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[sonycowboy]

I would think that cartridges inherently allowed for higher and higher capacity as time went on. That is, SNES carts had more space available than NES carts. Atari 5200 had more capacity than the 2600.

Of course, Sony is following the progression of optical formats in lock step, CD -> DVD -> Blu-Ray and clearly couldn't launch any sooner than early 2006 and still include a Blu-Ray drive.

I suppose Sega CD -> Saturn might qualify, but Sega CD was really just an extension of the Genesis, which started with cartridges. Are there any other examples?

Clearly it's a factor of optical storage, which has only had two mass market formats, CD's & DVD's and the next level isnt' ready yet, so they really didn't have any choice once they made the decision to launch in 2005.

Just thought it was interesting.

 

[Nerevar]

I don't think the Atari Jaguar cartridges were any bigger.

But they were 64-bit!

 

[DarienA]

Here's a side question... will the lack of an optical storage format upgrade allow MS to launch under $299 in the US?

 

[akascream]

Is the PS3 increasing media storage capacity?

 

[Bebpo]

Is the PS3 increasing media storage capacity?

....

 

[SantaC]

Is the PS3 increasing media storage capacity?

You are kidding right...


edit: yeah that's right, nvm

 

[Bebpo]

edit: btw isn't xbox360 planning to use dual layer?( 9 gig) or are they using that in xbox already.

Already using that in Xbox and PS2

 

[Mrbob]

Here's a side question... will the lack of an optical storage format upgrade allow MS to launch under $299 in the US?

I doubt it, considering the X360 has a harddrive and a headset bundled in every box. Considering what is included with X360, $299 is a perfect launch price point. No need to go to $249. Makes your console look weak.

 

[AtomicShroom]

Is the PS3 increasing media storage capacity?

From 9GB to around 30GB? I'd say yes.

 

[sonycowboy]

Here's a side question... will the lack of an optical storage format upgrade allow MS to launch under $299 in the US?

Why would they? They'll sell out this holiday @ $299 and then some. They'd probably sell out @$349 as well. No reason to leave money on the table.

From 9GB to around 30GB? I'd say yes.

Make that 50GB

 

[Barnimal]

oh come on. revolution is using DVDs. this thread is stupid. its not about increasing the media but what the rest of the market is using. 8 bit everyone used carts. 16 bit...bigger carts. 32 bit CDs. N64 was the odd man out so oh well. following gen, still discs. DC was GD roms, PS2 dvd, xbox DVD, GC, discs. all were fine. If anything next gen sonys the oddball. yes they'll have the most storage but at what cost? What happens if bluray is a bust? what keeps both MS and Nintendo from releasing multi disc games or coming up with better compression techniques?

 

[jarrod]

Well, traditional silicon cart formats are always increasing, regardless of new platforms. That's sort of an unfair comparison to make, since they're limited only by manufacturing cost and time really.

You'd have to look at "set" formats like optical media. Then you'd have (for companies with more than one platform using optical media)...


NEC
-PC Engine Super CD-ROM (CD) 650 MB max
-PC-FX (CD) 650 MB max

Sega
-Mega CD (CD) 650 MB max
-Sega Saturn (CD) 650 MB max
-Dreamcast (CD/GD) 1.2 GB max

Sony
-PlayStation (CD) 650 MB max
-PlayStation 2 (CD/DVD) 9.7GB max (dual layered)
-PSP (UMD) 1.8 GB max (dual layered)
-PlayStation 3 (CD/DVD/BD) 50 GB max (dual layered)

Nintendo
-GameCube (GOD) 1.56 GB max
-Revolution (GOD/DVD) 9.7 GB max (dual layered)

Microsoft
-Xbox (DVD) 9.7 GB max (dual layered)
-Xbox 360 (DVD) 9.7 GB max (dual layered)

 

[Shogmaster]

oh come on. revolution is using DVDs. this thread is stupid. its not about increasing the media but what the rest of the market is using. 8 bit everyone used carts. 16 bit...bigger carts. 32 bit CDs. N64 was the odd man out so oh well. following gen, still discs. DC was GD roms, PS2 dvd, xbox DVD, GC, discs. all were fine. If anything next gen sonys the oddball. yes they'll have the most storage but at what cost? What happens if bluray is a bust? what keeps both MS and Nintendo from releasing multi disc games or coming up with better compression techniques?

