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[Wario64]

i wonder if we'll be getting many multi-disc X360 games. that'd suck....i hate switching discs. it doesn't help that CG movies are gonna take up a crapload of disc space because of HD

 

[Shogmaster]

Not overall system RAM, just main RAM. Here's the breakdown for consoles this gen...

Dreamcast
-16MB main RAM
-8MB video RAM
-2MB audio RAM
-24KB L1 cache

PlayStation 2
-32MB main RAM
-4MB video RAM
-2MB audio RAM
-24KB L1 cache
-16KB scratch cache
-8KB VU0 cache
-32KB VU1 cache

GameCube
-24MB main RAM
-16MB auxilliary RAM
-3MB video RAM
-64KB L1 cache
-256KB L2 cache

Xbox
-64MB UMA
-32KB L1 cache
-128KB L2 cache

When I say "system RAM", I mean same as your "main" RAM. Notice I didn't say "total" RAM.

Also, it might be useful to list the bandwidth of each type of RAM since if you leave out the fact that the 16MB of A-RAM of GC only has something rediculous like 81MB/sec bandwidth, it actually seems useful. :lol

 

[jarrod]

When I say "system RAM", I mean same as your "main" RAM. Notice I didn't say "total" RAM.

Then Xbox has no "system" ram?

PS2~ 32MB
GC~ 24MB
DC~ 16MB
XB~ 0MB

 

[Reilly]

I'm pretty sure Final Fantasy 13 will use more than 10 GB on a disk. Also, if I'm developing a game, would it not cost more money and time to shrink a game down to fit on a regular DVD? With 50Gb, you can be pretty lazy with storage and some might like that feature.

 

[Nerevar]

Then Xbox has no "system" ram?

PS2~ 32MB
GC~ 24MB
DC~ 16MB
XB~ 0MB

that's an interesting interpretation of "unified memory".

 

[Shogmaster]

that's an interesting interpretation of "unified memory".

 

[jarrod]

that's an interesting interpretation of "unified memory".

If we compared UMA though (which would need to take over functions specified on other consoles by dedicated RAM pools) then why only compare main RAM in other machines? Why not include those RAM pools? It's not like Xbox can get away dedicating all 64MB to the same functions PS2 has 32MB for. That 64MB has to do the same as what PS2 has 32MB+4MB+2MB for.

If you're comparing "system RAM", really it's...

64MB Xbox
43MB GameCube
38MB PlayStation 2
26MB Dreamcast

 

[krypt0nian]

The bigger what if is which will end up hurting more:

1) the lack of a larger media format

2) the lack of a built in HDD

 

[Shogmaster]

If we compared UMA though (which would need to take over functions specified on other consoles by dedicated RAM pools) then why only compare main RAM in other machines? Why not include those RAM pools? It's not like Xbox can get away dedicating all 64MB to the same functions PS2 has 32MB for.

If you're comparing "system RAM", really it's...

64MB Xbox
43MB GameCube
38MB PlayStation 2
26MB Dreamcast

Bad comparasin. All 64MB of XBox's RAM has useful bandwidth. You can devote 63 out of the 64MB for things requiring tons of bandwidth like textures (extreme and rediculous example, but still possible). 16 out of 43MB for GC has pathetic 83MB/sec bandwidth, only useful for audio, animation and the like.

 

[Amir0x]

The bigger what if is which will end up hurting more:

1) the lack of a larger media format

2) the lack of a built in HDD

The correct answer is that it'll hurt neither of them, but ONE of these sucks a lot more (hint: NO HDD IN PS3).

 

[sonycowboy]

The bigger what if is which will end up hurting more:

1) the lack of a larger media format

2) the lack of a built in HDD

Probably the HDD, but the truth is they both do.

Developers are going to be HUGELY multiplatform this generation. That makes it difficult to design a game for both systems and truly take advantage of huge media storage for uncompressed textures, more art, bigger worlds or to use the HDD in a meaningful gameplay manner (large streaming worlds, writing game data back to the HDD,etc) because it won't appear in your other version or, at least won't translate well.

