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[Stinkles]

34" what? Princeton never had a 34" 720p set. It was a 30" set.

Actually they did. It's rarer, and not quite as good. But it's good.

 

[Shogmaster]

Actually they did. It's rarer, and not quite as good. But it's good.

Really! @_o

edit: I'm not coming up with anything on google. Are you sure the set could do 720p? Maybe it just accepted 720p? The only thing coming up is the 3.0HD.

 

[dark10x]

No, I was throwing out recommendations for those before, but I actually own an HS420.

Absolutely love it, though. Perhaps the most impressive thing to me is the complete lack of any artifacts or flaws. I have a ground loop in my current area, so all other sets would display various artifacts as a result. Rolling bars (very slight), fuzziness on certain shades of color, etc. The HS is as crystal clear as a PC monitor.

It's true that running 720p images through it will allow you to see the slight interlace flicker of 1080i...but when actually playing games, it really isn't a big deal and somehow gives them an even sharper appearance. I can't stand anything other than native resolution on LCDs, but on this CRT, 720p scaled to 1080i looks EXTREMELY natural as if there was no scaling at all. Obviously, the interlace lines are much finer than a normal analog set, so it's not as if you can compare the two. The image is very stable and crisp, but certain images will reveal a slight flicker.

I DO prefer 720p -> 1080i on this TV to various LCDs running 720p natively. I just can't get over the flaws of non-CRT displays.

Another thing you can look forward to (if you didn't already notice it from testing) is very good scaling from SD. Unlike the majority of sets I've looked at, this internal scaler is capable of making SD sources appear as if there were really 480p. Field rendered games especially benefit.

 

[mrklaw]

several LCDs at 1366x768 allow you to watch proper 720p at 1280x720, with a black border - no scaling.

But I agree, its a stupid size for a panel. Why they didn't just go with the nice simple 1280x720 I don't know (maybe a PC compatibility overhang?). Although with overscan, even 1280x720 isn't perfect.


Still way better than a CRT (I....M...O...) for 720p content.




any more thoughts on whether 720p native (i.e. xbox 360) would be better as 480p/540p/1080i?

 

[Shogmaster]

any more thoughts on whether 720p native (i.e. xbox 360) would be better as 480p/540p/1080i?

720p > 480p: 66% of pixel detail, but no interpolation
720p > 540p: 75% of pixel detail, but no interpolation
720p > 1080i: sideconversion into slightly higher pixel detail, but with interlacing and interpolation.

Given the choice, I'd take 540p, but there are no such sets so we be fucked on that front.

Either steal a Princeton 3.0HD with like 2 more acomplices, play X360 on a computer CRT in 720p (with letterboxing), or get a fixed panel 720p HD set.

 

[Fatalah]

question-- isn't the tried and tested CRT technology better than LCD? So in my case, a man with a tight budget, CRT is cool with me.

I'd really love a new TV to play games on. My current gaming tv is a SHARP (shudder) and for some reason i have horizontal lines running across the screen. God, somebody win me a new tv.

 

[Lord Error]

Another thing you can look forward to (if you didn't already notice it from testing) is very good scaling from SD. Unlike the majority of sets I've looked at, this internal scaler is capable of making SD sources appear as if there were really 480p. Field rendered games especially benefit.

I was going to ask you, what's the best setting for games that don't support progressive scan and also regular SD TV signal? I know there are several DRC settings, is the "interlaced" one the best? I know "Cinemotion" should be used for film-based interlaced material.

You said once you found a good setting for Ico. What would that be?

Still way better than a CRT (I....M...O...) for 720p content.

For resolution, true, but the LCDs still suck when it comes to black levels / dark colors. I'm not even bothered by LCD refresh rates anymore, but the color fidelity is still unmatched on CRT. I have really good LCD monitor that has black levels better than any other I've ever seen, but still watching night scenes on a show "Lost" made me cringe. Also, again despite that new lamination the monitor has (which is a major plus making it look closer to CRT 'warmth'), the picture still looks somehow more 'raw' compared to the more natural video reproduction on the CRT.