As X360 luanch comes closer and it's real capablities become more apparent, the DVD's "lack" of storage will be PS3 fanboys' last clutch of straws for trolling the X360.

 

[Spider_Jerusalem]

Make that 50GB

So the PS3/360 disk capacity ratio (50/9) will be like the Xbox/GC one (9/1.5)... well, if GC did it this gen I suppose 360 will succeed too... I only hope not seeing too many two discs games, or at least managed in a smart way (like RE4) ^^''

 

[Dr_Cogent]

As X360 luanch comes closer and it's real capablities become more apparent, the DVD's "lack" of storage will be PS3 fanboys' last clutch of straws for trolling the X360.

:lol

 

[sonycowboy]

As X360 luanch comes closer and it's real capablities become more apparent, the DVD's "lack" of storage will be PS3 fanboys' last clutch of straws for trolling the X360.

Awwww, C'mon. You got nothing better than to play the troll card? Trolls will ALWAYS have plenty of loose threads to pull at for bashing thier anti-console of choice. The Xbox is trolled all the time vs the PS2 and it's clearly the technically superior machine.

 

[akascream]

Awwww, C'mon. You got nothing better than to play the troll card? Trolls will ALWAYS have plenty of loose threads to pull at for bashing thier anti-console of choice. The Xbox is trolled all the time vs the PS2 and it's clearly the technically superior machine.

Cause this thread wasn't.

 

[Pug]

The thing is Xbox360 has increased its storage capacity. Xbox had a DVD and an 8GB HD 360 has a DVD and 20GB HD. I'm sure the HD will be used to stream textures and such like.

 

[Nerevar]

Cause this thread wasn't.

it was started by sonycowboy, what did you expect? Him to make a level-headed comparison of a Sony product with something else?

 

[sonycowboy]

it was started by sonycowboy, what did you expect? Him to make a level-headed comparison of a Sony product with something else?

What's not level headed about it?

It's just a quick question I had as the discussion about PGR 3 gigabit textures came up. I made absolutely no conclusions regarding the issue and, in fact, specifically stated why it wasn't going to be a problem. I just thought it was an interesting observation.

But, if you numnuts want to keep avoiding talking about the thread and be defensive and attack the biased poster, go right ahead. I apologize to those who thought this was some sort of attack on their beloved system. Damn, sometimes this board does get to me.

 

[Bebpo]

As X360 luanch comes closer and it's real capablities become more apparent, the DVD's "lack" of storage will be PS3 fanboys' last clutch of straws for trolling the X360.

There's no reason for Sony fans to say anything negative about the X360 if it's a great console. I'm more expecting the Xbox fans to be screaming bloody murder in downplaying and trolling a year later when the PS3 is released and real capabilites become more apparent

 

[sonycowboy]

The thing is Xbox360 has increased its storage capacity. Xbox had a DVD and an 8GB HD 360 has a DVD and 20GB HD. I'm sure the HD will be used to stream textures and such like.

Obviously, the HD will be important for streaming data more quickly than the DVD could, thus reducing load times and making certain gameplay options possible that wouldn't be possible otherwise.

However, it still doesn't help when and if the day comes that they can't fit the game on the DVD.

Someday all of this will be meaningless once we can download the software through electronic distribution, but they've been promising this for over 10 years and almost no retail available commercial software is done this way (Half Life 2 being the obvious exception). Probably the biggest reason is that the software companies NEED retailers to make the product visible and to push it based on current consumer patterns).

 

[akascream]

But it is ok for you to play the troll card heh.