It's the same thing we've talked about this generation. Multiplatform development is forced to code to the lowest common denominator, especially if you're talking about core gameplay elements.

So, gamers will be hurt because Sony & Microsoft have gone two different paths, and thus, at some level insured, that neither feature is well utilized.

Except by exclusive titles. Which is why I try to predominantly stay with exclusive titles. They are designed from the ground up specifically for a given system and thus are able to really take advantages of specific strenths.

 

[jarrod]

Bad comparasin. All 64MB of XBox's RAM has useful bandwidth. You can devote 63 out of the 64MB for things requiring tons of bandwidth like textures (extreme and rediculous example, but still possible). 16 out of 43MB for GC has pathetic 83MB/sec bandwidth, only useful for audio, animation and the like.

Well, where's the cut-off point for useful? You're being too selective here as GC's 24MB of 1T-SRAM is super fast compared to any memory in Xbox... depending on where we place the bar, one could say Xbox has no "useful" RAM too. It's not like the slow 16MB of A-RAM in GameCube is useless either, it's perfectly suitable for loading in texture data or audio (which is the intended design)... different architectures tend to rely on different approaches, that's all.

Which is all beside the point really, as I've never heard of a developer cutting GC content due to it's RAM architecture. Rather than was always due to the smaller disc size... developers have shown they prefer to simply cut content rather the spring for multiple discs. Xbox 360 really does seem more like "GameCube 2" by the minute.

 

[Shogmaster]

Well, where's the cut-off point for useful? You're being too selective here as GC's 24MB of 1T-SRAM is super fast compared to any memory in Xbox... depending on where we place the bar, one could say Xbox has no "useful" RAM too. It's not like the slow 16MB of A-RAM in GameCube is useless either, it's perfectly suitable for loading in texture data or audio (which is the intended design)... different architectures tend to rely on different approaches, that's all.

Bandwidth for the 24MB of 1T-SRAM is actually far less than or about the same as that of the PC1600 DDR of the XBox (2.6GB/sec vs 6.4GB/sec). It's the latency advantage that's better on the 1T-SRAM.

Which is all beside the point really, as I've never heard of a developer cutting GC content due to it's RAM architecture. Rather than was always due to the smaller disc size...

I haven't heard the specific cases of either, but I'd think RAM is far more crucial than media.

developers have shown they prefer to simply cut content rather the spring for multiple discs.

Additional GC disc would be less than a buck to make for the publishers. It's hardly a good reason to cut the GC version of the game.

Xbox 360 really does seem more like "GameCube 2" by the minute.

Your clock is broken. Either that, or you don't know how to tell time.

 

[Dr_Cogent]

The correct answer is that it'll hurt neither of them, but ONE of these sucks a lot more (hint: NO HDD IN PS3).

Yeah, lack of a HDD in PS3 does suck a whole lot more.

 

[jarrod]

I haven't heard the specific cases of either, but I'd think RAM is far more crucial than media.

Well, going by what Neversoft, Atomic Planet and others have said... it isn't.

Additional GC disc would be less than a buck to make for the publishers. It's hardly a good reason to cut the GC version of the game.

Well, it's what happens. Expect the same to happen with 360 versus PS3 eventually.

Your clock is broken. Either that, or you don't know how to tell time.

Can't see the forest for the trees can you.

 

[Mrbob]

I'd say the big difference is seeing 3rd party sales are better on Xbox than GC. So publishers will spend a little extra for the second or third disc whereas gamecube sales didn't justify the extra cost.

 

[Shogmaster]

Well, going by what Neversoft, Atomic Planet and others have said... it isn't.

I'm curious to see what games these were. If it's something like sports games, I can see how they wouldn't want disc changes.

Well, it's what happens. Expect the same to happen with 360 versus PS3 eventually.