 

[Chewy]

Like when he called the A10 a great CRT set? *rolleyes*



YOU TOO? Am I in the bizarro world or you geniuses at avs just interchange the term CRT and LCD like that for the hell of it? If it's the same A10s we are talking about, they are LCD projections, not CRT projections.



CRT: Cathod Ray Tube.
LCD: Liquid Crystal Display.
You two: confused on the difference.



A10s are the best LCD rear projections thus far, and rock the world on bang for the buck. But they are not gonna give you true 24bit color depth with such fast response times. Such is the realities of current gen TFT LCDs. But then again, 18bit + dithering does a decent job of simulating 24bit color. That's probably why 99% of the laptop owners never complain about the color depth (all LCDs on laptops are 18bit + dither).



I was only jubilant about the 540p option, which for me makes it a better candidate for my gaming purpose. Not that it matters now, I found out that 540p option is only for 480p sources.



You two are not doing a great job of representing avs forums (which I do already have an account at, thankyouverymuch), not knowing that A10s are not using CRTs......



Stop it you two. I NEVER said 960x540 is gonna look better than 1080i. Infact, I stated that 1080i has more pixel definition than 720p already in reply to him! You guys gotta learn to fucking read.



BECAUSE I DIDN'T? HELLO? MCFLY? *knocks on head* God damnit, you two need to get hooked on phonics.



avs forums have helped me out bunch of time already. Fortunately, there are plenty of folks there that can tell the difference between CRTs and LCDs.

Alot of people including myself put RP CRT sets in the same catagory as RP LCD sets or i should say in the RP CRT catagory, as you said or someone in here said, its just more of a type of lingo then proper speaking of the technology which in this case not being at avs forums, i've should of spoke in proper terms along with that other guy to not confuse anyone that isnt ht savvy.

Your a pretty rude person though. I take it your not a very likeable guy except on the internet? I try not to get into arguments or let things get to me from people online that sit in front of their computer with their chest all puffed up like superman, usually gets no where as in this case but if it makes you feel like a man then more power to you. If anything im representing avs forums in a good way, you should take a look in the mirror and ask yourself how you represent yourself, you never know, you may just see the light one day.

I wont even get into your other quotes, seems your qouting system is your biggest defense so no need to get into any arguments over this stuff, this is all for hobby & fun, not stress and from what i've seen out of you, it'll be like talking to a stop sign, again, no pun intended.

As far as the other questions go from the respectful people that have replied in this thread, i'll try and get back to your guy's questions after lunch. Im about to indulge in a foot long subway as i sit in my office and read the cool threads about vidoegames in these forums.

Yes i been a long time lurker in Gaming Age Forums, great forums to learn about videogames. I been and still am a pretty avid gamer. More of a pc gamer but i will also get the next generation of consoles for my home theater rooms i have recently re-constructed. I will share some pictures of my main home theater soon with you guys. I have 6 rows of theater seats, a pretty nice state of the art hd front projector w/soda fountain and popcorn machine.

Cheers,
Chewy Bott

 

[dark10x]

I was going to ask you, what's the best setting for games that don't support progressive scan and also regular SD TV signal? I know there are several DRC settings, is the "interlaced" one the best? I know "Cinemotion" should be used for film-based interlaced material.

I typically stick to the third option (which you did not name). The actual name escapes me at the moment, but it is my favorite of the three for pretty much all SD content.

Oh, and there are like four presets available for various "user" settings. Immediately switch to and use the "Pro" or "Expert" setting. All of the others use various artificial image enhancements that simply destroy the image IMO. Switch to Pro and edit from there.

Obviously, disable all of the "enhancements".

You'll need to spend time adjusting and tweaking before really enjoying it. Once properly adjusted, however, the image is quite stunning and the colors are extremely vivid.

 

[WrathOfOtaibah]

I just bought a 1080i TV. 1080i is decent enough for this generation but in about 5-6 years, I'll move on higher than that.

 

[Shogmaster]

Alot of people including myself put RP CRT sets in the same catagory as RP LCD sets or i should say in the RP CRT catagory, as you said or someone in here said, its just more of a type of lingo then proper speaking of the technology which in this case not being at avs forums, i've should of spoke in proper terms along with that other guy to not confuse anyone that isnt ht savvy.

