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[Heisenberg007]

This has some serious implications.

This means that Series S is the main/default Xbox console from a developer and publisher’s perspective, thus exclusive Xbox games are primarily designed around Series S.

As this gen progresses and games start getting more advanced and with PS5 being the market leader, it means that multiplat games will be primarily designed around PS5, thus there will be some games that will be greatly scaled down for Series S, in terms of enemy count, AI, etc it will look like a different game on Series S and that isn’t ideal seeing as Series S accounts for majority of Xbox players.

Series S is nothing but an albatross for everyone (gamers, developers, publishers and Microsoft)

Absolute terrible strategy by Microsoft. This gen is actually PS5 vs Series S from an industry perspective.

This is intentional and not a surprise.

Microsoft directly said this to Digital Foundry.

The problem started for MS when they realized that PS5 (the standard/base console) is competing directly with Series X (which was supposed to be their premium mid-gen refresh).

 

[Heisenberg007]

Poor DF making all those comparison videos for a console that has maybe 8 million units out there…

Even less. In fact, less than 6 million (25% of 23 million).

 

[Duchess]

thus exclusive Xbox games are primarily designed around Series S.

Not just Xbox games, according to Remedy:

Xbox Series S, the cheaper version of Series X, is being criticized for its low-spec hardware and its impact on game development. According to a Remedy Entertainment developer, the technical limitations of Series S need to be considered from the beginning of game production, limiting what developers can create.

Control Developer Explains Why Xbox Series S Is a Problem for Devs

One of Remedy Entertainment's devs chimes in on the Xbox Series S, explaining why the low-spec console is a problem for the developers.

gamerant.com

 

[odhiex]

I have no doubt that there are more Series S owners compared to Series X's. However, the big gap is a bit surprising to me.

Perhaps, it is relatively easy for new customers to jump into the XBOX ecosystem because of a cheaper product i.e. Series S, I guess

 

[mckmas8808]

This is intentional and not a surprise.

Microsoft directly said this to Digital Foundry.

The problem started for MS when they realized that PS5 (the standard/base console) is competing directly with Series X (which was supposed to be their premium mid-gen refresh).

It makes sense now why MS were talking about their 30% power advantage when comparing Series X vs. PS5. But it's also so wreckless.

 

[sendit]

Not just Xbox games, according to Remedy:

Control Developer Explains Why Xbox Series S Is a Problem for Devs

One of Remedy Entertainment's devs chimes in on the Xbox Series S, explaining why the low-spec console is a problem for the developers.

gamerant.com

That was said at the start of this generation. It's just now becoming a reality. Modern games are hitting hardware limitations. The promised feature parity between the XSX and XSS is about to break, starting with BG3.

 

[mckmas8808]

What was said at the start of this generation. It's just now becoming a reality. Modern games are hitting hardware limitations. The promised feature parity between the XSX and XSS is about to break, starting with BG3.

The PR and narrative for the Xbox brand will suffer if this happens.

 

[DenchDeckard]

The PR and narrative for the Xbox brand will suffer if this happens.

Can it get any worse?

Let's go lower.

They're having a great 2023 so far. Forza motorsport could make it a brilliant year for releases.

2024 needs to do the same and better, hopefully but even then it's still a long road.

 

[Killjoy-NL]

This is intentional and not a surprise.

Microsoft directly said this to Digital Foundry.

The problem started for MS when they realized that PS5 (the standard/base console) is competing directly with Series X (which was supposed to be their premium mid-gen refresh).

They thought they would outplay Playstation right out the gate by catering to casuals and hardcore at the same time, but it played out completely different because Sony launched a Digital Edition, sitting right in the middle of SS and SX pricing, but with comparable performance to SX.

They played themselves.

 

[mckmas8808]

Can it get any worse?

Let's go lower.

They're having a great 2023 so far. Forza motorsport could make it a brilliant year for releases.

2024 needs to do the same and better, hopefully but even then it's still a long road.