By the time PS3 games are wasting away the space on Blu-Ray ROMs, I'd think most devs will have the procedural synthesis business going to utilize the ROM and RAM space accordingly. Plus, there's also the HD space that can be utilized to pre-load data from the additional discs so that in gameplay, you only need to load the "main" disc.

Can't see the forest for the trees can you.

That's not a forest. It's at best, the garden department at Home Depot.

 

[jarrod]

I'd say the big difference is seeing 3rd party sales are better on Xbox than GC. So publishers will spend a little extra for the second or third disc whereas gamecube sales didn't justify the extra cost.

Nice wishful thinking. If EA, Activision, Ubisoft or whoever can save a buck by skimping on some bonus content, rest assured they will. And a dramactically smaller format than the assumed market leader sort of makes that an inevitability for Xbox 360.

 

[----]

Something to keep in mind is that Microsoft already has a WMV compression scheme which is capable of storing high definition video on a standard DVD disc. (Terminator 2) If Xbox 360 developers use this compression they could get more content onto a Dual Layered disc.

If MS is looking to make a profit this generation and be the mainstream console then I don't think they really have a choice in this matter. HD-DVD technology and content is simply too expensive and will not takeover DVD's for sometime. Sony on the otherhand is throwing in stuff like gigabit ethernet and dual output 32:9 1080p which I see very few people making use of.

Toshiba should be very concerned about the PS3 shipping with Blu-Ray because it could force the movie studios to give in and support the format similar to the way UMD is becoming quickly adopted and the way DVD became extremely popular after the introduction of the PS2. I don't see how Toshiba plans to counteract Blu-Ray. If HD-DVD has most of the movie studios and most consumers have a Blu-Ray device, I don't know what they're going to do. I suppose most electronics (not produced by Sony) will end up eventually shipping with dual lasers to play both formats. It's going to suck to not have one standard media for movies anymore.

 

[Azrael]

This is such a non-issue I can't believe it's being argued. So if it doesn't fit on one DVD, they put it on 2! OMG! WTF!?!?!?!?

It's the end of the fargin world!

We heard the same argument last generation about the Dreamcast's GD-ROM format. No game would need more capacity than what disc swapping 2-3 GD-ROM discs would offer. And yet, had the DC survived, there would have been no practical way to put something like GTA: San Andreas on the format without cutting a lot of content. If Rockstar is filling a dual-layer DVD now with primitive graphics and without a lot of FMV, you can bet they're going to need more than DVD 9 next generation.

 

[jarrod]

I'm curious to see what games these were. If it's something like sports games, I can see how they wouldn't want disc changes.

Various Tony Hawks and MegaMan Anniversary. I'm sure there's others out there.

By the time PS3 games are wasting away the space on Blu-Ray ROMs, I'd think most devs will have the procedural synthesis business going to utilize the ROM and RAM space accordingly. Plus, there's also the HD space that can be utilized to pre-load data from the additional discs so that in gameplay, you only need to load the "main" disc.

Sure, there will be ways around that. But had Atomic Planet really put in the effort, they could've squeezed all the content from the PS2 MMAC on to a single GC disc as well without much hassle using readily available compression tools included in the GC SDK even.

In the end it's always going to come down to costs. And really, if publishers can get away with shaving costs, it's going to happen. Inevitable.

That's not a forest. It's at best, it's the garden department at Home Depot.

You should give GameCube 2 more credit than that.

 

[sangreal]

If Rockstar is filling a dual-layer DVD now with primitive graphics and without a lot of FMV, you can bet they're going to need more than DVD 9 next generation.

Maybe. But then again, GTA:SA is single layer so....

 

[Nerevar]

Which is all beside the point really, as I've never heard of a developer cutting GC content due to it's RAM architecture. Rather than was always due to the smaller disc size... developers have shown they prefer to simply cut content rather the spring for multiple discs. Xbox 360 really does seem more like "GameCube 2" by the minute.