Your a pretty rude person though. I take it your not a very likeable guy except on the internet? I try not to get into arguments or let things get to me from people online that sit in front of their computer with their chest all puffed up like superman, usually gets no where as in this case but if it makes you feel like a man then more power to you. If anything im representing avs forums in a good way, you should take a look in the mirror and ask yourself how you represent yourself, you never know, you may just see the light one day.

I wont even get into your other quotes, seems your qouting system is your biggest defense so no need to get into any arguments over this stuff, this is all for hobby & fun, not stress and from what i've seen out of you, it'll be like talking to a stop sign, again, no pun intended.

As far as the other questions go from the respectful people that have replied in this thread, i'll try and get back to your guy's questions after lunch. Im about to indulge in a foot long subway as i sit in my office and read the cool threads about vidoegames in these forums.

Yes i been a long time lurker in Gaming Age Forums, great forums to learn about videogames. I been and still am a pretty avid gamer. More of a pc gamer but i will also get the next generation of consoles for my home theater rooms i have recently re-constructed. I will share some pictures of my main home theater soon with you guys. I have 6 rows of theater seats, a pretty nice state of the art hd front projector w/soda fountain and popcorn machine.

Cheers,
Chewy Bott

So I went from a know nothing that shouldn't challenge two avs resident geniuses to a rude bastard, eh? Oh well. Can't please everyone at everything. :lol

 

[Chewy]

So I went from a know nothing that shouldn't challenge two avs resident geniuses to a rude bastard, eh? Oh well. Can't please everyone at everything. :lol

I dont recall calling you a bastard but if thats the first thing that pops up in your mind when you are trying to describe yourself, well ok fine :lol

Back to the subway samwich

 

[Shogmaster]

I dont recall calling you a bastard but if thats the first thing that pops up in your mind when you are trying to describe yourself, well ok fine :lol

Back to the subway samwich

Rude bastard and damn proud of it.

 

[Lord Error]

I typically stick to the third option (which you did not name). The actual name escapes me at the moment, but it is my favorite of the three for pretty much all SD content.

The third one is called "Progressive" I think. That one should not be doing any tricks to the picture like the other two, it's the closest to the standard line doubler (except it's not just doubling lines but interpolating, of course)

 

[Chewy]

Blimey, David Bott lurks at GAF! Nice forum you have there sir


I have a question about your 540p/1080i comment.

For videogames, where the output generally is 60 frames per second, probably progressive, what would be the best compromise if your TV can't handle 720p natively?

eg do you output 1080i and potentially suffer interlace and motion artifacts (combing etc), or do you settle for something lower like 480p to keep the progressive frames intact?

1080i would generally be the better compromise as 540p would have probally more trouble being converted to then 1080i as "im sure" the next gen consoles will have some type of scaler built into them to scale to either 720p or 1080i, converting or down sampling to 540p wouldnt really be a huge problem but it would more likely cause more issues since its not "really" a standard hi-def resolution.

1080i upconversion can cause artifacts but then again this all depends on the quality of the tv scaler or even going through a dvd player or reciever scaling to the tv. Again, this all depends on the console itself and/or the tv. Its more trial and error at this point as we are in a transition point and no one seems rooted on a specific resolution. One day i think we all be set on one resolution until then, expect some pain.

 

[stone128]

Yes!

But for the Revolution I would recommend this:

You searched for "old tv" at google, didn't cha?

And you wanted the picture to be bigger in size.

I'm psychic you see

 

[pxleyes]

Haha, really?! I thought you have XS955, or XBR960.

It sucks that 30XS955 is not even sold in Canada, I'd be seriously tempted to get that one instead. But maybe it's better this way. I couldn't see much of a difference in DVD playback picture quality between 30HS420 and 34XS955, but the price difference was very big.

But yeah, when I saw LOTR playing on that 30HS, then looked at some new LCD that was nearby, I couldn't help thinking, "OK, this is ridiculous - this CRT does have better picture quality than that LCD, and is 4x cheaper". Is the slimness and case design worth it? I don't think so.