 

[Straightballin]

Later in the consoles life, I think we are going to see many games exclusive for the PS3 because of the media storage and there being no way to fit any of the games on a 9gb dual layered dvd.

 

[DarienA]

Later in the consoles life, I think we are going to see many games exclusive for the PS3 because of the media storage and there being no way to fit any of the games on a 9gb dual layered dvd.

...I don't know... that's just such a pie in the sky prediction to make...

 

[Pug]

Sonycowboy, its great that PS3 has a BluRay drive, however in terms of contnent "IF" games do go bigger that 8-9 GB what advantage does Blu-Ray have? Well it has the advantage that you don't have to change disks. Really its a nothing issue with regard to game storage capacity.HD film is a different story mind, but with DVD hitting its stride big time with regard to cost and how many films are flying off the shelves for low prices its going to be towards the end of the PS3 life when BluRay really makes an impact with regard HD films (well in the UK anyway). If truth be told I'd rather a HDD in PS3 rather than Blu-Ray becasue if your truely a film buff your going to get a better model player than the bog standard one that the PS3 will contain.

 

[Kon Tiki]

Later in the consoles life, I think we are going to see many games exclusive for the PS3 because of the media storage and there being no way to fit any of the games on a 9gb dual layered dvd.

I think being the market leader next gen will have more to do with that then the media format.

 

[monchi-kun]

Later in the consoles life, I think we are going to see many games exclusive for the PS3 because of the media storage and there being no way to fit any of the games on a 9gb dual layered dvd.

only Sony 1st party games will even TRY to fill a Blu-Ray disc.....which means they'll be bleeding out the ass from generating all that content. Blu-Ray will benefit movies first....but very few games will take advantage of the increased space outside of Square Enix

 

[Nerevar]

only Sony 1st party games will even TRY to fill a Blu-Ray disc.....which means they'll be bleeding out the ass from generating all that content. Blu-Ray will benefit movies first....but very few games will take advantage of the increased space outside of Square Enix

it will mostly be used to repeat textures across the disc to reduce load times is my guess. Keep in mind that, for example, Rallisport Challenge 2 almost completely filled a dual-layer DVD, but textures were repeated for almost every track so to reduce seek times when getting them off the DVD. I assume that this will be handled in the xbox360 by precaching stuff onto the hard drive. Different approaches, very similar benefits. Each one will have strengths in other areas, of course.

 

[Spider_Jerusalem]

However, it still doesn't help when and if the day comes that they can't fit the game on the DVD.

As I said, this already happened woth the GameCube, and it didn't prevent it from having one of the beautiest games this generation has seen, so I'd say this isn't much worrying.

Moreover, I think the hard disk and more cpu power will allow to store more compressed assets in the games disk, permitting to decompress them on HD before use or maybe decompressing on the fly if the CPU will be able to handle it in realtime.

 

[monchi-kun]

Rallisport Challenge 2 almost completely filled a dual-layer DVD, but textures were repeated for almost every track so to reduce seek times when getting them off the DVD. I assume that this will be handled in the xbox360 by precaching stuff onto the hard drive.

That's more of a problem with Xbox Devs not really taking advantage of the HDD in this gen.....that 360 HDD better be used for more than DL content and Save Games

 

[sonycowboy]

Sonycowboy, its great that PS3 has a BluRay drive, however in terms of contnent "IF" games do go bigger that 8-9 GB what advantage does Blu-Ray have? Well it has the advantage that you don't have to change disks. Really its a nothing issue with regard to game storage capacity.

I agree. It's absolutely unclear what advantage larger storage might have. However, it's possible there might be some beyond merely "swapping discs". But maybe not.

Could higher quality textures / sound / art /etc be available? Maybe, maybe not.

Maybe game worlds that are seamless and allow you to move back and forth across the world could be available at any time. If you had to swap discs just to go to another city, only to swap discs to come back, that would be a pain.

I have no idea what the future holds here. However, one truism, that seems to have existed to this point, is that if you give developers the room, they're going to use it. On the flip side, many are hesitant to go beyond it (ie use two discs).