It all depends on marketshare. Multiplatform games sold like shit on Gamecube, so developers put very little effort into porting them. Rather than rework things, they cut or downsampled data. If xbox 360 is looking at a very small marketshare, the same thing will happen. But if xbox 360 hits the Microsoft hope for marketshare, the ports will make much better use of the system's resources. That's what it really comes down to.

 

[Shogmaster]

Various Tony Hawks and MegaMan Anniversary. I'm sure there's others out there.

MEGAMAN ANNIVERSARY?!? X_x You've gotta be shitting me!
WTF, was that bitch mostly FMV or something? :lol

Sure, there will be ways around that. But had Atomic Planet really put in the effort, they could've squeezed all the content from the PS2 MMAC on to a single GC disc as well without much hassle using readily available compression tools included in the GC SDK even.

In the end it's always going to come down to costs. And really, if publishers can get away with shaving costs, it's going to happen. Inevitable.

I think it's more about the marketshare of your intended audience. Most pubs feel that GC buyers only care about kiddy games or Nintendo 1st party games, and they are not willing to put forward the effort and money to put out "none GCesque" games on GC.

You should give GameCube 2 more credit than that.

If X360 is GC2, then what the hell is PS3? XBox 2 minus the hard drive and Live? :lol

 

[Pimpbaa]

We heard the same argument last generation about the Dreamcast's GD-ROM format. No game would need more capacity than what disc swapping 2-3 GD-ROM discs would offer. And yet, had the DC survived, there would have been no practical way to put something like GTA: San Andreas on the format without cutting a lot of content. If Rockstar is filling a dual-layer DVD now with primitive graphics and without a lot of FMV, you can bet they're going to need more than DVD 9 next generation.

Rockstar isn't filling a dual layered dvd. None of the GTA's were dual layered.

 

[sonycowboy]

Maybe. But then again, GTA:SA is single layer so....

Ahhhh..

So games only went from ~650MB to ~4.7GB this generation (95%+ of PSOne games were < 650MB, probably ~95% of current gen games < single sided DVD)

That's only a 7* growth. Whew! We're set for next gen. We've got plent of space. That won't happen again.

 

[Pellham]

Media storage capacity was a non-factor in this generation, so I doubt it will be one in the next generation. I don't care how much bluray discs can hold, at some point you're going to need to consider development costs of a 50 gigabyte game.

 

[sangreal]

Ahhhh..

So games only went from ~650MB to ~4.7GB this generation (95%+ of PSOne games were < 650MB, probably ~95% of current gen games < single sided DVD)

That's only a 7* growth. Whew! We're set for next gen. We've got plent of space. That won't happen again.

It would be more accurate, in my opinion, to look at how many games were constrained by the CD storage medium compared to how many games were constrained by DVD (0).

 

[----]

I'm probably the last person that should bring this up since I don't play PC games, but weren't most PC games this generation released on multi-disc CD's. If a developer uses PS3 as their target platform then the Xbox 360 and PC releases of the game will come on multi-disc DVDs. If the PC or the Xbox 360 is the target platform for a developer then the game probably won't make use of the Blu-Ray disc. In any case between Revolution, PC, and Xbox 360, the PS3 is the odd man out with most game playing platforms using DVD as the standard.

 

[ChrisReid]

Yeah, there's nothing really stopping them from making 4-disc XBox 360 games if they really need to. We didn't see it this generation, but there were a good number of 4-disc games on the PS1.. I recall that there was one 5-disc game too. I predict we'll start seeing some double disc games and that'll probably be plenty for years.

 

[Gek54]

It would be more accurate, in my opinion, to look at how many games were constrained by the CD storage medium compared to how many games were constrained by DVD (0).

Good job, you do realize there is no way to tell if a game has been constrained becuase there is no current medium being used that is larger than DVD.

