quarter of the native resolution, and unlike DLSS it'll work on every GPU with DX11 compute shaders. Consoles included.



You can also check out NXGamer's comments on temporal reconstruction in the PS5 version of CoD Vanguard.




We really don't need dedicated tensor cores for decent reconstruction, despite what some media outlets will lead you to believe.
I dont doubt that AMD and others will be able to achieve what DLSS does some time from now

But your example is from a tech demo.

What we have on the market today cant hold a candle (most of the time) to what DLSS is doing in terms of performance/visuals

I'm working right now, but check out DF's videos on Death Stranding DLSS / Checkerboarding comparisons and DLSS 2.2
 
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No way. Nvidia is making billions from PC gamers blowing €500+ on GPUs. Why would they even get into the console market?

Volumes.

How many of those $500+ GPUs will they sell? A few hundred thousand? And especially now with the chip shortage limiting ingot and substrate availability.

With AMD nipping at their heels in the desktop PC market and potentially eating into their market share, NVidia may want to get a console contract because the high volumes pushes them to the front of the line with the chip fabs like TSMC on their state of the art process nodes.

Consoles are largely why AMD gets first dibs on newer process nodes for high-performance computing parts at TSMC than even NVidia, despite Nvidia making bigger profits. It's because TSMC doesn't sell individual chips, they sell silicon wafers, so volumes are everything when it comes to securing chip fab supply priority.
 

Drew1440

Member
Not happening anytime soon. Nvidia doesn't make CPUs.
They have a custom ARM cores known as Denver and Carmel, which have been used in their shield tablet and their automotive chipset. I'd say it's more realistic nvidia would build their own console (the Shield kind of is, but using the Google Play ecosystem)

Sony will stay with AMD and x64, Microsoft possibly could given how adept their backwards compatible technology is.
Don't forget that both manufactures started the eighth generation without any backward compatibility.
 

Codes 208

Member
Didnt nvidia screw over ms on the og xbox in terms of production price? (Hence why they went with powerpc for the 360 and amd for xbox one/series)

on top of that they definitely screwed over sony with the cell processor with how proprietary it was and how complicated game development it became.
 
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Kenpachii

Member
If they didn't do it for the PS5/xbox now, they won't do it next gen. AMD will have a answer towards DLSS most likely and intel pushing probably also DLSS forwards already next year. In short no point.
 
What we have on the market today cant hold a candle (most of the time) to what DLSS is doing in terms of performance/visuals

I'm working right now, but check out DF's videos on Death Stranding DLSS / Checkerboarding comparisons and DLSS 2.2
There's a live example right there in my post that you quoted, in CoD Vanguard that is shipping right now.
Insomniac has been using and evolving temporal reconstruction for years on their engine, to the point where pixel counters are having a hard time figuring out Rift Apart's internal resolution.

DLSS looks better than checkerboarding, but that's a hardware accelerated feature from 2016 made for the PS4 Pro. They're not contemporary so that comparison is moot.

Pretty much all major engines have already implemented or will be implementing temporal reconstruction in the near future.
 
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