I am actually trying to decide between these two sets in the next month. Id like anyone's opinion on the non-SFP Sony sets vs. the SFP sets. Unfortunately, only Best Buy has the two sets up and running in town, and they doesn't tell me anything given their shitty split up of signal (and the lack of ATSC on the 30HS). I am asking for anyone's opinion, save Shog's.

To clarify, im debating between the 30HS420 and the 30XS955. The price difference is only about 300 bucks, but if it isn't worth that cash, I'd keep the lower model. I will say this though, the menu system on the XS is FAR superior to the HS.

 

[mrklaw]

For resolution, true, but the LCDs still suck when it comes to black levels / dark colors. I'm not even bothered by LCD refresh rates anymore, but the color fidelity is still unmatched on CRT. I have really good LCD monitor that has black levels better than any other I've ever seen, but still watching night scenes on a show "Lost" made me cringe. Also, again despite that new lamination the monitor has (which is a major plus making it look closer to CRT 'warmth'), the picture still looks somehow more 'raw' compared to the more natural video reproduction on the CRT.

Have you checked out LCD TVs? Only I know my LCD TV is way better for video than my LCD monitor. Viewing angle almost 180 degrees horizontal and 150 vertical, blacks not as good as CRTs, but way better than my PC monitor.

I'm not saying this to you directly, but people shouldn't judge LCD TVs from their experiences with PC monitors.

 

[Lord Error]

pxleyes, ask them to connect a DVD player or even better, HiDef feed to them and show you what it looks like. You're paying a lot, that's the least they can do for you. Ask if they'd let you bring your own DVD player and DVDs even. They actually allowed me to do that when I asked, although I decided not to, after all.

As I've said, I couldn't see much of a difference between 30HS420 and 34XS544 when playing a DVD. There could be more visible difference in HiDef content though.

Have you checked out LCD TVs? Only I know my LCD TV is way better for video than my LCD monitor. Viewing angle almost 180 degrees horizontal and 150 vertical, blacks not as good as CRTs, but way better than my PC monitor.

The monitor I have (SDM-HS95P) has attributes of a LCD TV, like that lamination on the screen, and in general it's color reproduction really is on par with good LCD TVs I've seen. The picture is very vivid, and it doesn't suffer from that 'raw' feel that older LCD monitors have. It's a really good monitor, but for video I don't prefer it. I actually like LCD TVs but those that I really like are too expensive for me (Aquos and new Sony LCDs) and I still don't think they are as good for video and gaming as high-er end CRT.

 

[pxleyes]

pxleyes, ask them to connect a DVD player or even better, HiDef feed to them and show you what it looks like. You're paying a lot, that's the least they can do for you. Ask if they'd let you bring your own DVD player and DVDs even. They actually allowed me to do that when I asked, although I decided not to, after all.

As I've said, I couldn't see much of a difference between 30HS420 and 34XS544 when playing a DVD. There could be more visible difference in HiDef content though.

Ah, ok. good point. I will ask them to do that.

A little different of a question. Does anyone have a listing of recommended TV size for the distance you are viewing the TV at. Like, if your room is 12 feet deep, what is the optimal TV size?

 

[Chewy]

\

Then you also know that Sony's low end TVs - WHICH IS WHAT WE SHOULD BE COMPARING THINGS TO HERE - suffer from terrible reliability and weird computer issues - like confusion over widescreen from consoles (you think your Soul Calibur 720p looks weird on your set, try it on a 32 inch Wega) and that they are slightly overpriced per feature.


But Bott being around is going to be very useful - Bott, tell them that 1080i on a CRT looks GREAT veruss 720p and that they should shut up.

:lol

As for 720p vs 1080i debate, its a never ending saga but quite honestly the diffrence between the two is very indistinguishable, flicker or no flicker. Also the quality of the tv for instance makes it even more indistinguishable like the sony SFP tubes, they do quite a nice job of hiding interlacing.

Over the years ive worked on many hdtv sets and to this day 80% of the time i cant tell the diffrence between the two after a good calibration by me and even before calibration for that matter.

Only thing im sure of is that the 720p vs 1080i debate will live on forever..well until 1080p becomes the standard for most households

 

[Chewy]

Ah, ok. good point. I will ask them to do that.