Yes! It can definitely get waaay worse. But it's totally up to MS. Sometimes they get into their own way at times. If it's true that starting in the Fall of 2024 MS will stop selling a console with a disc drive, that'll be step one of the death of Xbox as we know it.

 

[Chronicle]

What a shit show at MS. LOL.

Those numbers aren't just 'ouch'. They're OOOOOOOUUUUUUUCCCCCCCHHHHHH!

 

[DenchDeckard]

Yes! It can definitely get waaay worse. But it's totally up to MS. Sometimes they get into their own way at times. If it's true that starting in the Fall of 2024 MS will stop selling a console with a disc drive, that'll be step one of the death of Xbox as we know it.

Isn't Sony stopping selling consoles with a disk drive this year? if rumours are to be believed?

Maybe its just the death of consoles.

 

[YeulEmeralda]

Poor DF making all those comparison videos for a console that has maybe 8 million units out there…

There are people out there benchmarking a 4090 even though only 0.76% has one.

 

[Darsxx82]

US VS the world, so we don't know for sure about it. There is more S consoles than X in the world, but not 3/4 of them probably. Maybe 6/4 ? Microsoft planned for that so it was the plan or at least I think so.

The USA is 60% or more of the XSeries installed base and you can also add the data from Japan where you get the same results every week.

It would be clever to think that in the rest of the world the % is 90-10 which you need for an average of 75-25.

But OK, everything is so as not to break the narrative of the thread

 

[Ozriel]

What do you mean? Which games? BG3 being one of them. And then there are modes that just never come to the Series X due to this parity clause. Halo Infinite being one of those games.

You said games that don’t come to XSX due to the Series S. BG3 doesn’t count since it’s coming to Series X owners this year.

Halo Infinite is cross-gen so blaming the Series S for scrapped split screen when the game is on Xbox One isn’t logical.

So…which ones? We also don’t have any track record of third party devs scrapping modes or visual features on Series X due to the XSS.

 

[Daneel Elijah]

The USA is 60% or more of the XSeries installed base and you can also add the data from Japan where you get the same results every week.

It would be clever to think that in the rest of the world the % is 90-10 which you need for an average of 75-25.

But OK, everything is so as not to break the narrative of the thread

Good start, but then you made me say stuff that I did not say. I may have put words in the wrong order so I will try again. I think that there is more Series S than X sold in the world. It should not be 3/4. I proposed 6/4 . And as Xbox had planned for 6/4 in April I have said that maybe that was the plan? What do you think the ratio is worldwide?

 

[Bernoulli]

Good start, but then you made me say stuff that I did not say. I may have put words in the wrong order so I will try again. I think that there is more Series S than X sold in the world. It should not be 3/4. I proposed 6/4 . And as Xbox had planned for 6/4 in April I have said that maybe that was the plan? What do you think the ratio is worldwide?

in spain

Hardware:

PS5: ~12.000 /
Switch: 3.300 /
XBS: 1.200 /
PSVR2: 100 /


by what i've seen in stores even now the XSS is avaible everywhere, some stores don't even show that there is an X

 

[Daneel Elijah]

in spain

Hardware:

PS5: ~12.000 /
Switch: 3.300 /
XBS: 1.200 /
PSVR2: 100 /


by what i've seen in stores even now the XSS is avaible everywhere, some stores don't even show that there is an X

I think that they abreviate both series consoles in XBS and put both in the number. I may be wrong.

 

[Bernoulli]

I think that they abreviate both series consoles in XBS and put both in the number. I may be wrong.

yes those are both, but at least in physical stores it's almost impossible to find an X

 

[Heisenberg007]

I think that they abreviate both series consoles in XBS and put both in the number. I may be wrong.

They do. XBS stands for XBox Series consoles.

 

[Daneel Elijah]

yes those are both, but at least in physical stores it's almost impossible to find an X

I interpreted your post wrong then. We have quite a few posters talking about it in the last few months. I find it weird because they are still selling millions of Series X so they have to be somewhere right? This holiday season will at least made it clear and I can't see Xbox not being prepared to fix the situation for the best period of the year.