 

[ChrisReid]

Good job, you do realize there is no way to tell if a game has been constrained becuase there is no current medium being used that is larger than DVD.

Well, you could look at games that come on multiple DVDs. PCs are still beginning to transfer to DVD. It'll be five to ten years before a higher capacity disc is rolled out for PC gaming, and nobody is expecting PC games to be limited by DVD.

 

[sonycowboy]

Media storage capacity was a non-factor in this generation, so I doubt it will be one in the next generation. I don't care how much bluray discs can hold, at some point you're going to need to consider development costs of a 50 gigabyte game.

What about a 10GB game, or a 12 GB game, or a 15, 20, or 25GB game? Why do they have to go to filling the whole thing up immediately?

 

[Future]

I think God of War almost maxed out a dual layer dvd because of all the extra movies. Next gen, with higher rez textures, movies and audio..I can't see how anyone could say that more space isn't important. Necessary? Nope, cuz you can always switch discs. But it's gonna be nice for devs to not have to worry about trimming content, or whether they want to use multiple discs or not on PS3

 

[open_mouth_]

I predict 95% of Xbox 360 games will be 1 disc DVD games (~8 gigs is PLENTY if used correctly) and the rest will be 2-disc. Customers are used to 2-disc DVD's nowadays with movies and gamecube games

 

[----]

What is the reason why there were so few dual layered DVD games this generation?

 

[jarrod]

MEGAMAN ANNIVERSARY?!? X_x You've gotta be shitting me!
WTF, was that bitch mostly FMV or something? :lol

AP didn't want to go through the trouble of compressing sound files. As such, MM1-6 are missing their remixed soundtracks in the GC release... it's not a huge issue, but it's another example of lost content (due to disc size) that could've been easily gotten around.

I think it's more about the marketshare of your intended audience. Most pubs feel that GC buyers only care about kiddy games or Nintendo 1st party games, and they are not willing to put forward the effort and money to put out "none GCesque" games on GC.

I dunno... looking at US sales, GameCube is actually MegaMan's biggest console market, yet Capcom USA/Atomic Planet still skimped on the GC release of MMAC. If GameCube had a larger capacity disc, this would never be an issue and alternatives (compression routines, multiple discs) don't seem to factor in even when GameCube is the primary market.

Doesn't exactly bode well for Xbox 360. You really think Activision, THQ or EA are going to spend another $1 if they can help it?

If X360 is GC2, then what the hell is PS3? XBox 2 minus the hard drive and Live? :lol

Pretty much. Plus WiFi and a boomerang.

 

[----]

Since the Xbox 360 comes with a 20GB drive, couldn't you have the option of also installing some of the content on the HDD like you do with multi-disc PC games thereby elminating the need to swap discs? You know for those 10+GB racing/sports/fighting games where you really don't want to be swapping discs.

 

[monkeymagic]

How many games at the end of last generation required multiple CDs?

The point is the end of a generation is no indicator as to the the capacity requirements of the following generation especially considering develpment budgets and the scope of games (largely led by the demand from gamers) increases many fold from generation to generation and we have not yet hit a plateau in that regard.

What we do know is that texture, audio and video requirements will increase measurably with the move from 480p to 720p/1080p and full 5.1 (and possibly 7.1) support in games.

 

[kaching]

So, gamers will be hurt because Sony & Microsoft have gone two different paths, and thus, at some level insured, that neither feature is well utilized.

There's at least a couple of notable differences between the hdd/no hdd scenario of this gen and the scenario which is likely to play out next gen, that should narrow the gap.

First, the X360 hdd is legitimately optional by merit of being detachable. With the first Xbox the only way the hdd could be made unavailable was by defect or by voiding the warranty, neither of which is a scenario that you'd expect a dev to have to account for in the design of their games. But, this time around, X360 users are granted the legitimate right to remove the hdd. So now X360 devs interested in making use of the hdd for one or more aspects of their game have to do something they didn't have to do with Xbox - decide what to do in the "no hdd present" scenario. Do they simply code the game so that it can't be played unless the hdd is present or do they allow for the game to still be playable whether the hdd is present or not?