I just think that the argument that there's no possible use for the space is disengenuous. However, I'll certainly concede that publishers' aren't foaming at the mouth to hire dozens of more artists to create mammouth worlds that would require that kind of space. Because, what we're talking about here is more content, and content ain't cheap.

only Sony 1st party games will even TRY to fill a Blu-Ray disc.....which means they'll be bleeding out the ass from generating all that content. Blu-Ray will benefit movies first....but very few games will take advantage of the increased space outside of Square Enix

Basically, what I said, only I wouldn't presume to be so definative about the plans of other publishers.

 

[OmniGamer]

Later in the consoles life, I think we are going to see many games exclusive for the PS3 because of the media storage and there being no way to fit any of the games on a 9gb dual layered dvd.

Who's to say that all developers are going to even WANT to fill up all of that space...not every game is going to need it, and remember the PS3 can play PS3 games on DVD just as PS2 could play PS2 CD-ROM games...so if some devs opt to make DVD based PS3 games, they can port to the other DVD based systems(as far as storage space goes).

 

[AB 101]

As X360 luanch comes closer and it's real capablities become more apparent, the DVD's "lack" of storage will be PS3 fanboys' last clutch of straws for trolling the X360.

:lol Only laughing because that was pathetic.

 

[Spider_Jerusalem]

Later in the consoles life, I think we are going to see many games exclusive for the PS3 because of the media storage and there being no way to fit any of the games on a 9gb dual layered dvd.

So in your world RE4 went PS2 exclusive because the GC media couldn't fit all the game in one disk, uh? ;-)

 

[bionic77]

Sonycowboy, its great that PS3 has a BluRay drive, however in terms of contnent "IF" games do go bigger that 8-9 GB what advantage does Blu-Ray have? Well it has the advantage that you don't have to change disks. Really its a nothing issue with regard to game storage capacity.HD film is a different story mind, but with DVD hitting its stride big time with regard to cost and how many films are flying off the shelves for low prices its going to be towards the end of the PS3 life when BluRay really makes an impact with regard HD films (well in the UK anyway). If truth be told I'd rather a HDD in PS3 rather than Blu-Ray becasue if your truely a film buff your going to get a better model player than the bog standard one that the PS3 will contain.

I thought everyone agreed having a smaller format hurt the Gamecube? Developers were always downsampling things to get them to fit. Seems like the same thing with Xbox360 and Revolution assuming that games are built from the ground up for PS3.

 

[Nerevar]

That's more of a problem with Xbox Devs not really taking advantage of the HDD in this gen.....that 360 HDD better be used for more than DL content and Save Games

oh I agree, but since PS3 definitely won't have an included hard drive I'm talking about ways developers could use the extra space of a PS3 blu-ray disc without breaking the bank on hiring artists to make 20 gigabytes of texture and model data. I think you'll see a lot of repeated data across a disc to reduce seek times. Developers on xbox 360 will have to precache data on the hard drive in order to have a comparable effect.

 

[Spider_Jerusalem]

I thought everyone agreed having a smaller format hurt the Gamecube?

What hurt the gamecube wasn't smaller format, it was being unable to play dvd movies and not being modded (or being modded too late in its lifecycle). I dont'remember reading any interviews where developers admit not going to develop on the cube because of its disk capacity.

 

[monkeymagic]

...I don't know... that's just such a pie in the sky prediction to make...

It is almost certain that with the ever expanding scale of games development that there will be games that go beyond 9GB in size as even this gen there are already dual layer games (thought not all reach 9GB).

Whether games will need the full 54GB of dual layer PS3 BD-ROM is another matter but I can see games reaching 15GB in size easily.

Of course for X360 and Revolution games can be spanned across several discs with little impact on cost.

 

[Shogmaster]

:lol Only laughing because that is prophetic.

Fixed

 

[Dr_Cogent]

This is such a non-issue I can't believe it's being argued. So if it doesn't fit on one DVD, they put it on 2! OMG! WTF!?!?!?!? :lol

It's the end of the fargin world!