 

[HeWhoWalks]

What a shit show at MS. LOL.

Those numbers aren't just 'ouch'. They're OOOOOOOffffffffffffffffffFFFFFFFFFFFF!

More like that.

 

[Tsaki]

Should have discontinued the white model and announced a £20 permanent price drop to £229 for the black. £299 is a head scratcher.

Increase the BoM and decrease the price at the same time? Launch PS3 would be a smaller loss leader than this.

 

[Tsaki]

They also said they lose more money on the S than the X per unit sold.

I don't think they said that. I'd be happy to be wrong though. More information is good.
The only thing I knew is the $100-$200 loss per unit though they didn't say which SKU is in lower end and which on the higher.

 

[Dr_Ifto]

Seems XBOX buyers didnt want power, they just wanted an improved X1X. Sucks, but it is what it is. Should have just made the XSS like Sony did the digital edition of the PS5. Same specs, just no disk drive.

 

[akaFullmetal]

Wow, that's a bigger break down than I thought. No Microsoft can ditch series s now. Some have said Microsoft might have a shorter gen this time, might happen because they have to.

 

[MisterXDTV]

Seems XBOX buyers didnt want power, they just wanted an improved X1X. Sucks, but it is what it is. Should have just made the XSS like Sony did the digital edition of the PS5. Same specs, just no disk drive.

They couldn't: they created a monster chip with 56 CUs just to reach 12 TF....

Even removing the BD Drive, they couldn't reach PS5 Digital Price

 

[ergem]

Which will be more powerful, Switch 2 or Series S?

 

[FunkMiller]

I don't think there's ever been a console that feels as utterly fucking pointless as the XBox Series X.

Microsoft's strategy to please the lowest common denominator to pad out their profits is one of the worst things to happen to the gaming industry.

 

[MisterXDTV]

Which will be more powerful, Switch 2 or Series S?

Switch 2 is still a portable console... No way it can match Series S

It will be Xbox One/PS4 level

 

[twilo99]

Seems XBOX buyers didnt want power, they just wanted an improved X1X. Sucks, but it is what it is. Should have just made the XSS like Sony did the digital edition of the PS5. Same specs, just no disk drive.

They would’ve had to sell that at a much higher price, which would’ve resulted in even less sales overall. Hitting that $300 price point with a disc less series x is obviously not feasible.

 

[Dr_Ifto]

They would’ve had to sell that at a much higher price, which would’ve resulted in even less sales overall. Hitting that $300 price point with a disc less series x is obviously not feasible.

Could have if they took the hit.

 

[Tsaki]

Honestly didn’t expect this. I thought it was the other way around.

Are there more Digital PS5 sold than Disc PS5?

I remember a report about production numbers and the Digital edition was something like 20%. Though that was not very recent I can't see it be much more than that. This is of course will change when the new PS5 releases

 

[Banjo64]

Increase the BoM and decrease the price at the same time? Launch PS3 would be a smaller loss leader than this.

The BoM decreases over time so increasing the memory still probably results in a cheaper overall unit for MS compared to their launch price in 2020.

 

[midnightAI]

If the prediction of 20M Series X/S sold from a few months ago was true...this means there was roughly only 5M Series X out there? Holy shit...no wonder then can't abandon Series S.

Not only can't abandon it, they'll most likely see it as their main console so they and partners may 'potentially' put less effort into Series X

 

[Tsaki]

The BoM decreases over time so increasing the memory still probably results in a cheaper overall unit for MS compared to their launch price in 2020.

For sure it decreases but Spencer's quote about the dollar loss on hardware was last year around October, two years after the launch. And these consoles have had zero revisions so didn't shave much off the BoM.
Now there is the possibility that Spencer borderline lied in that interview, exacerbating how much they lose on hardware to make his case seem better.

 

[Ozriel]

yes those are both, but at least in physical stores it's almost impossible to find an X

Spencer not being able to work out the production kinks for the XSX at this stage is one reason why I’m leaning towards the “he has to go” side. That and the inability to fix basics like the Windows Store/PC GamePass.