A little different of a question. Does anyone have a listing of recommended TV size for the distance you are viewing the TV at. Like, if your room is 12 feet deep, what is the optimal TV size?

12 ft away from the tv screen? 50inches plus is mandatory for a true home theater effect.

 

[Chewy]

does anybody know - how does a 720P-signal look upscaled to a 1080P-display?

Pretty darn good i must say though there isnt much 1080p material out there yet, atleast in its native form.

Here's a nice bargin 1080p upscaling dvd player for around 250 http://www.neodigits.com/body/product/HVD2081/feature.asp

Tested this player and its not to shabby for the price and make.


If you get any kind of upscaling dvd player, make sure it as Faroudja chip though

 

[Chewy]

Actually they did. It's rarer, and not quite as good. But it's good.

Yes indeed, i have one sitting in my den.

 

[Shogmaster]

Yes indeed, i have one sitting in my den.

You saying that it does native 720p output? What model?

 

[Truelize]

I think that boat has sailed for CRTs bigger than 24".....

Goodbye, Princeton 3.0HD........

Sony's all do 720p in their CRT tv's.

 

[Shogmaster]

Sony's all do 720p in their CRT tv's.

They accept 720p singals. Does not display 720p natively.

 

[mrklaw]

Ah, ok. good point. I will ask them to do that.

A little different of a question. Does anyone have a listing of recommended TV size for the distance you are viewing the TV at. Like, if your room is 12 feet deep, what is the optimal TV size?

there is a website with a calculator here - I think it was linked to on here once. You put in your screen sizes and it tells you recommended viewing distances

It was for movie viewing though, so gives you SMTP/THX recommendations etc - all about filling your field of vision. Thats very different from playing games, watching a bit of TV though.

Thats why personally I think a Front projector/direct view combination is best. Slightly smaller direct view (rear pro an option) for TV viewing, gaming, casual DVD - then the front projector to fill your field of vision for event gaming or proper movie watching.

 

[The Bookerman]

I inserted Revolution in my thread title cause it's part of my job to have all those consoles .

Since Revolution will have all games with 480i output, I still need a nice little TV for that.

I saw that Toshiba 26" wide screen tv yesterday @ futureshop. It did display a sharper image than say the JVC AV-30W585 (30 inch widescreen HDTV) but I'm affraid what will happen with a game like say Doom 3 or Splinter Cell 3 which displays darker settings...


Anyway thanks for your input.

 

[Jim]

Chewy... is NOT David Bott

The real David Bott has just contacted us, and is quite pissed.

Just a warning

 

[Shogmaster]

:lol :lol :lol

 

[Nerevar]

Chewy... is NOT David Bott

The real David Bott has just contacted us, is quite pissed and ready to take legal action against this imposter.

Just a warning

This thread just hit a 10 on the unintentional comedy scale. :lol

 

[Shogmaster]

This thread just hit a 10 on the unintentional comedy scale. :lol

GAF: We know comedy™ :lol

 

[HokieJoe]

Chewy... is NOT David Bott

The real David Bott has just contacted us, is quite pissed and ready to take legal action against this imposter.

Just a warning

Oh shit.

:lol

I had a feeling.

 

[mrklaw]

Fucking hilarious

Why the hell would you come on GAF and pretend to be David Bott? Thats a really tangential reference that very few people would get. Even funnier that the real one got to hear about it

 

[Bebpo]

I see your point, but I can't say I agree. I actually bought 30HS420, after a lot of research and budget considerations - I should be getting it today, so I'll put it through some loops.

heh, me too kinda I did a bunch of research and budget planning and bought the KD-34XBR960 which I'm expecting delivered either today or tomorrow. Cheers to our new sets ^_^

 

[XMonkey]

Chewy... is NOT David Bott

The real David Bott has just contacted us, is quite pissed and ready to take legal action against this imposter.

Just a warning

I dunno, I was kinda puzzled that he suggested that DVD player. Then I saw this post :lol

 

[seanoff]

Bebpo, i have the service codes for your set if you ever feel like playing with it at that level.

And get yourself a HD source,