 

[AtomicShroom]

I dont'remember reading any interviews where developers admit not going to develop on the cube because of its disk capacity.

Not developing for a console isn't the point here. The point is that often, the GameCube had downsampled or feature-stripped versions of games (read: inferior) compared to the Xbox and PS2 counterparts.

Having inferior versions of games hurts, no matter how you look at it.

 

[Shogmaster]

Not developing for a console isn't the point here. The point is that often, the GameCube had downsampled or feature-stripped versions of games (read: inferior) compared to the Xbox and PS2 counterparts.

Hey doofy, that was because GC has the least amount of System RAM (XBox - 64MB, PS2 - 32MB, GC - 24MB).

 

[scissorfight]

This is such a non-issue I can't believe it's being argued. So if it doesn't fit on one DVD, they put it on 2! OMG! WTF!?!?!?!? :lol

It's the end of the fargin world!

Exactly. It wasn't that long ago that everyone was swapping disc 3 for disc 4 in FFIX...I don't remember everyone being particularly annoyed by it. Games that traditionally take more space (RPG's, action-adventure, etc) also seem to be more disc-swap friendly. Games that aren't swap friendly (fighters, sports, etc) might have to do away with any pre-rendered cutscenes...which really don't need to be used anyways with the power of the next-gen consoles anyways.

 

[teiresias]

Revolution is using vinyl, bitches!!!!!!!

 

[kaching]

As X360 luanch comes closer and it's real capablities become more apparent, the DVD's "lack" of storage will be PS3 fanboys' last clutch of straws for trolling the X360.

I'm personally hoping that bolded part means that X360 is capable of the Killzone 3 rendered footage because I'm looking forward to you explaining to all of us in your standard high-handed fashion how its clearly so obvious that these machines were capable of this all along and you can clearly see how the poly budget is being applied, etc., etc.

 

[Dr_Cogent]

Exactly. It wasn't that long ago that everyone was swapping disc 3 for disc 4 in FFIX...I don't remember everyone being particularly annoyed by it. Games that traditionally take more space (RPG's, action-adventure, etc) also seem to be more disc-swap friendly. Games that aren't swap friendly (fighters, sports, etc) might have to do away with any pre-rendered cutscenes...which really don't need to be used anyways with the power of the next-gen consoles anyways.

There better not be fucking pre-rendered cutscenes this next gen. RE4 has proved that we don't need them anymore and it can all be done in real time.

 

[Shogmaster]

I'm personally hoping that bolded part means that X360 is capable of the Killzone 3 rendered footage because I'm looking forward to you explaining to all of us in your standard high-handed fashion how its clearly so obvious that these machines were capable of this all along and you can clearly see how the poly budget is being applied, etc., etc.

What the hell are you jibber jabbering about homey? I would respond if you actually had a point in there somewhere.

 

[kaching]

Don't worry about it now. We can revisit later if and when the time comes.

 

[jarrod]

Hey doofy, that was because GC has the least amount of System RAM (XBox - 64MB, PS2 - 32MB, GC - 24MB).

Not overall system RAM, just main RAM. Here's the breakdown for consoles this gen...

Dreamcast
-16MB main RAM
-8MB video RAM
-2MB audio RAM
-24KB L1 cache

PlayStation 2
-32MB main RAM
-4MB video RAM
-2MB audio RAM
-24KB L1 cache
-16KB scratch cache
-8KB VU0 cache
-32KB VU1 cache

GameCube
-24MB main RAM
-16MB auxilliary RAM
-3MB video RAM
-64KB L1 cache
-256KB L2 cache

Xbox
-64MB UMA RAM
-32KB L1 cache
-128KB L2 cache


...GOD's lack of space has been used by developers as a reasoning for cutting features and content on GC ports though. Don't be surprised if the same happens to 360 next generation... publishers will always opt for single disc SKUs if at all possible.