Second, in all likelihood, it doesn't seem like the availability of an hdd for the PS3 is going to be a mid to late gen arrival like it was for the PS2 and there should be significantly more OOTB support for mass storage formats built into the PS3 OS if for no other reason than because of the flash media slots and USB 2.0 ports. So while PS3 developers will have to still contend with the issue of just how many PS3 owners indulge in a mass storage solution, they won't have to also wait until two years or more into the PS3's life to take advantage of the option like they had to with the PS2.

Taken together, these changes will mean that the PS3 and X360 are more similar to each other in terms of OOTB hdd support than the Xbox and PS2 were, giving devs less reason to compromise on hdd support for the games, as desired.

 

[TheDuce22]

99% of xbox and ps2 games arent even 3 gigs. Even gamecube did just fine with all the ports thanks to compression technology. Not to mention the fact that its rediculously easy to package 2 dvds in a case if by some chance a game takes up more than 9 gigs. Most current pc releases still come on cds and nobody is complaining about that.

 

[robo_robo]

Wouldn't surprise me at all to see PS3 games with multi dvd instead of a blu-ray at first. It's all about the cost.

 

[jarrod]

Wouldn't surprise me at all to see PS3 games with multi dvd instead of a blu-ray at first. It's all about the cost.

Actualy, I think a single BD would be cheaper than multiple DVDs for publishers. We'll see a lot of single DVD games the first year or two I bet, just like all those CD based PS2 SKUs in 2000/2001.

 

[Gek54]

99% of xbox and ps2 games arent even 3 gigs. Even gamecube did just fine with all the ports thanks to compression technology. Not to mention the fact that its rediculously easy to package 2 dvds in a case if by some chance a game takes up more than 9 gigs. Most current pc releases still come on cds and nobody is complaining about that.

I just took a test sample of 4 of my PS2 games and 4 of my xbox games and some how my sample produced an average disc size of 4.3GB. Hmmm.

 

[monkeymagic]

You will need to sample at least 1000 games before you reach that 99%

 

[TheDuce22]

I just took a test sample of 4 xbox games and came up with an average of under 1 gig. HA!!

 

[inpHilltr8r]

16 out of 43MB for GC has pathetic 83MB/sec bandwidth, only useful for audio, animation and the like.

Which makes up a significant portion of the average games working set.

By the time PS3 games are wasting away the space on Blu-Ray ROMs, I'd think most devs will have the procedural synthesis business going to utilize the ROM and RAM space accordingly.

Every generation people fret that we have too much memory, and too much power, and that the only way to fully utilise it, will be procedurally generated shit. Forgetting that content creation tools are also getting bigger, better, and faster.

 

[Gek54]

I just took a test sample of 4 xbox games and came up with an average of under 1 gig. HA!!

Which 4 games?

 

[sonycowboy]

99% of xbox and ps2 games arent even 3 gigs. Even gamecube did just fine with all the ports thanks to compression technology. Not to mention the fact that its rediculously easy to package 2 dvds in a case if by some chance a game takes up more than 9 gigs. Most current pc releases still come on cds and nobody is complaining about that.

This listing seems to directly contradict that statement.

http://www.modchipstore.com/PlayStation2-DVD-ROM-game-TOC-size-list-7.html

Quite a few games there listed are over 4GB and many are early titles. They big ones also suspiciously stay right around the single layer limit, which makes me wonder if there's some moderate, but substantial additional costs to going to dual layer disc.

I think with HDLoader & bittorrent, we'd have some people who know a bit more about average game sizes.

 

[TheDuce22]

I was going off of the the average game sizes you would see if you visited certian torrent sites. I forgot they were compressed though, my mistake! They range mainly from 1-4 when you unzip them, which still isnt close to the max.