 

[DeepEnigma]

This is intentional and not a surprise.

Microsoft directly said this to Digital Foundry.

The problem started for MS when they realized that PS5 (the standard/base console) is competing directly with Series X (which was supposed to be their premium mid-gen refresh).

Now you see why DF is talking so much shit about the PS5Pro.

They were balls deep into the X1X last gen. If MS never said this, and were making a pro model too, they'd be all like this,

 

[Daneel Elijah]

Spencer not being able to work out the production kinks for the XSX at this stage is one reason why I’m leaning towards the “he has to go” side. That and the inability to fix basics like the Windows Store/PC GamePass.

This is probably one of the few things that outside of the S/X strategy he had no control over. Xbox can't force AMD and TSMC hands, they can't make the consoles cheaper as they are already selling them at a (huge) loss. I agree about the Windows Store. Steam show what people want. It should not be that hard to match that, if Xbox really wanted it.

 

[DeepEnigma]

This is probably one of the few things that outside of the S/X strategy he had no control over. Xbox can't force AMD and TSMC hands, they can't make the consoles cheaper as they are already selling them at a (huge) loss. I agree about the Windows Store. Steam show what people want. It should not be that hard to match that, if Xbox really wanted it.

If Epic can half ass a store that's still far better than the Windows store, then MS surely can. I have a feeling we are going to see a whole new store relaunch sometime next year.

 

[jorgejjvr]

So having a cheap console won't be going anywhere, series S is here to stay for this Gen and likely for next gen

 

[DeepEnigma]

So having a cheap console won't be going anywhere, series S is here to stay for this Gen and likely for next gen

 

[DryvBy]

No wonder Phil doesn't want to lose parity. The core player doesn't buy games and doesn't care about 12Tflops.

 

[jorgejjvr]

No wonder Phil doesn't want to lose parity. The core player doesn't buy games and doesn't care about 12Tflops.

We have to always remember that we are the minority here. I'm the only one with a series X, my friends got an S. Most people aren't enthusiast

 

[Moriarty1889]

Most of this is because of the better availability of the S since launch as well as the lower price point.

 

[Heisenberg007]

Spencer not being able to work out the production kinks for the XSX at this stage is one reason why I’m leaning towards the “he has to go” side. That and the inability to fix basics like the Windows Store/PC GamePass.

In my opinion, it's not like he "can't do it." I think this is just their strategy -- to sell Series S as much as possible. And use the Series X to populate the xCloud server blades.

I think there are just several reasons why Microsoft would want to sell more Series S over X:

• It is possible that selling a Series S is more profitable (relatively) than selling a Series X.
• Series S is digital, meaning a higher revenue potential down the road.
• If more people become acclimatized with an all-digital Series S, Microsoft will have an easier time when they release the all-digital Series S and Series X in 2024.
• Selling more Series S will allow them to populate the xCloud server blades with Series S -- maybe in preparation for ABK games. Also, their goal is to get to 100 million GP subscribers "off console". So they will need a lot of xCloud servers for that to happen.
• Besides, they did make Series S as their standard console to go against the PS5. And Series X was supposed to be their "mid-gen refresh." So it makes sense for them to sell Series S now and then push Series X when the PS5 Pro releases.

(Wait a second ... did I just defend Phil Spencer?!)

 

[DeepEnigma]

Most of this is because of the better availability of the S since launch as well as the lower price point.

By design

 

[twilo99]

Most of this is because of the better availability of the S since launch as well as the lower price point.

It’s mostly the lower price point, they can’t compete with Sony on equal pricing.

 

[twilo99]

Could have if they took the hit.

Of course, but they need the cash for that Activision deal lol

Nah but they would be a big gap to swallow, I’m sure it was considered before they decided on a less powerful SKU

 

[John Wick]

DF need to stop doing their PS5 vs XSX/XSS analysis as its pointless. Just stick to PS5 vs XSS as only 4 people own an XSX lol